The Wilson/Paley Sessions

[Lonely Summer]

I think that the impossibility of replicating Pet Sounds, and the religious cult of it as an unreachable totem, damaged Brian more than not completing SMiLE. He managed to stop working on SMiLE, but could not undo Pet Sounds, and so has had to carry that weight since then.

Agreed.

[orangeboulder]

There are some standouts from the Wilson/Paley sessions, but I do think it's a bit romanticized among the fanbase. Even if the BB recorded those songs for an album in 1995, I really don't believe it would have fundamentally altered their career trajectory. Maybe some buzz in indie circles, maybe fleeting top 40; but I really don't see any of that material as chart topping material, even though there are some great songs present.

A few things to consider:

1) How much of these songs are Brian and how much are Andy with Brian being there?  I think Brian was more involved with this material than some of his later solo releases, but perhaps a lot of these songs were more written by Andy than Brian.

2) Carl had the right to be skeptical of Brian's ability to do an album. I'm sure many here have seen this Brian interview from 1995: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUHUGXDIhz0  This is the worst I've ever seen Brian. Overweight, chain-smoking, grimacing frequently, struggling to be coherent. I think this interview is one of the few times fans can see what Brian's mental illness is like behind scenes. Carl had already seen Brian get used and abused several times prior and probably felt that Brian couldn't produce an album again.

3) Melinda did not like the Paley material. She said it was good therapy but not something to be released. I disagree with that statement, but it's important to discuss in why this material was never completed back in the day. I'd much rather prefer this as an official release than Stars and Stripes or Imagination. They did re-record some of these songs, but done in the style of Joe Thomas.

god I love seeing people so incredibly wrong

[Join The Human Race]

There are some standouts from the Wilson/Paley sessions, but I do think it's a bit romanticized among the fanbase. Even if the BB recorded those songs for an album in 1995, I really don't believe it would have fundamentally altered their career trajectory. Maybe some buzz in indie circles, maybe fleeting top 40; but I really don't see any of that material as chart topping material, even though there are some great songs present.

A few things to consider:

1) How much of these songs are Brian and how much are Andy with Brian being there?  I think Brian was more involved with this material than some of his later solo releases, but perhaps a lot of these songs were more written by Andy than Brian.

2) Carl had the right to be skeptical of Brian's ability to do an album. I'm sure many here have seen this Brian interview from 1995: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUHUGXDIhz0  This is the worst I've ever seen Brian. Overweight, chain-smoking, grimacing frequently, struggling to be coherent. I think this interview is one of the few times fans can see what Brian's mental illness is like behind scenes. Carl had already seen Brian get used and abused several times prior and probably felt that Brian couldn't produce an album again.

3) Melinda did not like the Paley material. She said it was good therapy but not something to be released. I disagree with that statement, but it's important to discuss in why this material was never completed back in the day. I'd much rather prefer this as an official release than Stars and Stripes or Imagination. They did re-record some of these songs, but done in the style of Joe Thomas.

god I love seeing people so incredibly wrong

Dynamite drop in, Orange-y. That Troll school really paid off

[Bedroom Tapes]

.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

There are some standouts from the Wilson/Paley sessions, but I do think it's a bit romanticized among the fanbase. Even if the BB recorded those songs for an album in 1995, I really don't believe it would have fundamentally altered their career trajectory. Maybe some buzz in indie circles, maybe fleeting top 40; but I really don't see any of that material as chart topping material, even though there are some great songs present.

A few things to consider:

1) How much of these songs are Brian and how much are Andy with Brian being there?  I think Brian was more involved with this material than some of his later solo releases, but perhaps a lot of these songs were more written by Andy than Brian.

2) Carl had the right to be skeptical of Brian's ability to do an album. I'm sure many here have seen this Brian interview from 1995: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUHUGXDIhz0  This is the worst I've ever seen Brian. Overweight, chain-smoking, grimacing frequently, struggling to be coherent. I think this interview is one of the few times fans can see what Brian's mental illness is like behind scenes. Carl had already seen Brian get used and abused several times prior and probably felt that Brian couldn't produce an album again.

