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680597 Posts in 27600 Topics by 4068 Members - Latest Member: Dae Lims March 28, 2024, 08:50:50 AM
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1  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Alone on Christmas Day (1977 Version) on: December 24, 2023, 05:30:50 PM
I always loved this version of the is song, odd it has never come out (better than a lot of things that have).

RE: who’s singing in it- I always hear Carl in the “doo-doo-wah-dah”, but then again those Celebration guys did a good job of sounding like the actual Beach Boys of the era. I can never tell who is singing what on MIU either- I bet some of those vocals that sound like Carl and Al are not.
2  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Columbia Studios Multi Track Question on: December 05, 2023, 04:07:13 AM
I’m not sure what’s know the exist in the vaults currently, but the Columbia 8-track recordings from ‘65-‘66 would typically have a mono backing track on 1 track of the tape, with the other 7 tracks reserved for vocals. I don’t think they used every track in most cases, but this gave flexibility they never had before … but it is not like today’s version of “isolated” vocals - they would still have been vocal tracks cut in groups across the individual tape tracks.
3  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The Beach Boys personnel / multitrack list on: October 13, 2023, 08:38:38 AM
Let me know if any help is needed.
4  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Sail On Sailor box set on: January 03, 2023, 04:48:25 PM
The most insane missed opportunity for 1973-4 would be if they don’t release ENDLESS SUMMER LIVE- something like a live LP of 1973-5 recordings with a similar sequence to the original LP, with cover art showing the actual BBs as they appeared in the era with a cover design that looks like the Endless Summer LP.
5  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: David Leaf to reissue California Myth on: September 19, 2022, 02:39:57 PM
Not sure if this has been mentioned but even the original publication has this sort of “Brian vs Mike/The Beach Boys” angle occurring …  in that the “official” Beach Boys book was released in 1979, less than a year after Leaf’s. While the authorized book was very cool, it was clearly fluff compared to Leaf’s, which history has shown was the more important work.

I would say the origin of “Brian/Wilsons vs. Mike/others” has its roots in the 1971 Rieley era. The 1977 Rolling Stone article was brutal.
6  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Mike's Revealing Interview on: September 19, 2022, 02:30:25 PM
I mean, Mike Love has been saying these things for decades, and I assume the likelihood of him saying, “you know what? I overstated the drugs angle over the years, and I apologize. There were more dynamics at play, like mental illness, music industry pressures, and my own ego sometimes getting the better of me” is pretty slim at this point.

Brian and Carl to my knowledge don’t/didn’t really $hit talk in public interviews. Mike does, Dennis did … Bruce & Al are kind of mixed & moody. That’s their personalities I think.

IMO I think Mike genuinely believes what he says and has a chip on his shoulder. If I were playing armchair psychologist, I might say that it’s probably easier to say “drugs ruined the band” than having to confront his own contributions to the problems, along with why Brian, Dennis, etc. had issues working with him

 But I do think he’s not wrong that drugs played a part in the band’s problems, possibly being a primary driver. And I do believe he genuinely feels that it’s sad the group couldn’t maintain the glory days of 1965 forever.
7  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Esoteric engineering question re Let Him Run Wild for Mark Linett if you stop by on: September 19, 2022, 02:20:49 PM
Just an idea: is it possible the second echo is a group of instruments sent to the chamber/plate via tape delay? This could explain why the echo might appear twice.
8  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Petition to Get Still Cruisin and Summer In Paradise Reissued! on: August 12, 2022, 12:21:02 PM
Please no. Summer in Paradise and Stars & Stripes will only hurt the Beach Boys.

Still Cruisin is harmless but lame.

Count me out!
9  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Sounds of Summer 6LP Announced on: June 20, 2022, 11:55:41 AM
“Old” mono mixes. “Crude” stereo separation. “Overly dense mixes”. “Less appealing”. “Overly dense” is a jab dude. And certainly not a “fact” as you say LOL. Calling relevant musical works “old” is a jab. When people are listening to Surfin Safari or I Get Around this summer, they are part of the moment whether OG mono or AI extractions.

