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680601 Posts in 27601 Topics by 4068 Members - Latest Member: Dae Lims March 29, 2024, 03:07:26 PM
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1  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: RIP Melinda Kay Ledbetter Wilson (1946-2024) on: February 04, 2024, 02:51:18 PM
Billy C - You're most welcome. Someone posted on Brian's MB - I think David Leaf helped.
2  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: RIP Melinda Kay Ledbetter Wilson (1946-2024) on: February 04, 2024, 12:39:56 PM
This address was posted for those who wish to send cards to the family.

The Wilson Family c/o
Beachwood Entertainment
2271 Cheremoya Ave
Los Angeles CA  90068
3  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Walk On By/Are You There.... on: September 30, 2023, 07:28:07 AM
...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z12RsJSqH-g

Apparently Brian didn't complete this but someone else did. AI but well worth a listen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RIX1pGkFq8

Love to know what Brian would have done....
4  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Request for Michael Vosse Fusion Article on: August 22, 2022, 09:26:29 AM
Corrected URL:
https://thecarbonfreeze.com/2019/06/11/smile-2-the-men-behind-the-music

Everything from the ? mark on is Facebook tracking you.

Thanks - edited accordingly.
5  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Request for Michael Vosse Fusion Article on: August 22, 2022, 08:12:17 AM
You can access some interesting things here too:  https://thecarbonfreeze.com/2019/06/11/smile-2-the-men-behind-the-music/
6  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021) on: August 14, 2022, 03:14:01 AM
“Mr Clean Living” looking high af and smoking a cigarette.
i don't think Mike has ever denied doing a little reefer back in the day. He drew the line at hard drugs - and more power to him.
I find it odd that we diss the guy with the courage of good sense to stay away from cocaine and heroin and all the other bad stuff, while the worst abusers are thought of as nearly saintly.
At least Carl was strong enough to get off whatever he was on in Australia. I sure wish Dennis had followed his example.


I don't diss Mike for staying away from hard drugs (though cigarettes are bad enough all on their own). Nor are my reasons for admiring Brian down to his substance abuse. I consider Brian far more talented and a more sympathetic person. And I think continually bringing up Brian's use of drugs is insensitive and self-satisfied of Mike. I don't smoke but I wouldn't continually criticise relatives who did - especially not if my career had been at the least significantly aided by their talent.
7  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021) on: August 06, 2022, 02:46:31 PM
Something happened during the break.

They took a week or so off around July 4. The shows up to then had been uneven, from reports, but you could see BW working hard. His 80th birthday show, which I saw, was more than fine. You could see the cracks, but they were papered over fairly well.

That being said, from all reports things worsened after that break. You can usually expect BW to catch fire at some point during a tour — it happened in 2019, there were some good reports last year. But it didn’t happen this time. Went the other way.

It’s not just physical, though. He’s going through some stuff, and it should be clear to anyone. That’s why it feels weird to discuss.

If I had to guess what is the most major factor upsetting him right now, I would bet that he’s obsessing over being so close to the end of his life.

Brian has said in interviews that the idea of growing old and dying scares the crap out of him. He really did not look happy in that video in which the members of Chicago presented him with the birthday cake. And that break might be when he was able to ruminate and it may have really hit him then.


I strongly feel you’re correct; at the very least, it’s definitely a contributing factor. Hell, the pain from his back and decreased mobility  I’m sure is contributing as well . We think of the physical struggles but those have mental consequences as well.

That still doesn't explain why he was relatively OK in 2021 but not now.
8  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021) on: August 06, 2022, 01:10:07 AM
Something happened during the break.

They took a week or so off around July 4. The shows up to then had been uneven, from reports, but you could see BW working hard. His 80th birthday show, which I saw, was more than fine. You could see the cracks, but they were papered over fairly well.

That being said, from all reports things worsened after that break. You can usually expect BW to catch fire at some point during a tour — it happened in 2019, there were some good reports last year. But it didn’t happen this time. Went the other way.

It’s not just physical, though. He’s going through some stuff, and it should be clear to anyone. That’s why it feels weird to discuss.

This is a perceptive comment. Something has happened, we don't know what, but I think it unlikely to just being down to the ageing process, though no doubt that doesn't help. I'm sure that Brian finds the prospect of retirement sad in some ways and also think he will feel obliged to keep going for his fans and his band members. So he's conflicted as well which makes matters worse.

