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651354 Posts in 26029 Topics by 3713 Members - Latest Member: ficuswhisperer October 19, 2019, 12:00:59 AM
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1  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Prelude to fade with my children vocals on: October 17, 2019, 02:05:26 PM
Sure it fits exactly - to get 'sunnydown snuff' to fit you have to perform all sorts of wacky surgery.

I'm just not hearing it as 'sunnydown snuff'.  Could one of you guys knock it up..?  If you can and it sounds ok I'd like to hear it.


'main verse' 'children' and 'prelude' all start on Db - 'prelude' changes to Eb7 earlier than the main verse but goes round the same chords with a slight variation..?

wjcrerar did you listen to my mp3..?  'my children' fits right over 'prelude'


The lead vocal fits, but so would any lead vocal with the verse melody. You could sing "I been in this town so long that back in the city" or "once at night cotillion squared the fight" or "my children were raised, you know they suddenly rise" or "I been in this town so long, so long to the city" there and it wouldn't make a difference, but CWR as a section consistently had its own variation of the music and slate throughout the sessions. If Brian wanted to identify 'Prelude to Fade' as 'Children Were Raised' he would've.
2  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Prelude to fade with my children vocals on: October 17, 2019, 01:33:15 PM
'main verse' 'children' and 'prelude' all start on Db - 'prelude' changes to Eb7 earlier than the main verse but goes round the same chords with a slight variation..?

wjcrerar did you listen to my mp3..?  'my children' fits right over 'prelude'


It's a substitution for the first half of a verse's Db to Eb stretch, so the melody for any first half of a verse could realistically go there - except Children Were Raised, which consistently has its own musical identity with the Gb to Db riff + ascending/descending bassline over two (or allegedly three) versions. Plus, there's no precedent for those lyrics being used as the final verse of the song, which Prelude to Fade's title clearly designates it as.

"So long to the city" etc. would absolutely fit with some changes to the phrasing. It's just a reharmonized first half of a verse with "by the heroes and" tagged on the end.
3  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: H&V fade and Sunshine part 2 ('barnshine') on: October 17, 2019, 08:25:19 AM
I agree - except the Heroes bit is so completely different and it was after YAMS - he was doing a new piece.  He obv ended up using YAMS but the heroes fade piece is unique.

All 3 sections are quite distinctly different and I think they could be sequenced to make  a great 'pastoral' end to the tune.
4  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Prelude to fade with my children vocals on: October 17, 2019, 08:21:36 AM
So which syllables would you have where 'often wise' goes..?

I just can't hear it myself - the phrasing an emphasis is so different.


Yes - the tempo is fast but I think it works.  Hard to take the single version of it and overlay however - some serious time shifting would be required with the resulting artifacts.
5  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Prelude to fade with my children vocals on: October 17, 2019, 07:05:04 AM
But the shape of the melody fits the 'often wise' line.

Have you tried to sing the 'sunny down snuff' section over it..?

Nice work - although I think the lyrics for this would have been "I've been in this town so long, so long to the city . . . I'm fit with the stuff, to ride in the rough, and sunny down snuff I'm alright with the Heroes and villains" and then go to the Fade.
6  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Prelude to fade with my children vocals on: October 15, 2019, 11:26:41 AM
oh cheers - its a bit more polished now - I'll re-up it when I've done tinkering

That's terrific, Mike...please, please do more of these!
7  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Prelude to fade with my children vocals on: October 15, 2019, 09:53:10 AM
cheers - I've since polished it a bit more

I might try some other 'overdubs' like this if  I can salvage isolated vocals


I like  Cool Guy
8  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Prelude to fade with my children vocals on: October 14, 2019, 12:51:00 PM
Rough attempt

https://www.dropbox.com/s/klaas0g02mhvj34/my%20children%20pitch%20shift.mp3?dl=0
9  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / H&V fade and Sunshine part 2 ('barnshine') on: October 14, 2019, 09:56:57 AM
First came YAMS pt 2.  This starts off as a jig and during the session morphs into the familiar 'barnshine' we know from the Cantina H&V tag.

