Monkees Appreciation thread

[SMiLE-addict]

Ignore my California Dreaming example if you like. The Jethro Tull song is probably a better example anyway.

A disco song is largely defined by a particular beat. There's no particular melodic structure that defines a disco song, at least not that I'm aware of. The Monkees song (and Spaceman's other examples) on the other hand, do have melodies that are identifiable as Cabaret-style songs. I'm not even sure why this is in dispute.

Do people listen to "Matchbox" by The Beatles or "Baby Please Don't Go" by Them or "The House of The Rising Sun" by the Animals and say, "these are great 20s and 30s style songs"? Are they even aware of that?

You're actually starting to get it now, though maybe you don't realize it. *Some* people recognize those songs as older-style songs, some don't. Obviously you did, since you just listed them above! And *some* people will recognize Mother Goose as a Renaissance-style or Renaissance-inspired song, dressed up in modern clothes. As I said, it ultimately doesn't matter if people recognize them as such, as long as they like the song. But the fact is, these songs had greater appeal in large part because they were dressed up in modern clothes than they would have if the artists had used period instruments, period arrangements, etc. What I'm saying is, if Mike Nesmith had dressed up Magnolia Simms in modern clothes instead of doing a literal interpretation of a Cabaret-style song, it probably would have been a lot more popular song than it turned out to be.

However, if, as Spaceman noted, Nesmith didn't care about the song's popularity, it's probably a moot point.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Ignore my California Dreaming example if you like.

I'm not ignoring it. Your characterization of it as a blues song is simply false.

The Jethro Tull song is probably a better example anyway.

Not really. Those songs are not Renaissance songs that are disguised. Rather, Tull took elements of those Renaissance-era songs and placed them in their own songs. If anything, they are overtly in that style.

A disco song is largely defined by a particular beat. There's no particular melodic structure that defines a disco song, at least not that I'm aware of. The Monkees song (and Spaceman's other examples) on the other hand, do have melodies that are identifiable as Cabaret-style songs. I'm not even sure why this is in dispute.

Because what you are saying is false. There is no definitive Cabaret-style melody. The melodic patterns you could find in Cabaret songs you could also find in blues, jazz, folk, and, yes, rock and roll. So if you change the arrangement of Magnolia Simms, maybe someone could say that "underneath it all" you have a Cabaret song that has been modernized but it is equally likely that someone could say that you have a blues song that has been modernized or that you have a country song that has been modernized. Part of what allows you to identify Magnolia Simms as a Cabaret-style song in the first place is not simply the melody but the arrangement of the song.

You're actually starting to get it now, though maybe you don't realize it. *Some* people recognize those songs as older-style songs, some don't. Obviously you did, since you just listed them above!

Trust me, I "get" what you are saying. I just don't think it makes sense.

I can identify those songs as having an earlier origin because they are actually covers. Magnolia Simms is not a cover. It's a song designed to sound like a song from the 20s.

[I. Spaceman]

But, do you agree that Magnolia Simms might have been a better song given a more modernized, if still old-timey-tinged arrangement, instead of the novelty Winchester Cathedral trip? That is where I find myself agreeing with the addict.

[EgoHanger1966]

Would have been at least better had Nesmith not limited the sound to one channel of the stereo soundstage and added vinyl noise.

[SMiLE-addict]

There is no definitive Cabaret-style melody

I disagree. If the original writers and performers of "Those Were the Days My Friend" put it in a heavy metal arrangement instead, it would still obviously be a Cabaret-style melody. I'm sorry, but it's pretty obvious.

To take an even more extreme example, if someone took an Indian or Middle Eastern-style melody, and put it in a hard rock song, would it cease to be an Indian or Middle Eastern-style melody? No.

"I see a red door and I want to paint it black ..."
^
Is that not a recognizably Middle Eastern-style melody? Of course it is. The fact that it's put into a hard rock arrangement does not mean the melody has ceased to be a Middle Eastern-style melody. Some genres are simply identifiable by their melodies. Cabaret songs are one of those, IMO.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

But, do you agree that Magnolia Simms might have been a better song given a more modernized, if still old-timey-tinged arrangement, instead of the novelty Winchester Cathedral trip? That is where I find myself agreeing with the addict.

Personally, I do like the arrangement though I can understand your reservations. Nevertheless, I find it pretty interesting to hear a guy like Nesmith who at that time was perfecting his country sound to dabble in this other sound. He contributes some pretty heavy psych numbers to that album, so it's a nice little break from all that.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Is that not a recognizably Middle Eastern-style melody? Of course it is.

The difference is that rock and roll in the 60s was not a direct descendent from Middle Eastern music in the way that it was a direct descendent from the tradition of cabaret, jazz, blues, folk, and country, all of which had very similar roots.

[I. Spaceman]

But, do you agree that Magnolia Simms might have been a better song given a more modernized, if still old-timey-tinged arrangement, instead of the novelty Winchester Cathedral trip? That is where I find myself agreeing with the addict.

Personally, I do like the arrangement though I can understand your reservations. Nevertheless, I find it pretty interesting to hear a guy like Nesmith who at that time was perfecting his country sound to dabble in this other sound. He contributes some pretty heavy psych numbers to that album, so it's a nice little break from all that.

