[Pet Sounds]

One person I really feel for is Marilyn. She had the toughest task possible in dealing with Brian back then, and yes, as a young rock star wife with kids to raise, she might have made some errors in an impossible situation.

John, this summarizes dozens of conversations that I've had with Marilyn in one sentence -- something I couldn't (and wouldn't) have done myself.  Well done mate!

Lee

The thing about Marilyn that goes right by most people is that she was so young: 16 when they married, 18 during Pet Sounds, 19 when Smile foundered. The Dutch escapade ? 24, with two children aged three and two...

And 30 when this was going down.
Look, she had a really rough time of it but she also did some things that were really wrong.
As did everyone else in this story.

Emily - the thing about Marilyn is that for about 12 years she had to have been "worn down" by all of this. Maybe since things got very chaotic when she was about 18 as Andrew says she was, during Pet Sounds.    

And, reading "between the lines" with this, she was looking at multiple responsibilities and stressors.  First, the kids, second, the husband, third, the record company exerting pressure for record production by the band, who came on deck in a big way with Wild Honey and 20/20; I find both to be very cool albums.  

So, Marilyn made (maybe with or without counsel) an "off the grid" decision.  She may have been convinced or persuaded that an "off the grid" treatment plan was, in what was perhaps judged then as to be in everyone's best interest.  The author has stated that Marilyn threatened "inpatient" treatment.  It would have rendered Brian "unavailable" to fulfill production deadlines.  People make statements when they are exasperated. We don't know the context as readers of what was written in this thread.  

No one gets out of this life without making a ton of mistakes.  Unfortunately Marilyn's "alleged" mistakes are becoming fodder for public discussion.  It is too bad.  I don't need to read the intimate details of someone's life told with soap operatic detail and her life held up to a microscope.  

And, I don't like the "curious timing" of this "release" at a time when so much positive stuff has been happening this past year, on all fronts.   What happens in Vegas should stay in Vegas.  

Whoa, awfully conspiratorial of you pledge.  Reminds me of claims made about the similarly suspicious announcement of the release of Mike's book.  Wasn't it timed not too long after the break up of C50 and the announcement of Love & Mercy?  In fact, isn't it's release coming soon?

EoL

EoL - what does a purported release of a book of a "bit player" have to do with a release of a book of a "principal" of the band? 

Pledge: how is the suspicious timing of a book release negated because the author is a principal instead of a bit player?  Maybe one is riding coat tails for money and one is doing it to re-write history, but suspicious timing is suspicious timing.  You can't poo poo one and not the other.  Well, you can, it just betrays your bias when you do.

EoL

[Pet Sounds]

One person I really feel for is Marilyn. She had the toughest task possible in dealing with Brian back then, and yes, as a young rock star wife with kids to raise, she might have made some errors in an impossible situation.

John, this summarizes dozens of conversations that I've had with Marilyn in one sentence -- something I couldn't (and wouldn't) have done myself.  Well done mate!

Lee

The thing about Marilyn that goes right by most people is that she was so young: 16 when they married, 18 during Pet Sounds, 19 when Smile foundered. The Dutch escapade ? 24, with two children aged three and two...

And 30 when this was going down.
Look, she had a really rough time of it but she also did some things that were really wrong.
As did everyone else in this story.

Emily - the thing about Marilyn is that for about 12 years she had to have been "worn down" by all of this. Maybe since things got very chaotic when she was about 18 as Andrew says she was, during Pet Sounds.    

And, reading "between the lines" with this, she was looking at multiple responsibilities and stressors.  First, the kids, second, the husband, third, the record company exerting pressure for record production by the band, who came on deck in a big way with Wild Honey and 20/20; I find both to be very cool albums.  

So, Marilyn made (maybe with or without counsel) an "off the grid" decision.  She may have been convinced or persuaded that an "off the grid" treatment plan was, in what was perhaps judged then as to be in everyone's best interest.  The author has stated that Marilyn threatened "inpatient" treatment.  It would have rendered Brian "unavailable" to fulfill production deadlines.  People make statements when they are exasperated. We don't know the context as readers of what was written in this thread.  

No one gets out of this life without making a ton of mistakes.  Unfortunately Marilyn's "alleged" mistakes are becoming fodder for public discussion.  It is too bad.  I don't need to read the intimate details of someone's life told with soap operatic detail and her life held up to a microscope.  

And, I don't like the "curious timing" of this "release" at a time when so much positive stuff has been happening this past year, on all fronts.   What happens in Vegas should stay in Vegas.  

Whoa, awfully conspiratorial of you pledge.  Reminds me of claims made about the similarly suspicious announcement of the release of Mike's book.  Wasn't it timed not too long after the break up of C50 and the announcement of Love & Mercy?  In fact, isn't it's release coming soon?

EoL

Have you had enough yet, Rocky?

Your first mistake, other than coming on this board, was...you roughed up the wrong Beach Boy! If you would've slugged Mike Love, you could've guaranteed at least a 75 page thread, been declared the conquering hero, and asked back anytime. Instead, you went after somebody supplying a mentally ill, drug addicted, vulnerable Brian Wilson with drugs, his brother no less. Leave Dennis alone. But, somebody who was, um, insensitive to Brian Wilson? Now dem's fightin' words!