That is trash talking the OG records. Besides, you ignored my point that the apparent intention is to make The Beach Boys’ original recordings more commercial for today’s audiences? As if this is preferable to presenting their historically important  and artistically relevant original recordings (yes, recordings).

It is what it is, but it’s odd to me we are at a point as fans where people are trashing the original productions/recordings, and defending reinventions of them with the argument they are more commercial? What the heck, you know? Bizarre.

Aside from that, I absolutely disagree that mono is not where it’s at. Mono is way hipper than stereo. Mono BB vinyl sells for higher prices at this point. It’s a selling point. Hang out in any record store. Sundazed and Rhino are well aware of this. Analog mixes and analog mastering is also a selling point.

There are plenty of potential ways to go with the back catalog. This is one of them but not the only one.

This isn't an either/or situation. The original mixes are all out there, and they are all still prevalent.

This isn't even an either/or situation anymore as far as what gets released. There was a period of time decades ago when it was a legit complaint that re-packagings were happening *instead* of archival releases and other interesting *new* product. That is no longer the case. The same team putting together great archival releases is also now able to put their efforts into re-issues and compilations, which *are going to happen regardless*. Isn't it the best case scenario to have those archival releases of previously unreleased material, and then also have that same team putting thought and effort into the best way to present a 60th anniversary hits comp that's inevitably going to come out and easily could have just been like the three 90s "Greatest Hits" CDs tossed into one compilation?

Your beef seems to be that the old mixes (yes, they are "old"; meaning they are from many many years ago; they came previously) are being "disrespected", which I think is ridiculous to tell to a group of HARDCORE Beach Boys fans. Most of us own the original mixes many times over, and few of us are saying we only ever pull out latter-day stereo remixes. Not only do we own those original mixes, they have been presented *multiple* times on physical media in relatively recent years. Capitol did a bunch of mono/stereo two-fers in 2012, Audio Fidelity did CD/SACD hybrids of much of the catalog. Most of the post-60s material still *hasn't* even been remixed, so it's mostly original mixes out there to this day exclusively.

If we want to get into the nitty gritty on judging old mixes, I don't think pointing out the downsides to *some* of them is any form of disrespect. To slavishly default to or always defer to the *first* mix of everything is, in my opinion, too narrow and insular. The nature of how some of the stuff was recorded and mixed *absolutely* buries a bunch of elements of some of those tracks. The '96 Pet Sounds stereo remix was a revelation. Tons more could be heard. It was a great *alternate/new* way to hear the album. And frankly, I usually *do* default to the stereo mix on that particular one. I love the mono mixes too. I like listening to those to get the original context for how they sounded when they came out, and I like to hear the sometimes dry relative sound of those mixes. And some are still the go-go. But not all. And liking a remix isn't a denigration of the original, or anybody who worked on it. *Especially* when the originals are by and large still there as well.

This isn't a Star Wars situation where the special effects and model work of the people who originally worked on those films has literally been erased, replaced, and the originals made no longer (officially) available.


Yes, saying “old overly dense mixes” while defending remixes is $hit talking the originals. Not sure how that’s is controversial or debatable.

And this tired argument of “the old mixes are now going away, not you have both!” misses my point, which I don’t care to make again as I’ve already made it above.

So- if someone added a bonus track of “Summer in Paradise” to the end of a Pet Sounds reissue and lots of people loved it, would you say “well if you don’t like hearing ‘Summer in Paradise’, you can just skip it. It’s not like the original track listing is going away!”?
10  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Sounds of Summer 6LP Announced on: June 18, 2022, 08:50:02 PM
Also want to add, I love The Beach Boys in mono. I think Pet Sounds sounds utterly amazing in mono. But I also feel the same way about the stereo. And I also realize that selling comps in mono or trying to promote mono or the same remasters that have been available for 20+ years to a wider new generation just ain’t gonna fly in 2022 and beyond. Especially if the team is trying to make money making releases that will help propel traction for more rarity releases in the future.

