Smile Tracks on GV Box Set

[Andy B]

Hello all. I haven't been round here for ages. Used to post sporadically, now and again, but sort of drifted away from the whole Beach Boys Smile thing. Now for whatever reason the music is hitting me hard, so thought i'd pay a visit and set a thread in motion.

So hoping you can help me out here.

The Smile tracks that were officially released on the Good Vibrations Box Set were i think from a mixture of sources (not sure why this is suddenly important to me, but it is!!). The question is what were the sources? I mean i understand the Heroes & Villains (alternate version) was from a safety tape of a Brian mix. But is Wonderful from a proper master tape, and is Wind Chimes an original Brian mix? And the same goes for the other tracks. Prayer, Love To Say Dada, and so on. How much is original Brian work, and how much remixed for the box set. No doubt this has been covered before, but hey ho!

[Roger Ryan]

I think many of the tracks were remixed (or rather mixed for the first time) for the box set. This is true for "Vegetables", "Heroes & Villains (Segments)", "I Love To Say Dada", "Do You Like Worms?" and, I think, "Wonderful". "Wind Chimes" was edited together from different segments found on the same tape reel (the order on the reel implied that the segments should be edited in the manner they were).

[buddhahat]

What I'd like to know is, are there Brian mixes of the songs that were compiled for the boxset? For instance, I know there is a Brian mix of Wind Chimes that is the whole song, with the weird count in in the middle. This is a good replacement for the boxset mix if I want an authentic BW mix in my Smile playlist! what are the equivalents for songs such as vegetables, Worms and Wonderful, or maybe these songs just exist in pieces?

[Andy B]

I think many of the tracks were remixed (or rather mixed for the first time) for the box set. This is true for "Vegetables", "Heroes & Villains (Segments)", "I Love To Say Dada", "Do You Like Worms?" and, I think, "Wonderful". "Wind Chimes" was edited together from different segments found on the same tape reel (the order on the reel implied that the segments should be edited in the manner they were).

What's interesting is that if those songs were mixed from the master tapes, then why were they done in mono? Would seem better and more appropriate (at least in 1990 when talk of mono being the superior format was pretty redundant) to have mixed them in stereo. Or were there issues of authenticity at stake? Brian mixed in mono, so they decided to release the Smile tracks in mono?

[Chris Brown]

I think many of the tracks were remixed (or rather mixed for the first time) for the box set. This is true for "Vegetables", "Heroes & Villains (Segments)", "I Love To Say Dada", "Do You Like Worms?" and, I think, "Wonderful". "Wind Chimes" was edited together from different segments found on the same tape reel (the order on the reel implied that the segments should be edited in the manner they were).

What's interesting is that if those songs were mixed from the master tapes, then why were they done in mono? Would seem better and more appropriate (at least in 1990 when talk of mono being the superior format was pretty redundant) to have mixed them in stereo. Or were there issues of authenticity at stake? Brian mixed in mono, so they decided to release the Smile tracks in mono?

I would guess that was done to maintain consistency and possibly to keep true to how Brian would have mixed them back in '67.  Since the order of the box set was sequential, it would seem a bit jarring to hear mono mixes of Pet Sounds songs, Good Vibrations and then suddenly jump to stereo mixes of Smile tracks. 

Leaf once remarked that the Smile material being presented in context was important, which seems to me like another good reason to mix in mono.

[Roger Ryan]

I think many of the tracks were remixed (or rather mixed for the first time) for the box set. This is true for "Vegetables", "Heroes & Villains (Segments)", "I Love To Say Dada", "Do You Like Worms?" and, I think, "Wonderful". "Wind Chimes" was edited together from different segments found on the same tape reel (the order on the reel implied that the segments should be edited in the manner they were).

What's interesting is that if those songs were mixed from the master tapes, then why were they done in mono? Would seem better and more appropriate (at least in 1990 when talk of mono being the superior format was pretty redundant) to have mixed them in stereo. Or were there issues of authenticity at stake? Brian mixed in mono, so they decided to release the Smile tracks in mono?

I would guess that was done to maintain consistency and possibly to keep true to how Brian would have mixed them back in '67.  Since the order of the box set was sequential, it would seem a bit jarring to hear mono mixes of Pet Sounds songs, Good Vibrations and then suddenly jump to stereo mixes of Smile tracks. 

Leaf once remarked that the Smile material being presented in context was important, which seems to me like another good reason to mix in mono.

Yet, of course, "Cabinessence" is in stereo and smack-dab in the middle of the SMiLE selection!