Somebody mentioned you sleeping with Marilyn Wilson. You can't get away with that, Rocky. What songs did you write? Look, Brian Wilson can have an affair with his wife's sister - while he's still married - because he didn't really know what he was doing (wink, wink) and, hey, he had a God-given talent for writing beautiful music. And Dennis, The Golden Penetrator! He supposedly slept with ALL the Beach Boys' wives. Yep, Dennis was the man. But, hey, isn't "Cuddle Up" a beautiful song, and Pacific Ocean Blue, wow... That's right, Rocky, come back when YOU'VE written some beautiful music.

Finally, Rocky, thank you for your efforts in keeping drugs away from Brian Wilson. Your story about Brian Wilson offering drugs to his two young daughters was harrowing. I have this terrible picture of Carnie and Wendy dead, and Brian Wilson arrested for double manslaughter, spending the rest of his life institutionalized, and Marilyn's life, and many other lives shattered. But, we don't want to go there. It's too painful. I have a confession to make. If some thirty-four year-old man offered drugs to my young daughters, I think I'd either go after him physically - or have him arrested. I don't care what songs he wrote. But, let's focus on right crosses and left hooks instead. Remember, Rock, there's a lot of love in Pet Sounds, and that trumps everything.

Well, at least now we know which faction turns every thread into a Brian v Mike thread, and it isn't the faction that contains Smile Brian and OSD.  Just when those two began to behave SJS comes out of the shadows and, as per usual, is shortly thereafter supported by Mike's Beard and Cam Mott.

As has been stated as nauseum on this board, Mike doesn't get a pass because he never admits guilt and never shoulders any of the blame.  Brian, on the other hand, never makes his drug use or mental problems an excuse and instead admits he was wrong.  In this regard Mike is the worst kind of arrogant and by his own actions makes Brian look like the good guy in comparison.  Ironic, isn't it?

EoL

Hey guys just posted a new track- Celebrate Love Tonight....lots of harmonies in this one. check the end for some moving lines in a 4 part

https://soundcloud.com/jonahlustig/celebrate-love-tonight

I like it, definite potential.  Some slight Love You-ness to it.  Post more once you've written and recorded more.

Thanks for sharing.

EoL

I'm no fan of repetitive posts that only contain snide remarks.  But for those of you calling for OSD and SB to be banned, which of the following board rules, specifically, have they violated?  For which of these rules are you calling GF's integrity into question:

Rules and Guidelines - read this before posting
« on: December 23, 2005, 08:41:53 PM »
Thanks for visiting the Smiley Smile message board. Here are a few guidelines to help everything run smoothly:

1) Joe, SMiLE-Holland, Guitarfool,  and  Billy C moderate the board.  They share that responsibility across the entire board.  In the few and rare times a member crosses the line, they will be able to remove or edit posts, and ban members if necessary.  Any complaints about a member or a post should be directed to them.  If after contacting them you are not satisfied, you then should contact me.  They, however, should always be your first line of contact concerning this board, and you will find I intend to support them in their roles.

2) Treat others as you want to be treated. Think about what you are saying before you post a message. Lift each other up, don't tear each other down. Harassment of members is not tolerated. Please behave and not be an embarrassment to the good name of Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys.  But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.  1Peter 1:15-16

3) Talking about bootlegs is fine. Posting messages asking for bootlegs or offering bootlegs is not fine. That's what private messages and emails are for. The same of course applies to official recordings.

4) Yes, most of what would commonly be considered foul language is edited.  Currently, that means it's translated to Portuguese, though the method of filtering may change without notice.   If this bothers you, keep in mind rule #1.

5) If you feel the need to discuss a PM you received with a third party, then don't expect your PMs to be very private, either. If you don't want someone sending you a PM, or someone doing anything in particular, tell them. Don't wait for or expect someone to speak up for you. If the party in question doesn't listen, go to a moderator about it.   Private messages will not be read by a moderator unless warranted by the behavior of a board member.  Anyone who becomes a cause for concern due to rude or abusive behavior may have their accounts temporarily frozen and their private and public messages examined to see what final actions should be taken.  Said action may be anything from a warning to a temporary or permanent ban.  The moderators will discuss and announce the action that is taken.  Any unwanted or improper private messages should be immediately reported to one of the moderators.

5.5)  Do not post contents of private messages on the board without permission from the sender. 'Private' means exactly that.

6) Flirtatious and suggestive discussions are usually misunderstood and thus not welcome here..

7) Please, no pictures in signatures.

Unregistered guests may continue to read messages here, but they will be unable to post messages anywhere on the board.  If you want to participate, and we hope you do, you will need to register.

9) Forum moderation policy (at moderator's discretion, also includes requests for "Private Messages" with regards to bootleg trading)

First offense - Banned for 7 days (a week)
Second offense - Banned for 30 days (a month)
Third offense - Permanent ban and account deletion (forever)

In extreme cases, a first or second offense may be grounds for a permanent ban...again, at the discretion of the mod involved.

Of course, the main site is available at www.smileysmile.net.

These guidelines will change from time to time, so check back here often. Thank you!

EoL

Dear Rab,

WTF is this?  I thought we agreed, NO FUKKING WITH THE FORMULA?

Sincerely,

Mike Love

I just hope no one gets suspended ,like that time with Brian, for all of these claims that Mike might have used Autotune. We don't need that so close to the Holidays. (thousand yard stare)

Cam - Who got suspended? Give me a name.

No one I hope.

So what was your point, Cam?  I'm trying to follow this...

That I hope people don't get as upset about opinions regarding Autotune on Mike's song as they got about opinions regarding Autotune on Brian's songs. So far they aren't so I guess we are good.