3) Melinda did not like the Paley material. She said it was good therapy but not something to be released. I disagree with that statement, but it's important to discuss in why this material was never completed back in the day. I'd much rather prefer this as an official release than Stars and Stripes or Imagination. They did re-record some of these songs, but done in the style of Joe Thomas.

god I love seeing people so incredibly wrong

What part do you feel is wrong?

[Julia]

I had always hoped against hope that there'd be an officially sanctioned, comprehensive "Paley Sessions boxset" in Brian's lifetime, with the same fanfare as TSS and perhaps even "flown-in" overdubs to give these tracks something of a proper release but alas. Whatever flaws the material may have, it's the best thing Brian did since Love You and it deserves to be treated as such. I really wish more people were willing to discuss the individual songs, the potential album that could've come from them, the recording process and the interconnected themes with even half the reverence they do for SMiLE. While the music may not be as awe-inspiring nor the motifs as readily apparent, the tradeoff is the possibilities are wide open. There's no generally accepted factoids like "we know GV and H&V would've kicked off each side" and "we know SU would've closed" etc. I'll admit I'm a bit of a hypocrite here because I haven't ventured to cutting down the sessions to my own 30-45 minute prospective album, but that is a project I'd like to do in the near future. With Brian's passing, maybe the time has finally come, and when it's done I'll make a thread for that...

For me, I say even with the unfinished drafts we have, there's a clear commercial potential that they hadn't displayed in any of their releases since "Sail On, Sailor." The lack of refinement, while perhaps unintentional, is a welcome contrast from the overly polished Joe Thomas production or the "trying WAY too hard" vibe I got from the two Landy projects. It's raw like Let It Be...Naked; "let's ditch the Wrecking Crew, let's ditch the synthesizers and digital crutches and just hammer out a tune on the family piano" kind of vibe. It's like "the basement tapes" in that there's a sincere love of the craft that's driving the project, just making music for the sake of music, without Capitol breathing down his neck nor the other Beach Boys throwing him in the booth before he was really ready. If Pet Sounds represents the most concentrated essence of Brian's yearning and angst, & SMiLE represents his philosophy and spirituality, & Smiley Smile his inner demons and self sabotage, & Love You his quirkiness and irreverent humor, I'd say the Paley material best embodies his earnestness and sentimentality. If I wanted to sum up his career, introduce a friend to "the many moods of Brian Wilson" I'd tell them to listen to those 5 albums.

Nil nisi bonum, but I think Melinda's management of Brian's career overemphasized the family friendly and "unambiguously praiseworthy" side of Brian, while burying the more offbeat, controversial and "commercially untested" aspect of his discography. We've discussed in the past how BWPS sands down the psychedelic and haunting parts of those original 60s recordings, plus he toured Pet Sounds so many times but never Smiley or Love You, also there was never a push to release Adult/Child nor his other unreleased stuff like there was with SMiLE, and I could go on. None of Brian's work with Joe Thomas seemed to convey any of the deeply held, uncomfortable-but-honest turmoil found in his best work, it's all just bland corporate-friendly product you'd hear in a motel lobby or mall elevator. My point is, I think Melinda (and whoever else) missed a HUGE opportunity while the man was still alive to reintroduce this material properly to the world. (I guess there was the GIOMH album but even that was tainted by Sweet Insanity leftovers and celebrity cameos, a problem that would also plague NPP).

As for the Paley Sessions' relatively muted reception from the fans, I think the reasons are as follows: 1) there's so much of it, enough for at least two albums, so the whole becomes less than the sum of its parts, when a lot of the lesser tracks would've been left on the cutting room floor.  2) Also, these are rough demos without the other vocalists or instrumental overdubs to make the track really sing. People hear "great unfinished Brian music" and they're primed for another SMiLE, but those songs had the good fortune of being worked on in '67 when he could call on the Wrecking Crew musicians to realize his ideas to their fullest potential. Imagine hearing Cabin Essence or Here Today but only with Brian on piano (plus his voice is shot). 3) Admittedly, while miles better than anything since ~78 (or maybe '88 if your really love BW, which I don't) Paley is no Asher nor VDP. The lyrics are very good-to-serviceable depending on the track, but they're not noticeably brilliant nor particularly thought provoking. There's no turn of phrase like "maybe if we think and wish and hope and pray it might come true / baby then, there wouldn't be a single thing we couldn't do" that makes you go "wow, that's a great line!" nor do you find yourself writing the lyrics down and spending an hour trying to decipher what they mean like "Wonderful" and "Surf's Up." They get the job done, that's all.

