While I do think, for 1966, it would've been an edgy and subversive move to have had those "Hang On To Your Ego" lyrics instead of the "I Know There's an Answer" lyrics, I think that perhaps the better decision (for having the album sound less dated in 2014) was made when the band went with the "I Know There's an Answer" lyrics. I really like the "I Know There's an Answer" lyrics.

But... I wonder if the "Hang On To Your Ego" lyrics would've done them any short-term good in terms of ridding them of their Surfing Doris Day image. The "Ego" reference seems to me to be more of a nudge-nudge-wink-wink hint towards LSD which would've gotten noticed, as opposed to the, IMO, comparatively less subversive "trip through the day" lyric that made it to the final product.

I like "Hang On To Your Ego" better too. I don't know if keeping those lyrics would have made a difference but would have helped. The 2 things that came later "Good Vibrations" and Smiley Smile are both very trippy to me though, so I think they did release some very psychedelic type stuff slightly later at least.

I remember requesting "Good Vibrations" to the DJ at a formal party at a reception hall once several years ago. As beloved as that song was and is, it is still pretty weird sounding. It felt awkward having it played after all the main dance tunes they were playing (disco songs and whatnot).

I don't know if I consider Smile to be exactly "psychedelic" but what constitutes psychedelic music anyway? There's so many different types of psychedelia.. not everything that is psychedelic is like Piper At The Gates Of Dawn.

If you care about "aging" why are you listening to a 60s band? IMO the historical context of those tracks -- the early 60s -- justifies the lyrics.

I don't even think Pet Sounds has aged well. Its lyrics frankly are teenybopper, and the arrangements sound more old Hollywood or Spector than psychedelic. Associating Pet Sounds with psychedelia is IMO a retroactive assessment. It may have paved the way for more psychedelic and experimental records, but it is really just a more competent Today! The Beatles' Revolver and Sgt. Pepper are far more innovative records than Pet Sounds.

I don't mind any of this, because I don't really listen to "rock" music.  I'm not interested in hearing guitar solos or throaty singing. I just want to hear pretty melodies with some nice lyrics for good measure. 

I know this is the relevant thread for statements like this but.. I personally think this is ridiculous.

First of all, there's nothing innovative about Revolver or Sgt Pepper to me at all. Except maybe a few songs like Tomorrow Never Knows or A Day In The Life or something. Most of the songs are over-embellished pop songs. At least Pet Sounds has a unique sound that I've never really heard on any other album. There are other albums similar to it, but Pet Sounds has its own unique flavor.

Sgt Pepper doesn't even sound all that psychedelic to me either. maybe I listened to a lot of psych records, but to me it sounds like an overproduced pop record more than anything to me. There's so many silly songs that I don't get why it was embraced so much at the time. Smiley Smile blows Sgt Pepper away as far as psychedelic strange music goes.

And teenybopper lyrics? I don't understand the logic to that at all. The lyrics are very thoughtful, and speak of real life feelings and experiences. You don't have to be a teenager to appreciate lyrics like "That's Not Me" or "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times". They might be feelings you mainly get when you're younger, but they're universal messages and they are great overall insights on human emotions and development. It can be appreciated even if you're 40.

Pet Sounds isn't dated to me because like I said, it's a unique sounding album with it's own type of flavor. Yes its cemented in the 60s and has that sort of sound but if you're gonna talk dated, that's not an appropriate word for dated as far as 1966 goes. You want dated, listen to "The Ballad Of Green Berets" or "They're Going To Take Me Away ha Ha" or any other random hit at the time.

I know you said you didn't mind the criticisms you had and still enjoy the music, but I just don't think your statements make any sense. Just my opinion though, we all have different views of things.

My bet is on that Brian quit smoking for a brief period around recording those songs.

Did Brian write the lyrics and melody to "At My Window"? That was always a song I was confused about. I know the backing track was originally a cover of "Raspberries And Strawberries", an idea by Al, but I never found out what Al did and what Brian did to get a credit on this particular song after it was redeveloped and released. It's just such a beautiful track and the lyrics sound like Brian's creation, but it's something that is usually always just attributed as an Al song for some reason.