Patsy6 was also perceptive in stating that the comments about Brian using a walker show more about the commenters' prejudices than about whether Brian should be touring. Are they seriously suggesting that people with a disability shouldn't be allowed to continue to do their jobs? Brian is a musician, not an athlete.
9  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021) on: August 05, 2022, 09:55:37 AM
I would like to think we're all, or mostly all, adults here. We have two eyeballs, two ears and a brain. And if you are here you likely care about the music of The Beach Boys and Brian Wilson.

It's not projection or libel to ponder that Brian looks at best disinterested and at worst... I don't know... to be on stage these days. To think that or type it isn't born out of some bizarre "hatred" or "jealousy" for the man.

In fact, it's quite the opposite. To love some one, truly, you have to be honest. Wanting someone to be something they can no longer be is not fair to them or you. It's, frankly, delusional.

Maybe Brian still enjoys being with the guys and going out on all these dates, I don't know. I don't know Brian Wilson. His overall comportment would suggest otherwise, however.

But, what do I know...

What you’re saying is not the problem; it’s the people saying that  there are nefarious reasons behind Brian being “forced” to tour…and worse. I apologize for being vague but some of the things I’ve read on Reddit and especially Facebook would rank down there with the very worst things I’ve ever read on the internet.

This comment on Reddit made quite a lot of sense to me:
'So...the implication is that he isn't retiring, but they seem to be acknowledging that he is currently in no state to perform (as seen on his current tour with Chicago).
For his 2021 tour, Brian sounded better than he had in years. The time off during the pandemic seemed to have rejuvenated him. Then he gets a break before starting his tour with Chicago and yet right from the first show it was clear he was in no state to perform. ...What happened health wise between the end of his 2021 tour and the start of the tour with Chicago? Is it physical health, or mental health? Is he recovering from Covid or something? We may never know.'

This is only my theory, and it's just that... it's likely a lot less nefarious than some might think. I remember David Leaf once saying that Brian had 'turned the other cheek so many times he's got whiplash'.

I wonder if, maybe, Brian knows the shows mean a lot to everyone and he just kind of rolls with it. Not the's being forced to, but that instead of saying "I'm done guys", he's just kind of...rolls with it.

Maybe him ceasing touring right now is Al, Blondie, Carnie, Wendy (whoever) saying "Brian", "Dad", take a break.

You could be right. I suppose that Brian feels a lot of people are dependent on him and doesn't want to disappoint anyone. However, the interesting thing to me is that the comment on Reddit made reference to how good Brian sounded in 2021 (I haven't seen him since 2018 but I've heard similar reports from others). The relative speed of decline seems to suggest that this is health linked which is what the statement has told us, without going into much detail.
10  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021) on: August 05, 2022, 09:31:44 AM
I would like to think we're all, or mostly all, adults here. We have two eyeballs, two ears and a brain. And if you are here you likely care about the music of The Beach Boys and Brian Wilson.

It's not projection or libel to ponder that Brian looks at best disinterested and at worst... I don't know... to be on stage these days. To think that or type it isn't born out of some bizarre "hatred" or "jealousy" for the man.

In fact, it's quite the opposite. To love some one, truly, you have to be honest. Wanting someone to be something they can no longer be is not fair to them or you. It's, frankly, delusional.

Maybe Brian still enjoys being with the guys and going out on all these dates, I don't know. I don't know Brian Wilson. His overall comportment would suggest otherwise, however.

But, what do I know...

What you’re saying is not the problem; it’s the people saying that  there are nefarious reasons behind Brian being “forced” to tour…and worse. I apologize for being vague but some of the things I’ve read on Reddit and especially Facebook would rank down there with the very worst things I’ve ever read on the internet.

This comment on Reddit made quite a lot of sense to me:
'So...the implication is that he isn't retiring, but they seem to be acknowledging that he is currently in no state to perform (as seen on his current tour with Chicago).
For his 2021 tour, Brian sounded better than he had in years. The time off during the pandemic seemed to have rejuvenated him. Then he gets a break before starting his tour with Chicago and yet right from the first show it was clear he was in no state to perform. ...What happened health wise between the end of his 2021 tour and the start of the tour with Chicago? Is it physical health, or mental health? Is he recovering from Covid or something? We may never know.'
11  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021) on: August 05, 2022, 01:01:53 AM
I must admit I have written many times that the touring is Brian's decision, invariably in response to people who have said he should stop. Some of those who state he shouldn't be touring still go to his concerts which makes no sense to me at all.