Yeah, I dig. My favorite bit of experimentation with this style in the Nesmith canon is his original production/vocal for Daddy's Song (tho I still would ultimately go with the released Jones version).

[I. Spaceman]

Oh yeah, forgot another hit song in the old-timey bag from this time period: The Monkees' own (awful) D.W. Washburn.

[SMiLE Brian]

Is that not a recognizably Middle Eastern-style melody? Of course it is.

The difference is that rock and roll in the 60s was not a direct descendent from Middle Eastern music in the way that it was a direct descendent from the tradition of cabaret, jazz, blues, folk, and country, all of which had very similar roots.

The only rock movement that really used Middle Eastern music directly was surf music with Dick Dale.

[SMiLE-addict]

I think I've found the ultimate Monkees guy on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/user/MisterMusicMan382/videos?view=0

[guitarfool2002]

Mike was a big fan of roaring 20's style dancehall 78's, and around 1967-68-69 it became somewhat of a retro trend to replicate that sound and style. Mike went all out, going as far as to make it sound like a scratchy 78rpm disc, which at that time was the only source for some of those recordings. The Beatles did it too, with Honey Pie. So it wasn't out of the ordinary or necessarily out of what was then something of a retro fad to have those kinds of sounds on a song.

One thing The Monkees had visually to further capture that was Davy Jones, who put on one hell of a show when given the straw hat, cane, and soft-shoe dance beat! Honestly, apart from the bridge and the Hell's Angels lyrical theme, "Cuddly Toy" being aired on TV as a Davy dance vehicle was a pretty early example of the band doing this sound...not to forget "I Can't Get Her Off My Mind" from HQ earlier in '67.

I'd compare it to the retro 80's thing which was raging in some mainstream pop and rock circles a few years ago...still bubbling under...where artists deliberately produced and wrote songs to sound like you'd hear them on FM top 40 radio in 1983.

[SMiLE-addict]

I discovered a version of it without any of the scratchy-record effects here (one of the videos from the guy I linked above).

I've listened to it a bunch more times and have gotten used to the retro sound. It has its own appeal, I suppose.

I also noticed nowhere online anywhere does anyone have guitar tabs for that song, so I started figuring it out myself last night. The verses were easy, but there's some hard-to-discern stuff going on in the refrain (the part that starts with "Walking ..."). Will post my thoughts on that later.

[SMiLE-addict]

I've finally gotten around to figuring out the rest of the chords for Magnolia Simms. Here goes...

The chords in the verses are actually just straightforward C-Dm-F-G-C (though I'm tempted to think there's an Am7 between the C and the Dm on the words "me," "pie," etc.). However, if you're playing guitar, it sounds a little more "right" if you capo up 3 and play it as A-Bm-D-E-A. Also, it's a bit easier to reach the 2 "end notes" in the refrain that way (those 2 "end notes" are C and G played on the 2 high strings on the 5th fret up from the capo). So I'll write the chords in "Capo up 3" mode.

A____________Bm________________
Love to me is blue-eyed and blonde
D_________E_________A___
Oh, that's sweet Magnolia
A_______________Bm_____________
Apple pie on the window still warm
D_________E________A____
That's my sweet Magnolia

Refrain
Am_____________A_____(hold chord + 2 end notes)
Walking under a sky that's so blue
Am___________A___(hold chord + 2 end notes)
After rain has fallen
Am___________________A___(hold chord + 2 end notes)
When she's walking so close by my side
Am_________F#m____Bm________E7__(hold chord)
My troubles seem to just run and hide

(repeat verse chords)
(la-dee, da-dum, etc.)

Refrain
Am__________________A_____(hold chord + 2 end notes)
Well, walking under a sky that's so blue
Am___________A___(hold chord + 2 end notes)
After rain has fallen
Am___________________A___(hold chord + 2 end notes)
When she's walking so close by my side
Am_________F#m____Bm________E7__(hold chord)
My troubles seem to just run and hide

A________________Bm__________
Magnolia Simms is my little doll
D______E_______A_____
I can't live without her
A_________________Bm_____________
For if she goes my world will just fall
D_________E_______A____
Stay with me, Magnolia

The nifty feature of the song are the first words of each (odd numbered) line of both the verses and the refrain ("Love," "App-," in the verses; "Walk-" and "Aft-" in the refrain): They're actually all the same notes, but just listening to it, the notes in the refrain *sound* like a different note because the underlying chord is the relative minor. Nice little trick which sets the listener on edge a bit.

Fun song to play on the guitar, too!

[Awesoman]

No matter what you think of the early politics of 'playing their own instruments' or writing their own songs, you have to admit that first Monkees about is fantastic! It's prolly one of the better first albums by my favorite artists. I recently downloaded their discography, I originally owned Head  (album and movie), but I'm loving their stuff, Birds Bees Monkees is really good...and Headquarters, to me is like their Rubber Soul, it's fantastic. Shame a lot of their later albums are by half of them.

The hits that the Monkees produced (or moreso their songwriters wrote for them) were great.  I've listened to some of their "album cuts" and I have to say...they're sh*t.  Not that impressive and the hoardes of bootlegs and what not dedicated to this band is redundant. 

[Lonely Summer]

Sorry you feel that way. I love nearly everything that Nez wrote and sang; my all-time fav Monkees song is "For Pete's Sake" written by Mr. Tork.