The early backing track for We're Together Again sounds so totally different you'd barely know it was the same song... (It's great as well!)

I was actually gonna mention this in my first post.. That's a really nice alternate take of that song. So many songs they worked hard on and they did absolutely nothing with. Yet they released stuff they shouldn't have released.

Another one is all those alternate "Do It Again" mixes. I love the one with just Mike's lead vocal and Brian's high bg vocal doing the "bom bom bom" melody.

Also recently heard the single version of "California" which has more Brian "I'm on my way" vocals in it. Can't even listen to the LP version the same way again. No idea why they edited those parts out. More Brian is good Brian.

"Sloop John B" was played at both shows actually. Brian sung both versions and played bass. "Help You Rhonda" was never played at any of the shows, though for some reason was only recorded that way in the studio later. They did do a regular "Help Me Rhonda" at the 2nd show on 8/26 though.

As for the rehearsals to the concerts, I don't think they are circulating as far as I know.

I could be wrong and I don't know 100%, but from what I do know from the Wally Heider post-show version, the Rarities version, and the live versions from both shows, it sounds like on Made In California the version is a true rehearsal performed shortly before one of the real shows from what I can tell just by listening. For one the acoustics doesn't sound at all like it would be done in Heider's studio. Even with reverb added. Another thing is that there doesn't seem to be any crowd in the background that can be discerned. On the actual shows, there were tons of screaming from the audience. I'm sure if it was a true live version, you'd hear some of that.

Also, it is very similar to the version on Rarities, but there are some differences that show that the MIC version is a different performance. Mostly you can tell just by comparing the ending. There are some differences on both versions, for example the Rarities version has a much more sloppy/off the cuff ending, and there's also some percussion.

I can honestly say that if given the chance to do it all again she would jump at the chance to have never had Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys in her and her husband's lives.

Well she should blame her husband, since he is 100% to blame. This line looks kind of insulting, like Brian & his family caused most of the trouble for her and Landy, when Landy was the one with the agenda. Maybe she should have walked away or talked some sense into Landy first? I doubt this quote is true. Maybe she feels like that now but probably not then. I'm sure she had the same agenda as Landy did.

Check out this early live version of "In My Car"...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj5A-597o0E

The verses are very different  (much, much worse here, IMO) from how they wound up sounding on the final version. A lot of work/tinkering with the arrangement (all for the better) must've gone into the final version. Plus, interspersed within this video, I think you can hear some background clips of a studio demo of the song, which also sound way different from the final version.

Very interesting video! I'm glad you posted  that. That was always one of my favorite Brian tracks from the 80's. It does sound way better on the album though for sure. Really sad though seeing Landy in the studio stepping in and distracting Brian and acting like he's a bigshot record producer.

As for Landlocked, I agree.. There's also other slight differences in Take A Load Off Your Feet and When Girls Get Together comparing released versions to booted mixes.

I've realized there's quite a few songs that went through highly different revisions or changes, or has a radically different mix that either is bootlegged or officially released. Here's a few I can think of off the top of my head that are my favorites:

Time To Get Alone - The Hawthorne CA CD stereo Mix is longer, more elaborate construction with a few parts
that aren't in what was released on 20/20 LP. Different vocal parts, Brian's vocal is clearer for instance. Seems like another one of Brian's post-Smile modular recording jobs, which there were quite a few.

Cool Cool Water - Early versions if they count to you (they do to me) of Da Da, Wild Honey session recordings, rehearsal version on the Smile Sessions box from prior to Smiley sessions, 3 part version on Sunflower

Hang On To Your Ego - The first 2 takes (only ones besides the master that are fully released or bootlegged) are completely different arrangements. The woodwinds from the tag are way more predominant on the verses than the LP cut version. Take 2 from the Pet Sounds Sessions box is awesome and have been listening to it a lot.

Til I Die - LP version and the great longer mix on Endless Harmony that has an extended intro and is quite different.

