Outtakes: Honeycomb? California Feeling (cleaned up version)? Shortenin' Bread? (mmm, couldn't you just drewl over that version?)

I meant from the actual sessions in late 1971/early 1972 - those tracks were recorded in, respectively, 1974, 1974 and 1973.

Any reissue could also include the promo interview Brian did with the girls, - Just for added interest...

Maybe any tracks, (which otherwise are present on BWPS), which would not fit onto the '67 album due to space limitations on the vinyl, would have been issued as single B-sides?

H&V b/w H&V Part 2 ?

Vega-tables b/w ? ?

[Hawthorne Boulevard]

Off the top of my head...

Hawthorne Boulevard (Instrumental)

Goodie Connie Won't You Come back Home (Brian's demo which ultimately became 'Surf City')


and in fantasy land :

a BBoy version of the David Marks composition, (as submitted for the Little Deuce Coupe album), Custom Car Show *

*(does not exist but would have been a great track...!)

I also note that the discography of Hot-Rod Music is having a re-issue - but, as someone who has both earlier editions, is the updated Surf Discog worth getting ? Is there THAT MUCH difference 

Well, previously I had the 2nd edition of the Surf Music Discography which I got directly from John in the early/mid 80s... In comparing that to this new 4th edition, there is much more record information included, although there are several albeit obscure photos/flyers which appear in both books. But on the other hand there are many photos I'd never seen before, including what appears to be an early picture of The Surfaris, (in addition to the one of them and Little Pattie), one of The Surf Bunnies,The Beach Girls and one of The Blazers are just some that spring to mind...

I never got the 3rd edition as I believe the original plan was to publish both the 'Surf' and "Hot Rod' discographies in the one book, I hung out for that although with the passage of time a combined issue never came to pass...

So, as for the difference between editions 3 and 4 of the Surf discography, obviously I can't say... 

I'm still glancing through it at the moment having not yet got down to any 'serious' study, but I have noticed many tracks which featured on the compilations "Surfin' In The Midwest", "The Surfer's Mood" , "The Surf Creature", "Strummin' Mental" etc. which did not feature in the 2nd edition are now there, (things like 'Boondocker' by The Clashmen for example ), with band line-up and full release details where known. But there are also many unheard (by me) new additions...

But Malc, I'm sure you know what this book is all about!

At the risk of repeating myself, perhas not for the armchair surf music fan, but if you're one of those people who are interested to discover the recorded output of Ray Hunt and The (pre Lively Ones) Surf Men, and to tick the tracks off as you collect/buy/exchange them, then this book is for you!

Nothing rare for the slightly better than average BBoy fan, although the book also contains discography sections for the surf period on The Honeys, Jan & Dean, Gary Usher groups etc...

It is an attempt to list all the known released 'surf' influenced records from the period, which includes both 'vocal' and 'instrumental' styles.

I think it is fair to say that the majority of the releases documented are independant small label releases from 'one shot wonders' (The Frogmen are in there for example), (although perhaps not the best example as they released more than one record!), complimented by full discographies of the heavy-weights of the genre (Dick Dale, Bel-Airs, Surfaris, Lively Ones, Chantays, Eddie & The Showmen, Challengers et al.)

It's a great reference book for any one who collects records from the whole genre, sections on singles, albums, and surf films are all sprinkled with colour pictures of record labels, period reviews and news clippings, promo (and otherwise) photos (mainly B/W)...

Not for the average BBoy fan but highly recommended for anyone with more than a psssing interest in the whole 60s surf shebang.

Not wanting to go off on a tangent but another new book is available, the 4th edition of "The Illustrated Discography Of Surf Music 1961-1965" by John Blair...

 http://www.johnblair.us/ongoing.htm

Again perhaps not one for exclusive BBoys fans, (although the detail is such to list in their discography section a promo give away 45 of 'Boogie Woodie'), but a must have for any fan of the whole surfing genre...

An excellent reference book, some great photos, including one of Little Pattie, this time with The Surfaris, (same '64 Australian tour).

Back to Johnny Rivers:

Memory is a little vague on this...

Didn't I read one article which included a discussion regarding the possibilities of a promontional video for 'Barnyard'?

I seem to remember that Brian suggested that they could have chickens in tennis shoes 'bopping around' some luxurious pad... "It could be Johnny River's pad", he suggests...

[Aside: Johnny Rivers' name also crops up on the 1966 Jan & Dean Meet Batman Lp on the track 'Flight Of The Batmobile', with Dean posing the question 'Where's Johnny Rivers?' right at the end of the track.]