Sure it would fly. Earbuds and iPhone speakers like mono mixes just fine if not more.
11  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Sounds of Summer 6LP Announced on: June 18, 2022, 08:38:39 PM
Old mono mixes, crudely separated stereo mixes and overly dense mixes make the music less appealing to the widest possible audience.

That simply isn’t true. Those “old mono mixes” are what created the Beach Boys’ success, and allowed it to endure, for  the bulk of their career. Brian’s mono mixes are so superior … they hit harder, they pop and punch, and they are delicate and compelling.

It’s odd to me that you seem to be trash talking Brian’s OG mixes with the argument that newer mixes are more … commercial?

As I’ve noted a few times here in the past, in the mono era, there was no such thing as “the mix” as a stand-alone thing like we know it today. The track was built along the way, and each element was moving toward the “dubdown”, or the ultimate record.

“Trash talking”, by calling them “old” (which they are), and in this day and age mono isn’t going to be a hit with the widest possible audience here in 2022 (gee big surprise!). Brian specifically mixed the tracks to sound amazing for the AM radio mono speakers of his time.

Just the fact you have to outlandishly claim someone is “trash talking” because they’re simply stating facts just shows how ”strong” your argument is.

“Old” mono mixes. “Crude” stereo separation. “Overly dense mixes”. “Less appealing”. “Overly dense” is a jab dude. And certainly not a “fact” as you say LOL. Calling relevant musical works “old” is a jab. When people are listening to Surfin Safari or I Get Around this summer, they are part of the moment whether OG mono or AI extractions.

That is trash talking the OG records. Besides, you ignored my point that the apparent intention is to make The Beach Boys’ original recordings more commercial for today’s audiences? As if this is preferable to presenting their historically important  and artistically relevant original recordings (yes, recordings).

It is what it is, but it’s odd to me we are at a point as fans where people are trashing the original productions/recordings, and defending reinventions of them with the argument they are more commercial? What the heck, you know? Bizarre.

Aside from that, I absolutely disagree that mono is not where it’s at. Mono is way hipper than stereo. Mono BB vinyl sells for higher prices at this point. It’s a selling point. Hang out in any record store. Sundazed and Rhino are well aware of this. Analog mixes and analog mastering is also a selling point.

There are plenty of potential ways to go with the back catalog. This is one of them but not the only one.
12  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Sounds of Summer 6LP Announced on: June 18, 2022, 06:53:48 PM
Old mono mixes, crudely separated stereo mixes and overly dense mixes make the music less appealing to the widest possible audience.

That simply isn’t true. Those “old mono mixes” are what created the Beach Boys’ success, and allowed it to endure, for  the bulk of their career. Brian’s mono mixes are so superior … they hit harder, they pop and punch, and they are delicate and compelling.

It’s odd to me that you seem to be trash talking Brian’s OG mixes with the argument that newer mixes are more … commercial?

As I’ve noted a few times here in the past, in the mono era, there was no such thing as “the mix” as a stand-alone thing like we know it today. The track was built along the way, and each element was moving toward the “dubdown”, or the ultimate record.
13  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Sounds of Summer 6LP Announced on: June 18, 2022, 05:49:41 PM
I can understand that feeling…but the original mixes are still available! I’m literally on Spotify as we type listening to the All Summer Long album in mono! If the new mix of Marcella was inserted into So Tough, then that’d be out of line. But it’s not! It’s one thing to not like the new mixes… I do for the most part (although I do prefer the original mono ) but the whole thing about Carl not being here to sign off….sorry , IMHO that is faulty logic. By that same logic, we need to remove every copyright extension release. No more performance of classical music, as Bach can’t sign off on it. Get rid of every Beatles reissue after Lennon died. Nobody could ever cover a song again.

