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677287 Posts in 27331 Topics by 4045 Members - Latest Member: iggy October 01, 2022, 04:01:10 AM
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1  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021) on: August 05, 2022, 05:54:21 AM
I wrote this on Ang's FB Brian Wilson Tour page

when you get old you like to see that your life had meaning and seeing people enjoying your music must do that. Giving it up because you can't physically do it any more is not 'Oh good I can have a rest' but 'Oh God my life is over'. I just hope he can get better and find a quality of life in whatever way he can.

Significantly Paul von Mertens 'liked' it. Could be his personal opinion and nothing to do with how Brian feels, could be self serving believing he's not doing any harm by touring with Brian but I think many people who retire feel this.  I loathed my job and I felt it - giving up your raison d'être must be so much worse.  It used to be that you toured to sell the music but these days it's the other way around.

THIS! I think I've mentioned this before, but my grandfather-in-law had to give up woodworking in the last few months of his life. Woodworking was his passion, his art - he had a shop with so many specialty tools, he loved making things for himself and others. And he was forced to quit due to health reasons. It was heartbreaking to witness.

Which is why for the last 10 years I haven't given a hoot if Brian isn't jumping around on stage singing like he's 20 years old. I know some fans see Brian's detached performances as a sign to hang it up (and they've held this opinion for almost 10 years now). But really for the last 10 years he's been mostly always alert during performances, and he clearly wants to be there (otherwise he just wouldn't be there), and the people I've stood around and had conversations with after the shows are all blown away by how good the show was. Just irritating that these naysaying "fans" have complained and called for Brian to quit all these years, and they haven't the heart to realize that Brian is a complicated elderly dude who is out there trying to put on a show through fighting mental and physical demons...and that perhaps he is trying his hardest to keep the show alive because some part of him needs for that show to go on (both figuratively and literally).

Anyways, I am with everyone else in this thread: whatever is best for Brian's comfort and wellbeing is what should be done for the guy. Honestly he can still go on making great music, putting on a show here and there perhaps. It doesn't have to be the end of music for the guy, but perhaps a less active schedule would make Brian a bit more comfortable.

But that's for Brian and his doctor(s) to decide.

Absolutely right!
2  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021) on: August 05, 2022, 01:03:55 AM
I wrote this on Ang's FB Brian Wilson Tour page

when you get old you like to see that your life had meaning and seeing people enjoying your music must do that. Giving it up because you can't physically do it any more is not 'Oh good I can have a rest' but 'Oh God my life is over'. I just hope he can get better and find a quality of life in whatever way he can.

Significantly Paul von Mertens 'liked' it. Could be his personal opinion and nothing to do with how Brian feels, could be self serving believing he's not doing any harm by touring with Brian but I think many people who retire feel this.  I loathed my job and I felt it - giving up your raison d'être must be so much worse.  It used to be that you toured to sell the music but these days it's the other way around.

3  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021) on: August 03, 2022, 10:06:28 AM
I think Dennis and then Carl had talent but Dennis wasn't hungry for musical success in the way Brian was - he already had it through the group.  Carl probably was hungry but he didn't have as much skill.  Both of them came to music via Brian's interest.  Brian spent an age in his room listening and learning before he started and he carried on trying to learn.  They were just being carried along with his flow and learned some along the way enough to make them want to do their own music but not in the way Brian used chords in interesting and innovative ways (though what do I know about this stuff - it just sounds like that - nice but not blow your socks off).

I really meant Al and Mike.  Al does nice ordinary safe music.  My goose bumps never rise.  Mike couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.  His album was written by someone else and Kokomo by John Philips and others.

I remember someone talking about Jimi Hendrix and saying it wasn't just God given skill that made him good it was practice.  Whenever you saw him he was carrying a guitar and playing it.  Brian spent a lot of time listening to and studying music. 
4  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021) on: August 03, 2022, 06:28:24 AM
I don't think it is just about ableism.  I think there are those, who shall remain nameless, that actually blame Brian for his own mental illness - they frame it that it was his drug taking which caused his illness and therefore his own fault when the truth is that he wanted to experiment for the creative impetus it gave him and later was self medicating. But Brian had problems from his youth due to childhood trauma and the drugs Landy prescribed didn't help either - it wasn't just the non-prescription drugs which caused the problem. The only way to be critical of someone with mental illness, who you deeply envy, is to make them bad.  As Ang said it's gaslighting.  IMHO they also did that with Smile - it wasn't put out because Brian is mad and on drugs - though well enough to produce another album for them and them arguing over the material and Brian losing his collaborator because of it, had nothing to do with it.

