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673410 Posts in 27146 Topics by 3994 Members - Latest Member: jwrag2000 January 25, 2022, 11:46:07 PM
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1  Smiley Smile Stuff / Smile Sessions Box Set (2011) / Re: TSS - All things \ on: January 16, 2015, 09:17:18 AM
I just wonder if the vocals were meant to go on top of the sax line or somewhere else. It's a damn shame we don't have any official vocals for IIGS, Look, etc.

FWIW the lost I'm In Great Shape vocal session was recorded 10 days *before* the short 'eggs & grits' backing track takes. Whatever was recorded at that vocal session most likely wasn't intended to go on top of the 'eggs & grits' instrumental.

Were OMP and IWBA already in the can by this point? My memory's fuzzy on that. Could explain a LOT if this vocal session survived. I wonder if the Great Shape medley as it exists on BWPS is vintage then? I wonder if Do A Lot started as a H&V fragment or was repurposed as one from Great Shape, similar to Bicycle Rider.

I always wondered whether it was supposed to be acapella in the first place - block chords in harmonies....

Just going by the lyric, I had thought the whole "Sleep a lot, eat a lot..." bit was "I'm In Great Shape" before I knew better. I now wonder if Brian ever considered using the "sleep a lot" bit to flesh out a complete "I'm In Great Shape" track.

To tie this into my earlier comment, I think that Do A Lot chorus really makes sense as Great Shape too. Those lyrics fit perfectly with the track title and demo vocals. We know that chorus didnt belong in Veggies until that song became a single. Then it was given a chorus similar to how Heroes was given one. The question is whether Do A Lot began as part of Heroes or GS, but even that isnt totally important because Great Shape itself was a Heroes fragment spun off into its own song. It's reasonable other H&V fragments were spun off into it too.

When that Heroes demo first showed up on Endless Harmony there was a lot of discussion about how that fit into the timeline.

So there is that May 66 recording of heroes, then from summer 66 through the first part of October sessions and recordings  for:
Good Vibs, Wind Chimes, Wonderful, Speeches, Holidays, Look/I Ran, Prayer, Cabin Essence/Home on the Range, Child, and Worms.

Then the I’m in Great Shape vocal session.

Then the first Heroes session (including the tracking for Barnyard)

Then the Beach Boys leave for Europe.

Then, a week later, the next Heroes session, this one including the tracking we have heard for Great Shape.

A week later Brian plays the demo version for Humble Harv.

Through November he records Surf’s Up and My Only Sunshine/Old Master Painter.

The Beach Boys return.

Then sessions held for The Elements(part one) and Friday Night (I’m in great shape) along with vocals for OMP, Cabin and Child last week of November -first week December.

Then, the tracklist gets to Capitol around Dec 10th? Includes Great Shape as its own track.

Then more vocal sessions: Heroes, Surf’s Up, etc. to the end of December.

January 3rd ‘67 Heroes vocal session includes first known recording of “Do A Lot” (in E major, if I remember correctly, same key as Vega-Tables)

January, February ’67 mostly Heroes sessions (with no sign of Great Shape)

April ’67 Vegetable sessions and then the album is scrapped.
_________________________________________

So what does it mean?

Well that Great Shape vocal session happened so early in the Smile timeframe that it not only predates stuff like OMP, Friday Night, and Do A Lot; it also predates any Heroes session (except the May 66 attempt.) So if taken as a Heroes section, the Great Shape vocal session is the first thing recorded for Heroes and Villains but, then not called Heroes and Villains?

The assumption has been made that Great Shape started as its own track; late October/ early November, Brian toys with the idea of using part/all of it as a bridge for Heroes and Villains, then end of November it’s back to being its own track and is listed on the tracklist to Capitol. By the end of November things had been settled for the album according to Vosse, Van Dyke, and maybe Brian, and none of the later stuff for Heroes includes Great Shape, but around the time of the Heroes demo recording things were still in flux (“We’re still working”.)

The idea that “Do A Lot” was part or even all of Great Shape I remember being around before the demo recording turned up in 1998. It was the idea that Great Shape must be a fitness themed track but now we know it has more to do with farming and agriculture like the new found Child vocals. It was kind of a guess, something to take the place of that track because nothing else existed to fill its slot even if it doesn’t make sense since the first known recording of Do A lot doesn’t happen until 67, two and half months after that Great Shape vocal session.

So what was that October I’m in Great Shape vocal session? Either something recorded to one of the previous to Oct 17th recorded titles, acapella vocals, Brian piano track with vocals, or something recorded to some track from an unknown tracking session. Still really a mystery.
2  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Do you think the early material ('62-'65) is better than Smile? on: December 23, 2014, 01:18:23 PM

Quote
Brian at the time said the lyrics were "too arty" and that is why he junked some of the songs written with VDP from Smiley.

Can you please direct me to the source of this claim? The only person who has consistently referenced this quotation on this site is you and you have done it many, many times. Where is it from and what is the context? This is especially crucial in light of the fact that, in my opinion, you have in the past mischaracterized a Derek Taylor quote to conclude that Brian felt Smile to be old-fashioned.

Well there's this,

Rolling Stone
October 28, 1971

Tom Nolan: "Why didn't that Smile album ever come out?"

Brian Wilson: "Oh, well, that was because . . . the lyrics, Van Dyke Parks had written lyrics that were, it was all Van Dyke Parks and none of the Beach Boys. The lyrics were so poetic and symbolic they were abstract, we couldn't . . “



3  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Do you prefer SMiLE as a 3 movements piece or as 12-14 tracks? on: July 04, 2014, 01:09:07 PM
He already knows it will have 12 songs including GV and he is also putting the writing of the 12 songs in the past.