I agree it is heartbreaking seeing some of the footage of the latest shows but we don't have all the facts.  He may have been ill and suffering effects of that, or perhaps touring is too much for him now. We don't know which of those things is true. More information would be helpful. I know it's not exactly our business but it affects HIS business - his prospective future touring. If people were informed that it is hopefully a short term problem it would give some reassurance and perhaps prevent some of the more unpleasant speculation.
12  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021) on: August 04, 2022, 11:58:13 AM
Just saw this: https://1027wkbh.com/2022/08/01/brian-wilson-scraps-all-upcoming-dates/

'Brian Wilson has scrapped all of his remaining summer and fall dates. Although no official reason was given, a statement cancelling his September 22nd show at Nashville's Ryman Auditorium read: “Due to unforeseen health reasons Brian Wilson will not be performing at the Ryman on September 22.⁠​ BRIAN IS BUMMED TO MISS THIS SHOW BUT LOOKS FORWARD TO SEEING HIS FANS ON THE ROAD AGAIN.”' [my caps]

Please don't crucify me for saying this folks but based on his overall health status and well-being during this tour, his cancelling these remaining shows is probably for the best.  If whatever health issues he's dealing with are treatable and manageable enough (for an 80-year-old Brian Wilson anyway) for him to comfortably get back on the road and be more engaged, than more power to him.  But his current status during those shows was inevitably a big concern for many concertgoers even when you factor in his lifelong mental health issues.   I just want the guy to spend his remaining years comfortably doing what he wants to do.  But his health should come first. 

I completely agree. Whilst it would be great to see Brian again if he feels up to it, his health and welfare are surely the first priority of all of those who love his music.
13  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021) on: August 04, 2022, 04:31:03 AM
Just saw this: https://1027wkbh.com/2022/08/01/brian-wilson-scraps-all-upcoming-dates/

'Brian Wilson has scrapped all of his remaining summer and fall dates. Although no official reason was given, a statement cancelling his September 22nd show at Nashville's Ryman Auditorium read: “Due to unforeseen health reasons Brian Wilson will not be performing at the Ryman on September 22.⁠​ BRIAN IS BUMMED TO MISS THIS SHOW BUT LOOKS FORWARD TO SEEING HIS FANS ON THE ROAD AGAIN.”' [my caps]

That’s the same statement given to the Rock The Lake organizers.

Sorry to repeat. It does seem to suggest that Brian hasn't made a decision to retire yet but of course that depends on the health problems. The link gives a couple of recordings of Brian's comments that are worth a listen.
14  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021) on: August 04, 2022, 04:09:07 AM
Just saw this: https://1027wkbh.com/2022/08/01/brian-wilson-scraps-all-upcoming-dates/

'Brian Wilson has scrapped all of his remaining summer and fall dates. Although no official reason was given, a statement cancelling his September 22nd show at Nashville's Ryman Auditorium read: “Due to unforeseen health reasons Brian Wilson will not be performing at the Ryman on September 22.⁠​ BRIAN IS BUMMED TO MISS THIS SHOW BUT LOOKS FORWARD TO SEEING HIS FANS ON THE ROAD AGAIN.”' [my caps]
15  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021) on: August 03, 2022, 09:19:30 AM
In a way, the Beach Boys were, both collectively and individually, victims of their own success. Their early 60s hits were so popular, as was the image that went with them, that the public were less interested in supporting solo efforts that didn't include that successful formula. Even attempts by the band as a whole to get past that summer song image didn't work as effectively.

I don't doubt that all of them could have produced solo albums. TBH I don't think Mike's song writing ability is particularly good but his distinctive vocals would have perhaps appealed had he chosen the right kind of songs. Carl's and Al's vocals were excellent and Bruce had a solo career before the Beach Boys.

Dennis was, IMO, the band's other great talent. He wasn't driven by his music in the way that Brian was, and didn't have the discipline perhaps. I wonder if the Wilson brothers had stayed together and gone their own way they might have been able to create some interesting new records. It was not to be.
16  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021) on: August 03, 2022, 05:57:03 AM
On the other hand if anyone raises a question about  Brian's wellbeing, some will call them misinformed or conspiracy theorists.

