When you think about it the 45 only really has TWO musical ideas:  the verse melody (with slight variations) and the chorus.

So the Nov demo has more distinct ideas than the 45 i.e. three.  However the 45 is very cleverly planned out so that you don't notice this.

Sooo:  the Nov parts could have worked if produced and sequenced properly.  A caveat is that I don't think IIGS is a very interesting melody - the backing track and harmonies probably were going to do a lot of the heavy lifting on that section.

For my own personal mix I've got no problem dropping the BR section down a semitone and putting it in place of IIGS - cheating but quite mild cheating I reckon

If Prelude has the original master umber doesn't that mean it was for the single..?

I don't think Cantina is a good mix for a single and neither did the team at the time otherwise it would have been released..?

The Cantina section was very briefly around - Marilyn said she only heard it twice.

I don't mean to flog a dead horse but Cantina appears to have been created then discarded very quickly.

Hi BR - in the notes in the box set the chorus is logged as 'part 2' not 'side 2'.

In the single it is indeed part 2.

Could have been both - part 2 of side 2..?


 "the chorus, for example, was tracked with a different master number (57045 vs. 57020) and was marked as "Heroes bridge" and as "Heroes and Villains side 2."  

Oh sure - 'prelude' is defiinitely a version of 'my children'.

I can see how the piano demo sequence could have worked with a fully realised IIGS, a couple more verses, and maybe a further section.  The problem for us doing our own mixes is the unfinished nature of IIGS.   I suppose a more fleshed out version could be created but its cheating.

Also a bit of a cheat but BR could replace IIGS in that section - you'd have to pitch it half a step though.  Not a monumental cheat as a version of that music was used as the chorus of the 45 - also VDP told me the BR lyrics were done for H&V - presumably for the B side..?

But yeah: verses - IIGS - verses - something - barnyard does seem like very likely early sequence.

If I remember rightly Van Dyke said something along the lines of them having written the entire song the first night they worked together, all 'except one section' or something which I guessed was either Great Shape or Barnyard.

Don't wanna go down the route of "what could've been done in December that we're just missing", but from February Prelude to Fade seems like a very plausible candidate for a 'so long to the city' backing track to me. It's a variation on the verse music with altered chords (like Children Were Raised and Barbershop), Brian calls for a slower tempo "for vocal reasons", the strings are echoing the verse backing vocal melodies but not the lead melody, and the title is self explanatory for its position in the song.

Oh I never knew all the verse lyrics were written in one go.  Could he have meant that all the verse lyrics for the 45 were written at the same time..?

RE: The Feb 10 'Cantina' mix, Chuck Britz wasn't involved in the editing/mixing. I'm sure he would've done some editing tracks like Good Vibrations and Do You Like Worms where the songs were assembled before vocals were dubbed to a complete mono track, but H&V wasn't constructed that way and any mixing at that stage would've been done at Columbia. The Feb 10 mix in particular is definitely a Columbia edit, engineer unconfirmed, but a note from Marilyn about the Cantina laughter (added while the group were in Miami) suggests it was Ralph Valentin.

I can believe that it was considered a finished A-side at the time it was mixed, but Brian obviously went back on that call a few days later when he added Prelude to Fade and the first version of the chorus in Abm. Key here is the missing lyrics - Van Dyke has confirmed that all of the verses were written on the same night. I don't normally like speculating on things like this but it's probably a safe assumption that 'stand or fall' and 'so long to the city' factored into an earlier version before they were put down on tape in June, whether that was December or February, or whether or not they were actually recorded at the time.

I don't think that's quite right..?  It was definitely a test mix yes but a final mix for release..?   I don't think thats ever been stated apart from by Dom Priore..?

He was straight back in recording 'prelude' a few days after the mixdown so it seems to me it was either  a rough assembly or an attempt at a final song but rejected almost immediately if you allow time for coming up with 'prelude'.

To each his own regarding the Britz single mix and opinions thereof. But it was and is the only fully realized final mix of Heroes that exists prior to the summer 67 released version, and this was the one that would have been waiting for release had that happened as planned.

Notice it was cut to run 4 seconds under 3 minutes, the gold standard for a pop single release. Clearly no accident.

I think there is a tendency to place more weight or importance on test edits, fragments, speculation, and mixes done 4 or 5 decades after the fact instead of looking at what actually does exist in terms of what was actually prepared for a possible release. The Britz mix stands as one of the few examples of the latter and shows precisely what Brian wanted at that moment in time.

Where did the info come from regarding the scrapping of this mix within a few days?

