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680597 Posts in 27600 Topics by 4068 Members - Latest Member: Dae Lims March 28, 2024, 11:38:46 AM
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76  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Backing Vox 'Let's go away...' on: March 26, 2016, 10:26:36 AM
hehe - I think its interesting but then if something interests me I can explore it to the nth degree.

I wouldn't sit talking to myself though - if other people stop posting the thread will drop off.


This is the most fascinatingly dumb thread. I feel like I've learned both something and absolutely nothing from it at the same time.
77  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Backing Vox 'Let's go away...' on: March 26, 2016, 10:06:41 AM
aha - at 1:51 I just noticed what could be a part of the 'voice' in the percussion - can anyone else hear what could be part of the plosive (is that the right word..?) the 'd' there..?

Or is there some string plucking..?  Or percussion + strings..?

I can't hear it on the backing track which would mean its from day 2..?
78  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Backing Vox 'Let's go away...' on: March 26, 2016, 08:50:20 AM
I think it would be really interesting to see what some non BBs musicians think of it but also engineers as I think they are more used to the bleeds/FX etc that recordings can have.

I'd expect any musician to be highly impressed with the track, esp the fade-out, its stunning.


I'd also consider in all seriousness sharing that video "LGA" with some musician friends, preferably flautists or arrangers/composers who have written for flute, and ask them what they think that initial sound heard in the video could be. If I remove myself from it I probably wouldn't say "alto flute" as the first impression.
I think that's a good idea. I think the smooth bend is done with the breath, as you can hear someone doing in the video I posted, but I also hear a tap in there. Just toward the end of the measure.
79  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Backing Vox 'Let's go away...' on: March 26, 2016, 08:20:39 AM
OK H I may sound pedantic to you but its not for the sake of it.

In these kinds of discussions I've seen it repeated over and over again that logs aren't 100% reliable.  Someone could be booked but dropped out of the arrangement - I'm not saying that happened here but its an obvious thing that could happen, no mystery.

Sorry but it hasn't been proved to me that there isn't a vox or some form of vocalizing on there.  I've gone from 90% sure to like 5% sure so I am definitely listening with great interest to what you say.

Yes yes I can hear all the reverb on the OD but hearing it alone would be ideal.


Yeah it was me 90% sure and I'm still not convinced there isn't a voice in there - its definitely not been proved there isn't

It's been proved to the extent that, I dunno, relativity has been proved.

Quote
You know that session logs aren't 100% reliable.

You keep saying this but I've found them to be remarkably accurate, which really is not surprising considering being on there facilitated getting paid for services rendered.

Quote
I'd love to hear the OD that H has heard although if its swimming in reverb with a few things going on it could still be difficult to define.

If you can't tell that the overdub is utterly awash in reverb without hearing it isolated...well, that might explain why you think the Double Rock Baptist Choir is on there...
80  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Backing Vox 'Let's go away...' on: March 26, 2016, 08:08:13 AM
That's some pretty impressive analyzing sir Smiley  I wish we could hear the ODs on their own.

I'd have a go at mimicking the sound but I've only got Garageband at home, its too crude.


The mystery sound is not an oboe - at this point, I'm convinced it's either alto flute or clarinet - Emily, as you are familiar with the characteristics of the alto flute, would you please do us a favor and listen to the section of LGAFA from 1:56 to 2:10 (this is the timecode from the stereo mix - I assume the mono is the same, or very very close to it). Starting at 1:56, we hear the mystery sound (as we have earlier in the song), then at 1:58 that same mystery instrument plays a line that sounds very similar (to me) to a saxophone (either alto or high tenor), so that's what makes me think it might possibly be a clarinet (an instrument which possesses sonic characteristics of both low flute and high saxophone). That phrase is repeated at 2:06. If you say an alto flute is capable of producing that sound, then it's a done deal in my mind, and I will officially consider it to be an alto flute until the end of time. Yes, that same instrument does have some "vocal-like" qualities here-and-there in this song, particularly when it enters at 1:22 and again at 1:56. There is a slight "d" plosive - I can hear it, no problem - but it's the effect of blowing into the woodwind, accentuated by the echo and possibly by a compressor. Of that I am convinced.