The problem isn't that people raise questions. The issue arrises when people make libelous claims that implicate almost every person in Brian's current orbit right now. Those claims don't logically conform to the reality of Brian's situation.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think that any sane fan would defend improper care of Brian. Jon Stebbin's FAQ book raised a huge red flag for me in that passage about his witnessing Brian being talked down to harshly (or was he being straight up yelled at?) backstage within the last decade (or two? I can't remember when he witnessed that). Didn't Carnie Wilson supposedly call Melinda "Me-Landy"? Didn't Brian lay down on stage in the middle of a concert many years ago?

I don't think we're ignorant of the issues that have come up over the years regarding Brian. Those issues are concerning. However, taken as a whole, for every one concerning issue that pops up Brian has seemingly 1000+ good days. If Brian were being forced to tour against his will (and well-being), how could any of Brian's best friends not know about it? Wouldn't his family be speaking out daily about it?

I brought up Carnie's supposed "Me-Landy" quote. Here's a verified quote from Carnie just 8 years ago regarding Brian: "(He) is doing Ok. He is laying back a little bit, which is about time. I want him to do that. He has been on the road for 15 years, and he has continued to do whatever he wants. I like to make him dinner and hang out... I want him to slow down."

That's his own daughter saying that Brian does whatever he wants...if he were being forced to tour I doubt his daughter would say anything to the contrary about that very issue. In this quote she is worried about his well-being, but not because of some nefarious outside force controlling Brian.

I brought up what Jon Stebbin's witnessed, and I'm not defending that incident at all (or disputing what Jon saw). However, if such abuse were an ongoing thing I think we would have heard about other incidents by now. You know how many people roam backstage and around dressing rooms before these shows? Over the last 25 years (over 800 shows) I think we would've heard something other than what was in Stebbin's book.

I think every fan is currently concerned with Brian's well-being and we're all hoping for the best possible outcome regarding this situation...which is basically, we're all hoping that whatever is decided regarding Brian's life/touring/etc that he is happy and comfortable.

Of course Brian was controlled in the past by certain unethical people and maybe guilt-tripped into certain decisions too. As for Carnie's alleged comment, I think it's possible to read too much into it. Families have disagreements and when there has been a divorce and re-marriage, perhaps sometimes there will be personality clashes. Such is life. We must remember that some people who are claiming that Brian is being controlled have their own agenda. I'm not referring to Carnie of course.
17  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021) on: August 03, 2022, 05:48:58 AM
Imho the Beach Boys were a genius group made of a genius, a near genius (Denny) and four extremely talented people. If we consider their singing prowess, they were six geniuses, particularly Carl.

I'm all for equal opportunity but I don't believe the band members were equally talented. Brian's songwriting and arranging talent were truly exceptional and he had a beautiful voice too. Dennis was also a gifted songwriter and his voice was good at first and even later on he used it so emotively. Carl had a wonderful voice, Al's voice less unusual but remained good. Mike's deep vocals were an important part of the mix and he wrote some good lyrics.  There's no need for jealousy ('I'm a genius too, Brian') - they all made a good living out of the music and whilst Brian may have got more of the acclaim, he also had some burdens to carry, and they were not just of his own making.

I don't like 'ableism' either. I've referred to the treatment of Brian as gaslighting before and I think that's a fair description. Brian did have mental health issues, exacerbated by his drug use no doubt, but some used this to excuse controlling, unethical and inhumane behaviour and to cast doubt on any ideas of Brian's of which they didn't approve.

Brian himself said 'I'm not a genius. I'm just a hardworking guy' and during the break in Smiley Smile's 'Wonderful',  we hear 'Don't think you're God. Just be a cool guy.' The genius label put huge pressure on Brian and sometimes I think his modesty was defensive.

From an Uncut article about bootlegs: ''How does Wilson feel today, Uncut wonders, about people first hearing Smile on bootlegs? “Well, I don’t know if they liked them or not,” he replies uneasily. “I mean, do you think they did?” Oh, absolutely! “Are you sure? Really?” Yes, really – they loved them. “OK, then.” Besides, didn’t the bootlegs help to establish Smile’s ‘specialness’, creating the romantic notion of a long-lost masterpiece that would blow people’s minds if it ever came out? “No!” he guffaws, and pauses. “But I guess it did, though, right?”'
18  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021) on: August 03, 2022, 04:00:18 AM
The comments about BB fandom rather remind me of a certain person on the EH board, one of whose footnotes is 'I'm writing a history of online BB fandom: it's called "Fuckwits, Shitweasels and a Sprinkling of Fools".' I'm assuming it's an autobiography lol! (Credit to my sister who came up with this.)

