Maybe we don't get to tell the Boys how to feel because we haven't walked in their shoes.

We are only having a discussion, we can't dictate or make a bandmember feel a certain way if they're not going to feel that way.

I haven't walked in Landy's shoes, yet I can "tell" the ghost of Landy that he was being super sh*tty by taking advantage of Brian, and I think you'd probably agree. And you're able to call Brian out on sh*tty behavior (as I too am), like the songwriting snubbing, but somehow you cannot say the same about Mike at any point.

I will say that Brian snubbing Mike over, California Girls, for example, was not excusable, it was not right. Can you bring yourself to say the same about any action from Mike to Brian? That Mike ever did something to Brian that Cam would qualify as simply wrong, not right, f*cked up?

It's not in Mike's DNA to take responsibility for the wrongs he has committed and somehow he seems to have passed this DNA on to his biggest fans.

EoL

Thank you for posting this.  I love Mike, always have, always will.


He's dead right about some things, dead wrong about other things, that's just who he is.  I can't hate him for it, just like I can't hate Brian for being dead wrong about a lot too.  Just wish the two of them would put down the battle axes and get back together.

Could you help us understand the battle axe Brian needs to put down?  I think most here have a hard time seeing where Brian is still fighting.  And as it seems he isn't still fighting Mike, one must ask what motivation he has to get back together with someone who continues to be aggressive toward him?

EoL

Oh please.  Open your eyes.  I'm not going to break out the crayons and construction paper for you. 

Enlighten us.  He won't go into the room with Mike?  Mike wasn't the hero of Love & Mercy?  What is the battle axe?  If you mean that Brian doesn't want to write with Mike anymore then your symbol of a battle axe is completely inappropriate for the point you are trying to communicate.  Mike continually belittles Brian -and his wife- and harasses him through the legal system.  Brian just kind of takes it, says mostly nice things, didn't bother to put up a fight in court, and doesn't want to spend a lot of time with a person who, in various forms, abuses him.  That's called wisdom, not a battle axe.  Mike carries a battle axe, as this article proves once again.  So please enlighten us with the crayons and construction paper.  Explain to is the battle axe of Brian Wilson.

EoL

Thank you for posting this.  I love Mike, always have, always will.


He's dead right about some things, dead wrong about other things, that's just who he is.  I can't hate him for it, just like I can't hate Brian for being dead wrong about a lot too.  Just wish the two of them would put down the battle axes and get back together.

Could you help us understand the battle axe Brian needs to put down?  I think most here have a hard time seeing where Brian is still fighting.  And as it seems he isn't still fighting Mike, one must ask what motivation he has to get back together with someone who continues to be aggressive toward him?

EoL

So you agree that some people are more outraged (or whatever) at Mike's continuing hurt feelings than they are with the people and actions that hurt Mike.

Hi Cam, I'm glad you are putting in the "(or whatever)" because in my case 'outrage' would be way too strong, but yes, I think your statement is correct. I don't know what your family structure is, but if you have siblings or kids, I'm sure you've seen one sibling hurt another's feelings. Hopefully it's redressed more or less fairly, but sometimes the hurt feelings are still hurt. One sympathizes for a while. But sometimes someone will bring up the same incident over and over and one's sympathy wanes and eventually just becomes eye-rolling or exasperation. The time comes when bringing up old squabbles becomes tiresome, particularly if there's been acknowledgment of the wrong and an attempt at righting it. Mike Love needs to forgive and move on.

Could not have said it better myself.

EoL

Mike was ripped off, but that injustice has been redressed, or as redressed as it is possible to be without rewinding history.

Maybe that's part of the problem.  How differently would he have been regarded if was widely known at the time that he was writing the lyrics for the hits?  Redressing it 30 years later can't do much in that regard, because the wider world won't really give a toss at a later stage.  If he's concerned about his position in history, it's a hell of a thing to be robbed of.

At this stage, he can let go all his grudges and live easy, perhaps be a bit more liked by a few people, or he can be a grouchy old man, regularly pissing off about 30 fans on the internet by talking about his grudges.  But there's little difference in those two positions, really, compared to what he's lost.

Where did this idea come from that Mike wasn't known as a lyricist for the BBs and his feelings were hurt?  Everyone knew at the time that he wrote lyrics, as did Gary Usher and Roger Christian, for Brian's music in the early years.  There were plenty of listed credits.  Whatever songs he wanted more credit for, i.e., "Goodnight my baby, Sleep tight my baby..." he got in a lawsuit later.