What about "My Stingray" by The Four Speeds, one of Gary Usher early groups...? I've read that Brian sings on this although maybe this is yet to be 100% confirmed...

mrski,

One, I think Gary Usher was part of the shaping of the early Beach Boys sound, having written and recorded songs before Brian and the Boys released their music, and also having written songs with Brian during the first projects of the Beach Boys. Gary's productions were exploitation in nature, no arguing that. I just happen to think, when it clicked, Usher was incredible. Listen to "Midnight Run" by the Superstocks. Much as I love the Pyramids, I think Usher's version is better. As to the notion of oversaturation, I'm not exactly sure how much of Usher's exploitation work got that far out there. A lot of that stuff was sold at Woolworth's or given away as promotional items. Gary's best work... the Beach Party soundtracks, the Superstocks and the Hondells... well, I think there was real artistic integrity there. His production talents shown all the more when he worked with the Byrds and his own Sagittarius. But for me, even his exploitation records are all well-produced.

Pop Surf Culture... it traces the history of surf in film, art, publishing, music and fashion from the dawn of the 20th Century to the present, with the major focus being the more pop/bohemian elements seen in drawings of Rick Griffin. As for Beach Boys content, there will be about ten pictures not published elsewhere, and a lot of insight into the environment that birthed their music-making. There's also a chapter on Smile and an ad for the Radiant Radish. Hope that didn't derail.

I would say that, to me, The Superstocks do appear to be somewhat different from what I would consider to be the Usher norm. Some of the instrumentals are stand out pieces, however others I could pass over... 'Wheel Stands' and 'Gridiron Goodie' are two that do it for me!


I'm a Rick Griffin fan, and have been ever since I bought a Challengers album which included one of his comic-books about the band.  Ever see that picture disc he designed for the early 80s revival group The Evaisons? I'd frame it, -if it wasn't such a good record...!

So there's a couple of BBoy pieces, anything to look forward to regarding instrumental bands?

That's what I suspected having read this thread...  That or maybe there could be so described 'fan mixes'...!


I'll still give all the 'alternate versions' a listen though at least once, just in case something is obviously different.

Thanks MBE. 

["The Beach Boys hit the charts at the same time that Dick Dale's "Let's Go Trippin'," the Belairs' "Mr. Moto" and the Markets' "Surfer's Stomp" all hit the KFWB charts. The four singles rose and fell during the same four weeks in the latter part of 1961. It's a common misnomer that vocals were not a part of surf music."]

"The Beach Boys hit the charts at the same time that Dick Dale's "Let's Go Trippin'," the Belairs' "Mr. Moto" and the Markets' "Surfer's Stomp" all hit the KFWB charts. The four singles rose and fell during the same four weeks in the latter part of 1961. It's a common misnomer that vocals were not a part of surf music."

Would it be fair to say that perhaps we can use the dates of record releases and chart positions to provide evidence of 'the birth of surf', but in doing so isn't there a tendency to blur who was actually there at the actual conception? Couldn't this music have been played in a live setting by certain artists for months prior to any vinyl being pressed...?

"Surf instrumental drumming was very much influenced by jazz, and the sax players in those combos often wore sunglasses and sported gotees. Laurindo Almeida might be the real first surf guitarist, as he brought much of the exotic flair of the guitar to the beach and to surf audiences. "

"That being said, I DO think "Moon Dawg" (1959) by the Gamblers and "Underwater" (1960) by the Frogmen were proto-surf instrumentals, and joined the jazz/R&B vibe with the hard-rockin' instrumental vibe of Link Wray and Duane Eddy."

Brian, do you have any opinion on whether certain mannerisms of instrumental surf music actually distilled down from country or rockabilly...

I'm thinking along the lines of people like Joe Maphis and/or Larry Collins... 'Surf' style pickin' does crop up on their records. Without going through the record collection, one example which immediately comes to mind would be Collins' "Whistle Bait" (Why didn't The Trashmen cover this?!!)

""Let's Go Trippin'" and "Mr. Moto" were more rock instrumentals, albeit quite "wet" sounding. But they were not titled anything having to do with surf. The aquiesence of them into the surf pantheon was by virtue of their time and place."

Agreed, although I always thought that these two records sounded quite 'dry', given as (from what I've read) neither feature a reverberation unit, the device often cited as a major characteristic of the recorded surf music genre and a contributing factor to the 'wet sound'.

[Several albums produced by Gary Usher after The BBoys had hit. (Heard one, you've heard them all... Well, almost...)]