Upset?  Your original post said nothing at all about people getting upset - it is quoted in this very post, in case you've forgotten.  You originally posted about people being suspended over the autotune issue, then you were called out on it.  Now you are changing your (auto)tune, in fairly typical Cam Mott fashion, I might add.

Sophistry of the lowest order.

EoL

Let's sort out a definition of science and faith first, then we can tackle the other stuff

Loaf,

I want to continue this discussion but I'm unbelievably tied up.  I'll try to post in the next day or so.

EoL

Science is a religion.

That's only said by people who don't work in science

Most people trapped inside a cult are unaware of it, so no surprise. 

"lol".

I don't understand why so many Americans are afraid of science. Care to share?

I'm not sure what you mean, but if you explain it to me, I'll try to answer.

I don't know why you stated that scientists are trapped inside a cult. Using that language makes it seem that you don't understand scientific research or scientific principles beyond a tabloid level.

And if your understanding of science is at a tabloid level, then you'll likely only have registered the scientific headlines that cover breakthroughs (such as "Miracle Cure for Cancer on the Horizon") or the scare stories.

And based on your siding with TRBB, i'd guess that the scare stories have registered strongest with you, so I asked what it is that you might be scared of?

I'm also assuming that you are (culturally) American, but you didn't correct me on that.

If we define science as observation and measurement, and if we define faith as believing what someone else has told us, then what I would like for you to see is that most of what people claim they believe on the basis of science they in fact believe on the basis of faith.  I'll make the point this way, in regards to topics such as global warming, the age of the universe, does God exist, etc, what percentage do you believe based on observation and measurement and what percentage do you believe based on what someone else has told you?  You see, I don't understand why so many people, European, American, Candian, Chinese, Russian, are afraid to acknowledge that most of what they believe in regards to such issues is based on what someone else has told them, on faith, and not on observation and measurement, science. 

Now perhaps you are a scienctist and you have dated fossils and rocks and measured ground temperatures and what not.  If that is the case I would ask you a slightly different set of questions, this time in regards to your pre-suppositions.  To do this I would need to know a bit more about your philosophical views, your epistemology, in particular, and your ontology.  Are you a realist or an idealist?  Are you naturalist?  Your appeal to science leads me to believe you are at least a moderate realist, but I am willing to bet there are neo-platonic idealist presuppositions hidden throughout your view of the world.  I won't try to ferret them out, but if I spy one I will let you know.  Regardless, once your presuppositions are considered it will become clear that you, too, believe far more based on what you have been told (in regards to these issues) than on observation and measurement.

With that said, I am still confounded in regards to your statement about people being afraid of science.  I've met people who are set in their ways and won't consider reasoned argument, but I've found just as many on the science side of the fence as I have on the "afraid of science" side of the fence.  No matter which side of the fence most people are on they consider those on the other side to be unreasonable, illogical, etc...all the while blind to their own presuppositions, biases, poorly reasoned arguments, etc.  Each side resorts to logical fallacies, mockery, and shouting down the other side rather than reasoned discussion.  I won't be surpised if this thread goes in the same direction.

EoL

Science is a religion.

That's only said by people who don't work in science

Most people trapped inside a cult are unaware of it, so no surprise. 

"lol".

I don't understand why so many Americans are afraid of science. Care to share?

I'm not sure what you mean, but if you explain it to me, I'll try to answer.

Science is a religion.

That's only said by people who don't work in science

Most people trapped inside a cult are unaware of it, so no surprise. 

Pray tell, what cult am I trapped within? Apparently I've not been made aware of this.

I was agreeing with you TRBB.

Science is a religion.

That's only said by people who don't work in science

Most people trapped inside a cult are unaware of it, so no surprise. 

Well, we've gone from the joys of SIP to trying to put an asterisks next to the record of a homerun hit without the BBs' star player to imaginary insults. Well done everybody. (slow clap)

SIP a homerun? I don't know what you're smoking  Cam  but I'd really like to get some.   

Kokomo is the homerun.

OK...It's 2015.  Things have changed.  It's been a LONG time since Carl and Dennis were more than memories added up on the video screen at a Beach Boys show.  It's been eons since Kokomo and SIP...and WAY longer than that for everything else except for TWGMTR which was hardly an across the board/one in every home hit album.  3 weeks ago LAST night I went to see the Beach Boys.  The crowd although predominantly 'older' [50s-70s] also included loads of folks in their 20s, 30s and 40s...and the song which seemed to be MOST appreciated by the majority of the people in attendance?  I'd say that very clearly it was Kokomo.  First time I've seen that but then I haven't seen the Beach Boys live since Carl passed away.  Obviously it wouldn't be an 'item' at a Brian show.  Kokomo and Barbara Ann might have been the biggest tunes in terms of audience response.

But, and I have to keep reminding myself of this FACT.  A Beach Boys show...Mike and Bruce et al...is a P A R T Y.  And it works...BIG time.

I believe that Kokomo received the biggest response in Cincinnati for C50 as well.  I wasn't surprised because I think most people like the Beach Boys for the fun, as you indicated.  That isn't my experience so I can't relate (I like the summer/surf stuff, but not because it's fun).  I wish more people liked music for reasons other than fun, perhaps then we wouldn't have the crapola we have on the radio today, but it is what it is.  Lots of people like Stamos and Barbara Ann and Kokomo.  What can I say, I don't fit in in a lot of other ways either.

EoL

Maybe I am off the mark here, but I listen to what I like and what I like is fun for me. I have fun listening to music, even if it is in a traffic jam at rush hour. While I kind of get where you were going with your remark, understand that when people go to concerts, they expect to have fun, even at Brian Wilson concerts.  