I'd posted a few times on this site, nearly always getting into various arguments. But I was accused by above person of 'giving Mike grief' because I'd said I don't like his presentation and quoted his 'show in two halves' comment (he meant 1st and 2nd but perhaps a Freudian slip).

There had been some nasty comments about Brian solo fans choosing to ignore various things, with which my sister took issue and commented on how ironic the EH name was. The response to this from His Nibs was something like 'Post somewhere else. There's the door' and when she deleted her account 'Mission accomplished'.  I replied that I was leaving before being banned for life. I'm sure he got the reference.

With so many really nasty people in the world, there really is no need to feel prejudice based on colour, class or creed! Save your ire for those who richly deserve it!

Apologies for the rant.

No need to apologize…I’m sorry you had to go through that. You’re more than welcome here.

My apologies to everyone for earlier. I was referring to something I saw on Facebook and that guy I guess thought I was talking about him. But based on post history I guess it was pot kettle black. It’s been handled.

Thanks Billy for your words. No need for you to apologise either. 'Better out than in' as my Grandma used to say works for venting as well as for something disagreeable one has eaten! And in my case for leaving a certain message board!
19  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021) on: August 03, 2022, 02:01:18 AM
The comments about BB fandom rather remind me of a certain person on the EH board, one of whose footnotes is 'I'm writing a history of online BB fandom: it's called "Fuckwits, Shitweasels and a Sprinkling of Fools".' I'm assuming it's an autobiography lol! (Credit to my sister who came up with this.)

I'd posted a few times on this site, nearly always getting into various arguments. But I was accused by above person of 'giving Mike grief' because I'd said I don't like his presentation and quoted his 'show in two halves' comment (he meant 1st and 2nd but perhaps a Freudian slip).

There had been some nasty comments about Brian solo fans choosing to ignore various things, with which my sister took issue and commented on how ironic the EH name was. The response to this from His Nibs was something like 'Post somewhere else. There's the door' and when she deleted her account 'Mission accomplished'.  I replied that I was leaving before being banned for life. I'm sure he got the reference.

With so many really nasty people in the world, there really is no need to feel prejudice based on colour, class or creed! Save your ire for those who richly deserve it!

Apologies for the rant.
20  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021) on: August 02, 2022, 11:27:39 AM
I just find it all so sad...the abrupt tour cancellation and Brian's seeming health decline. I said it before, but I really hope he'll be okay. And I hope all of us fans band together and send some prayers/positive thoughts his way.

Also, if Brian isn't able to tour anymore, I hope that his band sticks together. Honestly, they should just go back to being the Wondermints or something, and start releasing music, going on small tours. Heck, Brian could produce or write some songs for them to perform. I don't know how fiscally realistic that could be, but they gotta try and keep their amazing talent together for as long as they can.

If they were allowed to use the name The Brian Wilson Band it might help. I think they deserve that.
21  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021) on: August 02, 2022, 09:55:52 AM
It has been increasingly true the past month.  I can see why people have concerns; hell, *I* have my concerns. That right there says a lot. However, my issue is coming from a certain segment of the population claiming elder abuse, and comparing this to Landy when these “people” have no idea what the f*** they are talking about.  Not everyone has a damn ulterior motive!

I’ve debated whether to bring this second part up. I still may edit it out.  But look and listen to this, specifically Brian’s part

https://youtu.be/vYHRYyODZzE

I’m not going to speculate what’s wrong. It’s not my place to discuss that and it makes me uncomfortable. I will say the following…

Brian’s not unaware of where he is. Whatever is going on, I’m sensing  something physical. 2 minute mark, it’s like he’s trying to get the sound out but it’s not happening. He’s trying, but for whatever reason it’s difficult. It’s *not* because he “doesn’t know where he is”, so this whole “he’s being taken advantage of and he’s confused , and…”  None of that bs. Of course he’s going to look “miserable “; it’s not from him being “forced “…. he’s obviously in a tremendous amount of pain, he’s trying to push through because per his own words it helps keep the voices at bay. Except for whatever reason he can’t do it anymore. That would be hard on ANYONE, much less someone who has been through as much as Brian has.

So yeah, this fake concern some people have ( not referring to you JTHR, I know where you’re coming from…I’m addressing certain others) just rubs me the wrong way, because it’s not based out of love of Brian but more out of hatred.


Someone on Facebook posted that 'I often find that those who complain about what Brian's being 'forced' to do are mostly annoyed that he's not doing what they want him to do.' That certainly seems to me to be a perceptive comment.

