Brian has been placed in a conservatorship

[MyDrKnowsItKeepsMeCalm]

The part of this which is hard to figure out in terms of Mike writing with Brian is that when reading through the Joe Thomas interview, Brian and Mike DID write together, and as others have said, in a way that's more in line with their previous successful collaborations like California Girls and Good Vibrations than Mike's ideal "room with a piano" scenario, or starting something from scratch. I don't know if Mike is/was looking for something to gripe about, or just bitching for the sake of it, but the Thomas interview clearly states that Mike and Brian co-wrote those songs mentioned, in the way they had done before. It goes against some of Mike's claims in subsequent years that he wasn't allowed to write with Brian, or whatever his claims were.

100%. To try to be fair to Mike, I think there is probably a subtext to his complaints, which is that the TWGMTR project was mostly formed without him. He probably feels like this has happened many times in the Beach Boys' career -- "OK Mike, here's what we're going to be doing, here are the songs in development, and here are the parts you're going to sing" -- and especially for a guy that is used to calling all the shots for the touring band, it's likely kind of a triggering dynamic for him.

But on the 'writing with Brian in a room' bit specifically, yes, it's hard to know how it could have been any closer to what Mike claims to want. It sounds like goalposts got moved, and most likely will keep getting moved no matter what.

[Lonely Summer]

I've never had a problem with the idea of Mike trying to write again with Brian.

I think over the years Mike would seem to sometimes be more into *talking* about it than actually trying to do it.

But as a concept, how could anybody not at least wonder what they could come up with if they tried?

The problem is that this became a sort of sticking point or talking point for Mike surrounding the aftermath of the reunion project, and I think most fans tend to feel the way I do, which is that Mike and Brian collaborating is a great idea, but it shouldn't be what doing an album or a tour is contingent on. And, to be fair, I don't think it ever was. I don't think Mike not getting to write with Brian was *the* reason the reunion fell apart. That's a much more complicated story of course.

As for *now*, I think that's a big open question with not a lot of potential affirmative outcomes. As best as I can tell, Brian is probably in a state where he can still "do" music. What exactly that might entail, I don't think we know. It's been well documented that even people with degenerative/cognitive issues can continue to sing and play to a surprisingly high standard. We've seen this with examples like Glen Campbell and Tony Bennett. But that seemed to, as far as I can tell, entail performing old "standards" that were very ingrained/etched into their musical memory. So with Brian, if I had to guess, I think for quite some time he'll probably be able to remember and sing and play tons of songs when he's having a good day. But can he (or does he want to) write new songs, or even workshop incomplete or old compositions? I don't know. Maybe Brian doesn't know.

What I do know is that, even going back over the last 25+ years, Brian has needed a sympathetic, empathetic writing partner that knows how to work with Brian, who knows how to capture and take note of what he puts down. It sometimes might entail, as Joe Thomas apparently did in the late 90s, taping numerous short-form, maybe sometimes stream-of-consciousness pieces that might be able to be further refined, compiled, etc. And *that* type of process is not something that seems to have ever been something that Mike Love can facilitate. In other words, *if* Brian is in good enough shape these days to have a good day where he could sit down with Mike and riff on some stuff an "see what happens", they'd probably need a third person there, either during or certainly after, to refine what they do. I'm sure someone like Darian could do this.

To be clear, I'm trying to stay open minded and not make any assumptions one way or the other about Brian's condition. I'm not putting my head in the sand about any of this. I think it's possible that Brian's just not in good enough shape to do anything like this. That time may have passed. And, I don't even know how I feel about the idea of just taping Brian's every moment at a piano for the rest of his life and like having someone else try to stitch together things from that. But I'm open to the idea that he perhaps has good days where musical things could still happen.

On Glen Campbell's final tour, he performed a few songs from Ghost on the Canvas. I'm sure he relied on the teleprompters for those songs.

[Chalk n Numbers]

That Joe Thomas interview was tremendously informative and interesting – thanks to MyDrKnowsItKeepsMeCalm for posting!

My reaction, reading it, was the same as GF’s: assuming the account is factual – no reason to suppose otherwise – I feel like what’s being described is pretty much the collaborative writing process Mike has so often and so publicly wished for. If I understand correctly, and if I’m remembering my Beach Boys history accurately, it seems to be very close to the dynamic that prevailed during the band’s early years.

Since it appears that Mike actually *got* the collaboration opportunity he wanted, I can think of two explanations for the fact that he continues to pine for that piano-equipped room.

Option one: the famous “room” is an idealized fantasy rather than a physical space. It’s like the sort of thing you hear from couples in a failing marriage: If only we could get back to the way it used to be, in that little studio apartment above the Italian restaurant, where things were simple and everything was wonderful. The person saying it knows there’s no going back, and – more to the point – usually knows that the day-to-day reality of that little apartment wasn’t so wonderful anyway. It’s an unattainable dream, a longing for something that can’t be had…and may never have existed in the first place. It’s kind of sad, really.

Option two: Mike is manufacturing a grievance, seeing a slight where none exists.

To my mind, the pattern of Mike’s behavior over the years seems to favor the latter. But in the spirit of charity, I choose to believe the former.