I understand what you are saying.  I wouldn't say I listen to music for fun.  I'm not even sure I have fun while listening.  Maybe.  It's more of a personal and emotional experience.  I'm not sure I can define it, but I'm pretty sure I would not describe it as fun.  There are exceptions, I have been to concerts I would describe as fun (for myself).  This usually involved stage diving or some sort of fist-pumping rebellion against one form of purported authority or another.  It was fun, but only because I was releasing a deeper angst or emotion.  It was not "innocent fun" like I suppose my children are having when we go to an amusement park.

To each his own.  I don't have dancing-in-the-aisles fun at a Beach Boys concert, I'm too reserved for that (my stage diving days are long over, that behavior was an anomaly).  But I realize many do, and that is what Mike appeals to, I get it.  I think Brian appreciates this as well, but I think there is a greater depth with Brian.  I relate much more to this perceived depth than the fun, fun, fun.

EoL

I never took myself that seriously to feel that way, except for certain songs like IJWMFTT that struck a nerve. Most probably why I prefer upbeat, faster type songs over ballads and slower introspective type songs. Remember, with Brian, he wrote all that stuff. Throughout his career he touched on all facets of feelings and emotions that one goes through growing up. That is the main reason for me loving the Beach Boys; they hit on all emotions that I was going through growing up. I feel quite fortunate to have it in my life, still do.

I get where you are coming from, and I have in no way experienced the depths of pain that Brian Wilson has, so I don't mean I can relate to the extent of his despair.  But for whatever reason his music strikes a chord with me and, as I've said before, the "happy" songs are sometimes as sad for me as the sad songs.

Well, we've gone from the joys of SIP to trying to put an asterisks next to the record of a homerun hit without the BBs' star player to imaginary insults. Well done everybody. (slow clap)

SIP a homerun? I don't know what you're smoking   Cam   but I'd really like to get some.    

Kokomo is the homerun.

OK...It's 2015.  Things have changed.  It's been a LONG time since Carl and Dennis were more than memories added up on the video screen at a Beach Boys show.  It's been eons since Kokomo and SIP...and WAY longer than that for everything else except for TWGMTR which was hardly an across the board/one in every home hit album.  3 weeks ago LAST night I went to see the Beach Boys.  The crowd although predominantly 'older' [50s-70s] also included loads of folks in their 20s, 30s and 40s...and the song which seemed to be MOST appreciated by the majority of the people in attendance?  I'd say that very clearly it was Kokomo.  First time I've seen that but then I haven't seen the Beach Boys live since Carl passed away.  Obviously it wouldn't be an 'item' at a Brian show.  Kokomo and Barbara Ann might have been the biggest tunes in terms of audience response.

But, and I have to keep reminding myself of this FACT.  A Beach Boys show...Mike and Bruce et al...is a P A R T Y.  And it works...BIG time.

I believe that Kokomo received the biggest response in Cincinnati for C50 as well.  I wasn't surprised because I think most people like the Beach Boys for the fun, as you indicated.  That isn't my experience so I can't relate (I like the summer/surf stuff, but not because it's fun).  I wish more people liked music for reasons other than fun, perhaps then we wouldn't have the crapola we have on the radio today, but it is what it is.  Lots of people like Stamos and Barbara Ann and Kokomo.  What can I say, I don't fit in in a lot of other ways either.

EoL

Maybe I am off the mark here, but I listen to what I like and what I like is fun for me. I have fun listening to music, even if it is in a traffic jam at rush hour. While I kind of get where you were going with your remark, understand that when people go to concerts, they expect to have fun, even at Brian Wilson concerts.  

I understand what you are saying.  I wouldn't say I listen to music for fun.  I'm not even sure I have fun while listening.  Maybe.  It's more of a personal and emotional experience.  I'm not sure I can define it, but I'm pretty sure I would not describe it as fun.  There are exceptions, I have been to concerts I would describe as fun (for myself).  This usually involved stage diving or some sort of fist-pumping rebellion against one form of purported authority or another.  It was fun, but only because I was releasing a deeper angst or emotion.  It was not "innocent fun" like I suppose my children are having when we go to an amusement park.

To each his own.  I don't have dancing-in-the-aisles fun at a Beach Boys concert, I'm too reserved for that (my stage diving days are long over, that behavior was an anomaly).  But I realize many do, and that is what Mike appeals to, I get it.  I think Brian appreciates this as well, but I think there is a greater depth with Brian.  I relate much more to this perceived depth than the fun, fun, fun.

EoL

Could the Beach Boys, as they were constituted in 1992, have produced a good album under any conditions? Is Mike to blame for thinking they could? What would have been the ideal alternative to SIP?

I'm of the opinion that, yes, a good album could have been produced. They could've gone along with Mike's idea and filled in the gaps. Brian hadn't released a solo album in four years and had enough songs stockpiled. Maybe he could've provided three or four of them to The Beach Boys:

01  Mike & Terry - Island Fever
02  Mike & Terry - Still Surfin'
03  Mike & Terry - Strange Things Happen
04  Mike & Terry - Lahaina Aloha
05  Mike & Terry - Summer In Paradise

06  Brian - The Spirit Of Rock And Roll
07  Brian - Don't Let Her Know She's An Angel
08  Brian - Rainbow Eyes

09  Oldie - Hot Fun In The Summertime
10  Oldie - Under The Boardwalk

11  Carl - ?
12  Al - Don't Fight The Sea
13  Bruce - Slow Summer Dancin' (One Summer Night)

Pick any three Brian songs, they're better than the songs you're eliminating (Summer Of Love, Remember Walking In The Sand, and Surfin'). I don't mind keeping "Forever"; I think it's a good cover, Carl sings his heart out, and Stamos was very popular at that time. Anybody for the Spanish version of "Kokomo"? Anyway, just the additions, and more importantly the subtractions, make it a stronger album, even respectable.