I found the clip very moving. Maybe Brian has health issues of which we are unaware. In these times, it would hardly be surprising. But if it is finally becoming too much for Brian, that's unsurprising. It's stressful for anyone let alone someone with issues with his back.

Just one more thing. I saw some Beach Boys concerts back in the 70s at which the musical standard wasn't as high in some of Brian's shows with his band. Of course Brian had off days but when he was good, he was brilliant.
22  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021) on: August 01, 2022, 02:26:27 AM
Billy, now "they" get to say that they were right all the time...

They perhaps will say it, but their standpoint is still not backed up by any presentable facts.

Brian is 80 years old, so health issues are just a given. Brian may be done touring for good, or he may just be going through a health slump. Who knows. Some are even berating management for not announcing Brian's complete retirement from touring lol. It's interesting because these fans supposedly care about Brian's well-being, yet they have zero respect for the possibility that Brian does want to tour. These people act as if it's a fact that Brian is a 'Weekend At Bernie's' dead guy who is being controlled by Melinda or Darian or whoever. These fans have no respect for Brian's dignity (and clearly no respect for those around Brian) - they see him as a vegetable which is why they talk as if he is one.

When in reality, Brian is a walking/talking/breathing human who has said on countless occasions that he does like to tour these days (yet these fans don't believe him). Brian is clearly going through some health issues and management is supposed to immediately announce the complete cancellation of any future tours? Come on.

I just hope that he is doing well and that whatever is decided about the touring, Brian's life, etc, that it will make him happy, comfortable, and at peace with life.

The BB Reddit page is truly awful. Avoid at all costs.

They have some great discussion there, and a lot of people there are truly passionate about the music. But it sure is ground zero for the "Brian is being forced against his will" conspiracy theories. Any thread regarding Brian's touring is pure cancer on that site. Also, their take on the new Sounds of Summer was so over-the-top, you'd think someone had burned all The Beach Boys masters in a heaping inferno on a street in Berlin.

I've heard from people who know him (and not just press releases from Brian's management) that he wants to tour but I'm sure that with his health problems there are times when it is difficult for him. There may have been other health problems we don't know about - and hopefully of a temporary nature so things will improve before too long. Fans claiming Brian 'should' retire or that he is being 'forced' into doing something are overstepping the mark IMO. If you honestly believe that Brian shouldn't be touring, don't go to his shows.

The other thing that annoys me is how often do we hear people telling Mike he shouldn't tour? He's even older and whilst he doesn't have the same health problems, the last I heard, his voice wasn't great.
23  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss on: July 28, 2022, 08:23:15 AM
Honestly I'm not sure what to believe regarding all the zen/LSD/koestler stuff. However, I am beyond grateful that Bill has compiled all these quotes together for each/every aspect of Smile for us to ruminate on. I remember ages ago Bill was getting a lot of flack for his theories from a certain sect of the fandom - and honestly I don't get why there is so much over-the-top push-back on this stuff.

I get that we want an accurate historical record, but the lengths which people go to admonish certain ideas/theories gets ridiculous...especially when there are obvious layers of complexity with Smile. There are definitely theories/rumors that are just flat-out untrue, and I think it's important to set the record straight, but there is also a lot of gray area regarding many different aspects of Smile.

Edit: and I want to add that I appreciate every person's contributions to this thread. I think each aspect of this topic should be delved into, and I'm grateful for the knowledge that people bring to this forum.

I believe in a multiplicity of Smiles, and I have no interest in saying what is or is not legitimately Smile. Smile contains multitudes. Brian Wilson Presents Smile is absolutely, authentically, Smile. It sure as *hell* has a stronger claim to being Smile than the *imaginary version of Smile I, a fan, have created in my own mind!* And yet, it's also true that the Smile-of-the-mind which has been laid out in one of the multiple conversations that make up this long and polyphonic thread, is certainly more accurate, historically, to what Brian was aiming for in the fall of 1966 than Brian Wilson Presents Smile. These two facts are not in contradiction. They are just based on different ways of viewing the world. The historian versus the artist, perhaps, although it is certainly more complicated than that!