If they were all geniuses they would all have been able to produce successful albums. 
5  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021) on: August 03, 2022, 02:16:28 AM
I like and respect you Billy and cannot abide by racism.  No one who has not been subjected to racism knows what it is really like but I have to say that the way we are dealing with it now is just tipping the scale the other way and will end in conflict.  We need to be less divisive, build bridges and take on board that we are all the same and skin colour is unimportant - we are all of mixed origin so made of the same stuff.  So far as I can tell there is no racism involved in the disgusting way some people behave in 'fandom'.  I could claim there was sexism but I won't because those who behave badly just use whatever weapon is available at the time.  Those people are just nasty.  They also cannot actually defend their stance so they just side track the argument.  I'm not sure that what was said here was intended to be racist - it seemed like frustration at the way we are dealing with things these days, making it worse instead of better but if it was intended let's not let them side track the point and just move along.

Suffice to say Brian is not a trained seal and does not need handlers.  The people who support him are there to help him with his health issues and to fend off the idiots he wants to keep away from.  I suspect that the source of this way of thinking is one of those who is being kept away and they don't like it.
6  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Giggens chats with David Leaf on: August 01, 2022, 09:57:49 AM
 LOL
7  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021) on: August 01, 2022, 09:56:58 AM
The rest of the tour in the USA, Mexico and Canada has been cancelled.

And the fans who had tickets to the thrice-postponed Europe shows are being given refunds.

That happened a week or 2 ago.  I don't think it's related to this.

Maybe, maybe not.

It might be the same reason but Brian Wilson tickets were on sale for the other dates in the US, Canada and Mexico after the refunds for the UK were issued so it looked as if they still planned to go ahead.
8  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021) on: August 01, 2022, 08:01:28 AM
The rest of the tour in the USA, Mexico and Canada has been cancelled.

And the fans who had tickets to the thrice-postponed Europe shows are being given refunds.

That happened a week or 2 ago.  I don't think it's related to this.
9  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021) on: August 01, 2022, 05:42:15 AM
The rest of the tour in the USA, Mexico and Canada has been cancelled.
10  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Giggens chats with David Leaf on: July 31, 2022, 02:01:19 AM
Thanks for the link! It's a really nice interview with some really wise advice from David. I love Giggens, been subscribed to his channel quite a while.
Am I the only one who thinks David is actually a Star Trek Vulcan? Smiley

David is very human and there is nothing Vulcan about him.  He is a lovely, kind man  Smiley
11  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss on: July 31, 2022, 01:57:33 AM
I’m not sure where the assertion that the water chant was to be used as the fade of the Wild Honey Cool Cool Water comes from.  Is that on a tape box or on a session slate?

The chant where they all sing "water, water" over a drone is not a recording that was made for a song called Love to Say Da Da. As we said earlier, it is labeled as "Cool Cool Water - Fade" on the tape box, and was recorded in Brian's home studio using his Baldwin organ during either the Smiley Smile era or the Wild Honey era. It is a section of Cool Cool Water that was recorded under that name.

Smiley

Brian merged CCW with LTSDD, I believe in June 67 and worked on it later in October 67.  I don't really understand why you are all so blinkered about Brian's creative process.  LTSDD came from All Day which came from H&V.  Mama Says came from Vegetables which came from Vega-Tables.  The WW Symphony came from Fire.  The titles of the themes are just working titles which change and the themes are movable or it is possible to overlay them.  Being fixed about what they are may be relevant if you are talking about the finished piece, in which case LTSDD doesn't exist but In Blue Hawaii does.  It's possible Brian may have intended to use LTSDD on its own and then merge it with CCW given his ideas about birth and water.  It didn't happen, it wasn't finished, he may not remember now and the only version of Smile we have is BWPS.  LTSDD was a theme which only had a temporary existence before it became something else.