Several albums produced by Gary Usher after The BBoys had hit. (Heard one, you've heard them all... Well, almost...)

I don't understand this sentiment for the life of me. Give me Surf Route 101 or give me death...

So I guess to don't subscribe to the notion that (in part) during the surf/rod boom years Usher basically took the largely commercially successful characteristics of BBoy records and saturated the market with similar sounding products/cover versions in the hope of achieving a similar level of success?!

Looking forward to Pop Surf Culture btw, can you give us a link where we can get an idea of what to expect? Or can you give us a condensed nutshell description only here as not to derail...?

Getting back to the actual music...

I have one Paley Sessions bootleg, this has the majority of associated tracks of which Proud Mary and Soul Searchin' are additionally presented also as alternate takes (ie. the CD has 2 versions of each.) There is also a demo for Saturday Morning In The City alongside the regular Paley Sessions version but however, apart from these 3 tracks the CD only has one version of each of the other songs.

Imagine my surprise when I discovered a download containing all/most of the Paley tracks in 'multiple' alternate versions! (Desert Drive, In My Moondreams, Chain Reaction Of Love - or Chain Reaction Of Mystery as the title is actually given)- are all there...

But having briefly sampled some (not all) of the audio delights, (My Mary Ann, Slightly American Music amongst them), to my ears at least these so described alternate versions sound exactly the same...!

So my question is, do multiple alternate takes exist, doing the rounds on the collector's circuit? Or is not being a musician personally in such cases a major disadvantage given as any variation seems to be extremely minor...?

[On the positive side:]

On the positive side:

The "Malibooz Rule" Lp from the early 80s... Like the BBoys with slightly more of an edge. Tracks of particular note being:

'308' ("she's real great my 3-0-8..."), and for alot of fun (although not too BBoys-like),
'Honey Dew (We Canteloupe)', where the name of the game appears to be to include as many names of fruit and vegetables as possible throughout the lyrics of the song! Dean Torrence makes a guest appearence on 'Sweet Surfin' Music' which is a classic.

I'd add to this 'The Best Of Ronnie & The Daytonas' CD on Sundazed. Get past all the surf and 'rod stuff (as good as it is) and tracks like 'Sandy' and 'When Stars Shine Bright' are a great listen in a more mature kind of way...

On the negative side:

'California Project' by Papa Do Run Run...  An attempt to recreate the BBoys sound and production... All clinically clean cover versions, sonically stripped of any emotion... Every song a BBoys cover. Yawn. Why bother...?

Several albums produced by Gary Usher after The BBoys had hit. (Heard one, you've heard them all... Well, almost...)

Plus any one of a number of Mike Love remakes, (excepting maybe 'Salute To Nascar' which I listen to on a semi-regular basis...)

Well it's not bad, BUT it'd be alot better sans ensemble... The track was recorded live and would be better presented as such IMO. I had hoped that we'd get the undubed version as a bonus track on the Sundazed CD but no...

When Dick signed on with Capitol I just feel that his career/musical vision was possibly compromised being steered (in some small part) away from what he did best, (ie. instrumentals, and rock and roll with a touch of R&B). Sure the Capitol albums gave us some great tracks but on the other hand also some considerably average material.... (Glory Wave, Surfin et el.)

I just think that once the BBoys hit, the corporate suits making the decisions decided that surf music was a vocal phenomenon and likewise Dick had to fit into that mould despite the fact that (let's be honest) his voice certainly was not his main strength...

[Then again, I wonder about the instrumental 'Dick Dale Stomp' which despite what we would think considering the title, features no characteristic guitar playing...?]

Plus, when Usher got involved, just like he did with The Surfaris, at times the music lost some individuality and became one of a sea of countless other records all with similar arrangements and sound. (Probably because they were all, generally, played by the same set of musicians...?) Usher stamped his mark all over them BUT, (at least in terms of already pre-established groups), many times this was to the detriment of the original group 'sound', a sound which had made the group successful in the initial term...

Some of the most detrimental/'criminal'   events occurring within the ‘surf music’ genre:

The string over-dubs on ‘Surfer’s Choice’.
Dick Dale signing with Capitol.
Gary Usher producing The Surfaris.
Eddie & The Showmen never releasing an album.
The Beach Boys hitting the charts.
The photo shoot for the sleeve of Annette’s Muscle Beach Party Lp.
Vern Acree Jr & The Blazers only releasing 2 singles….

I'm sure there must be more...

[A Live One]

Perhaps a more tricky question would be, how much of "Filet Of Soul - A Live One" (the originally released version) is actually 'live', performed before an audience...?

