Record company archival policy

[Roger Ryan]

...Somehow I thought that the 131 minute version was finished before Welles went to Brazil and shown for the test audience and that he made the cuts that he did from Brazil in order to save the rest of the film, as the test screening had gone poorly and as the new head of RKO was much more hostile to him than the previous one had been...

The first 148 min. rough assembly wasn't fully put together until after Welles left for South America. He and Robert Wise worked out the much more polished 131 min. edit via telegrams and phone conversations. Welles had not even seen the 131 minute version before he requested the big chunk from the middle be taken out and this request came about a week before the first preview. In fairness, Welles was under the impression he could continue to tinker with different editorial ideas and I don't think he even knew which edits were screened during the previews until informed about it a few days later. Anyway, documents show that Welles' business manager Jack Moss was the chief architect of the extensively reworked release version; he was vocal about making changes even before the previews and later pushed through his ideas with Wise while largely ignoring Welles' long distance input. Welles' absence throughout virtually the entire post-production process did result in something positive: because he was making editorial choices from afar, he had the studio send him dozens of frame enlargements taken directly from the footage so he could better visualize how shots could go together. Those frame enlargements survived so, at least, we have a visual reference for almost all of the footage that was cut (including shots/scenes eliminated from the initial rough assembly).

If there is an unreleased Welles film that resembles Smile, it's probably his Don Quixote film, which was a long-running project that he shot over a period of more than a decade.  There don't appear to be the same rights issues as with The Other Side of the Wind because snippets have been shown at festivals and on television before, and there was even a Spanish DVD release (that Jonathan Rosenbaum claims is awful...) but no one is sure how the film was meant to be edited together as Welles probably hadn't planned it out yet.

The problem with DON QUIXOTE is that Welles was constantly rethinking what the film should be and, because he was funding it himself, was under no obligation to do more than tinker as he pleased. There are a handful of really good scenes, but it's nowhere near as complete as THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND in terms of footage shot. The released "finished" version of QUIXOTE put together by Jess Franco is, indeed, awful and a complete waste of time; watching the silent rushes of the unedited material is much more rewarding.

[seltaeb1012002]

I'm quite sure I've read that Do it Again's multitrack was lost during the assembly of Stack of Tracks.

I think it was the original stereo mix that was lost.

Somehow the SOT guys got the multi's. So if it's not in the vault, someone has to have it.

I hate to be one of those 'search the archives' guys, but really ...

this story has been told so many times (including quite recently, like less than a month ago). I feel like I have personally told it like 4-5 times, and it's in the Desper thread too !

maybe we need some kind of database of info !

Christ dude, ok.

Yes, we did discuss this not too long ago. Still doesn't explain the "lost master tape" showing up on SOT. Forgive me if that was in fact explained. Apparently my memory is not as on point as yours.

A master and a session tape aren't the same thing.

If it was just a session tape, wouldn't there be outtakes? False starts, random talking between takes etc, which is the whole point of having a session tape run, to capture stuff that the master tape doesn't have? Sounds like they're playing back different tracks from an 8 track master to me.

Either way, fact is ALL of the isolated elements exist on whatever that tape is. (Even I was able to isolate them!..)

I also don't know where the story of the tape lost during Stack-O-Tracks came from, whether it is a known fact or just assumed.

Alright then, so why did you feel the need to get on my case? Essentially what you're saying is that you know as much as I do on the subject. I respect your knowledge and dig your posts (and hey weren't we just working together to try to get a cleaner sounding copy of the Spring promo?), but I really don't appreciate how you responded towards me.

I apologize.

I'm not really interested in who knows more about what (hey, you may very well know more than me about this topic), but I clarified my concern in my previous post.

The information I'm not sure about is where the 'Stack-O-Tracks' story comes from. It's one of those that have been going around for a long time, pre-internet I believe.

More info from the archives:

Let's not forget "Do It Again".  If I understand correctly, it's because the processing of the snare drum was done when the mono mastering was done.

You may be right. But if the track is  available unmixed without the snare sounds, it should be pretty easy to redo the effect. Of course some may not like the idea of that, but I'd encourage them to try.