Ang and I were going to post something else on Vega-tables, given the interest in Smile, but as it's speculative ...
12  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss on: July 28, 2022, 02:53:04 PM
The question on the push back against Da Da being used within water is one I'd like to understand the answer to.  

At risk of beating a dead horse, I’m going to take the bait here and restate what I think has been said in this thread so far about Love to Say Da Da. Frankly, I continue to find this conversation *incredibly* compelling.

In this thread, we learned two dramatic new (to me, anyway!) *facts* about Love to Say Da Da. We learned these fact from tape boxes and the tapes inside of them. No, tape boxes are not the be all and end all of historical information, but, at the same time, they can be a very useful source of *certain kinds* of facts.

Those two facts are, first, that the first version of Love to Say Da Da, recorded in December, was edited onto a tape with the verse of Do You Like Worms, shortly after Brian Wilson had cut the chorus of Do You Like Worms out of the song to use in Heroes and Villains. There ends the fact itself. However, this fact *strongly* suggests that Love to Say Da Da was originally conceived as a discrete song of its own, not as the water section of the Elements.

Now, this fact has led us, collectively, in this thread, to some very interesting new ideas about this song. First, that Love to Say Da Da was probably not conceived as the water section of the elements (and no, we cannot know for sure!), does *not* mean that the song is not associated with water as a theme, but given that I, and many other people, had long assumed that Love to Say Da Da was almost *certainly* explicitly the water section of the elements, it is very, very interesting information.

Secondly, the quotes and ideas that a variety of members have assembled on this board strongly suggest three sets of associations for Love to Say Da Da in December: first, with babies, the “cycle of life” idea, second with water, and third with *Hawaii!* This is a place where the stuff Liz and Angela are saying is actually I think even *more* interesting than they’ve realized. Because, yes, Marilyn’s quote definitely implies a strong connection to babies, and the Hawaiian chant sounds like baby talk. *But* Do You Like Worms is, of course, strongly associated with Hawaii, and if Love to Say Da Da was originally connected to Do You Like Worms, than the Hawaii connection—and the water connection—are incredibly compelling!

The second fact, which, again, was very, very surprising to me, was that the “Water” chant which has been edited onto the beginning of Love to Say Da Da since at least the 90s, was actually not a Smile recording at all. It was recorded in Brian’s home studio to be the *fade* to Cool Cool Water either during the Smiley Smile or Wild Honey sessions. This is a *mind-blowing* discovery to me. Again, this doesn’t mean that there is no association at all between Love to Say Da Da and the idea of water. But it just changes the relationship of those last Smile sessions to the themes and ideas Brian was working with in 1967. It opens up a lot of room for conversation, speculation, theorizing, and wondering.

I agree with guitarfool and others that there are some moments in this thread where the individuals pointing out these new facts were a bit overbearing. But at the same time, these two new facts, learned from tape boxes, have opened up a fascinating conversation. And when that quote about birth and the swimming pool being at body temperature was brought into the thread, explicitly connecting the idea of birth and babies with the idea of water, in an authentic quote from 1966 just days away from the Love to Say Da Da sessions - I mean, that’s the kind of stuff I live for! That is incredible! New information, new facts, lead to new ways of looking at the evidence, new theories, and new ideas. That’s what I see happening in this thread and I love it!!!

No, we did realise it. 

As Ang said she thinks it is a fractal thing where each piece contains the whole and I mention using and layering the different themes in different places - as a classical composer would do - Wager used theme for each person in the Ring, Motzart had 5 themes in the Jupiter etc.  So it seems likely that they would appear in more than one place, perhaps as  vocal in one place or a back ground in others. 

BWPS is Smile though it was magnificent on stage much more so than on the album or the DVD where instead of showing one night they lost atmosphere by flitting about.  And it does have total credibility but I also can't help but wonder what it would have been like had Brian completed it at the hight of his powers and while his voice was still beautiful. 
13  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss on: July 28, 2022, 02:34:19 PM
Yes
14  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss on: July 28, 2022, 10:02:21 AM
And speaking of zonked out on drugs - listen to them all giggling senselessly, high as kites on Little Pad - a track from Smiley Smile which they released...pot/kettle/black.  It was just gaslighting blaming him for the none release in that way.
15  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss on: July 28, 2022, 01:02:46 AM
The question on the push back against Da Da being used within water is one I'd like to understand the answer to.  