Longer "Meant For You" on MIU box, which no one knew existed in the first place.

With Me Tonight - Had a few takes that sounded nothing like what became on Smiley. There's a fast and a slower version out there, also a version with just a bass track. That's not even counting the other Smile material remade for Smiley!

While Brian often recycled his own ideas over and over again, I find it more interesting when BB members recycle other members' ideas/riffs.


- Dennis borrowing Brian's "Child is Father of the Man" riff in "Little Bird" + "Time"

Didn't Brian actually produce and arrange that Child Is Father Of The Man part into "Little Bird" for the Friends LP but decided to remain uncredited? I read that somewhere, maybe Desper.

Another funny thread idea would be to point out how many times the "Shortenin Bread" riff makes an appearance. I laugh when I listen to "Too Much Sugar" and when it turns into Shortenin Bread for a brief moment towards the end.

As absurd as the idea was, I'm really glad Brian brought his Baldwin organ with the band to Hawaii. One of my favorite aspects of Smiley Smile and it's great to hear Brian play it live. To be honest, I can't imagine how much more spare and awkward the concerts would sound without it. It helps fill out the lack of arrangements a bit.

I've spent a long time trying to find the 2nd concert on Aug 26th 1967 and I finally found it, but unfortunately the sound is slightly worse and also seems to be sped up a bit on my copy. The 2nd concert is actually slightly better in terms of performance than the 1st concert. They don't sound super stoned at least. Is every circulating copy sped up/running fast like that though?

What, if anything, am I overlooking?

Thanks!

Heroes and Villains, bonus track on the live album twofer.

That's my favorite version of H&V they've ever done live.. It's too bad the rest of the concert isn't nearly as good as that though.

Take A Load Off would have fit really well on Sunflower (it was recorded during that time wasn't it?).. It sounds so out of place by the time it was included on Surfs Up.

It is also a shame that they abandoned such great tunes like "Mona Kani", "San Miguel" and "Where Is She".. Excellent tunes that I like more than most of Sunflower honestly.

I will say that I wish Sunflower had more of either the delicate side (At My Window) or the silly, whimsical, catchy and singalong-able type songs (Add Some Music, Good Time etc) that Brian was coming up with. In that case I guess I don't really mind Got To Know The Woman since Dennis tried to do that. However the overblown type songs was a forced attempt at gaining acceptance from the currently circa 1970 very pretentious rock crowd and that's where the album gets a bit iffy with me. They did it more on Surfs Up than Sunflower, but it was emerging with songs like "It's About Time".

It's a shame the BBs had such trouble with record sales or getting a hit in the late 60s-early 70s. They could have just done their own thing and avoided a lot of the contrived attempts at acceptance. Thankfully it didn't get bad until after 1974, but that's another discussion.

Is it just me, or have the band never, and I mean never, looked cooler than they did in this group shot? (Maybe Bruce's hat excepted). They are stylin'.

They do look very very cool in this period.. Carl and Dennis were very cool looking guys especially.. I think he should have shaved more often in the 70s. Has a great look when clean shaven.

Sunflower is one of just a few BBs albums that I will listen to from start to finish without skipping anything.  I realize that it does not contain 10s across the board, but it is all very listenable to me, and I would not change a thing.

Now, Surf's Up is a whole different story--peaks and valleys throughout.  THAT'S a potentially excellent album in dire need of a make over!  First thing I would do is pitch out that putrid opening track and work from there!

Give me "Don't Go Near The Water" over "Tears In The Morning" or "Got To Know The Woman" any day.

No mention of "One For The Boys" on BW 88? That's a perfect example of Wall of Brian's. Late 80s Brian voice and not a Beach Boys track, but still very impressive imo.

Hey, enough with the hatin' on GOT TO KNOW THE WOMAN. As far as I'm concerned, the only truly effed-up thing about this board is the Stepford-like anathema for such a fun, vibrant soul sendup. Some weird "pack animal" animus has taken over you guys. For eff's sake, lighten up already!