Ok, so that sounds a bit extreme, but hopefully my point is clear. As long as it is clearly labeled a remix, there’s no issue. Now passing off a new mix as the original vintage deal, now that’s a different thing entirely

Yeh but this kind of thing is like “ha wow I wish The Beach Boys weren’t on Full House.” Some will say, well just don’t watch it. But the gripe is not about the person who doesn’t like The Beach Boys on Full House. It’s about a greater concern for the way the group is presented.

It’s not about not doing anything that Carl can’t sign off on. To me, I’m curious as to why there was any kind of desire to endlessly remix the tracks like this in the first place, and to include them in place of the original (IMO tasteful, artful, and definitive) versions on a high profile release such as this.
14  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Sounds of Summer 6LP Announced on: June 18, 2022, 05:45:41 PM
OK I am listening on Amazon Prime - German based and this set is not doing much for me, primarily because of someone being lazy and using mono mixes for many tracks, despite labelling them as stereo mixes. Then I Get Around is the faux-stereo mono seperated by a slight delay duophonic crap mix. Then the alleged Fun Fun Fun, Don't Worry Baby, Help Me Rhonda, When I Grow Up, In My My Room, Heroes & Villains, Do It Again, darlin', Good Vibrations, Good to My Baby, You're So Good to Me, Aren't You Glad,  Wendy, Let Him Run Wild, & Vegetables are all plain mono. This is a big slaps in the face to users who pay for the Amazon streaming service and detracts from appreciating the mixes that are the true new mixes. What in the hell is going on here?

Not sure if this will work in your country, but here is the link to the YouTube Music page with the new SoS mixes: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nLcpqmy5v1q-ZZdbYvU5x1gkl8VfLZq9k

I remember back when Apple Music started and I ported ALL of my booted/rarity tracks into my library. Apple replaced them all with with official versions of the tracks. Grateful that I have backups of this stuff. But sometimes these streaming services do the weirdest things. I hope you're able to hear the proper stereo versions soon!

Youtube sound is definitely an improvement on Spotify/Deezer for me. Still some bizarre/sloppy things in this set that I can't understand how they got past the approval process. Why not fade out the hiss on Baby Blue vocal rather than just abruptly cut it? as an example.

Yeah there are some oddities for sure, such as the guitar track on Surfin Safari - one of my favorite earlier tracks - and there is a lot of digital distortion noticeable on that guitar track (though the vocals are mixed gorgeously). And yeah, I did notice abrupt hiss clips in one or two of the tracks. But thankfully these oddities are rare for me, and overall all the remixes sound fantastic to my ears, and given only 24 of 80 tracks are remixed, a couple of those tracks having oddities doesn't really effect my experience.

I think there are also massive differences in the mix depending on the way you listen to it. The difference between Dolby Atmos being on and off is huge (I prefer it being off). I mentioned audio codecs before and I think that is at play here (which is why there are differences in quality/sound between platforms). Also having any EQ on Spotify (and Apple Music) effects how the mix sounds. Also there is a difference in sound when listening to wired/analog vs Bluetooth. There are a lot of variables to consider in the digital age.

On another note, I see people are now complaining about Carl and Dennis' tracks being tinkered with (this is somehow sacrilege). Didn't Chuck Britz help Brian with mixing the early-mid-60s output of The Beach Boys? Is it sacrilege that he isn't here to give his token of approval on the mixes he helped Brian with? People are scraping the bottom of the barrel to trash this project.

Anywho, I'm off for a drive, gonna put the windows down and crank this new set. It's gonna be a good day Smiley

No.

Brian was the producer for most of  the ‘60s material. Carl was the primary producer for many of the ‘70s tracks. Many of the remixes impart significant production changes to the tracks. Chuck Britz was a recording engineer working under Brian’s direction.

I see what you mean in that regard. But I also just don't see why this is an issue. As Billy says, the originals are all there to listen to. People just seem to be nitpicking this stuff to death....if you don't like it simply put on the plethora of original versions that are available.