C&N

[send me a picture and i'll tell you]

On Glen Campbell's final tour, he performed a few songs from Ghost on the Canvas. I'm sure he relied on the teleprompters for those songs.

Yes. It's also worth noting that he learned and recorded those songs during the early stages of Alzheimer's. So he was still capable of assimilating new musical material and retaining it during that stage of his illness.

 "I'm Not Gonna Miss You" was recorded after he was done touring and was of necessity simpler material, but he was still able to at least briefly retain the words and musical phrases and turn in a good performance.

[HeyJude]

I don’t think Mike was/is manufacturing a grievance concerning writing with Brian. I just think it’s a bit of a stand-in or beating around the bush about the more specific grievance. And I think that grievance was, to put it bluntly, Joe Thomas. (And also Melinda, but I think the “writing alone with Brian” complaints pertain much less to her and more to Joe).

My guess is that what Mike is really referring to when lamenting not writing with Brian on the reunion album is that there are no “Wilson/Love” collaborations.

“Here Mike, Brian and Joe wrote 57 songs together and secured an album deal, now here’s a song you can add some lyrics to” is not the same as Brian asking Mike to help finish “California Girls”, “Good Vibrations”, etc. I suspect tracks like “Isn’t It Time” and “Spring Vacation”, etc. were not devoid of lyrics before being handed off to Mike.

So while this isn’t completely dissimilar to some of the writing scenarios back in the 60s for Brian and Mike, it’s probably Mike filling in lyrical gaps more than in the 60s, and he’s not working with songs Brian brought on his own. In the case of “Isn’t It Time”, Mike is adding to a song that already has *four* other writers on it.

And, I think what Mike is also referring to is Joe Thomas. I think it slowly irked him more and more that Joe was a co-writer on almost everything on the album. I think it irked him professionally/creatively, and also he probably also realized that Joe Thomas was collecting more songwriting royalties off the album than he (Mike) was.

I suspect, much like the project as a whole, Mike signed on at a point where he didn’t have this huge animus towards Thomas. I’m not sure precisely how that animus developed, because it seemed to have occurred literally *during* the tour. I don’t know if Mike just had slight misgivings about having Joe so heavily involved, and those misgivings just ballooned during the tour, or if there was some sort of inciting event that occurred that soured him.

I think the “writing alone with Brian” had less to do with the writing method or precise scenario, and more to do with being alone. Mike has gone on record that he has usually had “mixed feelings” about Brian working with other writers.

I think there had to be some cognitive dissonance though in getting involved in the reunion, because it was Joe Thomas that was a huge part in making it all happen. He helped secure a record deal. He helped secure the money and infrastructure to launch the reunion tour. And he was involved in the other ancillary products (two DVDs, the live album).

I think Joe Thomas teed up this big reunion project, with an album deal and a tour with advances ready to go, and Mike couldn’t turn it down. I suspect on some level Mike wanted to, or felt they should do, some sort of anniversary reunion project. As we’ve seen in interviews, his initial ideas in the years leading up to the 50th tended to involve one or maybe two shows taped for TV, not a 73-date world tour, a new studio album, two DVDs, and a live album.

I think Mike had to make a lot of concessions to do the reunion, a lot of loosening his grip on being in charge of everything, and he should be (and WAS) commended for that. But I think there was probably no way that sort of “power shift’ (whether we’re talking from Mike to Brian’s “camp”, or specifically Melinda, or specifically Joe Thomas, or all of the above) was sustainable. Mike clearly likes to do his job on his own terms. Is he willing to be passive and let someone else do stuff, is he willing to defer? Sure, but on his terms and by his choice. I think the reunion project was obviously a choice they all made in terms of getting involved, but once they signed on, Mike found himself having someone else to answer to in doing some elements of his job, and I don’t think Mike wants for any prolonged period of time to be *told* what to do. Again, I think he’s fine if Brian in the studio tells him to sing a vocal track again. But he doesn’t like the larger business machine telling him that they will placate him and let him add some lyrics to a song Brian, Joe, and two other guys wrote X number of years ago.

I’m not justifying or criticizing any of this really, it’s just how it was/is, as best as I can tell. I think Mike didn’t want to be the third wheel in a Brian/Joe/Mike “team”, but that wasn’t something he could bemoan for most of the reunion “year”, because Joe Thomas was a big part of making all of that happen. 

I think the reunion was so good on multiple levels, Mike should have sucked it up in order to keep it going. Would it have also been nice if Brian’s side did some things to, well, essentially placate Mike? Sure, especially if that could have helped the reunion continue. It wouldn’t have been the worst thing in the world to, after seeing Mike start to complain *during the tour* that he hadn’t had a chance to “write with Brian” the way he wanted (which meant “not with Joe”), Brian and his camp went to Mike and said “Look, let’s do another album, and we’ll set aside the extra Brian/Joe songs for now, or we’ll use some of those but we’ll stop and take more time and see if we can do some true Brian/Mike collabs.” And hey, even though their initial idea of a “rock and roll covers” album would not be my first choice, if offering to do *that* could have also helped keep the reunion going, I’d be all for that too. I’m not saying offering any of that would have saved the reunion. I think Mike just wanted to go back to being his own boss. But one can’t help but wonder if a ton of smoothing stuff over and extra compromises and negotiations could have allowed the reunion one or two more sort of “cycles”, to maybe get one or two more albums out of it, and another big world tour. An album and tour in summer/fall 2013, and then maybe another year of touring, and maybe a final album (if they had done the covers album first), and they could have wrapped this thing up nicely and nobody would feel like it ended prematurely.