[“Muscle Bustle” Ace Records CDCHD 533]

 I floated this one out on the Shut Down board a while ago but received limited response, (courtesy of the ever dependable Mr. Stebbins.) Would be interested in what others think…

Refering to the V. Artists CD “Muscle Bustle” Ace Records CDCHD 533 :

A) The Four Speeds : Barefoot Adventure, RPM, My Sting Ray – (1962) (All G. Usher / M. Borchetta compositions.)

According to the liner notes as written by Rob Burt;

“ [The Four Speeds] first session produced [the 3 tracks mentioned above]. The BBoys drummer, Dennis Wilson, appeared on all 3 tracks while Brian Wilson offfered vocal support on ‘My Sting Ray".

Question 1 : Does Dennis only drum on these recordings? Anyone else think it sounds abit like him on lead vocal? (Later recorded Four Speeds tracks on this CD have a different vocalist...)

Question 2 : Has Brian’s participation on ‘My Sting Ray’ been confirmed or is this something just in the mind of Mr Burt?


B) The Sunsets : Chug A Lug – (1963) (B. Wilson / G. Usher)

To quote the song lyrics :

“The Ivy Walls were covered with foam on Graduation night... Chug chug chug a lug...”

So despite the composer credit, a completely different song to that from the BBoys ‘Surfin Safari’ Lp.

Question 1 : Is this really another Wilson/Usher composition or has there been some mix up during CD compilation due to the fact that two completely different songs, (roughly connected to the ‘surf genre’), have the same title...?

[BW]

See, there's no frame of reference for Dean's copy of the "Surf City" lyric sheet. There's no way to tell WHEN he crossed out the lyrics, even if it was on a sheet with Brian's handwriting. Dean could have changed an old lyric sheet after the song was updated.
M.

Putting Dean’s ‘debateable’ contribution aside and not wanting to get into another Jan vs. Dean type debate…

How much input into ‘Surf City’ did BW actually have?

The lyrics which Dean has show, (prior to his amendments), a set of lyrics which do not correspond 100% to those of the final version of the song yet supposedly they are written out in Brian’s hand…

If Jan took the ‘Goodie Connie’ song from Brian then effectively went away and wrote a completely new set of lyrics with NO BW input (ie. the FINAL version), why then does there exist an ‘intermediate’ set of lyrics written out by Brian?

Surely, if Brian was not involved, wouldn’t any preliminary lyrics only be written out solely by Jan?

My guess is this:

Melody                             : Brian (from ‘Goodie Connie’)
Lyrics                               : Brian & Jan with input from Dean
Production/Arrangement       : Jan


But as was stated, just like there is no way of knowing in what time frame/situation Dean made his amendments, maybe equally there is no way of knowing for sure if Brian’s hand written lyrics were made during the actual creative process of writing the song… (Maybe at some later date  Jan dictated what words he had, and Brian simply noted down what was said without contributing anything…?!)

Who knows either way...?

[Band Without A Name]

I've always wondered, how much of Surf City did Brian write?

Reference to an interview with the late Mark Groseclose which was published in the book "Surfin Guitars; Instrumental Surf bands Of the 60s" by Robert J. Dalley... Mark was drummer for Dave & The Marksmen as well as stand in BBoy drummer for at least 4 gigs (when Dennis broke his ankle in a car accident) which coincided with The BBoys providing backing for J&D who were appearing on the same show.

Legend has it that after one of these shows Brian gave J&D a preview of the then unreleased Surfin USA which (again, as legend has it) Jan tried talk Brian into giving to J&D. As this was already recorded and planned to be the next BBoys 45, (Mark Groseclose mentions learning the song from a studio acetate), instead Brian passed on a couple of others...:

"It was about this time that Brian wrote a song called "Goodie Connie Won't You Come Back Home". he was going to produce these two brothers Eddy and Albert Haddad and a friend of theirs by the name of Dennis. Anyway, Brian decided to chuck the song and gave it to J&D. Jan did alittle rewriting and it became a big hit for them Perhaps you've heard it, Surf City?"

Note: Eddy Haddad, along with David Marks were members of the post Marksmen group Band Without A Name, (which was run by Casey Kasem who was Eddy's uncle apparently), so musically speaking he was certainly 'around' if not exactly 'in the fold' as it were...

One opinion is that Brian gave to Jan the melody and the 'Two girls for every boy' line (which coincidently fits musically to the 'Goodie Connie won't you come back home' line also.)