Because IMO it’s not about *me* or even the people who don’t like it. It’s not about not liking it. It’s about how the Beach Boys artistry is being presented to the masses. And I understand Brian, Mike, and Al are on board and that’s cool. And they are representing Carl & Dennis. And even then, people can disagree with the decisions made by the group. Certainly they have made some curious decisions over the years.

I mean, what if this entire set was presented in duophonic? Would everyone here still say, “hey enjoy this duophonic release, and if you don’t like it there are always the originals!”.

Or what if the entire set were presented with vocals on one channel and the track on the other?

I’m actually refraining from commenting too much on the tracks themselves, out of respect for those who worked in the set. But it’s clear that a lot of people have legit concerns about these versions. And I think dismissing the concerns as ungrateful complaints is disengenuois.
15  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Sounds of Summer 6LP Announced on: June 18, 2022, 10:13:56 AM
Just listened to the set. I like it for easy listening or background music while doing other things. I think for the average listener they will like it. I believe that is who this new edition is aimed at. Most won’t know about old mixes or even care. If this new edition turns more people onto the beach boys catalog so much the better. If this was the goal then i think mark, alan and howie hit it out of the park.
Sometimes fans can over analyze something to death. The set sounds good. If one doesn’t like a mix replace it with one you do. But for the average person this set sounds good. Hope it turns more people on to the beach boys and they start exploring the catalog. That is the ultimate goal anyways.
Thank you mark, alan and howie. I love the new sounds of summer. I appreciate the effort you all put into this set.

Yes, most average listeners will not care or even notice any difference if the mixes are generally true to the originals. Which means the target audience for remixes would be those that are sensitive to or paying attention to such things.

So IMO you can’t say “most people won’t care”- which I agree is true- but at the same time defend the remixes. If it doesn’t matter, then why remix them? Clearly the remixes are intended for those who do care.
16  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Sounds of Summer 6LP Announced on: June 18, 2022, 10:08:08 AM
OK I am listening on Amazon Prime - German based and this set is not doing much for me, primarily because of someone being lazy and using mono mixes for many tracks, despite labelling them as stereo mixes. Then I Get Around is the faux-stereo mono seperated by a slight delay duophonic crap mix. Then the alleged Fun Fun Fun, Don't Worry Baby, Help Me Rhonda, When I Grow Up, In My My Room, Heroes & Villains, Do It Again, darlin', Good Vibrations, Good to My Baby, You're So Good to Me, Aren't You Glad,  Wendy, Let Him Run Wild, & Vegetables are all plain mono. This is a big slaps in the face to users who pay for the Amazon streaming service and detracts from appreciating the mixes that are the true new mixes. What in the hell is going on here?

Not sure if this will work in your country, but here is the link to the YouTube Music page with the new SoS mixes: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nLcpqmy5v1q-ZZdbYvU5x1gkl8VfLZq9k

I remember back when Apple Music started and I ported ALL of my booted/rarity tracks into my library. Apple replaced them all with with official versions of the tracks. Grateful that I have backups of this stuff. But sometimes these streaming services do the weirdest things. I hope you're able to hear the proper stereo versions soon!

Youtube sound is definitely an improvement on Spotify/Deezer for me. Still some bizarre/sloppy things in this set that I can't understand how they got past the approval process. Why not fade out the hiss on Baby Blue vocal rather than just abruptly cut it? as an example.

Yeah there are some oddities for sure, such as the guitar track on Surfin Safari - one of my favorite earlier tracks - and there is a lot of digital distortion noticeable on that guitar track (though the vocals are mixed gorgeously). And yeah, I did notice abrupt hiss clips in one or two of the tracks. But thankfully these oddities are rare for me, and overall all the remixes sound fantastic to my ears, and given only 24 of 80 tracks are remixed, a couple of those tracks having oddities doesn't really effect my experience.