I never thought about the fact that Brian states that “I’ve written them all” past tense, but you’re right. That also matches what Van Dyke said about never having heard “fire” before because by that time (November 28) he was no longer attending sessions because his part of the project (the lyrics) were done and we know that by early December he was already taking other projects. It seems like at the time of this article Brian was just waiting for the guys to come back from tour to do the vocals, and every session in December, except that one lost Heroes string date on Dec 19, is a vocal session. At the point of this interview, Smile is still set for a pre Christmas release and would not be officially pushed to 1967 until the memo on December 18.

And; something to think about with the date being push to January, there is that Capitol memo from December 8, 1966, the Purchase Order for 100,000 booklets, “to be finished by 1/3/67” and the booklet Proof was sent to two printers on December 19 for 400,000 booklets to be received 1/3/67 and 1/6/67. So for the question as to why Smile was pushed back to January 1967, because that’s when the booklets would arrive. Even if the music was done he had to wait on the covers and booklets. That also matches up with the planned album release date of the week of January 15th, gives Capitol a week ( the 6th to the 15th) to assemble and ship the record, booklet and cover.


This period around Mid-November is the last time we can put VDP and Brian together until late February I believe. Brian implies the songs are written. Earlier in November he told Humble Harv "they" were still working.

Would this Mid-November period also then be the time Siegel refers to as when VDP left the first time, tired of Brian's dominance? That suggests the two collaborators were having problems between them even before this mid-November period while they are writing the songs. This is before the Boys come back from England.

Vosse implies Brian and Van Dyke were writing well together then they were not but he has also suggested they were still collaborating right through H&V.

Anderle also claims they worked well at first and then very much not and their split around February was the main problem for the album.

This might all be baloney but I think there is a lot left to explore in the relationship between the collaborators back then.

No the last time we can put Brian and Van Dyke together is not mid-November, it’s at the Crow cries session, that was after the Beach Boys came back from tour after November 24th, with the first vocal session in December (I think for My Only Sunshine, maybe on the 2nd).

Siegel is writing from the point of view of early 1967. The paragraph preceding the one mentioning Van Dyke leaving starts with, “As 1967 opened it seems as though Brian and the Beach Boys were assured of a new world of success; yet something was going wrong.” Then the next paragraph is, “Van Dyke Parks had left and come back and would leave again, tired of being constantly dominated by Brian.”

Van Dyke is on the session contract for January 5, 1967 and there are pictures of him in the studio with Brian dated January 6, 1967. Van’s record contract was signed, if I’m remembering right, on January 6. He is heard on sessions in mid and late January, Mid February (Prelude to Fade one on them) and is playing on  sessions at the very end of February to the first or second of March, then nothing after that. 

So Parks is gone the first time in early December (kicked of the project over the lyrics) , called back by Brian by January 5th and is “around” after that through the start of March then making himself unavailable due to working on his own album.

My understanding is that Van Dyke is still working on Smile through all of November, the main part of his work of writing lyrics is done so he is no longer around all the time but still able to be called in for help as needed by Brian. That’s what happens when Brian calls him down to the Beach Boys vocal session to explain his lyrics. The most likely date for that session is December 6.

I agree that the relationship between Brian and Van Dyke really could be explored a lot more. Vosse talks about how Brian would push Van around just because he could. It seems like in ’66 Van was at the mercy of Brian Wilson, looking for his big break, but once he had his own record contract in ’67 Van Dyke eventually decided he didn’t have to put up with Brian anymore (being dominated) and stopped working on Smile and only on his own album.

Of course we also know that in March, according to Vosse and news reports, Brian had created a Heroes mix, possibly 5 minutes long so it seems like maybe Van stopped showing up in March at first because Brian was done with him. But when Brian went back to work on the rest of the Smile songs (late March early April) Van was deep into doing Song Cycle and wouldn’t come back to work with Brian, so Brian had no choice but to dump it all and start over. Keep the stuff he thought worked but write a bunch of new songs to fill out a new album. That Mike Love interview from July ’67 mentions that “We knew the songs months ago” but that Brian was “going through the tapes again.” So we got Smiley Smile.
4  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Do you prefer SMiLE as a 3 movements piece or as 12-14 tracks? on: July 03, 2014, 08:34:30 AM
He already knows it will have 12 songs including GV and he is also putting the writing of the 12 songs in the past.

I never thought about the fact that Brian states that “I’ve written them all” past tense, but you’re right. That also matches what Van Dyke said about never having heard “fire” before because by that time (November 28) he was no longer attending sessions because his part of the project (the lyrics) were done and we know that by early December he was already taking other projects. It seems like at the time of this article Brian was just waiting for the guys to come back from tour to do the vocals, and every session in December, except that one lost Heroes string date on Dec 19, is a vocal session. At the point of this interview, Smile is still set for a pre Christmas release and would not be officially pushed to 1967 until the memo on December 18.

And; something to think about with the date being push to January, there is that Capitol memo from December 8, 1966, the Purchase Order for 100,000 booklets, “to be finished by 1/3/67” and the booklet Proof was sent to two printers on December 19 for 400,000 booklets to be received 1/3/67 and 1/6/67. So for the question as to why Smile was pushed back to January 1967, because that’s when the booklets would arrive. Even if the music was done he had to wait on the covers and booklets. That also matches up with the planned album release date of the week of January 15th, gives Capitol a week ( the 6th to the 15th) to assemble and ship the record, booklet and cover.
5  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Do you prefer SMiLE as a 3 movements piece or as 12-14 tracks? on: July 03, 2014, 06:26:47 AM
If you really want to know what Brian’s plan was for SMiLE in 1966, read the article “Meanwhile…what’s BRIAN doing back at base?” it includes an interview with Brian from November 1966  “While the Beach Boys were in England”. In my copy of LLVS it’s on the bottom of page 30.