But the premise of the question is " as they were constituted in 1992" -- that is, with Brian not involved. (Do we know the full story behind why he wasn't? Too soon after Landy?) If they had waited a year, yes this new and improved SIP might have been possible.

But really, does your revised track listing constitute a "good" album? I'd rank it on the same level as BB'85 -- not good, exactly, but a step up from KTSA-like mediocrity. B minus, maybe? C plus?

My conclusion is that the 1992 version of the band needed outside help in order to produce a good album, a hit album. Don Was producing? Song doctors? Aerosmith wasn't above bringing in songwriting pros to help out Steven Tyler and Joe Perry in the 90's.
 
I blame Mike only for trying to do what could not be done.

Well, as I posted earlier, when it was determined that - for whatever reason - Brian would not be participating, the project should've been shelved, or, as you stated, put on hold UNTIL Brian did come around. Frankly, I'm surprised that the project did get the green light, but I also gave my reason WHY I thought it was ultimately approved by BRI.

I think my revised track listing is "good" at best. I wouldn't go any further than that because it lacks great songs. I can understand why some would say "mediocre", but by eliminating some tracks you escape "bad".

We can guess why Brian didn't participate on SIP but it would be nice to know definitively (which is sometimes impossible with Brian) because during Landy's second stay, with the exception of "Kokomo", Brian participated in some degree on most of The Beach Boys' projects including singles, albums, TV appearances, TV series, etc.

So we are back to uncertainty now?

EoL

Well, we've gone from the joys of SIP to trying to put an asterisks next to the record of a homerun hit without the BBs' star player to imaginary insults. Well done everybody. (slow clap)

SIP a homerun? I don't know what you're smoking   Cam   but I'd really like to get some.    

Kokomo is the homerun.

OK...It's 2015.  Things have changed.  It's been a LONG time since Carl and Dennis were more than memories added up on the video screen at a Beach Boys show.  It's been eons since Kokomo and SIP...and WAY longer than that for everything else except for TWGMTR which was hardly an across the board/one in every home hit album.  3 weeks ago LAST night I went to see the Beach Boys.  The crowd although predominantly 'older' [50s-70s] also included loads of folks in their 20s, 30s and 40s...and the song which seemed to be MOST appreciated by the majority of the people in attendance?  I'd say that very clearly it was Kokomo.  First time I've seen that but then I haven't seen the Beach Boys live since Carl passed away.  Obviously it wouldn't be an 'item' at a Brian show.  Kokomo and Barbara Ann might have been the biggest tunes in terms of audience response.

But, and I have to keep reminding myself of this FACT.  A Beach Boys show...Mike and Bruce et al...is a P A R T Y.  And it works...BIG time.

I guess it does, as an oldies/nostalgia show. Me, I prefer the rock pop jewels  of Pet Sounds and after. If Paul and Ringo were touring as the Beatles doing 80% pre 1966 songs, they'd be crucified.
             I Can Hear Music. .........

I think this is a great analogy.  It seems to me Brian saw where things were going in the mid 60s and sought to stay ahead of the curve.  Regardless of the reason that didn't work out.  At some point Mike gave up/realized that without Brian leading the way he had two choices: hang it up or Endless Summer.

EoL

Well, we've gone from the joys of SIP to trying to put an asterisks next to the record of a homerun hit without the BBs' star player to imaginary insults. Well done everybody. (slow clap)

SIP a homerun? I don't know what you're smoking  Cam  but I'd really like to get some.    

Kokomo is the homerun.

OK...It's 2015.  Things have changed.  It's been a LONG time since Carl and Dennis were more than memories added up on the video screen at a Beach Boys show.  It's been eons since Kokomo and SIP...and WAY longer than that for everything else except for TWGMTR which was hardly an across the board/one in every home hit album.  3 weeks ago LAST night I went to see the Beach Boys.  The crowd although predominantly 'older' [50s-70s] also included loads of folks in their 20s, 30s and 40s...and the song which seemed to be MOST appreciated by the majority of the people in attendance?  I'd say that very clearly it was Kokomo.  First time I've seen that but then I haven't seen the Beach Boys live since Carl passed away.  Obviously it wouldn't be an 'item' at a Brian show.  Kokomo and Barbara Ann might have been the biggest tunes in terms of audience response.

But, and I have to keep reminding myself of this FACT.  A Beach Boys show...Mike and Bruce et al...is a P A R T Y.  And it works...BIG time.

I believe that Kokomo received the biggest response in Cincinnati for C50 as well.  I wasn't surprised because I think most people like the Beach Boys for the fun, as you indicated.  That isn't my experience so I can't relate (I like the summer/surf stuff, but not because it's fun).  I wish more people liked music for reasons other than fun, perhaps then we wouldn't have the crapola we have on the radio today, but it is what it is.  Lots of people like Stamos and Barbara Ann and Kokomo.  What can I say, I don't fit in in a lot of other ways either.

EoL

...or something like that.