I think there are also massive differences in the mix depending on the way you listen to it. The difference between Dolby Atmos being on and off is huge (I prefer it being off). I mentioned audio codecs before and I think that is at play here (which is why there are differences in quality/sound between platforms). Also having any EQ on Spotify (and Apple Music) effects how the mix sounds. Also there is a difference in sound when listening to wired/analog vs Bluetooth. There are a lot of variables to consider in the digital age.

On another note, I see people are now complaining about Carl and Dennis' tracks being tinkered with (this is somehow sacrilege). Didn't Chuck Britz help Brian with mixing the early-mid-60s output of The Beach Boys? Is it sacrilege that he isn't here to give his token of approval on the mixes he helped Brian with? People are scraping the bottom of the barrel to trash this project.

Anywho, I'm off for a drive, gonna put the windows down and crank this new set. It's gonna be a good day Smiley

No.

Brian was the producer for most of  the ‘60s material. Carl was the primary producer for many of the ‘70s tracks. Many of the remixes impart significant production changes to the tracks. Chuck Britz was a recording engineer working under Brian’s direction.
17  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Dennis' encounter with Charles Manson --> Alcohol addiction? on: June 12, 2022, 09:42:40 AM
Charles Manson being the reason Dennis drank? LOL no, sounds like something made up for that doc. If you want to point to any person, look no further than Dennis’ dad Murry.

I would even suggest than Dennis being open to Manson in the first place was potentially related to issues with Murry.
18  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Anybody went to a Beach Boys (Mike and Bruce) concert recently? Your opinion? on: April 12, 2022, 02:29:34 PM
I last saw The Beach Boys in 1996 (w/ Carl & Al)- then in 2012 (w/ Brian, Al, and David Marks). I would see the current group if Al were present … not often discussed but it’s not out of the question, like this 2011 performance:

https://youtu.be/P7xwvOT865c

… somewhat heartwarming to see if how happy/proud Mike looks when Al starts singing “Sloop John B”.
19  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Carol Kaye is at it again! on: January 25, 2022, 04:25:26 PM
You make a good point, Donny, that the internet tends to highlight, perhaps artificially, the most fraught aspects of any interaction.

Our little corner of music history is a very fertile field of examples of all the different cognitive weirdnesses of memory and the effect of temporal distance from places and events on the brain.

What a sweet memory of hitting up the Applebees with Durrie, that is very sweet.

You put it much more succinctly than I ha … and yes- it blows my mind that it’s been more than 20 years since those days in my own life!
20  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Carol Kaye is at it again! on: January 25, 2022, 03:21:26 PM
I really do cut the people that were there a lot of slack- mainly out of respect for them, and the understanding that no ill will is intended on their part IMO. This comes from having known personally some people who were in the LA scene back then ... taking everything with a grain of salt just comes with the territory. I remember Durrie Parks talking about the "Day in the Life of a Tree" session (where she said she was present- no reason not to believe that), and innocently & casually asking me, "Was that before or after SMILE?"

I also was friends w/ Sky Saxon- we were in my house recording with my various tape machines around- and I asked him about the gear used on the Seeds records. He said, "We always used only the thickest 2" tape ... and all of our records were pressed on thick vinyl only" (presumably, the Seeds records were cut on 1/2" 4-track and maybe 1" 8-track? Could have been a 16-track 2" later in the game maybe) ... it was almost charming to hear this stuff TBH. Because that's how he remembered it! ... *he also looked at the BB poster (from the '68 tour book) on my wall while we were recording and threw in the line "Oh Yahowha sang 'Good Vibrations' ..."!

Personally, I *like* Carol Kaye. I actually emailed her a LONG LONG time ago- for a community college paper I was writing I think about her - must have been 20 years ago. I was so thrilled with how helpful she was in her responses, and yes she was personable.

I really liked Durrie too (very sweet lady- she used to pick me up in her vintage yellow VW beetle and we'd head to Applebee's!) and Sky Saxon was a sweetheart of a man. Those are the things that matter. Not online arguments. I bet Carol Kaye is a swell lady to spent some time with.
21  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Is it fair to call for an artist to quit? on: January 22, 2022, 07:21:22 PM
1. No it isn’t fair.