Ref the Cantina mix:   it doesn't work for me as a complete song.  It has many brilliant sections of course but I find it too jumpy.   I don't like the laughing FX I think they're clumsy and should have been suggested by instruments.   I don't like 'you're under arrest/train whistle' - at least not for repeated listens.  I also don't like the feedback dead-stop -  I mean its cool but for repeated listens..?  I think its jarring.

Having said that the first time I heard the mix I laughed in astonishment.  I know this what Brian was going for.

So I do think Cantina could work as a hit 45 if smoothed out with a couple more sections.  Presumably Brian though similar as I think the mix only stood for a couple of days or so..?

Ah so the Durrie Parks edit is from December..?   I think its a safe be the main melody would always have come back after those initial 4 verses - the 'my children' melody is basically the main melody.

I think your sequence below is a very logical one and would flow.   IIGS I'm sure would have been layered up to be real ear candy - I think this because all the other fully produced sections are + what we have of IIGS just sounds like the basis without the harmonies/FX etc.

Its also possible there were sections we don't know about due to them being detailed but no tapes to be found.
 

At the time of the piano demo in November the song consisted of the two verses, IIGS, and then "another section" Barnyard, which was likely planned as the final section/fade (as it was replaced by the similar "false Barnyard" or tag to Old Master Painter in the Feb cantina version).  What we don't know is what was between IIGS and Barnyard, but Brian mentioned "we're still working" so clearly what was to go in the middle was still undecided.  The December acetate reveals that one edit Brian was considering was IIGS (new version)/"my children were raised . . . healthy wealthy and often wise" fast section/Heroes shortened verse (for "three score and five").  I have to think Brian would also have included an a capella section as he did in both cantina and the final version, most likely (considering the Dec acetate) right after the three score and five.  So we have:

verses/IIGS/children were raised/three score and five/a capella/Barnyard

The Dec "intro" was recorded as Heroes Part 3 so the only place it could go based on the above would be after the a capella section and before Barnyard.

Of course I realize this has all been hashed over a million times but the Durrie Parks clip for instance definitely shows there is material missing.

I think Barnyard makes a fine chorus but the problem is getting back out of it and back into the main song - I've never heard an edit that manages this successfully.

Circa Occtober '66 H&V seems to have consisted of just the bits from the piano demo + maybe the early 'intro' bit.  Not much of a song really is it - just 3 fairly disjointed sections.  There are apparently quite a few missing session tapes for it from nov/dec so presumably there was other stuff recorded to fill it out..?

Or possibly those initial 3 sections repeated a bit more to fill it out.  IIGS I think was probably going to have more overdubs on it - presumably the texture was to be in keeping with Barnyard..?  Just guessing of course but the IIGS bits we have I don't think sound fully produced.  The snippet Mark caught on his phone actually does sound more like it production wise.

So do people think he recorded those initial 3 bits then got stuck and left it - or was it much more complete but he then decided to revise it after christmas and start adding Cantina etc..?

None of the earlier edits of H&V flow properly despite various attempts to sort the problem.

The single does flow but is oddly produced.

I don't really like the IIGS section - I'm not surprised it was removed.  Also the Cantina is OK but not a favourite - I think the piano part is very good but its one of the few time I think Brian could have come up with a better melody.

I absolutely love Barnyard.  Its got a spooky feel despite the humorous aspects.  Ideally I'd tone down some of the animal FX a bit esp the 'moo' which is a bit too mooey.

I think Barnyard would work great as  a repeated mid 8 or chorus except for the fact that you can't really get back out of it using existing pieces - it has to go at the end.

I can see why IIGS and Cantina were quite quickly dropped.  I think the 'bicycle' rider' melody is a much stronger section although I wish he'd produced it differently for the single - I find the choruses draggy and a bit odd whereas when its in 'Worms' its very well realized.

Probably, yeah. The guy who originally heard the Durrie Parks acetates at the auction (and confirmed the new Great Shape is what he heard back then) reported that there was a partial backing track edit consisting of this Great Shape, then into an unheard version of Children Were Raised (with a harpsichord but with the 'often wise' ending), and finally into the verse backing track from the "three score and five" cue.

Yes you're right.

So presumably the IIGS and Barnyard sections were the middle 8 and fade of an early version of H&V..?

I wonder how long that version stood..?

I think Cantina and Sunshine replaced IIGS and Barnyard and the latter were moved to the new song IIGS..?
 

Sunshine fade is Ab7 to Db in 4/4, Great Shape is Ab7 to Ebm7 in 3/4. Some similarities, but one couldn't pass for an alternate arrangement of the other.

What do you make the chords in the IIGS snippet..?  It seems to start in G sharp and then go to C sharp - I think there's prob some passing chords in there but I'm not too hot at transcribing.