As I said earlier documentation has it's limitations, you can only extract from it what was put into it and it is vulnerable in lots of ways including error.  To understand someone's thought we have to rely on the things they have said and in the case of a composer, the music they have written and the clues are there.  I also understand that when you feel you are contributing to a history that you must be careful about being correct but when it is an art history speculation on what it may be trying to convey, meaning, concept and interpretation are standard and sometimes vital to understanding of it when some aspects may be lost in the future due to loss of information over time and our changing way of life.  (For example Leonardo's Lady with Ermine - we know she is carrying the ermine because it was the emblem of her lover - common knowledge at the time, but no longer.) And I really do think and hope that Smile will survive a long way into the future.

Thanks again JakeH.
16  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss on: July 27, 2022, 11:20:44 AM
I think that one of the reasons the "Elements" track was abandoned is that the whole "elements" idea grew to the point it could no more be represented by a single track. And, so, in BWPS, it became the whole Third Movement.

Was it abandoned?  Fire exists.  According to Frank Holmes Vega-tables is Earth.  I always understood that Wind chimes was air.  CCW and LTSDD may have been water.  Since it seems that the album was never completed to Brian's satisfaction it may only be as abandoned as the rest of the album.
17  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss on: July 27, 2022, 09:44:50 AM
I've had some difficulty following this thread, but I gather that there has been some dispute over what "Love to Say Da Da" is, or was, supposed to be.

It seems that Brian is working on the song in some form in late December 1966. Dates of December 22-23 have ( I thought) been out there, and sloopjohnb72 here in this thread has mentioend December 27-28.  I certainly am not one to know whether or not it was just instrumental/piano in these days, or if Brian had already come up with the wah-wah-whoa-ah vocal pattern at this point in December.

In any case, these late December days constitute the time period during which Paul Williams of Crawdaddy magazine visited Brian at his house. Williams recounted time spent in Brian's swimming pool early in the morning of Dec. 24, 1966:

So at the end of the night we went to the pool, watched by the dogs. I kept my glasses on, because standing in that pool we could see the lights of Los Angeles (or the Valley) twinkling below us like a natural wonder. The water was warm.  Brian told me enthusiastically the it was heated to exactly 98.6, body temperature. ‘So if you get down in the water like this’ (he demonstrated) ‘and stand up, it’s like being born, like the feeling of being born.’"

This suggests that to Brian's way of thinking at the time, "water" and baby" and "rebirth" go together - each are components of one whole conceptual piece; it's not either-or.  The fact that a "baby" song could morph into a "water" song would then seem to be natural and understandable . And in Brian Wilson Presents Smile, the concept is fully realized. The idea comes to full fruition in the third movement, which in my opinion is perfect, as (among other things) it makes perfect use of the "Da Da" concept and music. In those passages, BWPS fully actualizes the idea that Brian was talking to Paul Williams about that night in the swimming pool.

Wow - wonderful!  Thank you!  My thoughts completely, though I hadn't read the Crawdaddy piece in years - I have upstairs, I must go and dig it out!
18  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss on: July 27, 2022, 02:42:58 AM
I don't think there's much mystery behind the use of Smile tracks on 20/20. And although Brian consented, he was reluctant about their inclusion and hands-off with it.

Not speculative, Dennis went on record saying that they had to go back and find things Brian had left behind because he'd stopped actively participating. The sessions for 20/20 began with a Brian-led run of sessions for almost an a full album of songs in the summer, but most of those weren't completed, and activity drifted for months between touring until the group were facing an imminent delivery deadline. In September a lengthy list of potential songs for the album was drawn up (probably by Carl and Dennis) with notes on their status - some recorded that needed work, some originals that hadn't yet been taken into the studio, some ideas for covers, and some older tracks from the vault - with almost all of Brian's tracks from the May-July '68 sessions given a look, along with Iron Horse, Surf's Up, and Cool Water.

