post your pointless Smile ponderings here!!

[buddhahat]

No point to this really as no one can answer definitively yes or no but:

On Secret Smile there's a couple of takes of Love To Say Da Da where right at the end of the song the piano starts playing a tune remarkably similar to Child Is Father Of The Man. It made me wonder whether the 2 songs belonged together in any way - either that Child would've followed on after Da Da or that maybe at the end of Da Da the Child theme was to be reprised (similar to the coda of Surf's Up). Maybe Da Da has nothing to do with water at all and was supposed to belong with the 'life-cycle' songs (if these ever existed as a themed set)- after all, the name 'Love to say Da Da' suggests it's about a baby's first words doesn't it? That would fit it very nicely with CIFOTM. Of course the pianist could just be doodling around at the end of the song.

Anyone know the bit I'm talking about?

[Sheriff John Stone]

A pointless pondering? I'm addicted to making SMiLE mix CD's. Ever since I got a CD burner and a bunch of 66-67 SMiLE mp3's, it has been a constant pursuit to make the perfect SMiLE CD. It has been tinkering, tinkering, and more tinkering. But I get a kick out of it; I get to be Brian Wilson in my computer room - it's my Western or Sunset!

And I actually think I understand what he went through in trying to put that thing together!!!!  

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I've already figured it out.... ......jk

[Boiled Egg]

(i think that's Brian playing piano on the Da-Da/CIFOTM session, isn't it? seem to remember him speaking somewhere on the session.) 

it could be that the CIFOTM riff was going to appear in more than one place, like Bicycle Rider does.  it's certainly a good enough

here's one from off the curve: could Do You Like Worms have become Gettin' Hungry?  similar chords, similar vocal line (now we know it). 

i must admit, DLYW is the piece of SMiLE i find most open to interpretation, because it's got the biggest hole in it.  and the Roll Plymouth Rock version i find wildly unconvincing.  i just don't believe that the 'rock, rock, roll' vocals were ever going to be anything other than backing vocals originally - and that something with a cracking melody would have gone over them (He Gives Speeches works quite well, coincidentally).  nor do i believe that the RPR verse is what was intended in '66.  it's such a pedestrian melody, and in such a weak vocal register.  and SMiLE, for all its loose ends, is characterised by fabulous melody writing - Surf's Up, Wonderful, Cabinessence, Wind Chimes.  in that context, the RPR melody is a bunt in stead of a grand slam.

there you go.  some baseless conjecture to add to the mix.

[Bicyclerider]

No, that's not doodling, it's another section of the song that breaks down quickly.  I suspect that the last April date for Dada that was cancelled was for completion of this section - I don't have info handy but several musicians were booked for that date.

As long as we're pondering about Smile, does anyone know what the background vocals are saying in the Vegetables "cornucopia" "demo" version?  The only thing I can make out is "dig a hole in the ground," but there's definitely some other words in there.  I'm revising my Smile primer (once again) and would like to include those lyrics.

[Bicyclerider]

As for Worms, we do have some lyrics (the sandwhich isles bit) that didn't show up in the BWPS Plymouth Rock version - perhaps they were supposed to go over the RPR backing vocals?

[Roger Ryan]

As for Worms, we do have some lyrics (the sandwhich isles bit) that didn't show up in the BWPS Plymouth Rock version - perhaps they were supposed to go over the RPR backing vocals?

Well, the "sandwich isles" line is in the BWPS release; I assume you mean the "West or East Indies - we always got them confused" lyric. To me, that lyric has the same obtuse vibe as the missing "Cabin Essence" lyrics ("reconnected telephone lines...this is not a recording"). In other words, they don't seem to fit in with the more polished "SMiLE" lyrics that reached the recording stage.

Regarding the title of "I Love To Say Dada": it absolutely sounds like it would fit in with the whole "Child Is Father Of The Man" section and, taken as a reference to the 1920s surrealist movement, would be classic Parks wordplay.

[buddhahat]

No, that's not doodling, it's another section of the song that breaks down quickly.  I suspect that the last April date for Dada that was cancelled was for completion of this section - I don't have info handy but several musicians were booked for that date.

It's fascinating to think that it may be the beginning to a part 3 of Dada. Why would Brian record Dada with a fade though? Did he perhaps scrap the idea of a part 3 section and go back and mix the fade in later?

Has anyone else noticed that the beginning of Love To Say Dada sounds very much like a reprise of the keen wok a poo la hawaian section of Worms? It's definitely a variation on that Hawaian bit to my ears.

Also if Dada was not supposed to be water, then what was? I think the last section of Vegatables sounds like an excellent candidate for water - it sounds much more watery than any other Smile track imo. If you insert the water chant between do a lot and veg part 3 it fits the mood perfectly and creates a really watery vibe!

[Mahalo]

i must admit, DLYW is the piece of SMiLE i find most open to interpretation, because it's got the biggest hole in it.  and the Roll Plymouth Rock version i find wildly unconvincing.  i just don't believe that the 'rock, rock, roll' vocals were ever going to be anything other than backing vocals originally - and that something with a cracking melody would have gone over them (He Gives Speeches works quite well, coincidentally).  nor do i believe that the RPR verse is what was intended in '66.  it's such a pedestrian melody, and in such a weak vocal register.  and SMiLE, for all its loose ends, is characterised by fabulous melody writing - Surf's Up, Wonderful, Cabinessence, Wind Chimes.  in that context, the RPR melody is a bunt in stead of a grand slam.