Mind posting some highlights for those of us without a copy? I'm interested. Very interested. It's a bold claim to say one article essentially holds all the answers. Not that I'm doubting you per say...just that you've got me interested. Have I mentioned that already?

I couldn’t find a link online, but here’s the whole article from the book (which you should really look into getting.)

Meanwhile … what’s BRIAN doing back at base?
HOLLYWOOD Tracy Thomas
 
  While the Beach Boys are rocking Europe, BB-mastermind Brian Wilson, has not been resting on his and their laurels!

  This week Brian’s working on the next Beach Boys’ single, another adventure in pop music, called “Heroes And Villains,” which will be, as the BB boss describes it, “a three-minute musical comedy. I’m using some new production techniques that I think will surprise everyone. I can’t actually describe the effect- you have to hear it.”

Brian’s also working simultaneously on the next BB album, now entitled “Smile.”

  “This LP will include ‘Good Vibrations’ and ‘Heroes And Villains’ and ten other tracks,” says Brian. “I’ve written them all in collaboration with Van Dyke Parks, who’s been a studio organist in Las Angeles for ages-he also records on his own.

  “The album will include lots of humour- some musical and some spoken. It won’t be like a comedy LP- there won’t be any spoken tracks as such- but someone might say something in between verses.”

  Brian’s been in touch with one or the other Boys nearly every day, if not directly, then through one of the wives. “Carl and Dennis usually call Annie and Carol each day, and Mike and Al will call, say, every other day. They just can’t believe how nice everyone is and how much attention they’re getting.

  “To tell you the truth, we were all worried about their reception. Especially since the records that have been such big hits in Europe have been the ones that are the most difficult to reproduce on stage.

  “But I understand that the audiences are taking this into account and find the boys voices make up for the lack of violins and French Horns. They are about the best harmonisers around, if I do say so!”

  Before the Boys left, they made their first film for TV that they’ve had complete control over. “We’re excited about it because it’s a new medium for us.”

  Brian adds that “1967 should bring a series of surprises for everyone from the Beach Boys.”
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The book doesn’t give the source or the date but I found them online: New Musical Express, 18 November 1966. Actually, the week ending with November 18, to be exact. Notice how that matches up with the timeline: the Vegetable arguments with Hal were that same week, the Psychedelic Sounds stuff was that week or the week before, “George Fell” was November 7. On the other side: the Beach Boys last show of the tour before coming back to LA was November 24, the Fire session was November 28, the “Crow Cries” lyric argument with Van Dyke was December 6, and the track list was received by Capitol December 10. So this was, by ALL accounts, Smile at its most expansive, experimental and un-compromised.
6  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Do you prefer SMiLE as a 3 movements piece or as 12-14 tracks? on: July 02, 2014, 01:34:26 PM
The track list is crucial in understanding what Brian's concept of the album was in December 66, as it was planned for release in January.  He had a month to finish it - what tracks could he finish in a month, and what tracks did he want on the album?  The list tells us.  Of course he was wildly optimistic about being able to finish it all, least of all in a month.  The Pet Sounds track list submitted did not follow the album sequence - but then that list wasn't used to make a back cover slick, which gives it more permanance but the fact that the back cover was never printed while the front cover was is probably significant.

I think it almost a certainty that the covers were proofed and mocked up and approved then fabricated by two contractors to completion with front and back liner, including a track list, and shipped to Capitol.

First we have memos and corrected proofs of the front and back liner in December.

Second, in late March mock ups of the covers with front and back liners with track list were seen and reported on in the press with the song titles mentioned all from the corrected back liner proof (the 12 track list).

Third, in July a magazine reported Mike saying about the SMiLE album "We knew the title and songs months ago already" and "Capitol finished the sleeve in April already. I don’t know how many sleeves they can throw out now, just because the lineup of songs and some songs have changed completely." So the covers were finished with a tracklist that the titles had been known for months and they were in Capitol's custody.

Fourth, in August 1972 Capitol had memos showing they did in fact have 100s of thousands of SMiLE covers in two warehouses and they wanted to throw them out. Covers, not just front cover liners.

Besides, the fabricators printed the back cover liners when the covers were fabricated so the fact that they were covers means the back cover liner had been printed on bond paper by the fabricator at the fabricators and assembled into a cover along with the fabricators cardboard and the lithographer's front cover liner. The two cover contractors were BertCo of LA and Queens Litho of NY. Back then BertCo did its own litho front liner and bond paper back liner printing and assembly to cardboard in-house. Queens Litho did the front liner litho printing in house then shipped the litho prints to a sub-contracting fabricator (not Capitol) who printed the bond paper back liner and assembled the litho and bond to cardboard and shipped the finished covers to Capitol's Scranton plant.

This is a great post. Of course Capitol ordered a complete cover, what kind of business would order just the front covers, have them shipped to them, warehouse them all, then ship them all the way back to the printer to be completed. What’s the point? Even if you question the band’s approval process of the tracklist, the back covers had gone through the steps needed for Capitol’s approval and more importantly they were expecting to start filling them with records and booklets within days of receiving them for a mid January release date, not much time to send them all out a second time for more work.