BJL, I meant to respond to this post a few days ago. Your whole post was excellent, but I did want to clarify one thing regarding my "BWPS is the legitimate Smile" comment: I basically mean that Brian has the final authority on what he considers Smile. He is the artist, Smile is his project, and I think he considers his BWPS to be his completed version of Smile. There are a ton of different Smiles, no doubt (I have many favorite fan mixes that I listen to)...and yes, some are definitely closer to a historically accurate 1966 version of Smile than BWPS. But the final authority on what Smile is, that rests in the creator's hands...Darian said that when Brian was handed the final BWPS CD, Brian held the CD to his chest, trembling, and said "I'm going to hold this dear to my heart." - that kind of love for his project makes it clear that BWPS is Brian's Smile...and thus it is the legitimate product.

Basically I think my hard-headed perspective on this stems from some fans just not believing that BWPS is the finished product (which is sadly something I have read far too often in the fandom)...a perspective that I just don't understand. The way I see it, if Beethoven started a symphony in his 20s, shelved it, then completed it towards the end of his life, 400 years later we wouldn't say "well did he really finish that symphony though?" We wouldn't question it because clearly Beethoven has the final authority on what he completes/finalizes. So why is Brian Wilson any different?

Also BJL, all of the above isn't really in response to your post as I do agree with your post and I don't think we disagree about anything. The above comments are more aimed at those who just don't see BWPS as Smile. Your post just made me want to clarify my position on the topic.

I'm not sure that I believe in all the Zen stuff but maybe Brian did... at that time.

BWPS is Brian's SMiLE, of course.Brian is known for doing various versions of things and maybe HAD SMiLE been ready in 1967 it would have been different. Better? Worse? More suited to its time perhaps. Or maybe, wildly ahead of its time. I think the reason people rearrange SMiLE - well, there are two reasons. Firstly, the very nature of it, the myriad of small modules, invites it to be assembled in a variety of ways and secondly, it became a habit whilst people waited for the release and that second-hand sort of creativity was enjoyable. People had come to regard the music and the lyrics as a puzzle - loads of articles as well as assemblages. What does it all MEAN? And that's OK. I've seen various series on the secrets of particular paintings, and musical works too. All part of life's rich pageant.
24  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss on: July 28, 2022, 06:42:59 AM
I've had some difficulty following this thread, but I gather that there has been some dispute over what "Love to Say Da Da" is, or was, supposed to be.

It seems that Brian is working on the song in some form in late December 1966. Dates of December 22-23 have ( I thought) been out there, and sloopjohnb72 here in this thread has mentioend December 27-28.  I certainly am not one to know whether or not it was just instrumental/piano in these days, or if Brian had already come up with the wah-wah-whoa-ah vocal pattern at this point in December.

In any case, these late December days constitute the time period during which Paul Williams of Crawdaddy magazine visited Brian at his house. Williams recounted time spent in Brian's swimming pool early in the morning of Dec. 24, 1966:

So at the end of the night we went to the pool, watched by the dogs. I kept my glasses on, because standing in that pool we could see the lights of Los Angeles (or the Valley) twinkling below us like a natural wonder. The water was warm.  Brian told me enthusiastically the it was heated to exactly 98.6, body temperature. ‘So if you get down in the water like this’ (he demonstrated) ‘and stand up, it’s like being born, like the feeling of being born.’"

This suggests that to Brian's way of thinking at the time, "water" and baby" and "rebirth" go together - each are components of one whole conceptual piece; it's not either-or.  The fact that a "baby" song could morph into a "water" song would then seem to be natural and understandable . And in Brian Wilson Presents Smile, the concept is fully realized. The idea comes to full fruition in the third movement, which in my opinion is perfect, as (among other things) it makes perfect use of the "Da Da" concept and music. In those passages, BWPS fully actualizes the idea that Brian was talking to Paul Williams about that night in the swimming pool.

Excellent reference.

The lineage is indeed more than plausible, it lines up very well to where Brian's mind was at, at that time. One of the themes in the movie "Seconds", if not the main theme, is that of "rebirth". In Seconds, the movie that freaked Brian out in Fall '66 because he saw his life play out in the plot, it's a secret corporation which provides a rebirth for those who want and can afford it. For Brian, it's said he experienced a "rebirth" during one of his LSD trips earlier. No dirty laundry, it's been mentioned for many years. It led in ways to the conception of his "Teenage Symphony To God". I wish Bill Tobelman could chime in, I really miss his insights and writings.

All of this begs the question: If this information has been published and on the record for how many years, and the quote is one which other fans have read before and are reminded of thanks to the posting above, why was there such a pushback to the notion that "DaDa" was not connected to the "water" concept? The logic of it adds up, the timeline and connection to Brian's mindset at the time adds up, and on a visceral level it just seems to fit.