2. Any artist (you, me, Brian, etc) releasing art to the public should expect unfair and terrible statements to be made about their art. I would say, “this artist should throw in the towel if they’re going to make records like this” would almost be a typical line from a negative record review.
22  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Dennis Wilson 2021 on: October 25, 2021, 10:37:56 PM
Wow, this is an unexpected question to think about. I think because Dennis always seemed to me like the one member of The Beach Boys I might have been friends with in another life in time and space.

So I would say to him: Thank you, we were with you all along.
23  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums on: October 01, 2021, 04:19:12 PM
I don't think the full story of Adult Child has been told. I know there are quotes from Brian that he was doing "swing" music in the '70s and Mike Love didn't like it and said it wasn't of the times ... this suggests that Brian did like the record and wanted it out at one point. And we know Warner Bros. rejected it (rightly or wrongly, from a commercial standpoint- if these people wanted Brian Wilson, then maybe they could have understood with more nuance the fragility of working with Brian Wilson?).

Who decided to get Dick Reynolds and make swing music in 1977? No one but Brian Wilson. Why did he do this? Simply put, likely because that's what he wanted to do at that time. Surely, no one else was pushing for something so peculiar. Not Mike Love or the Beach Boys. Not Warners.  To be frank, to me- it's easy to see when Brian was calling the shots because he's truly an original an innovative creator. This appears as "nutty" or "quirky" or downright weird and uncommercial to some people IMO.

There are also stories that BW didn't think "Still I Dream of It" was any good and didn't want it out at some later point ... but to your point: was this a defense mechanism? Was it retaliation? Brian is a complex character.

To me it's not a stretch to go with Marylin's angle- she was his wife after all. Like, Okay here's a record I made. Eh ... we don't want that, Brian. Okay f*** you, the music is shitty and I don't want it released. Fine.

My whole point in this thread is that there are lots of records that seem as though Brian is a reluctant participant. Then there are records (many unreleased) where he seemed to have been genuinely enthused while making them. It just so happens that the ones he seemed genuinely enthused about are also the ones where they sound the most like a Brian Wilson production.

I completely agree. I guess a thing that I still think is kind of strange (building on what you're saying, not disagreeing), is how it became so one-or-the-other. It's the kind of thing that makes sense in the Beach Boys story because it just happened so often, but that in the context of any other band would seem incredibly bizarre and dysfunctional. With the exception, maybe, of Carl bringing out Love You and perhaps the 88 album, there was never a situation where the more commercial record built on the more creative work. And I do think a big part of the problem, here, was that a number of key people (Mike Love, but not just him, I think) just didn't like the creative stuff and couldn't muster the enthusiasm for it. I mean, Adult Child has a couple spectacular 40s-style swing songs, some clearly half-ass efforts in that direction, two sticking-out-like-sore-thumbs early 70s novelty songs (both of which I love, but that is neither here nor there), Dennis singing a catchy but inane song about Baseball.... If this had been any other band, they would have been like, wow, there are some incredible songs here, Brian, we love this swing direction. Why don't we get three or four tracks that are really perfect with the jazz stuff, and release them alongside some more Beach Boys style songs and some Dennis and Carl tunes. Then you could have had something like the best of Adult Child meets the best of the LA Light album, and honestly, that would probably have been pretty fucking great. But there's not even an attempt in that direction, it's just one or the other, and the song that does get thrown on LA in the end is Shortening Bread, which is just like, what?

Yeh I was thinking something like that too, as in: what band let’s “It’s Over Now” and “Still I Dream of It” sit around while deciding to church up “Hey Little Tomboy”? Now I’m getting into pure speculation but- this is where I think Marilyn’s point makes sense: Hey guys- you didn’t want my record, you don’t get my best songs. Or Brian is more sensitive to releasing the more personal tracks but doesn’t care about “Hey Little Tomboy”. Or could it be the old jealousies? Let’s not let Brian look too good. Or … more simply: We wanna go in a Kona Coast direction, Hey Little Tomboy is nice and catchy and fits but Brian’s weirdo jazzy stuff? Nah. You don’t even really like that song, do you Brian? Nah it’s shitty.

