Salt Lake City Guitars

[c-man]

OK, Josh and guitarfool Craig (and anyone else who cares to), how many (and what kind of) guitars do you hear on "Salt Lake City"?  I've gone back & forth over the years on whether it's one or two 6-string basses playing the intro...in my website essay, I wrote that it's Carol Kaye playing a Dano and Jerry Cole playing a Fender VI (based on Jerry's claim to have owned the very first VI in L.A.), but I'm really not sure.  It could be just Carol...I got out my Dano 6-string bass tonight, and played along...it's fairly easy to play both intro parts (the melody and the fourth above it) on either the A and D strings at the 13th fret, or on the D and G strings at the 8th fret.  But...listening to the session on the SOT U.M. boot, there's a couple of times where it REALLY sounds like two instruments...I know the slapback tape delay & the echo can influence that, but if you have that disc handy, listen to the start of Take 2 (Track 2 at 1:36) and see if it doesn't sound like two completely different instruments...and at the start of Take 4 (Track 3 at 0:13), Brian stops the take because "the bass wasn't quite with you, Carol"...implying someone was playing with her, on a "bass" (probably a Fender...Brian refers to Carol's instrument, obviously a Dano, as a "guitar" on this session).  He's definitely not referring to Lyle's upright, because that instrument is tacet until after the intro, and besides that, it's on a different track, where it's quite discrete.  Just to throw a monkey wrench into the mix, on Take 7 (Track 3 at 2:04) Brian stops the intro because it's "little bit out of sync there", and adds "Carl broke his cigarette over his G string"...implying the other instrument (standard 4-string Fender bass or a Fender VI) may be played by Carl (from the control booth)!

But what of the other guitars, heard in the center channel with Lyle's upright bass?  One of them has a pretty "dark" tone, implying it's a Baritone...and the "lighter" sounding one, that comes in later, sounds exactly like Carl's classic '60s rhythm guitar sound, playing 8th notes straight though...I used to think it's a 12-string, but now I'm pretty sure it's a 6-string.  But is there a THIRD guitar in there?  Between takes, someone's fooling around with choppy upstrokes on a triad chord, on the 1 and 3 beats...it MIGHT be there during takes, too, but it kinda gets buried.  I don't think it's the "Carl" guitar, as that one is quite a bit "back" in the mix, while the choppy one sounds much more "upfront". 

Thoughts, scholars?

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I'll have to dig out the session and do some listening.  I've always thought: two basses in the intro.  But I'll listen with new ears.

[c-man]

I'll have to dig out the session and do some listening.  I've always thought: two basses in the intro.  But I'll listen with new ears.

Yeah, I really figure it's gotta be two basses...my final answer!...and once again, I think they're both 6-string basses!...the dominant one (Carol Kaye) sounds way to "flimsy" to be a regular 4-string...and the supporting one sounds to be in way too high of a register for it to reasonably be a regular 4-string.

[zachrwolfe]

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[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I'll have to dig out the session and do some listening.  I've always thought: two basses in the intro.  But I'll listen with new ears.

Yeah, I really figure it's gotta be two basses...my final answer!...and once again, I think they're both 6-string basses!...the dominant one (Carol Kaye) sounds way to "flimsy" to be a regular 4-string...and the supporting one sounds to be in way too high of a register for it to reasonably be a regular 4-string.

And I agree.  I still am sort of skeptical that one is a Fender VI, though.  It's one of those frustrating questions that we can just never know the answer to.  Plenty of those questions...enough to make you lose it.

[guitarfool2002]

Before I post more on this topic, after listening to the sessions with headphones last night before falling asleep (so the later takes are a bit hazy...  ), I wanted to clarify something:

Is there some kind of evidence that Carol is playing anything other than her usual Fender bass on that session, or is it based on what it sounds like from the sessions themselves? because I don't hear anything on that which would suggest she was playing something other than the usual P-Bass with a pick, and the muting combined with the slap echo and chamber reverb, plus notes played in the upper register of the neck, creates that signature 1965-66 "Beach Boys sound" on the bass. It wasn't Carol, but it's nearly the same sound as on "Here Today" a year later, and similar to those other sessions Carol did with that same setup and same signal processing from Chuck Britz (or whoever).