No, the processed snare drum sound is an actual overdub (played by John Guerin), and it may in fact have been added during the mono mixdown (not sure, though).  If this is true, then it would be impossible to duplicate on a new stereo mix. 

This is not meant to be me stirring the pot. I understand it might be hard to fathom. I heard it was actually the multitrack master that was happily removed from the situation (read: erased) by a bitter Brian as an attempt to keep them from having another hit. Steve Desper had made a safety copy of the master tape during production of Stack-O-Tracks of which Brian apparently was not aware, hence the song's appearance on 45 and then 20/20.

Oddly enough, "Do It Again" was one of the 8 track masters they de-constructed on the Sea of Tunes bootleg series, with all of the various overdubs (new drum track, vocals, etc) highlighted on the bootleg.  A true stereo mix would definitely be possible.... if we only had that master tape.  It's now missing.  Argh.

FYI - the processing on Mike's lead vocal is actually printed to tape on the original four track master that was later transferred to 8 track for further overdubbing, so there was no way to avoid it in the final mixdown of the song without having Mike redo the vocal from scratch.  It rather sounds as if they spliced (or "flew") in the words "do it again" to replace "surf again" on the final verse, perhaps copying it from the first verse?

... so Alan Boyd says it was indeed 'lost' in '84, and C-Man mentioned that the snare was an overdub, possibly added during the mono mix. Then there is the rumor that BW erased the 8-track master, or that it was lost during Stack O Tracks.

My hunch is the 8-track master used on Sea of Tunes is not the actual multi-track ... because there are processed elements on the Stack O Tracks version that I highly doubt were created during that instrumental mix -- the overdubbed snare is present on 'Stack', which means it was not added during the original mix, it was on the multi ... yet it is not on the multi that the SOT people had. I'm theorizing that the SOT 8-track was copied to another 8-track or 4-track tape, where some final elements were added, and that was lost (or erased by Brian ?!?) at some point.

All good. Nice work digging up that info.

I just loaded up the session I made with the isolated elements and A/B'd it with the final mix.

Could it be possible that the overdub by John Guerin is the new drum track, and not just a snare? I'm having a hard time hearing a 3rd snare in the final mix. The only flam action I'm hearing is between the new drum track + the old one (which, incidentally, is the only element that can't easily be isolated from the SOT tracks - but I'm pretty sure from the way it's laid out, it would have its' own track on the master.)

For the life of me I'm not hearing any additional elements, though I certainly could be wrong.  Either way, I guess it's irrelevant until the SOT guys decide to turn over the tape.

In the meantime, based on what I was able to do, I'd imagine Derry Fitzgerald might be able to work some magic w/the SOT material and get damn close to recreating the master tape. I'm still flipping out over how he was able to isolate the different harmony stacks on Good Vibrations!

[DonnyL]

hmm ... i don't work in digital audio, so I haven't played around with the SOT stuff or anything ... that special, weird delay that Desper did is not on the SOT multis though, right? The thing is, the effect is present on 'Stack O Tracks', and it seems really unlikely that it was re-created specifically in preparation for 'Stack' ... but maybe it was, since Desper was involved with that release. Which might mean that there is a multi (either 4 or 8-track) where this is present, which I'm thinking might be the final multi-track master in question.

it certainly is possible that there is not a distinct snare overdub I'm sure ... maybe we should ask Desper, or if C-Man is reading this, perhaps he can clarify from the info he has. I'm assuming he has a session log that shows some type of drum overdub.

the original track 'Rendezvous' is a 4-track recording with very minimal drums submixed very low (this is the track where Mike sings '... surf again' instead of 'do it again'). This 4-track tape was transferred to 8-track, where they overdubbed another drum track and a bunch else. I'm guessing that this 8-track tape was transferred to another 8 or 4-track tape for some extra sweetening (perhaps just effects) before the final mix.

but, if the drum delay effect is present on the SOT tapes, then my theories are pure trash, and the SOT people probably had the final master !