Also don’t forget the Vosse Fusion article where he states that “While the Beach Boys were in England, … it (the album) was a totally conceived entity…” . I seem to remember Anderle making a similar statement somewhere and Van Dyke stating that the reason that he was not at the Fire session in early December was that his part of the work was done and, while still available to Brian, he was no longer attending sessions.  So by the early part of December ’66 Brian Wilson knew what he wanted for the SMiLE album and this is right before the tracklist shows up. Easy job for him to come up with the list. He also stuck to working on songs from that list and a few articles from ’67 mention some the song titles from that cover so not only did Mike Love know the “songs months ago” but anyone keeping up with the music press would have too.

If you really want to know what Brian’s plan was for SMiLE in 1966, read the article “Meanwhile…what’s BRIAN doing back at base?” it includes an interview with Brian from November 1966  “While the Beach Boys were in England”. In my copy of LLVS it’s on the bottom of page 30.
7  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: VDP: \ on: April 07, 2014, 02:04:47 PM
I'm confused too. Or forgetful.  Can you put up the quote where VDP , or anyone actually around at the time, says it was a CE session he was called to or where he gives a time cue for the event.

Are you confused about Anderle's witness about VDP and Brian's songwriting relationship and the date of around February as the date VDP ended that relationship? Is Vosse's statement that VDP was very much involved during the 2 part H&V? Those dates are January through early March with VDP in the studio at those specific sessions with Brian twice at least in February. Those seem pretty unambiguous to me and from not only people involved and on the scene but also friends of VDP's and working with Brian.

You know that Van Dyke left twice, right? The first time because of the lyric thing with Mike and the second time because of his solo album.
8  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Has Mike Love ever taken a tiny bit of responsibility for SMiLE's demise? on: March 31, 2014, 04:47:49 PM
Didn’t VDP say something more like he stayed away from or after the Fire sessions? And as you say it can seem kind of vague as to what VDP and others mean by leaving the project or quitting but I think VDP himself has cleared it up.

I understand it is logical to presume it involved the earlier vocal sessions for CE but it is just a presumption until better evidence. I think VDP himself has given pretty good evidence for a very late date.

VDP: “I was stunned. Usually I did not go to sessions…but Brian called and said would I come and help Mike with the lyrics…there was some question about them.”

To me “usually did not go sessions” would be evidence for a later date as he attended only one session as far as we know in 1967. It wouldn't fit nearly as well or at all with an earlier date.

We know from Mike, and VDP, he asked what the lyric meant. We only know he wanted to know the meaning but it doesn’t tell us if he wanted to know before or during or after he sang the lyric for recording.

VDP: “I had written the words, see, and I was seeking the threshold for ‘over and over the crow cries uncover the cornfield’…geez? So I said ‘Mike, I don’t know’. Soon I was fired, that is I resigned, that is I dissolved my relationship…”

Now we are getting to something dateable. “Soon” after the incident “fired/resigned/dissolved”. Dissolved relationship in the context of SMiLE would seem to rule out further relationship. Resigned would normally mean the end of the relationship. Fired would signal the end of the relationship. If you are coming back for a session or to explain a lyric would that be a relationship in the context of SMiLE that was fired/resigned/dissolved”?

VDP: “Brian was the only person I knew, and I worked with the Beach Boys in 1966 and by 1967, I was fired. Because it was already decided, quickly, by Mike Love, as well, I mean down to the least known members, that I had written some words which were indecipherable and unnecessary. In short, they had had a better lyricist on Pet Sounds than they had on what is now called Smiley Smile. Smile, the album that was to have come out, which was proof of pudding, which took place during a transference of a tremendous amount of litigation…”

His working relationship extended into 1967. So if his relationship ended because of the lyrics and he was “fired” shortly after the incident it was some time in 1967. To VDP he was “fired” on the “proof of the pudding” (lyrics) during a tremendous amount of litigation. Is there any other tremendous amount of litigation besides the Capitol suit which was filed February 23, 1967?

Also we have  Anderle’s contemporaneous description to Paul Williams of when Van Dyke left, “Their parting was kind of tragic, in the fact that there were two people who absolutely did not want to separate but they both knew that they had to separate, that they could not work together. 'Cause they were too strong, you know, in their own areas.” Right around February, yeah. Van was getting — his lyric was too sophisticated, and in some areas Brian's music was not sophisticated enough, and so they started clashing on that.”


Wow, 4 more pages in but since you brought this up,

There was a long discussion, probably the same one Bicyclerider is remembering,  about this on this board or one of its predecessors that figured out the timeline for Van’s leaving but after searching I can’t find it so I’ll try to get the basics points down.

The second, final time Van Dyke left it was because of his record contract with Warners and not because he was fired by the Beach Boys.
From the Vosse Fussion article, 
“And so Lenny called Van to help out with Harpers Bizarre, and one day Warner’s really told him how much they liked him, and offered him a very good deal: I think he got a very excellent contract from them. So he signed. And the day he signed he put his head back into his own music again. And was less and less available to Brian. And Brian was less and less sure of what he was doing with the album.”

So when he finally, permanently left, it because of the record contract. That was in March 1967 because Van is on the March Heroes intro session and nothing after that.

So that means the first time that he leaves must be the result of the lyric fight. We know he was around October and November of ’66 and is on contract and tape through all of January and February of ’67 but is nowhere to be seen in all of December. From all accounts the lyric issues with the Beach Boys started when they got back from tour in November ’66. Their last show was on November 24th (Baltimore) and their first vocal session after they got back was on the 30th (My Only Sunshine). Brian held two tracking sessions on the 28th and 29th for Fire and I Wanna Be Around, but there’s no sign of lyric trouble or other Beach Boys at those sessions.