I *do* hear two instruments playing those lines, on SOT both panned hard to one side. And I also hear what i think is a six-string bass/baritone chugging along panned in the center, playing either low support notes or "power chord" forms to enhance the rhythm, in a steady chugging rhythm based on 8th notes - classic Brian. That I believe is the 6 string bass/baritone, whether it was a Fender Bass VI or a Danelectro.

The Danelectro was much more common in studio use, keep in mind, because they could be modified and "tweaked" through replacing the bridge so they'd intonate and stay in tune better...while the Bass VI had a tremolo bridge like it's cousin the Jaguar which could be more unstable. That's not saying a Fender isn't on Salt Lake City, but the Danelectro was far more common.

Last point I want to ask: On the part we're discussing, the one with two parts panned hard to one channel: Are there any notes played which would fall outside the uppermost ranges of a normal Fender bass to suggest Carol was playing something else, or were there any notes in the supporting (non-slapback) part below those of a standard guitar to suggest something else?

[guitarfool2002]

And yes, I also hear the "Carl guitar" sounding as if it were going direct into the board and played from the booth. And yes, I also hear yet another guitar thrown into the mix somewhere...and not entirely convinced one of those in that blend isn't a 12-string, it sounds again like the stereotypical Brian guitar sound from '65/'66 which often had that 12-string electric playing exactly that way. But it is hard to tell.

I realize I repeated a lot of what c-man already posted, but I wanted to put my first impressions out there as well to compare and contrast, especially on things like the range of the bass and guitar: The question is more like what are the actual notes compared to the range versus what the notes sound like they are compared to the range.

[c-man]

I'm figuring it's a 6-string bass (with thinner-guage strings than a regular bass) based on the sound it makes, versus the actual notes...lots of fret buzz at times between takes, and it just "sounds" like a thinner-guage string.  I played along with my Dano, which is set up with 24-84 gauge strings and tuned one full octave below a normal guitar, and got the exact same sound. 

I think the "dark" sounding guitar in the middle channel playing the 8th-note rhythm part on the E and A strings is a Baritone, rather than a 6-string bass...meaning, probably a Dano set up with 14-68 gauge strings and tuned one fourth below concert pitch, the way I have my other Dano set up.

[guitarfool2002]

I'm figuring it's a 6-string bass (with thinner-guage strings than a regular bass) based on the sound it makes, versus the actual notes...lots of fret buzz at times between takes, and it just "sounds" like a thinner-guage string.  I played along with my Dano, which is set up with 24-84 gauge strings and tuned one full octave below a normal guitar, and got the exact same sound. 

I think the "dark" sounding guitar in the middle channel playing the 8th-note rhythm part on the E and A strings is a Baritone, rather than a 6-string bass...meaning, probably a Dano set up with 14-68 gauge strings and tuned one fourth below concert pitch, the way I have my other Dano set up.

I definitely agree the middle channel guitar is a baritone tuning (I call them all 6-string basses, old fashioned that way  ), in fact I'm almost positive for the same reasons you mentioned: I have a Danelectro baritone which I also tune either A-to-A or B-to-B depending on the song, and it's that similar tone. This could probably be Jerry Cole playing that part?

I just have a hard time getting past the fact that it's Carol definitely playing that main slapback-ed part, and if it's a case of probability short of hard proof I'd guess on the side of history she's playing regular Fender bass, but again we'll agree to disagree short of hard evidence. It's really tough to tell - if the part didn't sound so close to numerous other 65-66 Brian sessions using standard Fender bass, I'd say maybe that day Carol used a 6-string bass rather than 4. Tough call for me to make, I just hear it as a standard picked bass with Brian's usual effects applied.

I had a thought that the fret buzz may be the result of the way they recorded it - I'm thinking of how they overloaded then EQ'ed and squashed the heck out of George Harrison's strat solo on "Nowhere Man", and you hear more of the string noise and buzzing than on any normally recorded track - all those remnants came jumping out with the extreme EQ and limiting applied. His strings sounded a bit floppy or loose too with fret noise and buzz, but that was that famous Sonic Blue standard Strat tuned E-to-E on that solo. Just a wild thought...same general era.

[DonnyL]

my 0.02 is basically with Guitarfool Craig on this one ... the beginning sounds like a Precision to me.

I'll go against the grain here and say I think it's being played by one person (Carol). There's a flub in there that just makes it sound like it was a single player. I hear a 12-string electric also, and that lower 'dark'/chunky part, though I'm not sure if it's a baritone or a telecaster. I would guess Carl is maybe playing the 12 from the booth?