The snippet seems to loop..?

I think the actual Barnyard, False Barnyard, and IIGS all stem from these chords don't they..?  (Prob noted as C sharp and G sharp originally).  This isn't much of a clue ofc as the song is in C sharp.

EDIT:  IIGS is G sharp > D sharp m7..?  I thought it went to C sharp but it doesn't does it.?

They're a completely different chord progression, it's definitely not from the Sunshine session. Most likely contender is the H&V session at Western on December 19.

OK I've just heard the snippet of the Durrie Parks 'Great Shape' section - thats on the end of CIFOTM on the 'Wake the World' compilation from last year.

To me it sounds like part of the early takes of 'part 2' i.e. 'false barnyard' while it was still kind of a jig - before they smoothed it out.  The 'smoothing' was done live on the day as they worked through it.

Can anyone else hear this..?

I don't think there was anything new in the Durrie Parks acetates..?  Apart from the H&V sequence..?  Although seeing the full list are we sure that wasn't just sections put next to each other for reference..?

Hello.  There's no mention in that auction list of the different edit of H&V..?

Also it looks to me like this:

Disc 1/Side A/  1.  0:42-1:10 portion of “Cabin Essence” (20/20 version.)/ 2. “Heroes & Villains Verse (Master Take)” (with two more seconds of count-off  than box set .) 

really describes sections just next to each other for convenience rather than a true edit of a song..?  Which makes me wonder if the alt H&V is indeed a proper mix or just sections put next to each other for reference.

Yeah, I just sequenced them like that. Sort of like that time Wilson played all those various sections to his friends. The track-listing is really arbitrary due to the fragmented and confusing nature of the material. It doesn’t necessarily delve into what a true edit of “Heroes and Villains” could’ve been in 1966; hence why I called this project a ‘compilation’ more than anything else.

Hello.  There's no mention in that auction list of the different edit of H&V..?

Also it looks to me like this:

Disc 1/Side A/  1.  0:42-1:10 portion of “Cabin Essence” (20/20 version.)/ 2. “Heroes & Villains Verse (Master Take)” (with two more seconds of count-off  than box set .) 

really describes sections just next to each other for convenience rather than a true edit of a song..?  Which makes me wonder if the alt H&V is indeed a proper mix or just sections put next to each other for reference.

There is a Smile mix where the "With Me Tonight" (Smile take) chorus is mixed with the instrumental start of "Do You Like Worms" and it works PERFECTLY (it's rather exhilarating, indeed). I'll try to "recover" it and post a link.

the 'on and on' bit fits - the chorus doesn't

Even when he was 20 stone, trying to give cocaine to his kids, he still had more class than Noel ever has or will have.

This is obviously complete nonsense.

Its built partly around the bass line for the Smile chorus of Wind Chimes - as such I've wondered if the chorus melody of CWTL was originally the WC chorus melody..?

I've thought about that too. The Smile version of Wind Chimes always gets called 'finished' but something feels...missing. I think Brian could've abandoned having extra lyrics over the chorus by the revised version when he turned it into just an insert before the piano tag, but in the first version where it repeats like 3 times surely there was gonna be something?

 I think so - same as DYLW.  For DYLW there seem to have been extra lead vox that weren't on the mixes we have.

Its built partly around the bass line for the Smile chorus of Wind Chimes - as such I've wondered if the chorus melody of CWTL was originally the WC chorus melody..?

I thought this was a very interesting chat.  I like the fact that the guy admits he's not so fond of some of the sections like 'Barnyard' etc.

Personally 'Barnyard' is one of my favourite sections in Smile - an eerie little masterpiece.

I'm looking forward to part 2.   I wonder if you will discuss the fact that there are a lot of missing lead vocals/melodies..?

My understanding has always been that they had a go at more Surf's Up but didn't get anything useable - I might be mis-remembering.  Although I think Lee makes some very interesting posts I think he is extrapolating quite a bit.

its impossible to prove that something wasn't done (unless there is tangible evidence of a claim i.e. I can prove the Empire State building was not blown up in WW2)

this is universally true but especially true with something as fuzzy as session logs etc

yes and Dennis described the song as about a 'funky cat up in the woods with his chick'

VDP said it came out different to what they initially had

they definitely cut it together as we know it in '66 but I think when written it may have been different - as happened with H&V

I've wondered if TTGA may have used up some discarded bits of CE - I think it and the chorus of CE are walz-time..?

Now, don't forget that Mike Vosse interview, where he describes his impressions of the new Cabinessence vs. what he knew it as in 1966.