Exactly.  Which lyrics would have improved Mike's place in history?  By the time Mike was attempting anything that would have appealed to the hipsters and artsy crowd he was playing catch up, he had already missed the boat.  Those early songs, as much as I love them, including many of the lyrics, aren't getting anyone into the poetry HOF, including Brian.

EoL

Amy and Clark, right on.  He may get a few jabs in against Brian here and there, but Brian probably doesn't really care one way or another what Mike says/does outside of the legal hassle.  However, in the end, he is only hurting himself.  He certainly isn't improving his chances of joining Brian in "the room" anytime soon.

Cam, we are all addressing your point.  It's not that no one is outraged about what offended Mike, it's that (a) the legal victory remedied his complaint well beyond the amount for which even Mike thought he deserved, yet; (b) he won't let it go; (c) he shows almost no compassion toward Brian's medical condition; (d) when he does he usually either precedes it or follows it up with other negative comments about Brian (sometimes in the same article), which communicates a lack of sincerity; (e) he mostly takes little to no responsibility for his part in the mess.

It isn't that no one is outraged, it's that there is nothing left about which to be outraged, yet Mike keeps talking as if there is, and he keeps attacking a person with a medical problem as he does so.  People don't like people that behave like Mike.  They don't like hearing someone attack another person when that person made him a millionaire, has admitted his wrong, has a diagnosed medical problem, and is mostly complimentary in return.  Nothing will change for Mike's public perception until *he* changes the image he projects to the world through these articles.

EoL

Sure.  A lot of things lawyers have said and done on behalf of the Boys are inescapably shitty. A lot of things Beach Boys have actually done to each other are inescapably shitty.  Do we complain about them having hurt feelings more than we complain about the actions that hurt their feelings?  Imo, I think we do in regards to Mike.

Shifting blame to the attorneys would work Cam, were it not for the fact that many of the comments read just like a Mike Love interview.  Shall I begin providing links and quotes to make the point?  Or are you suggesting his attorneys are writing his interview responses as well?

EoL

Standard duck, dodge, evade, red herring, straw man, etc. from Cam.

EoL

Sometimes it feels to me like some people are more outraged (or whatever) at Mike's continuing hurt feelings than they are with the people and actions that hurt Mike. 

Sometimes it's not hard to understand why people would have a hard time sympathizing with Mike.  You are talking of what, a thirty+ year grudge even after he won a lawsuit wherein he probably received more money and credit than he deserves?  And he still can't quit bad mouthing a mentally ill man who never really bad mouths him back?

Then he goes on the attack against Al Jardine in a frivolous lawsuit against Brian in regards to Smile?  Despite Al not even being named?  Here are some of the more choice bits from the lawsuit:

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/cassius-love-vs-sonny-wilson-2005-lawsuit-text.67046/

"4. In addition to his songwriting contributions to The Beach Boys, as the longtime front man for the band, Mike Love has been historically recognized as the primary voice and image of The Beach Boys; and Carl Wilson was historically recognized as the musical leader. After Carl’s death in 1998, Alan Jardine announced in the entertainment media that he no longer wished to tour with The Beach Boys; and Mike Love announced privately within BRI that he would no longer tour with Alan Jardine because of Jardine’s long and well documented history of mental and emotional problems, failure to perform, and abusiveness toward other band members. BRI then granted an exclusive license to Mike Love to perform at live concerts using The Beach Boys registered trademark. Since 1998, Mike Love has scrupulously fulfilled his license obligations, using the trademark to perform as The Beach Boys in approximately 150 live concerts per year all over the world. He has paid over eleven million dollars to BRI as royalties on this license.

5. In the same time frame following Carl Wilson’s death, Alan Jardine misappropriated the trademark, bastardized The Beach Boys name, altered the traditional Beach Boys harmonies, line-up and music, defamed Mike Love and The Beach Boys in the media, and then overtly infringed upon the trademark by using it to perform live concerts while duping ticket-buyers into believing it was the BRI-licensed Beach Boys. Jardine wreaked havoc in the marketplace causing BRI to sue for a permanent injunction which was granted and then upheld by the Ninth Circuit in Brother Records, Inc. v Jardine, 318 F.3d 900 (9th Cir. 2003). Although Jardine is still a 25% shareholder and a Director of BRI (receiving 25% of the license revenues), he is an adjudicated infringer who has breached his fiduciary duties to BRI.