I agree with the idea of the melody being "pedestrian", but I think it works well because it has that "laid-back chillin' in Hawaii on an ocean cruiser vibe...." It is a nice balance compared to the more complex melodies on the album..........

My take on Surf's Up is this:
the Demo version rules, hands down.....

Next I take the BWPS version because there is a greater harmonic texture created with the band for various reasons...one being that Brian couldn't hit the high notes anymore and splits with Foskett on the columnated part...as Foskett goes up for the high note, Brian sings counter-part going down...this works very well...the overall production sounds complete

The 1971 version sounds incomplete to me, and hollow...However it has a great sense of nostalgia to it and it is the only version w/the BB's. Carl's vocal is killer, but still sounds weird to me... this version sounds....ghostly

just one of my very pointless SMiLE! ponderings......

[Chris Moise]

What I want to know is did Van Dyke write lyrics for CITFOTM in 1966 and if so where are those lyrics? Are they lost to history?

[Bicyclerider]

When asked in the 90's, before BWPS, by Jon Hunt I believe, VDP said he wrote the lyrics to Child.  But his brief, cryptic responses, as usual, didn't tell whether he wrote verse lyrics or just the "Child is father to the man" chorus.  We don't have any 66 lyrics other than the chorus, and the BWPS lyrics are new.

Anyone with an idea of what those hard to decipher backing vocal lyrics are in the cornucopia Vegetabes?  Please?

I don't belileve Brian ever made a mix of Dada, at least we don't have one - the fade was done by mark Linnett in 1988, leaving out the partial Part 3.  Brian may have decided to exclude Part 3, if he had ever finished the piece.  It was excluded from BWPS but then many of the fades/tags/part 3 sections of songs were excluded to make the songs into suites - an unfortunate loss of some of the best music of Smile (false Barnyard OMP fade gone, Fade to Vegetables gone, etc.).

[XY]

Love To Say Dada:

The well-known 'water' version was recorded on 05/16.
But on the following day, they recorded the Part 2 (aka "All Day") again with wind & air instruments (flutes like birds).
And there was even a third session on 05/18 and a cancelled session on 05/19.
I don't know, but maybe this was meant as some kind of Elements-suite.

[Chris Brown]

"Anyone with an idea of what those hard to decipher backing vocal lyrics are in the cornucopia Vegetabes?  Please?"

I've always wondered that too...all I can hear is something like "my body shook" at the end.

[wiggbuggie]

does anyone know what the air section of the elements sounds like or has it? I know Brian once said that their was an instrument piece they did that would be air. Their was an instrumental piano one from the bootleg phycadelic sounds called all day can that be air?  And what about earth i guess they didn't even start that.

[pixletwin]

Vega-Tables is from earth isn't it? Windchimes is air, as I always thought.

[wiggbuggie]

not sure i always though that the elements was always seprate from wind chimes and vegatables otherwise in the boots and sessions they would say elements part 3 or something

[buddhahat]

Love To Say Dada:

The well-known 'water' version was recorded on 05/16.
But on the following day, they recorded the Part 2 (aka "All Day") again with wind & air instruments (flutes like birds).
And there was even a third session on 05/18 and a cancelled session on 05/19.
I don't know, but maybe this was meant as some kind of Elements-suite.

If Dada was to be part of elements, maybe the piano doodling that hints at Brian's plans for dada part 3 was actually the start of air. It's not completely inconceivable - he did describe air as a piano piece that they never got round to finishing which corresponds with Dada part 3.

That 2nd revision of Dada part 2 with bird whistles etc. always makes me suspicious that Dada is just supposed to be water - that revision sounds like birds in a forest or something but sounds nothing like water - it does sound more airy though or maybe was a build up towards air, aka, Dada part 3 (I'm slowly convincing myself here!).

Perhaps the elements suite was to kick of with Mrs O'Leary's Fire (the elements part 1), followed by IWBA/FN (I definitely believe this was to follow Fire at some point). This then could've moved into either Vegatables (earth) or Dada. Why would Brian record a fade for IWBA/FN though? Is that definitely Brian's fade?

[onkster]

If you listen to a SMiLE boot with headphones on, and you hypnotize yourself into going back in time to 1966, Brian Wilson himself will tell you, "No, man, 'Wind Chimes' is like its own song!"  Not the Air piece.

"Airpiece"--now THAT would be a good title for the Air piece!  Kinda like Cabinessence, but funnier.  ("Cabinessence" sounds like some kinda prairie-era shampoo...)

[Chris Brown]

not sure i always though that the elements was always seprate from wind chimes and vegatables otherwise in the boots and sessions they would say elements part 3 or something

Took the words right out of my mouth.  Fire had a very clear distinction as being "The Elements: Part One".  No other sessions for "The Elements" were called out like that. 

Thus, I tend to believe that Fire was fire, Water Chant was water; Earth and Air either don't exist or haven't been found yet.  Trying to retrofit already existing tracks into the Elements doesn't make sense to me (maybe this has to do with my theory of the Elements being short pieces all to be spliced together as one track, not complete "songs").  Maybe some of his ideas for certain elements were extrapolated into full songs, but I can't see Mrs. O'Leary's Cow, a short instrumental, being Fire, and then a full track like Wind Chimes being Air. 

[LostArt]

The idea of Vegetables being an element comes from one of Frank Holmes' drawings for the original Smile booklet, which contains the words 'My Vege-Tables-The Elements'.  So it is possible that at one time "Vegetables" was to be a part of the elements.  It is also possible that the next day, it wasn't part of the elements.

[Mahalo]

("Cabinessence" sounds like some kinda prairie-era shampoo...)

brilliant!!...