It’s been speculated that the Crow Cries incident was at the December 6th vocal session for Child and Cabin Essence because they worked on that song and it went late, until 1:00 AM, and the accounts (including Van’s) place the session as taking place late at night. If this date, or close to this date, is when Van was “fired” then he was gone for about a month, when he shows up on the January 5th session contract and photos and is around until that March session. Also notice that he’s not mentioned being around for “Inside Pop” on December 15th (you’d think he would be) and Brian is certainly having his lyrical doubts by that night.

So I think that was where the basis for the conclusion is drawn from: Fired December 6th, Returns January 5th, Leaves for good at the start of March.
9  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: ID'ing The Brian Wilson 1965 \ on: May 30, 2013, 06:08:40 AM
And I'll boil it down to the essential points if possible, compared to my last one:

Given the timeline for these releases posted above, would it make any sense for Brian to demand a release of a new single within two weeks of his previous single coming out? Unless something is lost in the wording somewhere, wasn't standard practice at that time to give a single from a hot artist at least a month to catch on through airplay and promotions before releasing another one right on top of it, effectively short-circuiting the first one?

Moby Grape was the extreme example of how flooding the market with simultaneous singles was a bad idea, I just cannot believe the Capitol exec's version of Brian demanding a new single release as his current single was just hitting the charts, given the time between TLGIOK and Barbara Ann was a matter of weeks.

Or if he did demand a Barbara Ann release, perhaps *releasing that song* was his idea at some point but not putting it out quite that soon as to torpedo his other release. That would be shooting yourself in the foot, in other words.

Honestly, I just think the story in the book is about another Beach Boys record or incident, I don't buy it 100%.

Ultimately whoever did decide to release Barbara Ann as a single made the right call economically, the success speaks for itself. I just think the market demand from those DJ's playing the album cut led to it and Capitol followed the trending demand for the song by rush-releasing a single edit. Not Brian as much as that book suggests.

Don't forget about the October Jack Benny Performance. The band performed Barbara Ann with Brian on bass.
10  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: How do YOU think Smile would have went? on: December 02, 2011, 10:50:28 AM

Okay, for one, Barbara Ann was released WITHOUT Brian's consent after the Party album was released - The Little Girl I Once Knew was the intended single (and it didn't make the Top Ten, which led to Barbara Ann's release in the first place). For two, you're ignoring Sloop John B, which was placed at the end of Side One, released before the album, and was a Top Ten hit.

No, it seems that both the Barbara Ann single and Sloop John B on Pet Sounds were Brian Wilson's ideas, even over the discouragement of others.

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?PHPSESSID=f03a4bae0d7f8dafb7480a289915c56a&topic=4725.0

Just another myth that has been passed around for years.
11  Smiley Smile Stuff / Smile Sessions Box Set (2011) / Re: TSS - All things \ on: November 20, 2011, 03:33:37 PM
Can anyone tell me where in the Pet Sounds sessions (the bootleged Sea of Tunes version) that the "The Old Master Painter" is heard being sung ??

I know it exists, but I have never actually heard this myself.



No longer have this but I remember it being during the IKTAA backing sessions, right at the start. Try SOT Vol. 13, disc 4, track 9, right at the start?
12  Smiley Smile Stuff / Smile Sessions Box Set (2011) / Re: TSS - All things DYLW on: November 17, 2011, 03:17:04 PM
I think the new melody is actually something we've heard before.
Vigotone 110/111: Disc 1 Track 25 0:26.

That vocal appears to be missing along with some others towards the end. Wonder what happened.

Thoughts?

Does anyone have a link to this album (or just that track) ?

THIS IS NOT THE BEACH BOYS

This is a cover version by an LA group called Ant Bee, made up of several ex-members of the Mothers of Invention. Their version was played on a radio show in the 1990’s, recorded off of this radio show and included by mistake on several bootlegs, specifically the Vigotone 2 disc set.

THIS IS NOT THE BEACH BOYS

Here is that version, combined with a newer recording of barnyard, also by Ant Bee.

http://www.ant-bee.com/barnyard.htm
13  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: A Ten-episodes official web series on the SMiLE Sessions is now on YouTube on: November 16, 2011, 02:09:25 PM
My guess is the upright piano was mic'd up "in case" Brian wanted it used during the tracking...or he had the pianist start out on that piano, but asked him to switch to the grand after awhile...there's one "Good Vibes" session, can't remember which, where Brian had one of the players change pianos in between takes (might even have been just for a different section of the song).  Rather than send a tech out to spend a few minutes mic'ing up another piano (while potentially killing the momentum), it woulda made sense to have all instruments on the studio floor mic'd and ready in case they were needed.  

Assuming they had enough inputs to do it that way, I guess.  I'm always a little surprised at how messy the studios were.  I think they must have just sort of thrown stuff out there and re-patched as necessary throughout the session.

What's also interesting is how low the piano is mixed on a lot of Beach Boys tracks--even on it's own discrete track.  Often it sounds like it's not actually mic-ed at all, DYLW, Sloop, and there are others, where it sounds leaked rather than mic-ed.

Did you see where the mics were placed outside that upright, if indeed they were "live" on that session? Pretty far away. In '66 one of the only engineers close-mic'ing much of anything was a young Geoff Emerick, and he caught hell for doing that, "breaking the rules", from EMI and from the musicians themselves. But after Revolver everyone wanted that present sound.

Look at the 6/16 film and the stills I posted, those mics are pretty far off the source.

I really can't tell if the piano in the film is mic-ed at all.  I can't pick out any mics on it, only stands nearby.  I don't disagree that engineers weren't quite as into close mic-ing as they would be, but there are some shots of pianos mic-ed pretty close out there.  I can think of a Gold Star shot or two with a Sennheiser 421 about a foot from the hammers.  I can't find one right now.