Then a few months later there's a session for that H&V tag with Carl singing the 'doo-bee-doos' and thats a third different section and not whats on the Cantina mix.

So firstly - I wondered if the YAMS session could be for two DIFFERENT sections i.e. the jig then barnshine.  They are so radically different.

Presumably when they tried the session with Carl they morphed into the regular barnshine..?  I.e. they tried something with Carl and then junked it..?
10  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 14, 2019, 07:47:48 AM
No but that doesn't mean they weren't recorded - it could mean they were lost or abandoned. 

Oh well how do you know that info is wrong - and that there were no vocals..?  Not arguing either way just curious how you know.


Are you hearing any vocals...?
11  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 14, 2019, 07:19:04 AM
Oh well how do you know that info is wrong - and that there were no vocals..?  Not arguing either way just curious how you know.

All Day 'track and vocals recorded at Columbia'... etc - booklet track17 CD 2 notes

I didn't know it was demoed in December..?

Presumably it was a pastoral type section..?

There were no vocals so that's a typo.

The two 'Da Da' fragments were on the same 8-track reel as the DYLW vocals, presumably from the same Dec 21 session.
12  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 14, 2019, 07:04:54 AM
All Day 'track and vocals recorded at Columbia'... etc - booklet track17 CD 2 notes

I didn't know it was demoed in December..?

Presumably it was a pastoral type section..?
13  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 13, 2019, 09:09:53 AM
And 'All day' had a vocal session - and was to have spoken parts in the gaps.

The '66 'Intro' is called as 'part 3' on the take.

What on earth are the '66 intro and All Day supposed to be..?  From what we have I think its impossible to even guess..?  Unless Intro is supposed to be a train..?  Thats what it sounds like to me if anything..?

Presumably 'All Day' was part of the IIGS/BY vibe..?  I wonder if the DaDa melody lines were meant for it but with lyrics..?  Its so sparse I bet it was going to have FX.

Its obvious the early versions were more of a mini 'movie' with FX etc.  Personally I don't like really obvious FX.   I prefer suggestion like the baby crying BG vox on the fast 'my children'.
14  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 12, 2019, 08:43:18 AM
Is there consensus on 'bridge to indians/bichycle rider' being part of the A side early Jan..?

Or do some people think they were for side 2/B-side part 2 or whatever..?

Confusingly 'intro' was recorded in Dec quite early in the H&V process but its in E - the much later chants are in E/A so musically intro would go with those chants.

Of course there's no rules and a C sharp tune can have sections in any key as long as it sounds good.

I guess I'm just wondering if the 45 and 'part 2/side 2' were possibly being developed at the same time.
15  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 10, 2019, 09:33:01 AM
Fair dos chaps.  If Cantina was the single briefly he was soon changing it.  Its interesting but I want to do as good '66 mix as possible.
16  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 10, 2019, 08:33:40 AM
Cantina may have been a trial final sequence but it was rejected almost immediately.  I agree.  Although containing several sections of genius I don't think it hangs together as a hit 45 at all.  Or as a coherent piece.   I think it could do with the unfunny 'humour' removed and a couple of other sections put back in.

Non BB fans I've played it to have uniformly not liked it.

I'm much more interested in what was in the 1966 versions of the song.  Sunnydown snuff appears to have been tried in '66 so:

verses - IIGS - verses (possibly inc my children) - something/possibly sunnydown snuff - barnyard   -   the only real stab here is 'sunnydown snuff' but this seems to be approximately what the song was from oct till mid/late dec..?

Regarding the Cantina mix - I though the session logs show the mix at Columbia..?
17  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 09, 2019, 11:09:58 AM
Sure.   I know this has been hashed out a million times but  I haven't had a go since the box set came out.

 I think the Durrie acetate shows that 'my children' was being tried in December + the witness account of 'sunnydown snuff' also in December.

I feel like I've got more of a true understanding of what they were up to than I have in the past - like a couple more pieces of the jigsaw have appeared Smiley
18  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 09, 2019, 11:02:16 AM
Well my main takeaway from all this is that the BR melody was in the actual 45 much earlier than I thought/remembered.