It was probably easier, and more comfortable at this point, for the rest of the band to record newer material rather than finish off Brian's recent work on his behalf when he didn't want to go back to it, which is where I Can Hear Music, Bluebirds and most of the Dennis songs enter the picture. But the Smile tracks were a looming exception that they knew the value of and had wanted to finish, with Brian alluding to some group argument that year over his refusal to use the material while he was still taking a more active leadership role. Prayer was already effectively done and only sweetened while Cabin Essence was close enough that Carl could add the finishing touches without stepping on Brian's toes. Considering they were in the last week of a tight deadline and looking for some strong Brian contributions that could be completed without too much work, those were obvious candidates.

Other parts of Smile were still in the air in '68. David Anderle got wind that Child is Father of the Man would be on Brian's next album, which ended up happening via Little Bird. My Only Sunshine and the original version of Wonderful were reviewed with Stack-O-Tracks material in January. Workshop, Our Prayer and Cabin Essence were used on 20/20, while the original Wind Chimes was also given a safety copy and Surf's Up was evidently still hanging in the background.

Thanks that answers some of the questions but unless anyone else has anything else it still looks like original Smile as a complete project gasped its last breath October 67.

(Mike must have felt some chagrin at them having to release the much hated lyrics!  That must have hurt a bit)
19  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss on: July 27, 2022, 01:50:17 AM
Incidentally in relation to Vega-tables and the Elements - Frank Holmes included his illustration for it in The Elements.

Whilst looking for confirmation of  Vega-tables/Elements I found this on another board.  Whilst not wishing to be contentious it does show the movement of LTSDD from life cycle to water.  Though my preference is still to believe it is both.  It also says Brian moved into Belligio Road in March but the source could be Brian's own statement.  All I can find is that the studio was finished in June which must have taken some time.  If the Minion of Satan is now posting here I both apologise for pinching your post without permission and thank you for the information.

----------------------

"I Love To Say Dada"
A very curious SMiLE track with a long history and several transformations, it was also the final piece recorded for SMiLE before the album was abandoned. Originally conceived as a song about a baby in March 1967, Wilson continued to work on the song and it evolved into the single "Cool Cool Water" from 1970's Sunflower. Although not a hit, the song became cherished by Beach Boys fans as a highlight of their 1970s work. It was eventually received new lyrics in 2003 and resulted as "In Blue Hawaii" on Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE.

Early Versions - All Day
The first recorded versions of "Dada" were a series of untitled piano experiments recorded December 22nd, 1966, the same session that Brian tracked rough vocals to "Heroes and Villains". The first takes featured Brian playing the piano with taped strings, with a second attempt on a Fender Rhodes with overdubbed prepared piano. No master number was assigned to these, so it's unknown the purpose or for what song these recordings were meant for.

Next, an embryonic version of the song emerged during the "Heroes and Villains" sessions as a segment called All Day, recorded January 27th, 1967. Nothing was done with this, and it was obvious Brian was struggling to fit the various segments and modulations together cohesively.

May Versions - I Love To Say Dada
By the time Brian had moved into his new mansion on Bellagio Road in March, Brian must have cemented the All Day musical ideas into "Love to Say Dada", a song apparently about a baby. Brian begun tracking the song formally on May 16th with Part 1, a rollicking piano-driven intro with a marching percussion. The next day, Brian recorded Part 2, the main modulating verse section, this arrangement featuring a grand piano with plucked electric guitars and a clarinet. Mike Love apparently overdubbed a simple "wow wow who wow" vocal onto this Part 2, possibly at this session.

Unsatisfied with the Part 2's arrangement, Brian went back to the studio the following day on the 18th and retracked it, this time featuring a prepared piano, piccolos and whistles. This version was called Second Day, as it was called on the session tapes, which would probably denotes that it was the second day Part 2 was recorded. This whimsical Second Day version was never heard, as well as the rest of "I Love to Say Dada"'s sections, as it was the final recording before SMiLE was shelved. Interestingly enough, Brian never gave up on this musical idea...

Smiley Smile/Wild Honey Versions - Cool Cool Water
By the time Brian had recycled SMiLE into Smiley Smile, he had also apparently recycled "I Love To Say Dada" into "Cool Cool Water", as the first incarnation of it was recorded as two versions on June 6th, 1967, curiously at Western Studios instead of Brian's home studio. The song was left off of Smiley Smile but attempted again later that year during the Wild Honey sessions. Recording a much more elaborate version on October 26th and 29th, along with a "Cool Cool Water Chant" over an organ drone", the song again did not make the cut onto Wild Honey.