6. Like Jardine, Brian Wilson has now with the “give-away” scheme, pursued a path to promote himself, destroy The Beach Boys trademark, and breach his fiduciary duties to BRI and to Mike Love. Historically, these breaches are the continuation of over thirty-five years of conduct by Brian Wilson to damage The Beach Boys and BRI. Between 1961 and 1966 Mike Love and Brian Wilson successfully collaborated with Carl and Dennis Wilson in the creation of hit after hit and album after album in the rapidly growing world of rock and roll music. Mike and Brian are recognized as prodigious song-writing pioneers in the early development of this musical genre. But beginning in 1965, drugs began to destroy Brian Wilson. By 1967, Brian lived either in his bed or in his sand-box in his Beverly Hills mansion. While Mike Love and The Beach Boys were touring without him, Brian was surrounded by drug addicts, drug dealers, parasites, and plagiarizers. In 1967, while Brian was living in an environment of drugs and physical and mental illness, Brian and The Beach Boys created the “Smile” album pursuant to their contract with Capitol Records, and paid for by Capitol. Brian also consulted some of the hangers-on that surrounded him at the time.

7. Between 1967 and 2002, Brian was essentially too ill to do anything but collect his royalties, including revenues from BRI and his 25% share of Mike Love’s license royalties. Between 1991 and 2002, Brian was under a court-ordered conservatorship, first with a court appointed lawyer until 1995, and then with his just married wife. In 2002, Brian began to resurrect his career by touring with his own band. However his “performance” has been, for the most part, limited by his past mental and emotional problems. In order to promote himself, Brian began to misappropriate BRI property. In 2003, he misappropriated “Pet Sounds,” a Beach Boys album, all while serving as a fiduciary to BRI. In September, 2004, Brian Wilson, without permission or a license from BRI, the owner of Smile, orchestrated the scheme to release a Smile CD. Up until then, Smile had been called the most recognized unreleased album in the history of rock ‘n’ roll. Smile has obtained “secondary meaning” as a Beach Boys property, and historically has been identified with The Beach Boys trademark. The defendants here exploited Mike Love and The Beach Boys’ tie-ins with Brian Wilson and Smile to promote the sale of the Smile CD, The Mail on Sunday newspaper, and the services of BigTime.TV.

Sometimes Mike makes it hard to feel bad for Mike.

EoL

Historically, I believe AGD votes for Beach Baby by First Class when this topic arises. 

Highlights (if you want to call them that)

- Mike asked to see an advance screening of Love & Mercy and was told to go buy a ticket like everyone else.

If that's true, it's unfortunate and not nice. Undeniably so. But I fail to see how he could exactly be surprised given how Brian was given similar treatment as C50 ended.

If anyone wants to claim the two incidents are unrelated, I'll eat my shorts.

Given Mike's litigious tendencies (to put it mildly), I don't think it was not nice , I think it was necessary and even wise.  However, it is unfortunate that such is necessary.

EoL

I'm pretty sure John is factually wrong, Brian is a Beach Boy, legally, and really in every relevant way, he just isn't a member of the touring band for which Mike has licensed the name for touring purposes.  He was certainly a Beach Boy in 2012, I've got a CD to prove it.  Mike may have booted him from the touring band but he can't boot him from anything else.

Perhaps SJS is confusing the singular and the plural?  Mike Love is *a* Beach Boy but as Dennis Wilson once elucidated, Brian Wilson is the Beach Boys.

EoL

Because it says "A Beach Boy Looks Back..." I would think it is Mike Love because he IS a Beach Boy. Brian Wilson isn't a Beach Boy and neither is Al Jardine. I'd be surprised if Bruce would be the one looking back...

As per usual, SJS stirring the pot for Mike.  But I'm less interested in his transparent motives than I am in the accuracy of his statement.  It has been my understanding that Mike's exclusive use of the Beach Boys name is for touring purposes only and that, legally, Brian is as much a Beach Boy as Mike in every other regard: royalties, recording, etc.  If this is the case then to say Mike is a Beach Boy and Brian is not is factually incorrect.

Can anyone who knows clarify?  Andrew?

EoL

I've no email addy for them, and was hoping either you or Andrew would kindly ring Mike and ask him for me. 

EoL

Other than Cam's suggestion that a dead Murry Wilson is the reason Altbach did not get a writing credit for this song, does anyone else have any idea as to how/why this happened?  Anyone?  Bueller?

