So... Just a little question. Does Mike Love being called an asshole bother you as much as Brian Wilson being called an asshole here? If it happens to Brian are you going to interfere and question the poster's motivations? Would you do the same if the subject was Mike Love?

I'll address that directly, even though the "question" being asked already seems to have been answered by the way it was asked.

You're right, me and you know the answer already. But it was somewhat entertaining to do it.

That is complete bullshit, and I'm calling you out on it directly. So you asked for my opinion only to get my reaction that would be entertaining to you? That's provoking rather than wanting to engage a discussion. You've done this before, if that's how you get your kicks then it's truly sad that you come to this board for those reasons.

Try showing some respect, not just for me but for the board and the other members in general, and if you want a conversation, learn how to have one before asking for one.

This was pathetic but I will consider the source and will react in kind.



Is this the kind of forum everyone here wants? Consider the source.

I made a question, which was provoking but in no way in the 'how dare you' area, which can get veeery tiring. There was a chance that you'd disagree with my angle and tell me why, which I'd read and respect. There was another chance that you'd tell me that that's the way things are and this is just a message board, no reason to get all fussed about, at least more than Mike Love himself does. That would be fair game too.

You just danced around what I said and ignored my points altogether. That was entertaining, that's all. Entertainment is very subjective.

Now, your little tantrums I could live without. But I'll try to get some entertainment from them too. I'm a 'half-full glass' kind of guy. 

So... Just a little question. Does Mike Love being called an asshole bother you as much as Brian Wilson being called an asshole here? If it happens to Brian are you going to interfere and question the poster's motivations? Would you do the same if the subject was Mike Love?

I'll address that directly, even though the "question" being asked already seems to have been answered by the way it was asked.

You're right, me and you know the answer already. But it was somewhat entertaining to do it.

[There's a few people here who take any non-criticism of Mike as ill-willed criticism of Brian. They place people who don't think Mike is an all-evil asshole through and through in that "camp" and honestly believe they're all anti-Brian.]

Thing is, that "camp" doesn't really exist. There's a few people here who take any non-criticism of Mike as ill-willed criticism of Brian. They place people who don't think Mike is an all-evil asshole through and through in that "camp" and honestly believe they're all anti-Brian. However, there isn't anybody with that anti-Brian mindset here that I am aware of. The few ones who really ardently defend Mike have never displayed any hate of Brian, just criticised some of Brian's actions or decisions which they feel aren't that great either.

I love the term "Kokomaoists", though. Very witty. Who invented that in the first place?

What I'm seeing is a conflict between wishing there were no "camps" and wishing everyone would just be nice to each other as fellow fans, and getting posts like this which further define and call out whatever "camp" happens to be in the firing line of the moment.

The old saying is you can't have it both ways, so I'd suggest if this issue of different camps among fans here is what troubles some posters, then stop bringing it up and further putting people on the defensive. Or if there are legitimate disagreements and things to point out to debate, then do that case by case as you feel necessary.

To the quotes in bold: May I ask where exactly this has happened on the board? Or who did what is being described?

So the charge is made that posters here are suggesting anyone who does not think Mike is "all-evil" (your words) and does not criticize him enough is "anti-Brian".

If such a charge is made, can you provide specifics and we can address it? Where specifically has this been done?

On the other hand, last week I saw some suggestions that other fans here - however many hundreds there are - were not "fans" of the Beach Boys because they didn't post in a Mike Love best vocal thread, or were something other than fans because they didn't post in other so-called "positive" threads or whatever was the case.

That, I can call out because it's complete nonsense, and I've seen it before and have called it out as nonsense. There are days that go by where I don't post at all because of work and personal scheduling issues, and where I miss some threads (and PM's too) in the process. If one of those is a topic complimentary to a band member, and I happen not to post there, then by the logic I've seen recently (and can cite)...I'm not a real fan?

Again, if something is going to be presented as a point of concern, as was done above, providing some examples would be helpful to move things forward as necessary. If there are no examples, and perhaps it's a perception, then perhaps reconsidering further dividing our crew into "camps" by dividing them by calling out based on perception might be in order too.

Because I can pretty much be 99% almost certain ( ) that this situation where people here are being called out for not criticizing Mike as being "anti-Brian" isn't happening on such a scale to call out, if it's happening at all.

So... Just a little question. Does Mike Love being called an asshole bother you as much as Brian Wilson being called an asshole here? If it happens to Brian are you going to interfere and question the poster's motivations? Would you do the same if the subject was Mike Love?

In a parallel universe Mike never lost his hair and migrated to Norway.

I think we don't have to post everything that passes through our head.