And it brings out my opinion which I was meaning to post anyway, after Don Malcom's two excellent posts and insights: The full story of Smile cannot be found in, and cannot be told solely on, the basis of AFM contracts, corporate memos and documents, and reels of tape and their boxes. The majority of what happened was not recorded on those formats, and encompasses much more. I hope ideas and opinions that have merit, and are based in fact, are not dismissed as overtly and sometimes as harshly as they were earlier in this discussion.

Here is a link to his webpage on LTSDD: http://www.goodhumorsmile.com/page17.htm

It has some interesting tidbits in there about the possible meanings behind the song.

I've seen this! It's very convincing IMHO.
25  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss on: July 28, 2022, 12:41:12 AM
I've had some difficulty following this thread, but I gather that there has been some dispute over what "Love to Say Da Da" is, or was, supposed to be.

It seems that Brian is working on the song in some form in late December 1966. Dates of December 22-23 have ( I thought) been out there, and sloopjohnb72 here in this thread has mentioend December 27-28.  I certainly am not one to know whether or not it was just instrumental/piano in these days, or if Brian had already come up with the wah-wah-whoa-ah vocal pattern at this point in December.

In any case, these late December days constitute the time period during which Paul Williams of Crawdaddy magazine visited Brian at his house. Williams recounted time spent in Brian's swimming pool early in the morning of Dec. 24, 1966:

So at the end of the night we went to the pool, watched by the dogs. I kept my glasses on, because standing in that pool we could see the lights of Los Angeles (or the Valley) twinkling below us like a natural wonder. The water was warm.  Brian told me enthusiastically the it was heated to exactly 98.6, body temperature. ‘So if you get down in the water like this’ (he demonstrated) ‘and stand up, it’s like being born, like the feeling of being born.’"

This suggests that to Brian's way of thinking at the time, "water" and baby" and "rebirth" go together - each are components of one whole conceptual piece; it's not either-or.  The fact that a "baby" song could morph into a "water" song would then seem to be natural and understandable . And in Brian Wilson Presents Smile, the concept is fully realized. The idea comes to full fruition in the third movement, which in my opinion is perfect, as (among other things) it makes perfect use of the "Da Da" concept and music. In those passages, BWPS fully actualizes the idea that Brian was talking to Paul Williams about that night in the swimming pool.

Excellent reference.

The lineage is indeed more than plausible, it lines up very well to where Brian's mind was at, at that time. One of the themes in the movie "Seconds", if not the main theme, is that of "rebirth". In Seconds, the movie that freaked Brian out in Fall '66 because he saw his life play out in the plot, it's a secret corporation which provides a rebirth for those who want and can afford it. For Brian, it's said he experienced a "rebirth" during one of his LSD trips earlier. No dirty laundry, it's been mentioned for many years. It led in ways to the conception of his "Teenage Symphony To God". I wish Bill Tobelman could chime in, I really miss his insights and writings.

All of this begs the question: If this information has been published and on the record for how many years, and the quote is one which other fans have read before and are reminded of thanks to the posting above, why was there such a pushback to the notion that "DaDa" was not connected to the "water" concept? The logic of it adds up, the timeline and connection to Brian's mindset at the time adds up, and on a visceral level it just seems to fit.

And it brings out my opinion which I was meaning to post anyway, after Don Malcom's two excellent posts and insights: The full story of Smile cannot be found in, and cannot be told solely on, the basis of AFM contracts, corporate memos and documents, and reels of tape and their boxes. The majority of what happened was not recorded on those formats, and encompasses much more. I hope ideas and opinions that have merit, and are based in fact, are not dismissed as overtly and sometimes as harshly as they were earlier in this discussion.



Thank you for the above. I think it is obvious that LTSDD must connect to water - apart from anything else, this very pictorial music contains sounds that obviously seem to be meant to represent dripping, and that idea is taken up with the actual word 'drip' in Cool Cool Water. As for the 'child' theme, it could be that too but that is already covered in Child is Father of the Man (I particularly love the version with the very high key childlike vocal, which they didn't use in BWPS and may have been hard to reproduce live). And it has been suggested that L ove to S ay D ada is a reference to LSD and Brian's third (?) trip, which brings us back to the birth, death, rebirth theme. There is a Hawaiian chant that connects to rebirth as mentioned in the essay Smile, Hawaii: Not Gibberish After All. It's not proof but it's a convincing argument IMO.
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