Final thought, and here's where I'm probably going to step on people's toes but it's my opinion after almost 25 years of fandom that Carl Wilson made a lot of bad calls. He was surely a wonderful man, a gentle soul, a beautiful voice and an essential part of the band, so I'm not saying this to disparage his overall legacy as a person. HOWEVER, I think he's very much overrated as a songwriter and a "creative visionary" especially in comparison to his two brothers. For me, his lack of support for this material is exhibit A. I know he's seen as the eternal peacemaker of the group, but to me I wonder if a less generous (but potentially just as accurate) reading is he blew with the wind and didn't have the same sense of artistic integrity or emotional honesty as Brian and Dennis. I'm not gonna make a big thing about this, but it's a hunch I get more and more as I continue to read about the group and as I find myself consistently underwhelmed by his highly acclaimed songs. Brian must have been so frustrated with the guys yoyoing between "we need you in the studio writing songs! [...] No, not like that!" for thirty years. They wanted his talent but not his voice and Carl was absolutely part of that unfair expectations-without-gratitude as far as I can see.

[Zenobi]

I agree with all you said in this post.

I'll add that the main reason I love the "Long Promised Road Soundtrack" album is because it stops NPP from being Brian's last album (not considering "At My Piano", which is extremely good but only covers).
I think that if NPP could have had a "At My Piano" treatment, just Brian, it would have been much better than the Disneyland album we got  (more Disney-like than the actual Disney album). Plus, I wonder who thought that ending it with "The Last Song", after "Southern California" and "Summer's Gone", was a good idea. Luckily it was NOT Brian's last song.
LPR "soundtrack" is as raw as they come, and I dig that.

I love Brian most when he rocks, and when he is at his quirkiest. The family-friendly, "mainstream" Brian, where everybody (except VDP, Andy Paley, Darian, Scott and few others) wanted him? Not always. Reason I can love Pet Sounds without making a cult totem of it. There is an unmistakable sign that somebody does not really know Brian, or the Beach Boys indeed: they talk only of "Pet Sounds", as if Brian and the Boys had made nothing else worthy mentioning. Compare with a real fan like Bruce Springsteen: in his tribute to Brian, he praises "Summer's Gone" and EVEN works "Nothing But Love", the best song from the Gershwin album, into a sentence! Way to go, Boss!

[Julia]

I think as you say that the Paley sessions loomed large for many years because a certain part of the fandom continued to argue that things like Imagination were Brian being pushed into a more commercial/bland direction and that the “real” Brian was represented on the more “raw” Paley demos. The suggestion is that Brian was pushed into collaboration with people like Joe by “outside forces” and that he would make more experimental music left to his own devices. But I just think that is wishful thinking and not where Brian head has been at since 1988

Personally, I think Brian was absolutely pushed into a certain direction by Thomas and Melinda but not in like a controlling or malicious way. I think Melinda wanted to keep Brian making music because it's what he does, what his life has always been, it keeps him busy and gives him a reason to get out of bed, plus any adulation or sales boosts his confidence. She wasn't using him by saying "hey Brian, wanna make some music with Joe?" (assuming that's how it played out) she was just giving him a project to occupy his time. If not for Melinda and Thomas (or others in a similar capacity) giving him that push, Brian wouldn't necessarily be making the cool experimental SMiLE-Love You 2 that in my wildest dreams I wish he would've been making. He would've either played Shortenin Bread riffs at the piano for hours at a time, never to be released or just not did anything. So, essentially, the choice wasn't between "what Melinda/Thomas wants or what Brian REALLY wants to do" so much as "do SOMETHING and Thomas is around to do it with, or do nothing at all." I hope that makes sense and doesn't sound disrespectful to Brian as that's not my intent. This isn't a "Brian was a vegetable" accusation, this is me saying Brian was an old man who didn't need to make more money and has a history of lack of motivation when there isn't someone to give him a push. Without Melinda we wouldn't have gotten anything at all.