I didn't care about Brian's last 'single/video', if it was by anyone else I'd have stopped listening in the middle of it. Now, DO I REALLY HAVE TO SHOW EVERYBODY HOW I FEEL ABOUT IT, is my opinion so important that I must repeat in every NPP thread how this new track bores me? Every day?

Well, you're certainly off to a good start.

 

Seriously, to me having a forum means anything and (almost) everything is up for discussion. What's worse, criticizing something someone in the band did or criticizing the people criticizing for the act of criticizing? I don't know the answer, but whatever it is I'm sure neither is that far above the other.

I get it, you guys want me to go on and on about how Brian's last track sucks, so that you can mention the "anti-Brian" crowd whenever the Mike bashing is questioned.

I'm not into that, sorry. But have fun regurgitating whatever bothers you so badly. Freedom of speech, man!

I think we don't have to post everything that passes through our head.

I didn't care about Brian's last 'single/video', if it was by anyone else I'd have stopped listening in the middle of it. Now, DO I REALLY HAVE TO SHOW EVERYBODY HOW I FEEL ABOUT IT, is my opinion so important that I must repeat in every NPP thread how this new track bores me? Every day?

Well, you're certainly off to a good start.

I'd rather feel superior to those who go on and on and on about how Mike is an asshole. It makes my day.

I think we don't have to post everything that passes through our head.

I didn't care about Brian's last 'single/video', if it was by anyone else I'd have stopped listening in the middle of it. Now, DO I REALLY HAVE TO SHOW EVERYBODY HOW I FEEL ABOUT IT, is my opinion so important that I must repeat in every NPP thread how this new track bores me? Every day?

No. I'm sure thare are tracks in NPP that I'll love, and other that I'll like. I can wait for the full release and comment positively on those.

Mike's filthy rich. He seems to be having fun with all this, so it's good for everyone. Except for those who hate him.

With all the effort he's putting into this, there is a palpable chance that he'll pick up some interesting questions to answer. Like mine.  

I am an informed fan and all this post C50 business isn't worth getting upset over. You guys argue this stuff through pages and pages of posts and it doesn't mean a damn thing. It isn't changing anyone's minds. They have and always will be remembered for mid-60's music, with footnotes for anything after. All the fighting and such just becomes folklore. Public perception is just that, a perception, not necessarily the full truth. I'm with David Marks on this; it's their business, let them deal with it.

THANK YOU.  The talk about Mike was such a small insignificant part of the interview, yet that is mainly what is being discussed ONCE, AGAIN. 'Oh mean Mr Mike is a doody head wah wah wah'. For f***'s sake, just stop . Please. Here's something...I have a feeling if I ever met Mike, we'd probably not hit it off that well. Very little in common except environmental concerns. Conversely, I think Brian and I have a lot in common (albeit he's a musical genius, and I'm nowhere near his league).  I have disagreed quite a bit with some of Mike's decisions over the years. That's okay. But quit making it so damn personal. Unless you are in the family, or are around them  24/7, we know jack jiminy fuckall about these human beings that we don't know personally  that some of us are saying extremely shitty things about.  Give it a rest. Confession time..there's a band member (not Mike or Brian) that I do not care for either, and rather strongly. I don't go on and on about it, constantly bring up him being a dick to fans, or dismiss his abilities just because I don't like him.  There's a fine line between honest criticism and an unhealthy obsessive hatred of someone you don't know, and the line hasn't been crossed so much as it's had a giant steaming dump taken on it.

THANK YOU #2. But I guess the hatred will only stop when Brian or Mike passes away.

Mama Says...

The answer is simple. For ONE album Mike and Brian pulled a "Lennon & McCartney" or a "Jagger & Richards". Every original song would be a "Wilson & Love" collaboration, even if it wasn't. Or if the lyrics weren't written by someone else like Parks or Asher.

"Mama Says" was written solely by Brian, but it was credited to both. No big deal. Brian didn't mind sharing the credits for this little dittie and Mike didn't really make big bucks from this track alone.

End of story.  

That might well be true, actually.

Nobody has ever been able to appropriately explain the reasoning behind the "by Brian and Mike" credit on the "Gettin' Hungry" single, and this would seem to run tandem to that.

Mike reclaiming his rightful spot as an important, vital part of the songwriting process within the band, at a point when Brian wasn't emotionally vulnerable or feeling defeated in the slightest, and whose emotional state surely played no factor in this happening.

Well I thought they were just having a good time writing songs together for the next R'N'B influenced Beach Boys' album....