[seltaeb1012002]

hmm ... i don't work in digital audio, so I haven't played around with the SOT stuff or anything ... that special, weird delay that Desper did is not on the SOT multis though, right? The thing is, the effect is present on 'Stack O Tracks', and it seems really unlikely that it was re-created specifically in preparation for 'Stack' ... but maybe it was, since Desper was involved with that release. Which might mean that there is a multi (either 4 or where this is present, which I'm thinking might be the final multi-track master in question.

it certainly is possible that there is not a distinct snare overdub I'm sure ... maybe we should ask Desper, or if C-Man is reading this, perhaps he can clarify from the info he has. I'm assuming he has a session log that shows some type of drum overdub.

the original track 'Rendezvous' is a 4-track recording with very minimal drums submixed very low (this is the track where Mike sings '... surf again' instead of 'do it again'). This 4-track tape was transferred to 8-track, where they overdubbed another drum track and a bunch else. I'm guessing that this 8-track tape was transferred to another 8 or 4-track tape for some extra sweetening (perhaps just effects) before the final mix.

but, if the drum delay effect is present on the SOT tapes, then my theories are pure trash, and the SOT people probably had the final master !

No, your theory is not trash at all. That's a great point. The drums are dry on SOT - the only audible hole I can discern. Was creating a new master tape just for effects common back then? Makes sense to ease the load on the final mixdown. The only other thing I could think of is that maybe they made an instrumental mix at the same session that yielded the final mix. And yeah, would definitely love to hear C-Man & Desper weigh in if they see this!

[DonnyL]

hmm ... i don't work in digital audio, so I haven't played around with the SOT stuff or anything ... that special, weird delay that Desper did is not on the SOT multis though, right? The thing is, the effect is present on 'Stack O Tracks', and it seems really unlikely that it was re-created specifically in preparation for 'Stack' ... but maybe it was, since Desper was involved with that release. Which might mean that there is a multi (either 4 or where this is present, which I'm thinking might be the final multi-track master in question.

it certainly is possible that there is not a distinct snare overdub I'm sure ... maybe we should ask Desper, or if C-Man is reading this, perhaps he can clarify from the info he has. I'm assuming he has a session log that shows some type of drum overdub.

the original track 'Rendezvous' is a 4-track recording with very minimal drums submixed very low (this is the track where Mike sings '... surf again' instead of 'do it again'). This 4-track tape was transferred to 8-track, where they overdubbed another drum track and a bunch else. I'm guessing that this 8-track tape was transferred to another 8 or 4-track tape for some extra sweetening (perhaps just effects) before the final mix.

but, if the drum delay effect is present on the SOT tapes, then my theories are pure trash, and the SOT people probably had the final master !

No, your theory is not trash at all. That's a great point. The drums are dry on SOT - the only audible hole I can discern. Was creating a new master tape just for effects common back then? Makes sense to ease the load on the final mixdown. The only other thing I could think of is that maybe they made an instrumental mix at the same session that yielded the final mix. And yeah, would definitely love to hear C-Man & Desper weigh in if they see this!

No, it was not common to go to another multi just for effects. But Desper and Carl were very experimental and innovative during this period. In any case, I doubt they would have done it just for effects. More likely is that there are more elements there that are not clearly audible ... i.e. doubling of parts, extra backing vocals, an extra organ, etc. Or another theory ... Desper has noted in the past that 'Stack' was the first album he worked on, so it IS possible that he created the effect again when preparing 'Stack', but this also seems less likely. Making an instrumental mix the same night as the final is possible but wouldn't have been typical either.

My best guess is that the SOT 8-track was not the final master, perhaps it was an earlier (nearly finished) safety copy, made before the final bounces, etc. were done. How many discrete elements are present on the files you mixed from? 6, 7, 8 ?

Anyway, I think the story about Capitol losing the tape has been around since the '70s. I think they went back to do a stereo remix for '20/20' and couldn't do it because the tape was missing. Otherwise, they probably would have instead of releasing that fold-down, duophonic mess !

