I wonder what Tones was for. I've heard it was production training..

I don't know, if it was some sort of production training they spent a lot of time on it. Tones was worked on for what, 4 sessions? I think it's another Smile era song that had lyrics that are now lost to history.

Ah, that's a shame so much was not finished, especially the lyrics on Look. I was really hoping for that.

Do we know for certain that lyrics for Look were not written in 1966? Of course, it's possible the lost Oct. 1967 Look vocal session for wordless harmony vocals but I'd think it is just as possible the lads were singing something with words. I hope some light is cast on this in the Smile sessions booklet. Considering they sang on the track maybe Bruce, Al or Mike, not to mention, Brian remembers? It would be a shame if the question isn't asked.

Considering the name changed from Look to I Ran, it implies some kind of lyrical content had been designed for the song to go with a new title.

Excellent point, I hadn't thought of that.

[Hawthorne CA]

If I said Hawthorne CA, my bad - I meant Endless Harmony, and no, different thing entirely: 11/66 BW mono mix & edit, lasts 3.03. Superb. No vocals at all.

I wonder why this mix wasn't included in the box set? 

Do we know for sure it isn't? That would be a huge omission. There is an argument for it being the version to use on Disc One.

Ah, that's a shame so much was not finished, especially the lyrics on Look. I was really hoping for that.

Do we know for certain that lyrics for Look were not written in 1966? Of course, it's possible the lost Oct. 1967 Look vocal session for wordless harmony vocals but I'd think it is just as possible the lads were singing something with words. I hope some light is cast on this in the Smile sessions booklet. Considering they sang on the track maybe Bruce, Al or Mike, not to mention, Brian remembers? It would be a shame if the question isn't asked.

I believe the "Child" vocals on BWPS are modern lyrics by VDP.  Worms had verse vocals written by VDP but were never tracked by The Beach Boys.  The others tracks I believe all had modern vocals written for BWPS.

The thing is VDP has reportedly said he wrote lyrcis for "Child" in 1966. Assuing the disc one version doesn't have verse vocals I hope, at the least, the booklet will have new info on their fate.

A guy from this board e-mailed me today. He has an interview with Mike Love in a couple of days and asked me what I would like to ask Mike. Any ideas from the board members here that I can pass on?  

Ask him what I'm in Great Shape was and if he remembers any of the 1966 CITFOTM verse lyrics. I'm 75% kidding 

There is also doubt it came from Brian, although no-one knows at this stage. Carl or Diane Rovell are other possibilities.

So you think Diane Rovell wrote the list, brought it to the Capitol art dept and told them "use these titles in the LP art" behind Brian's back? Even if so do you think Capitol would get to work on it without Brian's approval?

It's not significant who wrote the list. It strains credibility to think that the producer of the LP would not be required to sign off on the track list before it was submitted to the art director. In fact, Cam Mott tracked down the art director at Capitol that did the Smile mockup, one George Osaka, and he said no artwork or printed material went without review and approval by the album's producer. This track list actually made it to the back cover mock up. No way that happens without Brian vetting it. Not in 1966.

That 66 'tracklisting' has never been confirmed as THE tracklisting - back covers were never printed up like the fronts - recording was done after it was written so its unlikely.

I think people forget that the titles on the handwritten list/back cover  on the back cover were submitted and approved by the LP producer,

1) The titles on the back cover mock up (not sequence, the titles) were approved by the LP producer, one Brian Wilson.

2) Brian did not work outside said titles until the announcement Smile was scrapped (he didn't work outside these titles in the preceding 3 months either).

3) There *aren't* any other lists. This is the only one from the era. It came from Brian himself --why not at least use it as a blueprint?

This is primary source evidence. Again, I'm talking about the songs, not the sequence. My argument is they should stick to those titles for the disc one reconstruction. Obviously there is a question mark surrounding things like what music falls under the IIGS title so some concessions are necessary.

My fear (perhaps unfounded) with a BWPS template is we will loose some of the fades. Something the 1966 Brian was a master of.

I always wonder about the people who think that Brian's SMiLE from 2004 sounded 'too clean and happy' as well, and that some of the 'spooky, dirty sound' had been sanitised away in the 2004 version. Is that simply because they'd been listening to muddy-sounding SMiLE boots on cassette for years, and couldn't take more hi-fi versions?

I don't think so. Cabinessence has as much of "the spook" as anything and we've had a hi-fi version since 1968. If we had the '66 Child in similar fidelity I wouldn't think the spook would be diminished.

For me a comparison of the BWPS Cabinessence (not to mention Good Vibrations) to the 1966 versions illustrates the shortcomings of BWPS.

Yeah, people complain about the sound of BWPS...on CD. But I also recall hearing people say BWPS sounds amazing on vinyl.

Eh, the best BWPS mastering in the world can't change the fact it uses Kurzweil digital samples rather than a real harpsichord. This is why I prefer the sound of a poor tape dub of a beat up 1966 acetate over BWPS. Just my .02.

Well, there's no doubt that there's a second movement. Brian wrote the melody, Parks wrote the lyrics, and it was demoed. The question is whether or not Brian figured out what he was going to do with it, and recorded it. As for the former, I honestly find it difficult to believe that at the height of his creative peak, Brian would have figured out the first movement and not the second..

Well said, all things considered it seems likely he had a fair idea plotted out re the 2nd movement. The question that exercises me the most is how did not only Brian but *everyone* in his orbit develop collective amnesia re the 2nd movement in just 3 years? This was THE song of the era, something BW and VDP were really proud of. It would make sense if Carl, Desper and BW got together in '71 and decided they didn't like the '67 idea and went in another direction but it seems no one was even aware  the song was more complete, recorded or not, than the 1st movement track and solo piano version.