EoL

Why is there a continuing slant that Dennis Wilson gave or fed drugs to Brian Wilson? Why aren't people talking about Brian feeding drugs to Dennis? It sounds like Brian paid for them. Why isn't Brian beaten up for buying drugs for Dennis or for sharing his drugs with Dennis?

I'm not suggesting AT ALL that Brian should have been beaten up, of course. Or that people should think of Brian as preying on Dennis. But I do think that the two angles are equally valid and that it's revealing that one is chosen over the other so consistently.

They were both doing drugs. They were both procuring drugs, sometimes jointly. Sometimes they did drugs together. The idea that one was the victim of the other seems to me to be totally based on a biased and willful interpretation.

As an aside, Dennis seems to me (opinion!) to have had an addiction while Brian's addiction I think is questionable.

Why is there "a continuing slant"? Why aren't people talking about "Brian feeding drugs to Dennis"? Why isn't "Brian beaten up"? Why is it that "one is chosen over the other so consistently"?

In my opinion, the answer, as it usually applies to this board, is that Brian is mentally ill. However, in this case, the answer is that Brian is MORE mentally ill.

An additional answer, again in my opinion, as it usually applies to this board, is that Brian has provided us with beautiful music. However, in this case, the answer is that Brian has provided us with MORE beautiful music.

If you would start bragging about some of your co-writing credits it would be almost as good as having Mike Love on the board.

EoL

Murry?

Murry's reach extended beyond the grave...

I was looking at photos of the new Phoenix single today and noticed that the writing credit on the label lists only Mike Love.  Here are the links:

https://kontrabandstor.es/media/catalog/product/cache/70/image/960x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/u/n/unnamed-1.jpg
http://images.junostatic.com/full/CS595721-01B-BIG.jpg

As I remembered someone on this website suggesting/stating that the song had a co-write.  I dug up the thread and found that the co-writer named was Ron Altbach.  Both Wikipedia and Mike's own website confirm the co-write:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alone_on_Christmas_Day
http://www.mikelove.com/ (right now the front page features the single and the accompanying article states that Ron Altbach helped write the song)

Does anyone know why Ron does not receive a co-writing credit?

EoL

To me it's also fascinating that Mike, a guy who doesn't even play an instrument and couldn't write a melody if his life depended on it, thinks that he is entitled to 50% of Brian's creations. In the immortal words of Brian? Gecko (in the movie Wall Street" GREED IS GOOD"!!!

Mike's claim is based on him writing lyrics, not music. And, as Andrew pointed out, he was willing to settle for far less than 50%. Brian was reportedly agreeable to that, but got talked out of it by his attorneys.

Which raises an interesting question as to whether Mike initially asked for only 750k because he thought that is all he deserved...and later became greedy and took advantage of Brian's condition, or did he feel he was owed what he eventually won and initially asked for so little out of the kindness of his heart?

His initial request for only 750k could be very telling either way.

EoL

Great to see someone covering this album as it contains some of my favorite post-Pet Sounds tracks by the Beach Boys.  I'll try to listen with headphones, as opposed to my cell phone, and comment more.

EoL

Rocky, I'm interested in hearing more about the funny stuff and rumors that were mentioned about the song credits trials, is there more information you could share?

This is one topic that has always fascinated me.  I've never fully bought into the court decision in regards to each and every claim Mike made.  He was clearly up against someone unable to really defend himself and, though I don't know much about Brian, I can gather some insight via analogy, and I think he could easily have been in "I don't give a damn" mode or "I don't feel like fighting mode".  Add in a ruthless attorney combined with a semi-delusional Mike Love and the result could easily be Brian being taken advantage of while he sat by and let it happen.

So I am up for funny stories and rumors in regards to the song writing credits trials, if you are willing to share.

EoL

Nice consistent sound/style throughout.  I believe my favorites are:

Maybe (Don't Do It Baby)
Yesterday

But I must admit I've not spent a lot of time with it and my attention was divided.  It seems you are using your voice in a way that better plays to your strengths.  Whether that was deliberate or just due to the material I don't know.  Regardless, another good effort Mike.

I do have a question for you.  What is your ultimate goal in writing and recording?  To make money?  Hit records?  Pick up girls?  Self-satisfaction?  I think your answer to that question should go a long way in deciding whether you want to work with a collaborator, whether to sharpen up the song writing or assist in vocals and taking some of the instrumental load, etc.  Just a thought.