But if it's necessary for you - with no evidence in contemporary or more recent interviews - to fantasize about Mike forcing his way and Brian feeling defeated and bending over... Ok. But it's just weird.

Actually, the just plain weird part involves the juxtaposition of Mike being sidelined for two albums (because Brian's vision seemed to have been in conflict with Mike's, unless I'm missing something here), and then immediately thereafter having Mike return not just as Brian's main (and quite nearly sole) collaborator, but for unprecedented incidents such as (probable) overcrediting Mike (Mama Says) as well as going out of the way to state Mike's prominence with the "Brian and Mike" single credit. To me, that credit feels as much a nail in the coffin of the statement of intent I think the "Brian Wilson" Caroline, No single credit was laced with, as a '66 release of the song Surf's Up would have been a nail in the coffin to their cheesy surfin' image. But, ya know, that's just me.

As far as evidence, well, there's circumstantial evidence when Brian spoke on "Beautiful Dreamer" with emotion in his voice, mentioning Mike as part of why SMiLE fizzled... for the guy who seemed to have hurt Brian's feelings in a big way, in late '66/early '67, to be not just "back", but "B-A-C-K" in the collaborator's seat such a big, more prominently-than-ever-before-in-the-history-of-the-band type of way, in a matter of mere months... well, the conclusion/hypothesis that I've drawn seems to have some logic behind it, IMHO. None of us know all the facts, but I don't think it's fair to dismiss these ideas outright as being Flat Earth Society type stuff, Dancing Bear. We all can make educated guesses based on the evidence we've seen, and while I'm more than willing to admit that I may be totally wrong, I think you should on the flipside admit that there *might* be some truth to it also.

That said, I dig Wild Honey. I'm glad it exists, and I want a proper stereo remix to be released. But I do think its main author was defeated and conflicted when it was written, and some weird defeatist amends were being made. And I also think that absent the transparency of the internet, and absent a supportive wife that Melinda is, that a similar situation could have directly followed TWGMTR.

Well, once in the late 90s Brian and Joe Thomas were such great pals that Brian bought another house in Chicago. Then things didn't go so well and Joe was sued by Brian's wife. Now they're best pals again recording together their seconds CD in a row.

Once in '66 Van Dyke Parks was Brian's perfect collaborator, but then things didn't go so well and Van Dyke took his time off to record his own solo album. They hung out a bit in the 70s before Landy, then nothing much happened till they became best pals again circa BWPS. After TLOS things didn't go so well and now they're estranged, with Van Dyke writing sarcastic tweets about their relationship.

Are you sure you want to look at Brian's relationship with friends / collaborators in a logical way? ("Oh well things went sour during Smile then there's no way Brian would want to write again with Mike 9 months after").  

Fair enough, Dancing Bear. But what you're saying is also not much of an argument in outright dispelling my theories... being as Brian willingly (?) musically collaborated with both Murry in '69, and Landy for nearly a decade. Not comparing Mike to those two, but I'm just saying that while yes, Brian's choices/relationships with friends/collaborators will always remain questionable and his own reasons/justifications subject to debate/speculation, it's also essentially an established fact based on the Murry/Landy examples that Brian still will work with people who either have deeply hurt him and/or who have been able to push his buttons in ways which he has a hard time saying "no" to. I think Brian was/is afraid to say "no" directly to Mike's face, and will always be.

Fair enough, it's not impossible. Just saying that between Wild Honey and Friends, by all accounts, Brian was having a good time working with the group. There's enough conflict through 53 years, do we need to find more between the lines?

Does Velvet Underground's Squeeze count? I've never heard it, and I'm not a particular fan of the Velvets, but it does have an infamous reputation.

If it was a Doug Yule solo album, it would be a nice little obscure rock album, with 5 good tracks and 7 other more in the 'meh' park. Because of the credited artist it's become this abomination.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwCwGBHd61s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY_g6FT794o

Mama Says...

The answer is simple. For ONE album Mike and Brian pulled a "Lennon & McCartney" or a "Jagger & Richards". Every original song would be a "Wilson & Love" collaboration, even if it wasn't. Or if the lyrics weren't written by someone else like Parks or Asher.

"Mama Says" was written solely by Brian, but it was credited to both. No big deal. Brian didn't mind sharing the credits for this little dittie and Mike didn't really make big bucks from this track alone.

End of story.  

That might well be true, actually.

Nobody has ever been able to appropriately explain the reasoning behind the "by Brian and Mike" credit on the "Gettin' Hungry" single, and this would seem to run tandem to that.

Mike reclaiming his rightful spot as an important, vital part of the songwriting process within the band, at a point when Brian wasn't emotionally vulnerable or feeling defeated in the slightest, and whose emotional state surely played no factor in this happening.