I don't think whether or not it's a Dano or Precision can really be known just by listening ... though one thing to keep in mind is that the Dano would have likely been strung with roundwounds, creating a bouncier sound, while the Precision would have been with flats. But Brian tells Carol to turn the highs on for one part, etc ... I think the amp was dialed in with a really bright sound, which would contribute to the buzz and thin-ness. Just thought of this though ... on a Bass VI, you can actually flip a switch to create a thin, trebly sound ... you can't really do that on a Dano or Precision. But still, I think Brian was just using generic terms, like 'turn the highs off on your guitar' could be 'roll off the treble knob on your bass guitar'.

BUT truthfully, I don't think it's likely a Fender Bass VI would have been used on many Beach Boys sessions, if at all.

[Generation42]

This might be the most naïve thing I've said in awhile (though I ask it in all sincerity), but why not ask Brian?

Crazy, right?  But I'm serious.  There are people here who are in touch with the guy.  Take a shot and see if he cares to answer a few intelligent questions about the minutiae of his craft?  Maybe he'll surprise us?

Oh, and that goes for other questions like this, too.  Do we know with absolute certainty what was played during the intro to "Wouldn't it be Nice," for example?

[zachrwolfe]

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[Joshilyn Hoisington]

This might be the most naïve thing I've said in awhile (though I ask it in all sincerity), but why not ask Brian?

Crazy, right?  But I'm serious.  There are people here who are in touch with the guy.  Take a shot and see if he cares to answer a few intelligent questions about the minutiae of his craft?  Maybe he'll surprise us?

Oh, and that goes for other questions like this, too.  Do we know with absolute certainty what was played during the intro to "Wouldn't it be Nice," for example?

I think Brian remembers just fine, he just doesn't and can't comprehend the level of our interest in these things.  It's like, if somebody asked me what gloves I wore when I worked in the garden center at the local Meijer, I remember just fine, I just couldn't fathom why they'd care.

[Generation42]

I think Brian remembers just fine, he just doesn't and can't comprehend the level of our interest in these things.  It's like, if somebody asked me what gloves I wore when I worked in the garden center at the local Meijer, I remember just fine, I just couldn't fathom why they'd care.

See, this is what I figured, but at the same time, questions like this would be little different than Brian might be asked during, say, an interview for Guitar World, so I thought, well, maybe it's not such a ridiculous thing?

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

It's been attempted, although imperfectly.  Somebody asked Brian about the bass situation on GOK on his messageboard once and he just sort of agreed with what the asker asked.

Best case scenario, you get a sympathetic interviewer in the studio with Brian at the piano, and the interviewer brings in instruments and gets Brian going.  I could see that working.  Just being in the studio with some props might help.  You get out a Fender bass and just start noodling and then break into the Salt Lake City into and be like "Am I playing this right, Brian?"

[guitarfool2002]

I hope this doesn't come out sounding the wrong way, but in all honesty in some of these minute detail matters, folks on this board may be a better source of info than the actual sources, at least in some cases.

That's in no way a slight, a critique, or anything else, but especially with this band and the principal players, even having the recording playing or mentioned specifically during such a Q+A session has produced as much info which is incorrect, or a little "off", as it has those really revelatory answers. It's that way with most bands and artists from the 60's, with some exceptions: The artists themselves often know less of the details than the fans asking the questions.

I use it all the time as an example, but for a reference point check out that thing they did with the three surviving Beatles in Anthology, where they can't agree to disagree about various events they're being asked about. The three guys who were actually *there* and lived it couldn't agree on one answer. It's funny, but it illustrates the point above. Some obsessive fan/collector at any random "Beatlefest" convention could very well know more than an actual Beatle.

But it never hurts to ask anyway, you never know what may come out.

Or you may get yet another "I burned the tapes" answer, or a question about recording details of "Caroline, No" is answered instead by Brian insisting the title is "Carol, I Know" before changing the topic. 

[Generation42]

I don't think that it came out the wrong way, and I think you, Zach and H have all made good points.

I guess I just figured that as long as the key players in a given situation are still around, and there's a chance at access, then what the hell, maybe it wouldn't hurt to ask.  And has been said, you catch a guy on a good day and who knows where it might lead?  You might wind up having a really cool time and getting some mysteries solved in the process.

But hey, I did admit it was probably pretty naïve of me to mention it 

[guitarfool2002]

I don't think that it came out the wrong way, and I think you, Zach and H have all made good points.