Then there's something like this:

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/73999437/Michael-Ochs-Archives

Obviously, I'm talking about Grand Pianos here, and of course no two sessions will be engineered the same.  But I think in the US, engineers were pretty close mic-ing.  Certainly guitar amps were, in not right on the speaker, not far away:

Ok, so apparently you're not allowed to write a certain word in this url so I'll have to be tricky for you to see the photo copy this:

http://img.metblogs.com/la/files/2008/08/wre

Then this:  ckingcrew.jpg

Put them together in your address line and you should get something.
This is certainly not to say that Brian wasn't setting up distant mics for pianos, but at what point does distant become so distant that it's not even really a piano mic anymore?  There's semi-distant mic-ing, and then there's just being off-mic, which is what it sounds like on DYLW or Sloop, as I mentioned, and I'm sure someone can come up with other examples.  I can't think of other instruments that are treated the same way on Brian's records.  To me, it sounds like a Spector thing, have more instruments going than you even have mics for...



On piano mic-ing, if I'm remembering right, on one of the sessions for the Cantina section Brian is recording the piano with the mic pretty far away from the piano and someone makes the comment "that's no way to record a piano" or something like that. Some one in the booth says that they are not getting a very strong signal and then you can what sounds like a mic stand being dragged across the floor, then the piano becomes more present. That was at Columbia, right?
14  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: A Ten-episodes official web series on the SMiLE Sessions is now on YouTube on: November 14, 2011, 12:30:51 PM
Episode 5 with a bunch more studio footage!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf9n39OWKzI
Tommy Morgan in there with the diatonic harmonica...

That's a chromatic one.

Of course it is, which is what I meant--but I was so woozy with delight I confused chromaticism with diatonism.  If it were diatonic it's not even really necessary to say so.  Can you believe it!  It would be like saying "ooh, look at his awesome 4-string ukulele."

So now that we can see that there's a clarinet in there, it almost slam dunks this being the 6/16/66 session the "Klezmer" version of the verse.

Pretty sure that's a soprano sax in there (at 1:50) not a clarinet. Keys are too big and it's conical shaped. Still probably the 6/16/66 session.
15  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Mike's Best Lyrics on: November 12, 2011, 01:42:49 PM
I remember both of us a few weeks ago were questioning how much of Good Vibes Mike wrote because he only ever talked about the chorus. With that in mind, though, one of the recent Beach Boys youtube videos shows him talking about writing other parts. I'm convinced that he wrote basically the full lyric with possibly a few things by Brian thrown in (certainly the title).

Don't remember seeing that interview, but I'll search it down.  Thanks, Rock&Roll.

Here's the clip. That part starts at about 1:45.

http://youtu.be/GfFb8jgmLD8
16  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: A Ten-episodes official web series on the SMiLE Sessions is now on YouTube on: November 10, 2011, 05:55:43 AM
Talked about it in a July 2000 Goldmine interview.

http://smilealbum.tripod.com/aljardine.htm
17  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The \ on: November 09, 2011, 12:53:46 PM
One of my all time (non-Brian) favs.  Great collaboration between Al, Mike and  Carl.  Always wondered who wrote the bulk of it? Or did the three combine three different tunes together.

I seem to remember hearing that “All this is that” started off as a song that Al based on the Robert Frost poem “The Road Not Taken” :

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

and then that was added to by Carl and Mike (Mike specifically adding all the TM references.)

I always thought that it sounded a lot like the folk tune “Raspberries, Strawberries”, especially the “Daybreak…” verses.

Also, the tune to:
“Two ways and I
both travel by”

sounds a lot like the tune to “His dreams have turned to dust” from “Raspberries, Strawberries”, the same melody The Beach Boys quote in “At My Window.”
Al does like quoting folk tunes.

Also gets my vote for the best Beach Boys’ song Brian had nothing to do with!
18  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Is Some of Smile Dispensable? on: October 08, 2011, 09:20:26 PM
Or the final word could be from 1966 Brian Wilson himself:

New Musical Express,   No. 1036,    18 November 1966

"Meanwhile ... what's Brian doing back at base?"
HOLLYWOOD, Tracy Thomas
While the Beach Boys are rocking Europe, BB-mastermind Brian Wilson, has not been resting on his and their laurels !
This week Brian’s working on the next Beach Boys’ single, another adventure in pop music called “Heroes And Villians,”…

Brian’s also working simultaneously on the next BB album, now entitled “Smile.”
“This LP will include ‘Good Vibrations’ and ‘Heroes And Villains’ and ten other tracks,” says Brian…

Find the one where "Vegetables" is named as the next single, it's the one where the meeting with McCartney is reported. Then I'll scan and post clippings detailing Smile as including "The next single Heroes And Villains" and other tracks by name yet not mentioning Good Vibrations, but specifically saying "twelve songs by Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks" (GV not falling under that umbrella) and another small magazine clipping detailing the history behind Good Vibrations stating Dennis was originally supposed to have sung the lead but got laryngitis and couldn't do it. Oh, and the Dennis interview where he claims to be the organ player in the slow section of Good Vibrations.

See the problem with those newspaper and fan-mag clippings?  Smiley

I’m not stating that every article from every magazine is 100% accurate. Some of them, like the one about the Vega-Tables single, are just statements made by the reporter. The one that lists the "twelve songs by Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks," but not GV, is based on a wire from Derek Taylor (article called “Beach Boys’ new disc lasts five minutes” from ’67.) However, the article I was referencing is an interview of Brian Wilson in November 1966 by reporter Tracy Thomas. Being interviewed, Brian makes the statement in November 1966 that: “This LP will include ‘Good Vibrations’ and ‘Heroes And Villains’ and ten other tracks.” It is a direct quote from Brian Wilson, at that time, stating his intentions.