[seltaeb1012002]

hmm ... i don't work in digital audio, so I haven't played around with the SOT stuff or anything ... that special, weird delay that Desper did is not on the SOT multis though, right? The thing is, the effect is present on 'Stack O Tracks', and it seems really unlikely that it was re-created specifically in preparation for 'Stack' ... but maybe it was, since Desper was involved with that release. Which might mean that there is a multi (either 4 or where this is present, which I'm thinking might be the final multi-track master in question.

it certainly is possible that there is not a distinct snare overdub I'm sure ... maybe we should ask Desper, or if C-Man is reading this, perhaps he can clarify from the info he has. I'm assuming he has a session log that shows some type of drum overdub.

the original track 'Rendezvous' is a 4-track recording with very minimal drums submixed very low (this is the track where Mike sings '... surf again' instead of 'do it again'). This 4-track tape was transferred to 8-track, where they overdubbed another drum track and a bunch else. I'm guessing that this 8-track tape was transferred to another 8 or 4-track tape for some extra sweetening (perhaps just effects) before the final mix.

but, if the drum delay effect is present on the SOT tapes, then my theories are pure trash, and the SOT people probably had the final master !

No, your theory is not trash at all. That's a great point. The drums are dry on SOT - the only audible hole I can discern. Was creating a new master tape just for effects common back then? Makes sense to ease the load on the final mixdown. The only other thing I could think of is that maybe they made an instrumental mix at the same session that yielded the final mix. And yeah, would definitely love to hear C-Man & Desper weigh in if they see this!

No, it was not common to go to another multi just for effects. But Desper and Carl were very experimental and innovative during this period. In any case, I doubt they would have done it just for effects. More likely is that there are more elements there that are not clearly audible ... i.e. doubling of parts, extra backing vocals, an extra organ, etc. Or another theory ... Desper has noted in the past that 'Stack' was the first album he worked on, so it IS possible that he created the effect again when preparing 'Stack', but this also seems less likely. Making an instrumental mix the same night as the final is possible but wouldn't have been typical either.

My best guess is that the SOT 8-track was not the final master, perhaps it was an earlier (nearly finished) safety copy, made before the final bounces, etc. were done. How many discrete elements are present on the files you mixed from? 6, 7, 8 ?

Anyway, I think the story about Capitol losing the tape has been around since the '70s. I think they went back to do a stereo remix for '20/20' and couldn't do it because the tape was missing. Otherwise, they probably would have instead of releasing that fold-down, duophonic mess !

Yeah, I think you're right. Just A/B'd Stack-O-Tracks vs. Final Mix and the levels are too drastically different for it to have been done at the same session. Unless, like you said, maybe Desper re-created the effect which is pretty unlikely, but not impossible.

As far as discrete tracks.. the way the SOT people mixed it is kinda all over the place, and then I did some further unorganizing, but here's what I'm thinking:

1) Drums (in this case, they mixed the drums dead center over almost all of the instruments unfortunately - so in my mix I just went with their mono track for the majority, and applied the delay effect to EVERYTHING for certain spots - which clearly wasn't what happened on the final mix)
2) Guitar  (comes in on the 2nd verse) + maybe guitar solo
3) Lead Vocal 1 + Dit Dit Dit's 1
4) Lead Vocal 2 + Dit Dit Dit's 2
5) Brian "Bomp Bomp Bomp" - they had both overdubs on one track for this one, so maybe it was bounced on the master

all of the vocals can be (and probably were originally) squeezed onto those 3 tracks, so, 6-7-8 I guess would be something like:

6) Original guitar/organ/bass from Rendezvous
7) Original drums from Rendezvous
Sax / Organ / Handclap overdubs

Mind you, they had the broken down Rendezvous tracks on SOT as well so it's possible that I pulled some stuff from there.

[DonnyL]

right, so if there is processing on the orig. mix of discrete drum elements that are not present on the SOT mix, then it's a later overdub ... and the SOT mix was just a working (likely safety) copy of the multi, not the final. keep in mind, they would have probably left an open track or two and done some additional bouncing for those last overdubs. I also think there was some subtle sweetening or doubling of parts on the final that is not present on the SOT (like BW's 'bomp bomp' part).