I agree with all you said in this post.

I'll add that the main reason I love the "Long Promised Road Soundtrack" album is because it stops NPP from being Brian's last album (not considering "At My Piano", which is extremely good but only covers).
I think that if NPP could have had a "At My Piano" treatment, just Brian, it would have been much better than the Disneyland album we got  (more Disney-like than the actual Disney album). Plus, I wonder who thought that ending it with "The Last Song", after "Southern California" and "Summer's Gone", was a good idea. Luckily it was NOT Brian's last song.
LPR "soundtrack" is as raw as they come, and I dig that.

I love Brian most when he rocks, and when he is at his quirkiest. The family-friendly, "mainstream" Brian, where everybody (except VDP, Andy Paley, Darian, Scott and few others) wanted him? Not always. Reason I can love Pet Sounds without making a cult totem of it. There is an unmistakable sign that somebody does not really know Brian, or the Beach Boys indeed: they talk only of "Pet Sounds", as if Brian and the Boys had made nothing else worthy mentioning. Compare with a real fan like Bruce Springsteen: in his tribute to Brian, he praises "Summer's Gone" and EVEN works "Nothing But Love", the best song from the Gershwin album, into a sentence! Way to go, Boss!

Pet Sounds is definitely his best work, but I agree that the quirky side of him that his biggest fans find so endearing is lacking on it. I think one of the dividing factors among fans is that some, while admiring his obvious talent, are embarrassed or indifferent to his actual personality. They want the Brian who could conceptualize these pocket symphonies in his head, but not the one with the goofy humor, naive infatuations with young women, alternative spirituality and social awkwardness. There's fans who will look down on you if you're not into the deep cuts and others who will do the same if you like the "weird" stuff, who see something like Smiley as just a rush job and not the experimental lo-fi masterpiece it is. Not throwing shade, just my meta commentary on the fandom. Lots of artists who have long, varied careers that spanned genres have fans who like some of their stuff but dislike others and Brian is no different.

One pet peeve of mine, and I'm not trying to stir the pot saying this but again it's an honest observation: I think there are some fans who really dislike Brian being influenced by anyone outside the main group, like the so-called Vosse Posse or Joe Thomas and Melinda. And I admit I'm guilty of this to some extent too; I think Thomas' production ruins a lot of Brian's solo work and Melinda (though certainly a saint who saved his life and a loving partner) maybe didn't have the best commercial instincts or appreciation for the deeper cuts. However, when it comes to the Vosse Posse, I think those guys get a bad rap as the pendulum has swung (perhaps too far) from "Mike killed SMiLE." Im not even talking on the forums specifically; I've seen comments on news articles dismissing them as "pretentious stoners" and SMiLE is sometimes framed as "Brian trying to be something he wasn't." I think that's an overly simplistic take, and that some of the more traditional fans, who go to an orthodox Christian church and look down on that Aquarian Age psychedelic inspired hooey maybe don't want to acknowledge how deeply enraptured Brian was into astrology, numerology, subud, I ching and psychonautics too. He wasn't letting his friends dictate his interests, he was surrounding himself with likeminded people. He asked Daro for acid willingly, etc.

Really it just boils down to there's so many contradictory aspects of Brian and his music--a quote I saw in one of these threads that "everything I could say about him I could also say the opposite" is spot on--that there's different camps who like some of it but not others. I personally can't stand the Landy and Thomas years but adore the rest. I'm sure a strong argument could be made, by me, that everyone is grading BW88 on a curve because it's Brian, while someone else would argue that it only seems disappointing because my expectations were BW-level high.

[Julia]

That's what I've been saying for years, and a few of us said it earlier in this discussion: For all of the doubts or hesitation the band had with Brian, he had a literal backlog of material he had been writing that could have easily formed a new album for the Beach Boys, and he had been working on music pretty consistently since the Landy sh*t ended. During that time, just look at the list of songs he was working on, and the list of people he was working with in the studio on various projects.