Notice that it is also the only time Good Vibrations is brought up, the rest of the Brian quotes in the article are about Heroes and Villains and staying in touch with the Beach Boys in Europe. Why even bring GV up? So unless Tracy Thomas was just lying and making all kinds of stuff up, Brian Wilson said this. Right???


The issue wasn't whether Brian said this because he's quoted - that's obvious. The issue is the sentiment expressed by Anderle; perhaps it was about Smiley Smile, but what if it were not? Was it how Brian perhaps felt about Smile? Can it be proven from that quote either way? I don't think so.

Consider Anderle acting as the manager for Brian and the BB's would have had the most *direct* contact and communications with Capitol on many of these issues. More than perhaps Brian himself, in fact it's safe to assume that was the case. If Capitol said "we need a single to promote the album", would they not have dealt with Anderle who was the manager? His insight is key. If Brian were "forced" to do anything it would have gone through Anderle. What he was exactly forced to do and when is the issue.

Consider a few short points: Who made the decision to add the "Good Vibrations (x3)" banner to the Smile cover, and when was it added? Who made the decision to print adds hyping "the Good Vibrations sound"? It seems like standard practice from record companies, especially Capitol in 1966.


See, that’s why I like this article (the Tracy Thomas one.) The story always goes that Smile was compromised by the Beach Boys, the record company, etc. and Brian got down about it but I think this points in the other direction. This is also the first mention of any track list at all that I know of and it’s 12 tracks and includes GV, a good month before the disputed handwritten list. The Beach Boys hadn’t come back from Europe yet to “complain about all that weird music” and Good Vibrations had only just broken into the top 10, only been on the charts a few weeks.

As far as the cover goes, there is a memo dated 11/14/66 to Queens Litho stating: “CHANGE STEREO BAR ON NO T-2580 BEACH BOYS TO DUOPHONIC BAR FROM T-2545. IT PRINTS ALL BLACK.”
So if there is a version of the cover with a stereo bar on it that also includes the 3x’s Good Vibes then it is from sometime before the middle of November meaning the design goes back a reasonable amount of time before that. Good Vibrations was just starting to become a hit at the time the memo came out, two weeks earlier it was just entering into the top 40, at #38 so it was barely a hit. Now in July 1967 I could see Capitol pushing this #1 hit on a record but a #38 in October 1966 seems a little less important.

Also, you mention Brian’s feelings about Smile, being compromised and all. Ok, this actual interview must have taken place between November 11, 1966 (the previous issue of NME) and November 14, 1966 (the last Beach Boys date in Europe, since the article is about the Boys being in Europe) so we can hear exactly how Brian felt about Smile at the time: the Vega-Tables arguments (with Hal) took place on the 16th.

Finally, the Anderle interview. Reading that first little bit it’s hard to understand but with seeing the whole statement I read it like this:

David says, “Some of the songs are there, but he's recorded them in the house.”

Then he goes on to qualify that statement with the two tracks not rerecorded at the house:

“ "Heroes and Villains", yes, some of the tracks were from the original.”

AND


“Ah...he was forced to put 'Good Vibrations' on,”

So he is talking about what was recorded and not recorded at the house… Smiley Smile.
19  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Is Some of Smile Dispensable? on: October 08, 2011, 05:58:20 PM
Or the final word could be from 1966 Brian Wilson himself:

New Musical Express,   No. 1036,    18 November 1966

"Meanwhile ... what's Brian doing back at base?"
HOLLYWOOD, Tracy Thomas
While the Beach Boys are rocking Europe, BB-mastermind Brian Wilson, has not been resting on his and their laurels !
This week Brian’s working on the next Beach Boys’ single, another adventure in pop music called “Heroes And Villians,”…

Brian’s also working simultaneously on the next BB album, now entitled “Smile.”
“This LP will include ‘Good Vibrations’ and ‘Heroes And Villains’ and ten other tracks,” says Brian…

Find the one where "Vegetables" is named as the next single, it's the one where the meeting with McCartney is reported. Then I'll scan and post clippings detailing Smile as including "The next single Heroes And Villains" and other tracks by name yet not mentioning Good Vibrations, but specifically saying "twelve songs by Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks" (GV not falling under that umbrella) and another small magazine clipping detailing the history behind Good Vibrations stating Dennis was originally supposed to have sung the lead but got laryngitis and couldn't do it. Oh, and the Dennis interview where he claims to be the organ player in the slow section of Good Vibrations.

See the problem with those newspaper and fan-mag clippings?  Smiley

I’m not stating that every article from every magazine is 100% accurate. Some of them, like the one about the Vega-Tables single, are just statements made by the reporter. The one that lists the "twelve songs by Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks," but not GV, is based on a wire from Derek Taylor (article called “Beach Boys’ new disc lasts five minutes” from ’67.) However, the article I was referencing is an interview of Brian Wilson in November 1966 by reporter Tracy Thomas. Being interviewed, Brian makes the statement in November 1966 that: “This LP will include ‘Good Vibrations’ and ‘Heroes And Villains’ and ten other tracks.” It is a direct quote from Brian Wilson, at that time, stating his intentions.