As for the oboe - that enters at 1:24, and is playing a line on top of the horn line. To understand what I'm talking about, first listen to the basic track (Track 21 of Disc One in the official Capitol Pet Sounds Sessions box set), starting at 1:24. You will notice that the top line you're used to hearing is absent - that is because it's played by the oboe on the string/woodwind overdub session. Now, if you listen to the stereo mix itself (Track 6 from the same disc), or the original mono mix, starting at 1:24, you can hear the oboe join the horn section, and at 1:28 it splits off into it's own top line, climbing higher than the horns. That part is the oboe - it is absent form the basic track mix on Track 21, but it is present on the final mix. It's much more "up front" than the mystery sound, and it's not submerged in echo as the mystery instrument is.
81  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Backing Vox 'Let's go away...' on: March 26, 2016, 07:27:40 AM
Yeah it was me 90% sure and I'm still not convinced there isn't a voice in there - its definitely not been proved there isn't - but I'm not arguing for it any more, if its flutes its flutes.

You know that session logs aren't 100% reliable.

I'd love to hear the OD that H has heard although if its swimming in reverb with a few things going on it could still be difficult to define.


Don't read the thread.

We were told it was definitely a flute.  Now it might be an oboe.  Someone else thinks its strings. 

Some of us are obviously interested in trying to pin down exactly what is on the track.

Why do people keep jumping into threads they've got no interest in..?
 

I'm minded of a thread some years ago where a poster insisted that there was a few seconds of the original "God Only Knows" used in the video of Brian's rerecording for the Target CD. That thread went well past the point of screaming insanity too.

Because, originally, someone was 90% certain it was vocals, and when that was proven not to be the case, someone else claimed it was some instrument that's not actually on the overdub or AFM sheet.
82  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Backing Vox 'Let's go away...' on: March 26, 2016, 05:46:40 AM
sorry double post - can mods delete this one..?
83  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Backing Vox 'Let's go away...' on: March 26, 2016, 05:45:10 AM
Don't read the thread.

We were told it was definitely a flute.  Now it might be an oboe.  Someone else thinks its strings. 

Some of us are obviously interested in trying to pin down exactly what is on the track.

Why do people keep jumping into threads they've got no interest in..?
 

I'm minded of a thread some years ago where a poster insisted that there was a few seconds of the original "God Only Knows" used in the video of Brian's rerecording for the Target CD. That thread went well past the point of screaming insanity too.
84  Non Smiley Smile Stuff / Smiley Smilers Who Make Music / Re: My 1963 Beatles Soundalike Attempt on: March 26, 2016, 03:51:49 AM
nice tune Smiley  it actually reminds me of 'Misery' a bit but not enough to be a problem
85  Non Smiley Smile Stuff / Smiley Smilers Who Make Music / Re: Caroline, No [Cover] on: March 26, 2016, 03:47:01 AM
very well done Smiley
86  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Backing Vox 'Let's go away...' on: March 26, 2016, 02:25:32 AM
Well I can hear oboe even less than I can hear flute on the section - However I'm prepared to believe it is if that's what it is Smiley  I'm going to check out some oboe stuff on youtube.

I suppose I could use some recordings and try to replicate the effect but I don't think it would come  to much - I think the room will have had a lot to do with it.

Aeijtzsche - I'm wondering if it's not a clarinet rather than some kind of flute? The part at 1:58 and again at 2:06 has qualities that I would call "saxophone-like". A clarinet has qualities of both alto flute and saxophone...

Well here's a question for you:  I have not seen the actual AFM sheet for the OD, just the list of people on it--and I've seen a list with Steve Douglas on it and a list without him on it.  Jules Jacob seems like a jack-of-all trades woodwinds kind of guy (he played on some Zappa records).  If both of them are on there, I would concede that maybe Steve is playing flute and Jules is playing a clarinet in unison.  I agree that there's a reedy cast to it, but I still hear, fundamentally, a flute.

I believe Jules Jacobs is playing oboe on the LGAFA overdub...Brian mentions oboe as one of the instruments in that very detailed 1967 description of the ensemble he utilized for this piece of music (he doesn't mention flute, but he doesn't mention clarinet either). I can hear the oboe in the overdub playing the new line which sits on top of the horn line from the basic track. Jacobs frequently played oboe, so I imagine he played it here. Steve Douglas IS on the overdub AFM contract (he was the session leader), and I think he's playing the mystery instrument: he frequently played sax, flute, and clarinet for Brian. So the two woodwinds on the overdub are not playing in unison at all.
87  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Backing Vox 'Let's go away...' on: March 25, 2016, 12:09:03 PM
ok - got to dash now but will later