EoL

[Pet Sounds]

One person I really feel for is Marilyn. She had the toughest task possible in dealing with Brian back then, and yes, as a young rock star wife with kids to raise, she might have made some errors in an impossible situation.

John, this summarizes dozens of conversations that I've had with Marilyn in one sentence -- something I couldn't (and wouldn't) have done myself.  Well done mate!

Lee

The thing about Marilyn that goes right by most people is that she was so young: 16 when they married, 18 during Pet Sounds, 19 when Smile foundered. The Dutch escapade ? 24, with two children aged three and two...

And 30 when this was going down.
Look, she had a really rough time of it but she also did some things that were really wrong.
As did everyone else in this story.

Emily - the thing about Marilyn is that for about 12 years she had to have been "worn down" by all of this. Maybe since things got very chaotic when she was about 18 as Andrew says she was, during Pet Sounds.    

And, reading "between the lines" with this, she was looking at multiple responsibilities and stressors.  First, the kids, second, the husband, third, the record company exerting pressure for record production by the band, who came on deck in a big way with Wild Honey and 20/20; I find both to be very cool albums.  

So, Marilyn made (maybe with or without counsel) an "off the grid" decision.  She may have been convinced or persuaded that an "off the grid" treatment plan was, in what was perhaps judged then as to be in everyone's best interest.  The author has stated that Marilyn threatened "inpatient" treatment.  It would have rendered Brian "unavailable" to fulfill production deadlines.  People make statements when they are exasperated. We don't know the context as readers of what was written in this thread.  

No one gets out of this life without making a ton of mistakes.  Unfortunately Marilyn's "alleged" mistakes are becoming fodder for public discussion.  It is too bad.  I don't need to read the intimate details of someone's life told with soap operatic detail and her life held up to a microscope.  

And, I don't like the "curious timing" of this "release" at a time when so much positive stuff has been happening this past year, on all fronts.   What happens in Vegas should stay in Vegas.  

Whoa, awfully conspiratorial of you pledge.  Reminds me of claims made about the similarly suspicious announcement of the release of Mike's book.  Wasn't it timed not too long after the break up of C50 and the announcement of Love & Mercy?  In fact, isn't it's release coming soon?

EoL

EoL - what does a purported release of a book of a "bit player" have to do with a release of a book of a "principal" of the band?  

Pledge: how is the suspicious timing of a book release negated because the author is a principal instead of a bit player?  Maybe one is riding coat tails for money and one is doing it to re-write history, but suspicious timing is suspicious timing.  You can't poo poo one and not the other.  Well, you can, it just betrays your bias when you do.
EoL

EoL - I have no idea what this "Pledge" term connotes.  Curious timing?  You bet.  I would call it "temporally related" (in time)  to a very successful bio film on Brian,  And a 50th of Pet Sounds, very successful Touring Band schedule.  That is not enough?  Timing?  

A bit player could have an agenda to distract from a wonderful comeback that Brian has enjoyed, and tell tales from a time when it appears that he and his brothers had diminished capacity and expose alleged details that distract from their legacy.  And events that are not so different from any one else who has been addicted to alcohol or drugs and act in a way that is not consistent with their actual personalities.  They tend to misbehave and that is part of the disease.  Health and disease issues are generally private matters.


  

Sorry about that.  My phone auto-corrects my abbreviation of your name to pledge.  I pledge to keep an eye on that in the future. 

EoL

[Brian]

I stand corrected, it is the hype/release of L&M and announcement of Brian's book I had in mind:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18555.msg484970.html#msg484970

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18555.msg485029.html#msg485029

EoL

Think you mean Mike.

Nope, Brian.  It was suggested previously on this board that the announcement/release of Mike's book was timed to coincide with the flurry of new interest in Brian and his story.  In particular the movie and Brian's book.  I'm not saying it was timed in this way, but it was previously suggested and the idea was dismissed at the time.

EoL

Reminds me of claims made about the similarly suspicious announcement of the release of Mike's book.  Wasn't it timed not too long after the break up of C50 and the announcement of Love & Mercy?  In fact, isn't it's release coming soon?

EoL

End of C50 tour - September 28th, 2012.

Love & Mercy announced - June 23rd, 2013.

Mike's book announced - 20th November 2014.

Yup, not too long after at all...

Mike's book is due for a summer 2016 publication.

I stand corrected, it is the hype/release of L&M and announcement of Brian's book I had in mind:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18555.msg484970.html#msg484970

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18555.msg485029.html#msg485029

EoL