Notice that it is also the only time Good Vibrations is brought up, the rest of the Brian quotes in the article are about Heroes and Villains and staying in touch with the Beach Boys in Europe. Why even bring GV up? So unless Tracy Thomas was just lying and making all kinds of stuff up, Brian Wilson said this. Right???
20  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Is Some of Smile Dispensable? on: October 08, 2011, 04:51:52 PM
Or the final word could be from 1966 Brian Wilson himself:

New Musical Express,   No. 1036,    18 November 1966

"Meanwhile ... what's Brian doing back at base?"
HOLLYWOOD, Tracy Thomas
While the Beach Boys are rocking Europe, BB-mastermind Brian Wilson, has not been resting on his and their laurels !
This week Brian’s working on the next Beach Boys’ single, another adventure in pop music called “Heroes And Villians,”…

Brian’s also working simultaneously on the next BB album, now entitled “Smile.”
“This LP will include ‘Good Vibrations’ and ‘Heroes And Villains’ and ten other tracks,” says Brian…
21  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: \ on: September 23, 2011, 03:07:36 PM
Didn't Van Dyke Parks mention that the lyric "Plymouth Rock" was in reference to the chicken:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_Rock_%28chicken%29

"Chicken Holidays", maybe some type of early Barnyard?
22  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: What I Find So Perplexing About the \ on: September 09, 2011, 08:03:22 PM

But what happened is - 'The Beach Boys returned from England, thought what Brian had come up with for the SMiLE record was too weird; so what happens? Brian junks the SMiLE album and they release an even WEIRDER album!! HUH???


Ok, this statement, I've never understood this. Check this out from Andrew's site.
From the timeline: "May (1967)  publicist Derek Taylor announces the abandonment of Smile in the rock press, the first mention being on the 2nd ."
But from the Shows & sessions you'll notice that the Beach Boys played their first show on the 1967 European Tour on May 2nd 1967 and had been playing an East Coast (US) Tour for the two weeks before they left for Europe.
So instead of the Boys coming back and saying we don't like this get rid of it, it looks more like Brian actually waited until they left the country to cancel it and the band couldn't do anything about it for two weeks, until they got back after their last show on the 19th.

I also remember reading that Derek Taylor had made an announcement after "Inside Pop" aired, April 26th, that the album was done and would soon be released, something like "all 12 track are complete" but I'll have to look that one up.
Weird timing when you look at the tour schedule.
23  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE Sessions box set! on: September 09, 2011, 07:30:11 PM
Telephone lyrics - no evidence they were ever recorded...
Toothbrush do-a-lot - only source is word of one shadowy collector...

I too doubt the telephone lyrics were ever recorded. And in any event, I am skeptical we'll get anything "new" on TSS regarding Cabin Essence, seeing as how the "missing" October 11 session does not appear to be referenced anywhere in the track listing. A small disappointment, that. (But not one that in any way overshadows my unimpeded ecstacy!)


There was no session for Cabin Essence on Oct. 11 1966. The wrong track name was put on the Session sheet. The Oct. 11 session was for Child is Father of the Man and produced the slow verse, the one BWPS used, and possible some of the other sections. So, there was only the Oct. 3 session for Cabin Essence (as Home on the Range) and no other sections recorded. There is a thread around here on this topic from a year or two back and Alan Boyd confirms this.

Also:

CD THREE
SESSION HIGHLIGHTS

CHILD IS FATHER OF THE MAN
16. Child Is Father of the Man (Version 1) (10/7/66) (4:57)
17. Child Is Father of the Man (Version 2) (10/11/66) (5:38)
24  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: GOOD VIBRATIONS promo video ex-ci-ta-tions on: September 08, 2011, 12:54:31 AM
The girl could be one of Marilyn's friends? Cool info - hope to hear more details! I just noticed you can see her very briefly on the sidewalk in the scene where the firemen are standing with Diane and Vosse drinking sodas.

The location of that ramp in the screenshot: This is exactly the kind of info I was hoping to see for the locations of these film shots! Awesome, thank you for posting that. I've been going off and on to Google Maps scanning around to see what these areas look like now.

Thanks to everyone putting out the information in this thread - this is a lot of fun solving some of these puzzles and questions from the film. Awesome stuff!



One other note on locations. My friend said the street you see in the background in the scene where they are running from the truck is called Dix and it runs to Ivar, he used to work at a place on Ivar, so the street they are running down is either Ivar or Holly and they are being filmed from the Freeway overpass. Also, the house with all the steps that they run down in fast motion is next to the Freeway on either Ivar or Holly, he remembers seeing it around there before.
25  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: GOOD VIBRATIONS promo video ex-ci-ta-tions on: September 08, 2011, 12:02:53 AM
This was the fire station which covered Hollywood and the Sunset Strip area. In the film the firetruck turns right out of the station onto Cole, and the station itself is still at 1355 N. Cahuenga. For the record, Wally Heider had his studio at 1604 N. Cahuenga, and all of this is located within a few miles of the Sunset Strip.

So the fire station and Wally Heider's studio was just a couple of streets over from Capitol Records and one street over from the Beach Boys' old business offices on N. Ivar.

Yes! Do you recognize any other landmarks or streets in the film, Mikie? It's all within a few mile radius...and here's an interesting shot: Isn't that the Capitol building in the background, in this shot where Brian and Vosse are getting sprayed?



Ok, I sent this video to my friend that lives in LA, he used to live in the Hollywood area and he recognized these locations right away. This street is the onramp from North Cahuenga Boulevard to the 101 (Hollywood Freeway) and the hill goes up to the freeway. It doesn’t have the plants on it now, just dirt.
The tunnel they go through on the fire truck is Holly Drive going north under the Hollywood Freeway, this is right off North Cahuenga. He said it’s a lot more built up around there now but the tunnel looks the same and you can still see the same looking hills when you drive over the freeway. He will send me pictures next time he goes over there.
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