But obviously, in 2024, we might as well be talking about the Monterey Pop Festival.

[Rocker]

My guess is that what Mike is really referring to when lamenting not writing with Brian on the reunion album is that there are no “Wilson/Love” collaborations.

You make a very good point. Yet in 2006 when the guys got the platinum (?) records for "Sounds of Summer" on the Capitol Tower rooftop Brian reportedly gave Mike a demo of a new song and asked if Mike wanted to write lyrics and the latter declined - https://youtu.be/OTSeL27Wq00?t=126
It sounds like this could've been a Wilson/Love tune. Now, I don't know what Mike's reason is. I have my theory but it's just that.

[HeyJude]

My guess is that what Mike is really referring to when lamenting not writing with Brian on the reunion album is that there are no “Wilson/Love” collaborations.

You make a very good point. Yet in 2006 when the guys got the platinum (?) records for "Sounds of Summer" on the Capitol Tower rooftop Brian reportedly gave Mike a demo of a new song and asked if Mike wanted to write lyrics and the latter declined - https://youtu.be/OTSeL27Wq00?t=126
It sounds like this could've been a Wilson/Love tune. Now, I don't know what Mike's reason is. I have my theory but it's just that.

Ah, I had forgotten about that bit from 2006. Good catch.

I think we can all deduce the likely list of reasons Mike didn't want to work on the song Brian suggested:

1. It may have been an existing co-write with another writer, and Mike clearly isn't into piggybacking onto songs Brian already wrote with others

2. It may have been something unlike what Mike was/is into, sort of like how Mike reacted to the sending suite on TWGMTR by pretending to shoot himself in the head in the Rolling Stone piece.

3. Maybe Mike just thought the song sucked. We'd obviously have to hear it to know. I don't think it's impossible that Brian might have tossed something towards Mike that was rather slight. But Mike I think would tend to like the slight stuff more than stuff like "Lucky Old Sun" material or "Pacific Coast Highway."

4. Related to some of the above, but somewhat distinct, is that I think Mike maybe wouldn't have wanted a collaboration to have a "Solo Brian" vibe, and in general he wasn't as into just guesting on each other's solo stuff.

5. 2006 was still a somewhat politically fraught time in the Beach Boys World. I think the Al lawsuit stuff had just very recently been wrapped up, and I think the "Smile" lawsuit stuff from Mike had only recently been shot down. I'm not sure what was still pending in various suits as of that date in 2006 (I think some of the remnants of the Smile suit may have still been lingering, but I'd have to re-check dates), but even if the slate was clear, the lawsuits were still pretty fresh at that point. It had been very recent that one of Mike's lawsuits had alleged Brian threatened to pull Mike's license and go out with Al as "The Beach Boys", and it was only months later at the end of 2006 that Brian did start doing some gigs with Al for the first time (though that all crashed and burned by mid-2007).

I think 2006 was always going to be a rough time to try a BB reunion, even if just Brian and Mike trying to write something. By 2011/2012, the lawsuits had been over for longer, I think Brian had kind of run through so much solo stuff that he was ready for something else, Al had been ready to do a reunion for years, and even Mike seemed to recognize the 50th would be a point to do *something*.

I think by the end of C50 in 2012, they all learned that a "reunion" could work, but that it looked and felt different than what some of them (Mike perhaps) might have thought or assumed or wanted. It's unfortunate that he used that information to reaffirm his thinking that he should just tour on his own, because I think they could have taken the information from the 2012 reunion to *refine* how to continue doing it in a way that would work and minimize the beefs.

[Zenobi]

A suggestion for the Moderators: this thread, which has a rather "unhappy" title, has been off-topic for a couple pages now. What about either:
1) Change the title.
2) Or "fork" the thread, separating the off-topic, but interesting and successful, posts?

I don't like the idea of being reminded of Brian's state, in the bluntest way possible, every single time I visit this forum, which is very often.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Agreed…. Might change to something else entirely but this should do for now

[Zenobi]

Thanks a lot Billy.

[Lonely Summer]

On Glen Campbell's final tour, he performed a few songs from Ghost on the Canvas. I'm sure he relied on the teleprompters for those songs.

Yes. It's also worth noting that he learned and recorded those songs during the early stages of Alzheimer's. So he was still capable of assimilating new musical material and retaining it during that stage of his illness.

 "I'm Not Gonna Miss You" was recorded after he was done touring and was of necessity simpler material, but he was still able to at least briefly retain the words and musical phrases and turn in a good performance.

The DVD from that tour is real inspiring in places, and just plain sad in others.
Sure wish some genius doctors could find a cure for Alzheimers.
And cancer.
And AIDS.
I don't want much, just the whole world.