I wouldn't expect the 2004 model BW to remember but was music Brian composed for such a huge song already gone forever in '71? I guess it's possible he didn't have an idea how the 2nd movement track would go but that doesn't seem like the '66 model Brian Wilson.

I never could make that much of the oft-quoted 'modular method of writing songs' etc.

I'm glad you said that.  That quote jumped out at me in the Mojo article and gave me pause.  The idea that his working method was to first record these fragments and then "write" or assemble them into complete songs seems so obviously wrong and does a disservice to the material.  I mean, clearly he had the song first right? Even  take 1 of "Good Vibrations", the modular granddaddy of them all, isn't THAT different than the 45.

The Mojo article and interview is so poor. It's like the Larry King interview approach..

But wasn't one of Brian's reasons for abandoning SMiLE the fact that he had only recorded "bits" that he didn't know how to string together? Clearly this wasn't the case for many of the songs ("Cabin Essence" and "Surf's Up" for example), but perhaps it was true for enough of them that Brian feels the statement is accurate. For BWPS, he just accepted that certain tracks would be bits strung together instead of properly-structured songs which is how he may have originally envisioned SMiLE.

I was thinking about the structure of the other Smile songs...Worms, Child, Wind Chimes, Cabinessence, Wonderful, etc all have verse/chorus/verse structure. Of course, Brian was often recording in sections during the period but the songs he was writing were the usual verse/chorus/verse format.

I agree. I'm In Great Shape had so much potential. Just listen to the piano demo. One of the most playful and original melodies I've ever heard. "Freshen air around my head/mornings tumble out of bed/eggs and grits and lickety-SPLIT. look at me jump I'm in the great shape of the open country...". I want more!

I can't imagine the 1966 model "I'm In Great Shape" resembled what is on BWPS. Brian's songs from that era had a verse/chorus/verse structure where the BWPS version is really a bunch of bits strung together. I'd bet the "eggs & grits" section was the verse or chorus and cycled through the song. Of course, there were Great Shape sessions we don't have tapes for so we don't really know how complete it was in 1966.

Speaking of...anyone know if the 'best' take of the short 'eggs & grits' instrumental was snipped off the reel? None of the 3 takes in circulation were the 'best' take or am I thinking of something else?

.

.

[The Doors]

Don't know as much about The Doors as I did back in the 80s, but all bar one track on The Doors has Ray's Fender Rhodes Bass instead of a real one..

Ray's piano bass was recorded with the basic track but Larry Knetchel was brought in to overdub bass guitar on several songs. Soul Kitchen, 20th Century Fox, Light My Fire, I Looked at You and a few more have a real bass plus Ray's piano bass. Listen to the I Looked at You intro...that bass sound screams wrecking crew.

.

The Wiki page re Jimi's death is full of errors. By all accounts (EMT, ambulance drivers, police, doctor at the hospital, etc.) Jimi had dead for several hours before he was placed in the ambulance..

32 questions (!) and no mention of 1966 CITFOTM lyrics or the fabled Surf's Up "second movement"? Some good questions for sure but IMO some of them seem fanciful. For example, why would anyone think "Old Man River" was intended for a revamped Smile?

If someone has the ear of Brian or VDP I hope they don't ask questions like "what does 'over and over the crow cries uncover the cornfield' mean" or "who wrote the handwritten track list" that was given to Capitol"..

13. It's generally presumed that "Can't Wait Too Long" isn't a SMiLE track yet...one version seems to contain recorded bits at the end from H&V, if I recall correctly. "Wait" was never finished. What's the story on that track, and does it actually have any connection to the SMiLE project?

What makes you think Can't Wait Too Long was a Smile track? It was first recorded during the Wild Honey sessions. Was Had To Phone Ya a Smile track because bits of it sound similar to Love To Say Da Da?

2. What really is "Air"? Did you do a demo? Did the piece get recycled into anything else?

I'd love to be wrong but it seems clear no one remembers what Air was.

Exactly who wrote the Smile "song list" that was given to Capitol.  It obviously isn't your handwriting?

I don't see how it is relevant considering the titles on the list came from the producer of the album--some guy named Brian Wilson  

Was "You're Welcome" EVER intended for the Smile album??

Plenty of evidence shows it was not intended for the LP.

Was Smile to be individual tracks of a normal album length - or were there "link" tracks and "everything but the kitchen sink" to press the bounds of a 1967 album length?

Without doubt Smile was going to be an album comprised of 12 distinct, separate tracks with no segues, links or crossfades (save for within "The Elements"). There is no compelling argument to be made contrary to this.

I'm not convinced that just because he didn't go back and rework it that it wasn't meant to be a SMiLE cut.

Possible but none of the evidence supports that at all. It's not that he didn't go back and rework it...it's that it was abandoned in an unfinished state after a single session very early in the Smile sessions. It wasn't returned to during the next 7-8 months of sessions, it isn't on the handwritten list, wasn't mentioned in interviews, etc. The fact of the matter is Brian did not work outside of the titles on the handwritten track list in the preceding 3 months or subsequent 6 months to any significant degree. Of course, we don't know what pieces of music would've comprised a few of the tracks, IIGS or The Elements example.

Sure, it's possible in some alternate universe where Smile is finished in 1967 Holidays would be used but based on unambiguous evidence we have it's unlikely. Some people here seem to use the fact that Smile was not finished as a license to discard the reams of 1966-67 evidence at hands. We'll never know for sure what form a 1967 Smile would have but a cursory look at the period evidence certainly shows us some possibilities were much more likely than others.

Who wrote the Mojo article? I remember being dissapointed with the big Smile feature Mojo did in 2004. Lots of references to the 'Earth Chant" and other made up merda.

Who says it was a vote?

Peter Reum.