If the Beach Boys couldn't see what was happening, if they couldn't find something worth releasing, or if they thought Brian wasn't "up to the task" of making music...that's all on them, they were clearly going on factors other than whether Brian was able to make new music that could be a viable release. And again the question since 1967 with the band was if they didn't want or like what Brian was offering them, what did they offer in return, and what could they do without him that was commercially viable? The only fluke of the whole history was Kokomo. When the band did get an international showcase on Baywatch, they performed one of the absolute worst songs in their entire catalog history.

And Brian was the one who wasn't up to the task? Unreal.


Also don't forget the track that came out on the Rob Wasserman "Trios" album, Fantasy Is Reality / Bells Of Madness, featuring Brian and Carnie with Wasserman. For fans of Brian's music, that was a pretty solid track that had key elements of Brian in there, and I remember being very, very excited at the news this track was coming out back in the day. If the band could have collected more songs in that vein, they could easily have had a solid album of new material to plug, as we've said before.

I couldn't agree more with this comment. It really sums up the whole "tragicomedy" of the band as yall have called it. The "Brian and the 5 assholes" narrative of David Leaf that some people complain about is certainly an exaggerated stereotype and yet it's not totally unfounded either if you ask me. They felt entitled to his creativity because they'd hitched their wagons to his star, yet as early as '66 they were, we'll say, not-quite-enthusiastic to outright hostile of his pursuits. It's really a shame Brian was such a gentle, passive-to-a-fault person, because almost anyone else would've said "do you guys want my music or not? F this, if you're gonna berate me for not writing surf songs like it's 1963 forever I'll just go solo and then where would you be?" He'd have been well within his rights to do so if they really were as antagonistic towards SMiLE as is sometimes claimed, only to start pilfering it against his wishes, or forcing him into the studio with "Brian's Back!" only to reject Adult/Child, then actively discouraging his solo ventures like producing Redwood and going solo in '77. You'd think they'd have learned to trust him by the 90s for those reasons alone but then, as you say, it gets even more ridiculous considering how prolific Brian was in comparison to their output without him. They may have had legit reasons to doubt the viability of SMiLE at the time, but after that I can't believe someone like Al wouldn't realize "The best I got is a song about feet, Mike's solo album and SIP suck, Carl's solo stuff is mediocre, Bruce is a cornball and Dennis is gone. I'm doing whatever the hell Brian says and be grateful for it!"

I think spite, bitterness, resentment, ego and revenge clouded their judgement. As has been said, there was lingering frustration over Brian's autobiography and "being a nuisance" with his pesky mental illness (which spoiled the gravy train with Landy, periods of inactivity and drugs). This made them reject all things Brian (and Dennis when he was still alive) even though it was completely irrational from a critical and often commercial perspective--it was more about "not encouraging their methods" and "not wanting to give them a win after the hell they've put us through" than doing what's best for the band's output. Conversely, Mike was a cornball writing "Summer of Love" and bringing cheerleaders onstage but he'd never stood in the way of the cashflow (at least that was the perception). He also has a domineering personality and isn't afraid of confrontation, so getting his material out the door and placating his ego was a higher priority for the others than recognizing Brian's talent. At least that's my theory. It probably hurt too much to acknowledge that, even after everything that'd happened to him, Brian was still a more talented songwriter-producer than the rest of them put together, same as they are said to have been jealous of the female attention Dennis received.

Really, these guys had just outgrown each other long ago but couldn't permanently split up because they were a family. It's just a perfect example of why blood and business shouldn't mix.

[Zenobi]

While I agree that without Melinda we would have got nothing after 1988 (apart from everything else, she saved him from Landy), I think it was never "Joe or nothing", maybe excepting the 2012 reunion.
People tend to forget how productive "solo" Brian has been. The Beach Boys did 29 studio albums from 1962 to 2012 (15 of them before 1970), Brian 12 albums from 1988 to 2021.
Most of this work did not need Joe. Brian had several main collaborators: too many (but notably Andy Paley) for BW1988, Darian and VDP himself for BWPS, his band for the excellent Christmas album, Scott for TLOS, etc. Always excepting 2012, Joe was instrumental only for Imagination and NPP, imho Brian's weakest works. Sorry Joe, nothing personal, I liked you too as a person... but not as a producer alas.
The Paley Sessions could have easily been released if "the stars had aligned"... instead, it was "don't f... with the Formula" yet again. Whoever invented that mantra.