Yeah, I can't help beyond posting two different links if it's being blocked outside the US. Look up the track "Goofin At The Coffee House" from Mancini's "More Music From Peter Gunn" and listen to the alto flute solo.
88  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Backing Vox 'Let's go away...' on: March 25, 2016, 11:58:19 AM
still no - I'll do a search for UK flute hunters
89  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Backing Vox 'Let's go away...' on: March 25, 2016, 11:47:18 AM
flute vid not available - guitarfool are you in the USA..?
90  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Backing Vox 'Let's go away...' on: March 25, 2016, 11:31:42 AM
in lga2 I'm sure I can hear bending though - I think that's partly why I'm not hearing it as a flute

I don't think its impossible there's something in there bending..?

OK - In the interest of having everyone's ears listening to the same thing, and getting more ears on the case and letting those ears be the judge, here are the two most prominent examples of the sounds Mike M. has been posting about. I did some quick edits and repeated each segment 5 times, then put them up on YouTube.

First one is "LGA", the pitch-bending/vibrato heard at 1:22 on the original:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRqRUSD_ebs

Second is "LGA 2", from approx. 1:54 on the original

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPcPw20AEZE




Commentary: I'm doubting my own ears on the first LGA. There is a pitch bend or waver up and down that a flute or most double or single reed woodwinds would not do quite that way, but which that pitch-bent vibes technique could produce. There is a specific modulation and waver in that sound which is unique and unusual. I just don't know at this point.

LGA2: I hear a combination of woodwinds playing in unison, several instruments combining to create that "new" timbre...I hear what could be an alto flute combined with a clarinet played in its lower register, or even an upper register of a bass clarinet. (The reason I put that photo of Jay Migliori in the video is because in that same film, he's shown with a bass clarinet at that particular GV session)

Let your ears be the judge.

My ears have judged that  a flute cannot play in that register, but an alto flute can.
91  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Backing Vox 'Let's go away...' on: March 25, 2016, 11:10:20 AM
superb Smiley

in lga2 I can hear what sounds to me like a vibes strike at 0:12 - could be an artifact

a few of you are hearing flutes so there must be a flute range I've never heard before - if so I've learned something Smiley



OK - In the interest of having everyone's ears listening to the same thing, and getting more ears on the case and letting those ears be the judge, here are the two most prominent examples of the sounds Mike M. has been posting about. I did some quick edits and repeated each segment 5 times, then put them up on YouTube.

First one is "LGA", the pitch-bending/vibrato heard at 1:22 on the original:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRqRUSD_ebs

Second is "LGA 2", from approx. 1:54 on the original

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPcPw20AEZE




Commentary: I'm doubting my own ears on the first LGA. There is a pitch bend or waver up and down that a flute or most double or single reed woodwinds would not do quite that way, but which that pitch-bent vibes technique could produce. There is a specific modulation and waver in that sound which is unique and unusual. I just don't know at this point.

LGA2: I hear a combination of woodwinds playing in unison, several instruments combining to create that "new" timbre...I hear what could be an alto flute combined with a clarinet played in its lower register, or even an upper register of a bass clarinet. (The reason I put that photo of Jay Migliori in the video is because in that same film, he's shown with a bass clarinet at that particular GV session)

Let your ears be the judge.
92  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Backing Vox 'Let's go away...' on: March 25, 2016, 09:30:17 AM
and to identify it precisely (ish) my sketch of the 'voice' part - this is programmed by me and is just a flute and reverb/algorithm thing doubled

https://soundcloud.com/spooky-music

'lets go'
93  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Backing Vox 'Let's go away...' on: March 25, 2016, 09:27:33 AM
Yeah sure - the 'sighs are at 0:57 and 1:22 - much clearer at 1:22 which is the one my producer buddy thinks is a pitch-bending vibraphone.

The 'voice' comes in at 1:54 and continues to fade - the 'voice' to me has a similar sound to the 'sighs' which would make sense if its all flutes as H thinks.

I'm not strongly arguing for what it is - I can't hear any flute in those 3 places though and neither can my producer buddy.  He thinks there are vibes on the end section.  However on the mix of the pad I heard today there aren't any.  Could be on the OD even though not logged.

I don't think its impossible some BVs are on there whether logged or not (or even possibly some kind of vocalizing through an instrument at the tracking) but I'm not arguing for it.  If its flutes its flutes.