Well I thought they were just having a good time writing songs together for the next R'N'B influenced Beach Boys' album....

But if it's necessary for you - with no evidence in contemporary or more recent interviews - to fantasize about Mike forcing his way and Brian feeling defeated and bending over... Ok. But it's just weird.

Actually, the just plain weird part involves the juxtaposition of Mike being sidelined for two albums (because Brian's vision seemed to have been in conflict with Mike's, unless I'm missing something here), and then immediately thereafter having Mike return not just as Brian's main (and quite nearly sole) collaborator, but for unprecedented incidents such as (probable) overcrediting Mike (Mama Says) as well as going out of the way to state Mike's prominence with the "Brian and Mike" single credit. To me, that credit feels as much a nail in the coffin of the statement of intent I think the "Brian Wilson" Caroline, No single credit was laced with, as a '66 release of the song Surf's Up would have been a nail in the coffin to their cheesy surfin' image. But, ya know, that's just me.

As far as evidence, well, there's circumstantial evidence when Brian spoke on "Beautiful Dreamer" with emotion in his voice, mentioning Mike as part of why SMiLE fizzled... for the guy who seemed to have hurt Brian's feelings in a big way, in late '66/early '67, to be not just "back", but "B-A-C-K" in the collaborator's seat such a big, more prominently-than-ever-before-in-the-history-of-the-band type of way, in a matter of mere months... well, the conclusion/hypothesis that I've drawn seems to have some logic behind it, IMHO. None of us know all the facts, but I don't think it's fair to dismiss these ideas outright as being Flat Earth Society type stuff, Dancing Bear. We all can make educated guesses based on the evidence we've seen, and while I'm more than willing to admit that I may be totally wrong, I think you should on the flipside admit that there *might* be some truth to it also.

That said, I dig Wild Honey. I'm glad it exists, and I want a proper stereo remix to be released. But I do think its main author was defeated and conflicted when it was written, and some weird defeatist amends were being made. And I also think that absent the transparency of the internet, and absent a supportive wife that Melinda is, that a similar situation could have directly followed TWGMTR.

Well, once in the late 90s Brian and Joe Thomas were such great pals that Brian bought another house in Chicago. Then things didn't go so well and Joe was sued by Brian's wife. Now they're best pals again recording together their seconds CD in a row.

Once in '66 Van Dyke Parks was Brian's perfect collaborator, but then things didn't go so well and Van Dyke took his time off to record his own solo album. They hung out a bit in the 70s before Landy, then nothing much happened till they became best pals again circa BWPS. After TLOS things didn't go so well and now they're estranged, with Van Dyke writing sarcastic tweets about their relationship.

Are you sure you want to look at Brian's relationship with friends / collaborators in a logical way? ("Oh well things went sour during Smile then there's no way Brian would want to write again with Mike 9 months after").   

I recall the Byrds as a whole didn't care for Terry.  the animosity may go WAY back.

yeah but they (or McGuinn and 3 others who had never worked with Melcher before) rehired him in as a producer in 1969 and the sales went way up.

Mama Says...

The answer is simple. For ONE album Mike and Brian pulled a "Lennon & McCartney" or a "Jagger & Richards". Every original song would be a "Wilson & Love" collaboration, even if it wasn't. Or if the lyrics weren't written by someone else like Parks or Asher.

"Mama Says" was written solely by Brian, but it was credited to both. No big deal. Brian didn't mind sharing the credits for this little dittie and Mike didn't really make big bucks from this track alone.

End of story.  

That might well be true, actually.

Nobody has ever been able to appropriately explain the reasoning behind the "by Brian and Mike" credit on the "Gettin' Hungry" single, and this would seem to run tandem to that.

Mike reclaiming his rightful spot as an important, vital part of the songwriting process within the band, at a point when Brian wasn't emotionally vulnerable or feeling defeated in the slightest, and whose emotional state surely played no factor in this happening.

Well I thought they were just having a good time writing songs together for the next R'N'B influenced Beach Boys' album....

But if it's necessary for you - with no evidence in contemporary or more recent interviews - to fantasize about Mike forcing his way and Brian feeling defeated and bending over... Ok. But it's just weird.

I wonder if a Wilson/ Love composition, a good one, would get more backing a support from a record company than a good Brian track.   

In 1967 or 2015?

I think Capitol in 1967 didn't care if the next Beach Boys single was written by Brian and... Peter Noone, as long as it sold. You build a "Jagger & Richards" trademark partnership which the buying public cares about only if you do it from the get go - yeah I know about Nanker / Pheldge - or if you persevere with it, like three or four albums in a row.