Indeed given what's stated in the above interview it seems that Brian had a complete set of different (non-surfing) lyrics to the song originally.

[original Brian Wilson hand written lyrics]

Memory recalls that original hand written lyrics for 'Good Vibrations' (and maybe 'God Only Knows') were due to be auctioned off along with other BBoy memorabilia in London last year, (or maybe the year before...)

However the auction was halted by Brother, claiming that the memorabilia had been stolen and was not the legal property of the collector commiting them/it for auction...

I believe however that once the proceedings got to court the claims put forward by Brother were dismissed, effectively confirming that said collector had acquired the material by legitimate means, was now the legal owner and was free to do as he pleased with his own property...

Memory is alittle vague on this but perhaps someone else will remember... 

There are tons of handwritten lyrics in Jan Berry's archive . . . including "Surf City."

But doesn't Dean have the original Brian Wilson hand written lyrics to 'Surf City' as shown on his J&D websight? Didn't he suggest afew years ago that, due to the fact that his [Dean's] hand writing is evident on there too, (amending some of the original lyrics which Brian had scribbled down), that this was proof that he contributed lyrics to the song and was never given a co/writing credit?

[Muscle Beach Party (Usher/Wilson/Christian)]

Agreed on the Annette "Muscle Beach Party" album. It's a great one. Not the film soundtrack versions, but excellent re-records of BW/RC/GU tunes nonetheless. Plus, as you said, a bunch of other Christian/Usher tunes featuring the Honeys on backups. Good call.

The Honeys are on Annette's Muscle beach Party, hey? I never knew that...cool, will keep my eyes peeled.

Yes they are...!

To quote liner notes from The Honeys Capitol Collectors Series CD:

'Gary Usher would soon call upon The Honeys' singing skills again, this time to provide background vocals on Annette's 'Muscle beach party' album. Ginger recalls, "What's interesting is that Gary would say to me, 'Would you put down a work vocal, 'cause Annette can't sing on her own? She needs someone to sing with.'... So I'd put a work vocal on and she'd sing the part, and then he'd just turn off my part and it would leave her."'

Muscle Beach Party           (Usher/Wilson/Christian)
A Girl Needs A Boy            (Hemric/Styner)
Surfer's Holiday                (Usher/Wilson/Christian)
I Dream About Frankie     (Styner/Hemric)
Muscle Bustle                   (Usher/Wilson/Christian)
Merlin Jones                     (Sherman/Sherman)

Custom City                     (Usher/Christian)
Draggin' USA                   (Usher/Christian)
Rebel Rider                     (Usher/Christian)
Waikiki                            (Usher/Christian)
Shut Down Again            (Usher/Christian)
The Scrambled Egghead (Sherman/Sherman)

Track it down if you can,... it really is alot of fun!!

[The Honeys]

Just for information:

The Donna Loren version of 'Muscle Bustle', a song containing the great lyric of

'Flexing up your biceps that's how it goes,
Then you turn your head and strike up a pose,
Do the 'mashed potatoes' and stick out your chest,
The guys are looking good - but the girls are looking best...'

Is included on a V.A. 'surf' compilation CD of the same title released some years ago by ACE Records in the UK.

The Donna Loren version of the song is more 'dramatic' than that of Annette, (I prefer the latter version personally).... but Annette's 'Muscle Beach Party' album is worth searching out because, (apart from the 'bonus tracks' of 'Merlin Jones' and a spoken piece titled 'The Scrambled Egghead'), the majority of tracks are either BW/GU/RC or GU/RC compositions, PLUS you get The Honeys adding vocals and harmonies...!

Isn't there a BW produced Frankie Avalon track featured on one volume of the (bootleg) Rarities series on Dumb Angel? (The title "Don't Stop Now' rings abell but not entirely sure...)

Doesn't Huntington Beach (aka 'Surf City') have an International Surfing Museum?

The Dean and Brian "in the studio" picture I first saw in the J&D Anthology double album booklet. Don't know for certain but I've always assumed, given the young looks and Dean's long hair, that it was in someway connected to the recording of the Dean Torrence/Laughing Gravy version of 'Vegetables'...?

It is strange Dean and Brian photos are not seen that often, especially as Dean (perhaps more so that Jan?) it appears was something of a good friend of Brian throughout the early/mid sixties. Dean is featured in the infamous Guy Webster photo taken at LA (was it?) airport. The one which is usually shown along with a caption running something like... "Brian telephoned ahead and asked Marilyn to get together all of his close friends and come to meet him at the airport. In little short of a couple of months, one by one these people would fade from Brian's life..."