 

https://soundcloud.com/smilead/whatever-happened-brian-wilson-cover

I really like it man, good job.  I'd like to hear it with more Hal Blaine-style drums...

Good idea. https://soundcloud.com/smilead/whatever-happened-brian-wilson-cover-version-2

Thanks guys, glad u dig it!

Bonus points to whoever figures out where I got the drums from

It sounds much better with drums!

I mostly agree with the Sheriff, but what he maybe misses is that there is something comic about misplaced confidence. There is an impression of Mike rubbing his hands together and saying,  "Don't worry boys, I've got this covered" -- and then falling on his ass.

No, I'm not missing that. I admitted above that some of Mike's ideas warrant criticism. But Summer In Paradise isn't one of them. It was the implementation of the concept that fell on its ass, and I don't blame Mike for that. You admitted above, and I agree with you, that "the Love/Melcher songs were perfectly fine complementary numbers". When Brian decided that he was "out", the project should've been nixed. But it wasn't. It was approved by the group. Why? Could one of the answers start with the letter m and end with the letter y?

Whoa.  Above you asked how do we know Brian wasn't asked to be a part of SIP, now you are asserting that it was his choice?  Did I miss a step?  Was this proven somewhere in-between your two posts?

EoL

...or something like that.

 

https://soundcloud.com/smilead/whatever-happened-brian-wilson-cover

I really like it man, good job.  I'd like to hear it with more Hal Blaine-style drums...

Great psych-pop/Association feel.  I like it.

EoL

It seems to me that around the time of the Smile Sessions and C50 that Mike's story began to change in regards to cost Sounds and Smile.  At the very least it seems to me he was silent for many many years.  I am wondering if anyone has insight as to why?

That Mike wanted grown-up music does not prove that he wanted Pet Sounds and Smile. It's another non sequitur. That Mike did his job by recording and re-recording vocals it does not follow that he supported Pet Sounds and Smile. Yet another non sequitur. So aside from three non-Sequitur arguments I don't really see any evidence you have provided. I do however see a lot of evidence you have ignored.

EoL

["But Brian would come in, and he would want to do different things, and they would really balk at that; and again, I have to keep thinking that this is the problem with what's going on right now. Sooner or later it has to tire you out, and Brian would complain about it. It would be much easier for Brian to go in and lay all those voices out himself, and do all those things; there's a lot of things on Pet Sounds that uh, incredible vocal things that are all Brian's voices, because he can sing all their parts. But he would go through a tremendous paranoia before he would get into the studio, knowing he was going to have to face an argument. He would come into the studio uptight, he would give a part to one of the fellas or to a group of the fellas, say "This is what I would like to have done," and there would be resistance. And it wouldn't be happening and there would be endless takes and then he would just junk it. And then maybe after they left to tour he would come back in and do it himself. All their parts. But it was very taxing, and it was extremely painful to watch. Because it was, uh, a great wall had been put down in front of creativity. And now, maybe, he just doesn't want to fight anymore. It used to be a big fight thing in that studio, and he just may be damn well tired of fighting and having to give the parts to the guys and hearing their excuses why they don't want to do it this way or why they want to do it that way...that could very easily be it."]

How many ways are there to "interpret" this description? It's as clear as can be about the scenes with the Beach Boys and Brian in the studio and the effect it had on Brian and the process overall. Unless someone is willing to discredit or dismiss what David Anderle said here, this doesn't need interpretation or someone to help other fans "understand" it unless the goal is to parse his words to fit another definition. And that doesn't exactly work when the words were spoken this clearly:

David Anderle, one example out of many as told to Williams: "But Brian would come in, and he would want to do different things, and they would really balk at that; and again, I have to keep thinking that this is the problem with what's going on right now. Sooner or later it has to tire you out, and Brian would complain about it. It would be much easier for Brian to go in and lay all those voices out himself, and do all those things; there's a lot of things on Pet Sounds that uh, incredible vocal things that are all Brian's voices, because he can sing all their parts. But he would go through a tremendous paranoia before he would get into the studio, knowing he was going to have to face an argument. He would come into the studio uptight, he would give a part to one of the fellas or to a group of the fellas, say "This is what I would like to have done," and there would be resistance. And it wouldn't be happening and there would be endless takes and then he would just junk it. And then maybe after they left to tour he would come back in and do it himself. All their parts. But it was very taxing, and it was extremely painful to watch. Because it was, uh, a great wall had been put down in front of creativity. And now, maybe, he just doesn't want to fight anymore. It used to be a big fight thing in that studio, and he just may be damn well tired of fighting and having to give the parts to the guys and hearing their excuses why they don't want to do it this way or why they want to do it that way...that could very easily be it."

Anderle explains this here I think:

“And then he brought them into the studio, and they were hearing things they never heard before. Not only were they hearing things they'd never heard from Brian, but also you've got to remember that none of this Beatles stuff was happening then. There was no way to relate to what Brian was putting down. That's when he started meeting resistance from the Beach Boys. "Brian, what are you ... what is this? What are you doing? This is not within our framework, you're going too far now, Brian, this is too experimental. I can't sing this part." In one specific song Brian wanted to sing the lead, but it was almost promised to Mike. And Mike couldn't cut it the way Brian wanted it to be cut, although Mike was cutting it beautifully. But it still wasn't right, and Brian wanted to do it ... they went through an incredible amount of time, almost a whole week of wasted studio time, before Brian finally did it. Brian didn't know how to deal with the boys.”