Mama Says...

The answer is simple. For ONE album Mike and Brian pulled a "Lennon & McCartney" or a "Jagger & Richards". Every original song would be a "Wilson & Love" collaboration, even if it wasn't. Or if the lyrics weren't written by someone else like Parks or Asher.

"Mama Says" was written solely by Brian, but it was credited to both. No big deal. Brian didn't mind sharing the credits for this little dittie and Mike didn't really make big bucks from this track alone.

End of story. 

Hey, at least Crosby must have talked once or twice to Mike, even if decades ago. It's way better than sitting behind a computer speeling hatred against someone you never met on a daily basis.

David Marks RULES. With his level-headedness, one wonders what that much-needed trait would have brought to the band over the years had he never quit in '63.

Would he be such a great guy today had he stayed? No sarcasm.

"Mike's the Greatest" got it right years ago. God bless him.

Too bad that we have some sorte of Male Ego going on here, but.... Well, it's only ok to go 'male ego' when it's about some specific members of the Beach Boys. If 1% of the crap written about Mike was directed at Brian this thread would have been shut down in page 3.

Why do I think that even if Mike apologized in public for everything atrocious he's ever done to Cousin Brian - like some fans believe that he should - then the haters would say "I don't know, did he really mean it?"...

Brian's new music should be enjoyed and celebrated. Even if you think it's nothing special.

I never cared much about Lay Down Burden. This one isn't bad but doesn't spark either.

Waiting for the rest of the tracks.

I think asking Lorrem questions is totally ok. It's up to each one of us to filter the answers to our liking. No insider carries the gospel or real truth on two stone tablets, no matter how much he's been or currently is Brian's friend. Everyone's biased.

I'm going back to the question I asked earlier which, so far, has been ignoredor at least side-stepped...INSIDERS...Help out here please...the question again was...

"And do sound crew guys get to invite people to come hang out WITH THE BAND after a gig?"


...'cause if they couldn't and didn't...then THIS didn't happen.

I don't know if any of us here would know what the arrangements were back then with this type of thing.  I could see the crew getting a pass or two each to hand out to friends.  But this story sounds as if it were a little bit embellished for effect.  This paragraph:

"I didn’t understand what was going on in their lives at that point in their history. Frankly, I was one of those people who saw them as The Beach Boys, not as Carl, Dennis, Al, Brian, Mike, but as a phenomenon and as the group that expressed what I felt in music. If any one of them felt used, rejected frightened, I don’t think I ever gave that a thought. Later I would find out, through documentaries, that Brian had had a breakdown and was literally in bed, clinically depressed perhaps. That they had a falling out with their father who had been their producer early on. And that Dennis was keeping company with Charles Manson and family."

Makes no sense.  Yeah, Brian had had his problems, but those were well known to the public by 1974.  Yeah, they had had a falling out with their father...in 1965.  Poor Murry was gone by 1974.  And Dennis had kept company with Charlie, but that was back in 1968.  

LostArt, in fairness, there wasn't that much information readily available about the Beach Boys in 1974.  I became a fan in 1976 at age 19, and I could only find one thin (but valuable) volume about them (Ken Barnes', which came out in 1976), and whatever magazine articles that came out around the Brian's Back campaign.   Before Barnes' book there was even less information available, and one couldn't go online and get, for example, the 1971 Rolling Stone article.  (Even if you knew it existed, where would you get it?  At least in Houston, university libraries didn't carry back issues of Rolling Stone).  

Edit: my apologies if you were around back then, and know this very well.  My point is just that what we now take for granted as BB history was not known by everybody.

It wouldn't surprise me that this fan was only casually familiar with the history of the band, and happened to catch Carl on a bad day, even if his account may not be 100% accurate.

As an aside, the Mr. T story raises my esteem for Carl even more!

Ok, not everyone who went to a Beach Boys' concert in 74 knew that the band had three brothers, a cousin and a friend. But you know, if you knew who Brian Wilson was (the leader, composer, arranger etc) you'd certainly know that he didn't tour.

I think this dude happened to go to a get tigether with the band but each time he told the story in the last 4 decades it got more... perfect and rounded. It happens.

I believe ‘Smile’ wasn’t completed because of objections to it by both Mike Love and the record company, which refused to release it, even if it was completed. I agree with that decision. The music, and the lyrics written by VDP were great, but Brian’s contributions were ludicrous. I mean, “…I gotta eat my vege-tables.” Indeed…

How did Van Dyke feel about Brian's ludicrous contributions back in the day?