[Bicyclerider]

i'm sure Mark and David would have loved to include a mono mix of Cabinessence - unfortunately the multitracks (with Carl's lead vocal) had disappeared so they had to use the 20/20 stereo mix.

[petsite]

There was another thread just a few weeks ago about the SMiLE tracks that were on the boxset. But we can always talk about them.

The version of Heroes and Villians is indeed from a protection master (sounding either several generations removed, or more likey, just badly dubbed). The mix was done on the 27th of January1967 (my eight birthday!) and also the day the three astronauts died in the fire on the launch pad in Apollo 1. The protection master was made on Feb. 10th.

Wonderful is from a copy of Brian's Dec 1966 comp reel. That reel (which may or may not have been the actual master mix of Wonderful) could not be found. The producers were put in touch with Tom Murphy, a former Brother Studios engineer, who had copied that comp rel for his own enjoyment and still had his copy. He gave that copy to Brother records. I think (don't hold me to this) that the original 12/66 comp reel has now been found.

Worms was a new mix with the second verse opening added.

Vega-Tables was an ad-hoc mix with another bit of SMiLE music tacked on to the end.

I Love To Say Da Da was a completed mono mixdown.

That's about all I know!

Bob

[Chris Brown]

Thanks for all of the info Bob, very helpful and interesting stuff. 

So Da Da was a completed Brian mono mixdown?  I wouldn't have thought of it as completed...it seems to fade out at an odd point, like there should have been more there.

[petsite]

Thanks for all of the info Bob, very helpful and interesting stuff. 

So Da Da was a completed Brian mono mixdown?  I wouldn't have thought of it as completed...it seems to fade out at an odd point, like there should have been more there.

I should have probably said a "mix in progress". A reference mix. Of which we have plenty for other songs from this period. I can think of like 5 for WIBN.

[Chris Brown]

Thanks for all of the info Bob, very helpful and interesting stuff. 

So Da Da was a completed Brian mono mixdown?  I wouldn't have thought of it as completed...it seems to fade out at an odd point, like there should have been more there.

I should have probably said a "mix in progress". A reference mix. Of which we have plenty for other songs from this period. I can think of like 5 for WIBN.

Ok that makes more sense now, thanks!

[buddhahat]

Thanks for all of the info Bob, very helpful and interesting stuff. 

So Da Da was a completed Brian mono mixdown?  I wouldn't have thought of it as completed...it seems to fade out at an odd point, like there should have been more there.

Exactly! On Secret Smile (I love To Say dada Part 2 Overdub) you can hear it without the fade and it moves into a piano led piece reminiscent of CIFOTM (reminds me of the 'Woodchuck' snippet) for a few seconds before breaking down. When I first heard it I thought it was just the musicians messing around at the end of the take, but I'm increasingly convinced that it's the start of another section to Dada. It sounds too deliberate, and fits too well to just be accidental improvisation imo. Another poster here was convinced also that this brief piano part was a glimpse of a section 3 to dada that Brian never got around to recording. I've actually edited this ending onto the boxset dada for use in my Smile mixes as I love it so much, even if it is just a few seconds.

I always thought Mark Linnett added that fade on Dada for the boxset. Is that not the case then?

[Chris Brown]

Thanks for all of the info Bob, very helpful and interesting stuff. 

So Da Da was a completed Brian mono mixdown?  I wouldn't have thought of it as completed...it seems to fade out at an odd point, like there should have been more there.

Exactly! On Secret Smile (I love To Say dada Part 2 Overdub) you can hear it without the fade and it moves into a piano led piece reminiscent of CIFOTM (reminds me of the 'Woodchuck' snippet) for a few seconds before breaking down. When I first heard it I thought it was just the musicians messing around at the end of the take, but I'm increasingly convinced that it's the start of another section to Dada. It sounds too deliberate, and fits too well to just be accidental improvisation imo. Another poster here was convinced also that this brief piano part was a glimpse of a section 3 to dada that Brian never got around to recording. I've actually edited this ending onto the boxset dada for use in my Smile mixes as I love it so much, even if it is just a few seconds.

I always thought Mark Linnett added that fade on Dada for the boxset. Is that not the case then?

No there is no added fade on the boxset...it just fades quickly after the "Aloha nui means goodbye" part on BWPS.  I'll have to take a listen to Secret Smile again, but I would certainly think that Brian had planned something else to go after that section.