I guess I just figured that as long as the key players in a given situation are still around, and there's a chance at access, then what the hell, maybe it wouldn't hurt to ask.  And has been said, you catch a guy on a good day and who knows where it might lead?  You might wind up having a really cool time and getting some mysteries solved in the process.

But hey, I did admit it was probably pretty naïve of me to mention it 

Not at all! The main point is that it doesn't hurt to ask if given the opportunity, but unfortunately the answers we might get out of them are such a mixed bag, sometimes it becomes a case of the fanbase having to sort it out.

I always found that unfortunate, it's not exclusive to Beach Boys stuff but it seems to fall on them more often. You'll have someone who was there answer a question which turns out to be factually inaccurate (or just plain wrong), and the credibility of everything else that they say gets questioned. So some good info may slip through the cracks because someone didn't remember or said something which wasn't accurate.

Kind of like asking Al Jardine about Smile: He's a Beach Boy, yes he was there, but someone like Michael Vosse saw *much*, let me repeat *much* more of what was happening day-to-day with Brian than Al, or Bruce, or even Mike, yet if Al drops a line in an interview about Smile, that's the ultimate source? It's such a weird scene overall. We know for a fact there are specific posters on this board who have spoken with more of the behind-the-scenes players looking for information than Al or Bruce would have had contact with back in 66-67.

[c-man]

I know exactly what you mean, guitarfoolCraig.  On "Anthology", George said Paul probably overdubbed the bass on "Golden Slumbers", when in fact it was George himself who played bass on the basic track!  That's a great example of someone not only being there in the room when the session happened, but also actually playing the instrument himself, and not even remember that a few decades later!

Beach Boy-wise, everyone who knew Carl says what a shame it is that he isn't around, aside from just missing him as a person and a great musician/voice, because he would remember a lot of the minute details...but I'm not so sure about that...I think Carl would be just as prone to "hazy memoryitis" as the others...I can think of three case in points...there's the early '74 interview he did with the English guy for Old Grey Whistle Test...he was trying to remember when the recent live album was recorded, and he kept changing his mind as to how many months ago they recorded the shows that were used.  And when he and Bruce sat down for an interview with Time Barrier Express in '79, he stated the track to "Good Timin'" was maybe a year, or year-and-a-half old, whereas we know it was more like five years old at that point.  And finally, he stated to Geoffrey Himes (for the 1983 Musician article) that the intro to "California Girls" was played by himself and Ray Pohlman...but it was actually himself and Jerry Cole.  I'm not saying Carl's memory was any faultier than the other guys, but after so many years and so many gigs and so many sessions, I'm sure certain details start to blur.

[c-man]

So, back to the point...setting aside for now the issue of what kind of instrument Carol Kaye played on that intro, what kind of instrument do you think is playing the fourth-interval counterpoint on that riff?  Fender bass?  Regular guitar?  Or something else?

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I think the best thing to do is assume that whatever it is is the most standard instrument possible unless it can't be.  Occam's razor, in a sense.

So, is there any reason it couldn't be a Fender bass?

[guitarfool2002]

So, back to the point...setting aside for now the issue of what kind of instrument Carol Kaye played on that intro, what kind of instrument do you think is playing the fourth-interval counterpoint on that riff?  Fender bass?  Regular guitar?  Or something else?

I didn't want to leave this thread hanging: If history and what would have been standard practice in these LA studios and with these musicians would be the reference point, I'd have to guess a regular guitar, and beyond that more than likely a Telecaster. That seemed to be what so many sessions had going on, including some on Pet Sounds. I'm thinking specifically of that amazing 3-guitar, 1-bass blend they had going on those Jackson 5 sessions like "I Want You Back", where Don Peake was mostly on his lower four strings doubling Wilton Felder's electric bass, as the other two guitars covered both the middle and higher register parts. And the Telecaster Peake played never sounded like the tic-tac sound and instead blended in with the Fender bass, with the warmer tone he had dialed in.

It's a case of that combination being used often enough in LA studios from 63-69 that I'd almost err on the side of history and common practice by guessing that's what we're hearing.

But this is an awesome thread because it showed that it is really difficult to be precise in identifying exactly what's going on, and this is before Pet Sounds which suggests Brian was wielding that sharp of a sonic sword earlier than perhaps a lot of people would assume, thinking it started with Little Girl and blossomed on Pet Sounds.