And here:

“Well, the first thing Brian will come up with is a concept, an album concept; generally he wants to do a thing. I say "a thing" because it's, you don't really know what it is, he throws out a whole bunch of words at you, one-liners, and words and half-phrases, and you really don't know what he's talking about at all. All you know is to go along with it. The Beach Boys could walk into a session and not have the slightest idea what they're recording that night. He tells them what to record, and they do it. They don't know what it means, generally, and that was always a problem, too. We're gonna do a piece of this, and a piece of that, a fragment, and they would do it, as instruments.”

I would say that’s why the Boys had these questions and concerns "Brian, what are you ... what is this? What are you doing? This is not within our framework, you're going too far now, Brian, this is too experimental. I can't sing this part.”

Somehow Anderle’s statement about “big fight thing” has to be harmonized with his other statement about “not antagonistic”. A non-antagonistic big fight thing somehow. On the other hand we know regardless of whatever “resistance” amounted to “He tells them what to record, and they do it” was done.

Vosse said:

“So all of these tracks had been done at Western and everything was ready, and the Beach Boys returned from their triumphant English tour - and the whole thing started going nuts then. First three sessions with the group were just full of confusion, because what Brian would do was give them a bit at a time: he didn't like teach them a song; he used them as instruments: he'd teach Mike Love one little part, and somebody else this, that, and the other ... Then
he'd spend about three days recording and recording and recording to get one song right; then he'd finish with it, tell them everything was fine - and two days later, he'd go back in alone, take out the voice track of say Carl which wasn't right, and he'd put his own voice in instead; and then he'd dabble with somebody
else's - and before you knew it, it was almost all Brian.  Al Jardine, though, did a lot of good singing at that time - really good singing. And Mike Love always comes through very well on what it is he does, which is pretty limited.  Then, the guys started getting up tight about the material. They were worried about how they'd do it in person. Now they're orchestrated, but even then Brian was considering a full orchestra to back them up ... and that sort of forestalled things a little: they thought it might be a good idea. Then, tension developed in the studio, because what it came down to was that Brian and Van Dyke had come up with music a little too complex for them, and which they began to resent. A lot of the arguments that took place were between Brian and Mike Love. And a lot of people would go off into comers together - the sure sign that a group is in trouble: where you have two over in this half, and two other there at the same time - huddling, and saying: hey, you know, this fucking thing ... There was a lot of that.”

Vosse describes confusion, not “resistance”, from giving the Boys just a bit at a time and tension and resentment over the music’s complexity and arguments between Brian and Mike. Vosse also says Brian and Mike disagreed and then agreed. Again still singing good and doing it take after take after take. Vosse elaborates on Anderle adding Brian tells the Boys their singing is “fine”.  

Vosse's characterization of "confusion" (reasonable under the circumstances) is far less "dramatic" than, Anderle's of  "resistance" to this concept of a voice used as an instrument, as opposed to straight vocals.  It seems closer to the truth.

And their "realities" were different.  Brian was looking at studio product and the band were likely looking at "how do we (5 guys) translate" what is going to be recorded and submitted to the record company and then, "take this out on the road" and get it arranged so it would be manageable on the road.  

For what reason does it seem closer to the truth, other than the fact that you say so?  I must have missed your reason.

EoL

What makes sense to me, and my analysis of what I've read is not subject to anyone's  approval.

Well I suspected that's all it was.  You should have said "it seems to me closer to the truth", given that's what you meant and you provided zero evidence to support the conclusion.
EoL

Well, I've provided YouTube and other documentary evidence from that era.  The record company's refusal to promote the "actual grown-up Beach Boys." Dennis' nterview, with Fornatale, the Paris 1970 interview with four of them in agreement about the record company refusing to accept the music and the image promotion failure in Europe where they had done extraordinary well during the Vietnam War.  I've provided quotes from Brian himself, Mike and Bruce.  So you don't believe Brian? OK.

This is while I was in college and grad school, and seeing them evolve from the striped shirts to doing the college and university circuit.    

You may not agree.  We can disagree without being disagreeable.  

The problem is you're arguing from the fact that Capitol did not support Brian to the conclusion that Mike Love did support Brian.  That is a non sequitur.

EoL

["But Brian would come in, and he would want to do different things, and they would really balk at that; and again, I have to keep thinking that this is the problem with what's going on right now. Sooner or later it has to tire you out, and Brian would complain about it. It would be much easier for Brian to go in and lay all those voices out himself, and do all those things; there's a lot of things on Pet Sounds that uh, incredible vocal things that are all Brian's voices, because he can sing all their parts. But he would go through a tremendous paranoia before he would get into the studio, knowing he was going to have to face an argument. He would come into the studio uptight, he would give a part to one of the fellas or to a group of the fellas, say "This is what I would like to have done," and there would be resistance. And it wouldn't be happening and there would be endless takes and then he would just junk it. And then maybe after they left to tour he would come back in and do it himself. All their parts. But it was very taxing, and it was extremely painful to watch. Because it was, uh, a great wall had been put down in front of creativity. And now, maybe, he just doesn't want to fight anymore. It used to be a big fight thing in that studio, and he just may be damn well tired of fighting and having to give the parts to the guys and hearing their excuses why they don't want to do it this way or why they want to do it that way...that could very easily be it."]