The line "Got to know the woman" is repeated at least 20 times in this song...not to mention the amount of "got to got to got to got to"s

The backing track sounds incredible, Dennis's lead is one of his strongest (which is why I'm in full support of a boxset full of vocal only/backing tracks). But these lyrics just drag on and on. I really wish I could like this song, but I can't!

I guess I don't really mind Got To Know The Woman but it just seems so much weaker than any of the other material. The production is really good, it's just a very underwritten song I guess. Then again it's harmless I suppose, I wouldn't care if it was ditched or not.

I really do think Tears In The Morning shouldn't have been on there. Maybe it should have been a single only release or something but another Brian track would have really helped. I think part of why I am not in love with Sunflower compared to other of their classic non-Pet Sounds/Smile albums of the 60s and 70s is the hodgepodge nature of this album similar to 20/20. So many songs from Dennis on here and then they stick a random Bruce song in there. I guess that's my fault though because I just think Bruce should have left off his compositions except 'Deidre', which at least was a collaboration. To have 2 from him at the same time and 3-4 from Dennis is a little much I think, especially considering how much material Brian has been doing at this period that got totally abandoned.

I agree Dennis's songs would have been excellent additions to the album. It's too bad "4th Of July" was never really finished but it still sounds beautiful on the modern mix. I would personally get rid of at least "Disney Girls", as it sounds more like Sunflower's type stuff, and I'd be tempted to nix "SDT" but since it was apparently pretty hip at the time and a semi-hit when it was released, I would just leave it on.

Sounds like Brian is doing all of the strange harmonies/background vocals on "Transcendental Meditation"

As a Brian song, I never loved "Our Sweet Love" either. His songs usually have a magical quality to it (even on Sunflower itself) but that one is a song Brian would have written in his sleep. However I really like the instrumental with Brian bg vocals version or the other vocals only version. It seems like I enjoy the alternate mixes of most of these songs more than the actual thing for some reason.

I really like the album also, but there are a few songs I would definitely get rid of.

The first being "Got to Know the Woman." It's a fun song and enjoyable (and also, to me, very McCartney-esque), but it doesn't quite match up to the quality of the rest of the songs.
The second is "It's About Time." It's just... not good. I think it's really melodramatic and the words Carl sings over the bridge are terrible.
The third being "At My Window." It's just not my favorite. I can see why people would like it, but it's just doesn't really do anything for me.

One song that I think would have been great on Sunflower is "Soulful Old Man Sunshine." I think it fits the mood of the album and it's also just a great tune.
Other outtakes that might have been fit well are "Good Time" and "Where is She?" (if it had been finished).

Agreed on adding all those outtakes and your comment. I'm not a big fan of "It's About Time" either, never really was. However I love "At My Window". It's kinda cheesy but these are the type of quaint little songs I would have loved to hear more of. It is one of those tunes that reminds me of what some modern indie type bands are doing these days. I just feel a lot of what Dennis was doing on this album was very un-Beach Boys sounding (except Forever) and I'm not too keen on it. I didn't fully appreciate Slip On Through either, until I heard that vocal only version on MIC..

I was reading about Sunflower a little (going through some archives on this board) and I realized how I personally always felt that at least 1 or 2 tracks could have been changed a little since I heard it years ago. At first I didn't even like it much except for Brian's songs. As it is, I love the album but it's one that I don't listen to all the way through. I usually come back to a few songs at a time. Anyway if you could change Sunflower a bit and put in some outtakes, what would you change? I wouldn't change it much except for 2 or 3 songs.

I think I would put "Lady" and/or "Sound Of Free" instead of "Got To Know The Woman". To me that is possibly Dennis's weakest song that he's ever done. It's not bad at all, just inferior than anything else he did at the time. "Tears In The Morning" is good, but I think the album could have used another Brian track, like "Good Time" instead. I actually even prefer the backing track to "Tears" a lot more.

Even though "H E L P" wouldn't fit on the album at all, I love it and it's a shame it wasn't released until 23 years later. Might have even been a decent single? It's catchy, kinda humorous and feel good.. There were other songs like that at the time like "Brand New Key" a year or so later.

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