[Bicyclerider]

Vega-Tables was an ad-hoc mix with another bit of SMiLE music tacked on to the end.

Bob

Mark mixed VegaTables using Brian mixes as a guide (the Brian edit on Vigtone Smile, with the two lead verse vocals superimposed).  The "other bit" of Smile music tacked on is a piece called "Fade to Vegetables" so it certainly was appropriate to place it there - I just wouldn't have cross faded into it, as Brian was not doing any crossfading for Smile, everything was direct tape edits.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Does anybody find it curious how approximately 30 minutes of SMiLE - a pretty big chunk - could be released on the boxed set, with very little fanfare. Yet, if they (anybody) wanted to increase that number, with a SMiLE compilation or boxed set, all hell would probably break loose.

[Bean Bag]

Hey Andy B.  I myself, just flew in from far away.  For I too have been snapped back after a long hiatus.  For me it's 2004's Brian Wilson Presents Smile.  I freekin' love it.

Hope you find what you're lookin' for,
B.B.

PS:  John Stone, I'm down man.  We've got the GV tracks and the BWPS....but the damn oceans would boil if a proper box came out.  WTF, indeed.

[the captain]

ow

[Mahalo]

  The "other bit" of Smile music tacked on is a piece called "Fade to Vegetables" so it certainly was appropriate to place it there

Could this have meant "Fade into Vegetables"? 'just a thought...

[The Song Of The Grange]

  The "other bit" of Smile music tacked on is a piece called "Fade to Vegetables" so it certainly was appropriate to place it there

Could this have meant "Fade into Vegetables"? 'just a thought...

This raises an interesting point.  There is the H&V section that was called "Bridge to Indians" and I have always wondered if this meant a link to a section referred in short hand as "Indians" (maybe the Bicycle Rider section?) or if it was the "bridge" to a section called "Indians".  One would be a link and one would be more of a B-section of a song.  I've wondered the same thing with Fade to Vegetables--did it mean "fade to the song Vegetables" or "fade into Vegetables."  It seems trivial but it could have big implications for our understanding of that track.

[The Song Of The Grange]

Thanks for all of the info Bob, very helpful and interesting stuff. 

So Da Da was a completed Brian mono mixdown?  I wouldn't have thought of it as completed...it seems to fade out at an odd point, like there should have been more there.

Exactly! On Secret Smile (I love To Say dada Part 2 Overdub) you can hear it without the fade and it moves into a piano led piece reminiscent of CIFOTM (reminds me of the 'Woodchuck' snippet) for a few seconds before breaking down. When I first heard it I thought it was just the musicians messing around at the end of the take, but I'm increasingly convinced that it's the start of another section to Dada. It sounds too deliberate, and fits too well to just be accidental improvisation imo. Another poster here was convinced also that this brief piano part was a glimpse of a section 3 to dada that Brian never got around to recording. I've actually edited this ending onto the boxset dada for use in my Smile mixes as I love it so much, even if it is just a few seconds.

I have thought about this break down ending to Da Da also.  I always figured it was a set up for another section.  If you listen to the sessions for Cabinessence you can hear where brian had the players end a section by going briefly into the next section ( in this case ending a take of Home On the Range with the first bar crash of the Iron Horse section).  I think he did this to help the transitions when the two sections were later edited together.  It would give him and the tape editor a target to shoot for.  When they edited tape they had to roll the section back and forth over the playback head to get the exact spot to make the splice.  If you had this crash it would be easier to pin point where to make the slice.

I too have thought that the break down section sounds a bit like Child is the Father.  At least that is the closest thing to it, with the hopping 1/4 notes.  I think it was in the wrong key when I tried to edit one with the other.  I have also looped the Da Da breakdown ending to see if the repetition would reveal something.  It just sounded like a rough outtake from Child or Good Vibrations, which also has that chopping beat.

PS: what is the "woodchuck" snippet?

[Dr. Tim]

Captain Obvious here.  Be careful not to read too much into those legends on the tape boxes!   By all means use them for what they're worth as clues but often those titles were scribbled in grease pencil onto the boxes at the end of a session quickly so everyone could go home.  The title could have been misheard, or just "something something Vegetables" with the expectation that somebody - Brian or whoever - would remember in the short term what was on the reel in case there was a need to go back to it.  My take on this comes from my studio experience, seeing how other bands kept track of tapes/reference mixes (or didn't).  Also a recent radio interview with an archivist who found lots of improperly labeled acetates and demos of Frank Loesser show songs and had to play them all to see what they were, and who may have performed them.