How many ways are there to "interpret" this description? It's as clear as can be about the scenes with the Beach Boys and Brian in the studio and the effect it had on Brian and the process overall. Unless someone is willing to discredit or dismiss what David Anderle said here, this doesn't need interpretation or someone to help other fans "understand" it unless the goal is to parse his words to fit another definition. And that doesn't exactly work when the words were spoken this clearly:

David Anderle, one example out of many as told to Williams: "But Brian would come in, and he would want to do different things, and they would really balk at that; and again, I have to keep thinking that this is the problem with what's going on right now. Sooner or later it has to tire you out, and Brian would complain about it. It would be much easier for Brian to go in and lay all those voices out himself, and do all those things; there's a lot of things on Pet Sounds that uh, incredible vocal things that are all Brian's voices, because he can sing all their parts. But he would go through a tremendous paranoia before he would get into the studio, knowing he was going to have to face an argument. He would come into the studio uptight, he would give a part to one of the fellas or to a group of the fellas, say "This is what I would like to have done," and there would be resistance. And it wouldn't be happening and there would be endless takes and then he would just junk it. And then maybe after they left to tour he would come back in and do it himself. All their parts. But it was very taxing, and it was extremely painful to watch. Because it was, uh, a great wall had been put down in front of creativity. And now, maybe, he just doesn't want to fight anymore. It used to be a big fight thing in that studio, and he just may be damn well tired of fighting and having to give the parts to the guys and hearing their excuses why they don't want to do it this way or why they want to do it that way...that could very easily be it."

Anderle explains this here I think:

“And then he brought them into the studio, and they were hearing things they never heard before. Not only were they hearing things they'd never heard from Brian, but also you've got to remember that none of this Beatles stuff was happening then. There was no way to relate to what Brian was putting down. That's when he started meeting resistance from the Beach Boys. "Brian, what are you ... what is this? What are you doing? This is not within our framework, you're going too far now, Brian, this is too experimental. I can't sing this part." In one specific song Brian wanted to sing the lead, but it was almost promised to Mike. And Mike couldn't cut it the way Brian wanted it to be cut, although Mike was cutting it beautifully. But it still wasn't right, and Brian wanted to do it ... they went through an incredible amount of time, almost a whole week of wasted studio time, before Brian finally did it. Brian didn't know how to deal with the boys.”

And here:

“Well, the first thing Brian will come up with is a concept, an album concept; generally he wants to do a thing. I say "a thing" because it's, you don't really know what it is, he throws out a whole bunch of words at you, one-liners, and words and half-phrases, and you really don't know what he's talking about at all. All you know is to go along with it. The Beach Boys could walk into a session and not have the slightest idea what they're recording that night. He tells them what to record, and they do it. They don't know what it means, generally, and that was always a problem, too. We're gonna do a piece of this, and a piece of that, a fragment, and they would do it, as instruments.”

I would say that’s why the Boys had these questions and concerns "Brian, what are you ... what is this? What are you doing? This is not within our framework, you're going too far now, Brian, this is too experimental. I can't sing this part.”

Somehow Anderle’s statement about “big fight thing” has to be harmonized with his other statement about “not antagonistic”. A non-antagonistic big fight thing somehow. On the other hand we know regardless of whatever “resistance” amounted to “He tells them what to record, and they do it” was done.

Vosse said:

“So all of these tracks had been done at Western and everything was ready, and the Beach Boys returned from their triumphant English tour - and the whole thing started going nuts then. First three sessions with the group were just full of confusion, because what Brian would do was give them a bit at a time: he didn't like teach them a song; he used them as instruments: he'd teach Mike Love one little part, and somebody else this, that, and the other ... Then
he'd spend about three days recording and recording and recording to get one song right; then he'd finish with it, tell them everything was fine - and two days later, he'd go back in alone, take out the voice track of say Carl which wasn't right, and he'd put his own voice in instead; and then he'd dabble with somebody
else's - and before you knew it, it was almost all Brian.  Al Jardine, though, did a lot of good singing at that time - really good singing. And Mike Love always comes through very well on what it is he does, which is pretty limited.  Then, the guys started getting up tight about the material. They were worried about how they'd do it in person. Now they're orchestrated, but even then Brian was considering a full orchestra to back them up ... and that sort of forestalled things a little: they thought it might be a good idea. Then, tension developed in the studio, because what it came down to was that Brian and Van Dyke had come up with music a little too complex for them, and which they began to resent. A lot of the arguments that took place were between Brian and Mike Love. And a lot of people would go off into comers together - the sure sign that a group is in trouble: where you have two over in this half, and two other there at the same time - huddling, and saying: hey, you know, this fucking thing ... There was a lot of that.”

Vosse describes confusion, not “resistance”, from giving the Boys just a bit at a time and tension and resentment over the music’s complexity and arguments between Brian and Mike. Vosse also says Brian and Mike disagreed and then agreed. Again still singing good and doing it take after take after take. Vosse elaborates on Anderle adding Brian tells the Boys their singing is “fine”.  

Vosse's characterization of "confusion" (reasonable under the circumstances) is far less "dramatic" than, Anderle's of  "resistance" to this concept of a voice used as an instrument, as opposed to straight vocals.  It seems closer to the truth.

And their "realities" were different.  Brian was looking at studio product and the band were likely looking at "how do we (5 guys) translate" what is going to be recorded and submitted to the record company and then, "take this out on the road" and get it arranged so it would be manageable on the road.  

For what reason does it seem closer to the truth, other than the fact that you say so?  I must have missed your reason.

EoL

What makes sense to me, and my analysis of what I've read is not subject to anyone's  approval.

Well I suspected that's all it was.  You should have said "it seems to me closer to the truth", given that's what you meant and you provided zero evidence to support the conclusion.

EoL