I do want to reiterate: Brian singing on tracks like “I’m Broke” and “Proud Mary” sound like he’s filled with passion and emotion. I can’t point to any of his released solo songs post-‘90s with that kind of vocal.
24  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums on: October 01, 2021, 12:18:45 PM
What’s interesting to me is the tracks that Brian recorded that are most like Pet Sounds after say, 1970- were “Still I Dream of It” and “It’s Over Now”.

So you have everyone kind of clamoring for Brian to do something more like Pet Sounds- but we get MIU and LA Light Album instead of the Adult Child record.

I think a huge part of this must have been Brian's unwillingness to let his best songs be released, or at times even recorded, by the Beach Boys, after he felt they had rejected them in some way, or just because the idea of releasing work that he'd put actual effort into scared him. One clear example is California Feeling. It almost *titled* MIU, before Brian himself insisted that it be pulled altogether. Then it was rerecorded for the LA Light Album in Miami, producing the stunning version on the Made in California boxset, before being left off that album too (an album that would have seriously benefitted from its inclusion). I love Adult Child, it's a late 70s outsider-art cult classic, for sure, but it's not exactly hard to see why the record company rejected it. What's sadder, although also not exactly difficult to understand, is why the Beach Boys in the late 70s couldn't have reproduced a semblance of the collaborative spirit of the early 70s, with Carl helping get Brian's songs over the finish line, and Brian contributing some of his quirky arrangement ideas to the other guys' songs. But communication and collaboration in the band was obviously fundamentally broken by that point, which meant that although the Beach Boys had more than enough incredible material and raw talent between them to record albums capable of standing with their best work... they just didn't, or couldn't, or wouldn't.

Good points, and I know this is not a straightforward topic, nor do we have anything resembling all of the information ...

I don't think the full story of Adult Child has been told. I know there are quotes from Brian that he was doing "swing" music in the '70s and Mike Love didn't like it and said it wasn't of the times ... this suggests that Brian did like the record and wanted it out at one point. And we know Warner Bros. rejected it (rightly or wrongly, from a commercial standpoint- if these people wanted Brian Wilson, then maybe they could have understood with more nuance the fragility of working with Brian Wilson?).

Who decided to get Dick Reynolds and make swing music in 1977? No one but Brian Wilson. Why did he do this? Simply put, likely because that's what he wanted to do at that time. Surely, no one else was pushing for something so peculiar. Not Mike Love or the Beach Boys. Not Warners.  To be frank, to me- it's easy to see when Brian was calling the shots because he's truly an original an innovative creator. This appears as "nutty" or "quirky" or downright weird and uncommercial to some people IMO.

There are also stories that BW didn't think "Still I Dream of It" was any good and didn't want it out at some later point ... but to your point: was this a defense mechanism? Was it retaliation? Brian is a complex character.

To me it's not a stretch to go with Marylin's angle- she was his wife after all. Like, Okay here's a record I made. Eh ... we don't want that, Brian. Okay f*** you, the music is shitty and I don't want it released. Fine.

My whole point in this thread is that there are lots of records that seem as though Brian is a reluctant participant. Then there are records (many unreleased) where he seemed to have been genuinely enthused while making them. It just so happens that the ones he seemed genuinely enthused about are also the ones where they sound the most like a Brian Wilson production.
25  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian’s involvement in solo albums on: September 30, 2021, 10:16:42 PM
What’s interesting to me is the tracks that Brian recorded that are most like Pet Sounds after say, 1970- were “Still I Dream of It” and “It’s Over Now”.

So you have everyone kind of clamoring for Brian to do something more like Pet Sounds- but we get MIU and LA Light Album instead of the Adult Child record.
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