I think it was right to use it in the single.  I think the single flows well as a song but isn't very well produced.  For some reason which isn't clear to me he just couldn't make his mind up.
19  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 09, 2019, 10:55:34 AM
I get you - but the single chorus track defiinitely started out as side 2 bridge - am I understanding correctly..?

I interpret the recording activity after the Feb 10 mix differently - The Feb 15/16 sessions with prelude to fade and the tack piano theme and then the Feb 20 Part 2 and Part 2 revised sections seem to me all pieces he was recording in consideration for the B side of the single.  From the Tracy Thomas interview : “I’m doing the final mix on the A side tonight, but I can’t decide what to do on the other side.”   so all this recording was trying to decide what to do on the B side.  Now when he rerecorded the fade Feb 28 and the verse backing March 1, it seems he had rejected the cantina mix and was trying to start over again from the ground up.
20  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 09, 2019, 10:34:17 AM
FWIW I think the BR melody parts are much more 'hit single' than IIGS and Cantina.  (Although its fair to  point out we haven't heard fully finished versions of those sections.  I think Cantina was part of a test mix).
21  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 09, 2019, 10:31:14 AM
Was the single's chorus really the bridge at one time..?  For side 2..?  I'm trying to think of another par that would match that description but  I can't - can you..?

If that's what it was thats what it was - I'll chew these things over but will accept the evidence Smiley



Hi BR - in the notes in the box set the chorus is logged as 'part 2' not 'side 2'.

In the single it is indeed part 2.

Could have been both - part 2 of side 2..?


 "the chorus, for example, was tracked with a different master number (57045 vs. 57020) and was marked as "Heroes bridge" and as "Heroes and Villains side 2."  

The master # corresponds to Heroes Part 2 but writing on the tape box, confirmed by Alan, is “Heroes bridge with spooky low strings and percussion” and “Heroes and Villains Side Two."
22  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 09, 2019, 10:24:13 AM
Right so in fact the BR part was in the song proper in Jan - even if only for a short time..?

I think Cantina came after the above tryout..?


Also this seems to have been a sections try out for the A side in Jan:

verse edit experiment/bridge to indians/indians(i.e. BR) - unless anyone thinks 'indians' could have been something else..?

Bridge to indians ends on a C sharp chord.

I suppose it could be argued that verse edit experiment was for the B side..?

I don't think so.  Despite the different master number I think this was tried as a replacement for IIGS for "Part 2" of Heroes, as cantina had previously been considered a part 2 (and the Dec "intro" part 3).
23  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 09, 2019, 04:10:37 AM
Also verses/IIGS/BY seems to have been the guts of the song for quit e along time - those sections were tracked in Oct and still the only bits played to Humble Harv in Nov.

I think its therefore OK to say that was the bulk tune in 1966 albeit with some work ongoing.

I think its right after christmas he starts to seriously re work it..?
24  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 09, 2019, 04:02:21 AM
Also this seems to have been a sections try out for the A side in Jan:

verse edit experiment/bridge to indians/indians(i.e. BR) - unless anyone thinks 'indians' could have been something else..?

Bridge to indians ends on a C sharp chord.

I suppose it could be argued that verse edit experiment was for the B side..?
25  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 09, 2019, 01:40:09 AM
I'm a bit fuzzy on master numbers.

The original verses are 56727.  Then IIGS is 56738.  Then the next bunch inc 'bridge to indians' is 57020.  Cantina is 57020.  Then all those theme variations are 57020.  Then the part 2 piano 45 chorus piano track onwards is 57045.

So what that looks like logically is IIGS was its own song - except we know at this stage it wasn't.  It also suggests that Cantina etc was for side 2/a different cut - except we know it wasn't.

So thats all nice and confusing.

Here's another thing:  bridge to indians and bicycle rider were both recorded early Jan.  Both logged as H&V so seemingly those parts were in the song by then - a good 6 months before the BR melody was recorded for the single.  VDP told me the BR lyrics were done for H&V.  The boys actually used them in the live version in the 70s.
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