Mike M - Watch this video (this is the stereo remaster), and for my own sake, and to know exactly what to listen for, post the exact track times where you're hearing the sounds and would like to get other ears on it. Since this is stereo, maybe list which channel the specific sounds are heard as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbAA4_B8k0I

With so many versions and so I'm not grabbing the wrong version, let's use this one as a reference for now, then we can build on it and post others more specific.
94  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Backing Vox 'Let's go away...' on: March 25, 2016, 08:35:25 AM
OK.

Can you think of any examples on youtube..?  I'm all ears. I'd love to hear flutes doing that kind of sound.
 

I really wish we could all sit round a table and play the track - preferably with a flute there so H could demo what he means.  

What she means.
95  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Backing Vox 'Let's go away...' on: March 25, 2016, 06:28:38 AM
I really wish we could all sit round a table and play the track - preferably with a flute there so H could demo what he means.  I've tried and tried to hear flutes but what I'm hearing sounds like vibes and a voice in unison and always has since I first heard it in mono in 1988.  I'm not arguing that's what it is though  3D

I had a good look through youtube trying to find flutes doing something similar but couldn't.  There must be something out there though.


Aeijtzsche - I'm wondering if it's not a clarinet rather than some kind of flute? The part at 1:58 and again at 2:06 has qualities that I would call "saxophone-like". A clarinet has qualities of both alto flute and saxophone...

Well here's a question for you:  I have not seen the actual AFM sheet for the OD, just the list of people on it--and I've seen a list with Steve Douglas on it and a list without him on it.  Jules Jacob seems like a jack-of-all trades woodwinds kind of guy (he played on some Zappa records).  If both of them are on there, I would concede that maybe Steve is playing flute and Jules is playing a clarinet in unison.  I agree that there's a reedy cast to it, but I still hear, fundamentally, a flute.
96  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Backing Vox 'Let's go away...' on: March 25, 2016, 05:18:34 AM
I think being able to hear the ODs would be very revealing.

I thought I could hear snatches of 'the voice' on the basic track but I think its just my brain putting it in because its used to hearing it there.

Definitely no vibes on the end section track-only from the box set.


Aeijtzsche - I'm wondering if it's not a clarinet rather than some kind of flute? The part at 1:58 and again at 2:06 has qualities that I would call "saxophone-like". A clarinet has qualities of both alto flute and saxophone...
97  Non Smiley Smile Stuff / Smiley Smilers Who Make Music / demos on: March 25, 2016, 03:39:00 AM
a few demos folks Smiley

https://soundcloud.com/spooky-music
98  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Backing Vox 'Let's go away...' on: March 24, 2016, 09:21:05 AM
I'm talking about the basic track.  I'd like to listen to it regardless of this discussion - can you email it to me..?

I own the box set but haven't got it handy.

Or can anyone else post it..?  There's a chunk of the session on youtube but only about 30 odd seconds.


Not on the pad/backing track..?  I haven't got my box set so I can't check - if you've checked the backing track and they aren't there then just say so.

I'm not saying I can hear them play a melody there.


You may hear vibes. That doesn't alter the fact that they're simply not there.

Of course there are vibes on the basic track... but, as Craig has pointed out so many times, not on the overdub you're talking about. He's told you what it is. The only problem is, he's not telling you what you want to hear, so you're  running it into the ground.

Bottom line ? Doesn't matter. It being vibes won't cure cancer or bring back 30-odd Belgiansi from the dead.
99  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Backing Vox 'Let's go away...' on: March 24, 2016, 08:45:05 AM
Well it would depend on the audio available I think.  If I could hear the end of the backing track and there's no vibes at all on it then I'd accept it and everyone would see that and that would be the end of that small disagreement  Smiley

Threads are definitely a very laborious way of discussing this type of thing.

Sat round a table and armed with audio it would be much quicker to resolve.


I think we had enough of this!
Let's get back to Rocky topic Grin
I doubt it, honestly. I think that, with more or less reason, people have different opinions here and face-to-face or not, it doesn't seem to be changing.
100  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Backing Vox 'Let's go away...' on: March 24, 2016, 07:51:01 AM
Threads are definitely a very laborious way of discussing this type of thing.

Sat round a table and armed with audio it would be much quicker to resolve.


I think we had enough of this!
Let's get back to Rocky topic Grin
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