Warner Bros exec Lenny Waronker heard the unreleased Wild Honey outtake of "Cool Cool Water" and asked The Beach Boys to finish the song off as a single for their album Sunflower. Using the recordings from October 1967 as well as new sections recorded July 1970, the song was finally completed three years later, concluding that album, although it wasn't a hit as anticipated.

Modern Versions - In Blue Hawaii
The original SMiLE recordings of "Dada" were finally heard in 1993 on the Good Vibrations box set, mixed and compiled by Mark Linett. The track was eventually re-written into "In Blue Hawaii" on Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE in 2003, featuring new lyrics by Van Dyke Parks. Finally, as it was presented on The Smile Sessions in 2011, Mark Linett used the original "I Love to Say Dada" backing track with flown-in vocal overdubs from the Wild Honey outtake version of "Cool Cool Water".
20  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss on: July 27, 2022, 01:25:35 AM

Do you not think that the Redwood incident may be the actual moment that Brian knew he was not going to be able to bring out Smile with the band, with someone else or on his own?

The review for Rolling Stone didn't even mention Smile only Smiley Smile. [“Cabinessence,” the last cut on the second side, is one of the finest things Brian has ever done, a product of the Smiley Smile collaboration with Parks, whose extraordinary gift it is to make a cliche grow into a world: “Lost and found you still remain there/I’ll find a meadow filled with reindeer [ Cheesy] —/I’ll build you a home on the range.” The totally orchestrated cacophony was an innovation in rock when they used it in Smiley Smile, and is still done here better than anywhere else. Piano imitates ukelele, and the solo vocal is gentle, but brilliant.]

So clearly they didn't do much in the way of promotion of 20/20 or else didn't want them to know about Cabinessence being on Smile.  I can remember Brian emphasising with some force  in an interview, but can't remember where, that Cabinessence was from Smile.  Clearly it was significant to him.  I think a lot of the album was over shadowed by Manson.

The Tate-LaBianca murders happened in August of '69; 20/20 was released in February. So no shadow of Manson, except as shadow writer on the one track, which wasn't common knowledge when the LP was released. My guess is that the lack of promotion came from the continuing deterioration of the relationship between the band and Capitol.

But none of that gets us anywhere near the question of why the band felt they needed to put two cuts from SMiLE on the record. Let's also recall that "Cabinessence" was one of the tracks where VDP's lyrics had sent Mike into an "acid alliteration" tizzy.

Engemann memo was in late July '67; Redwood incident was mid-October. Outside production jobs and remaining SMiLE tracks don't naturally fall in the same category, so Brian may not have made that connection. And we don't know how committed Brian really was to actually creating an "10-track SMiLE LP." At any rate, it never appears, and WILD HONEY is released on Capitol, not Brother, that December.

But Brian works his a** off on WILD HONEY and FRIENDS, though with the latter LP he finds ways to indulge in some unorthodox tracks that were vulnerable to being pointed to as a big part of the reason that FRIENDS tanked commercially. Then in November '68, the two SMiLE tracks are sweetened/completed. One speculative explanation was that the band didn't have enough tracks to fill out the LP, but we know now that there were a lot of other tracks in vaults at the time that were passed over to specifically put those two songs on 20/20.

Sorry, I said that it was overshadowed by Manson because when I went back to look at the reviews it was all over them and I hadn’t processed the timeline but obviously they must have been written later and unfortunately my huge collection of articles only began in earnest in 1970 and I only have a few articles from 69.  Yes, you are right it is probably the relationship with the press.

I can’t think of any other reason why they would use it specifically unless Brian was behind the release and was being passive aggressive, wanted it to receive huge critical acclaim which would be satisfying especially after Mike’s criticism.

Smiley came out in September - too early for another album to be released yet.  On the Smile Sessions it shows that the last work Brian did on Smile was in October 67.  Then there was the Redwood incident in October - I’m not sure of the exact date.  It may be a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc but the dates make it look reasonable.
21  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss on: July 26, 2022, 11:39:44 AM
edit: I'm deleting what I posted here because it wasn't about the music. Sorry if anybody had invested time in responding to it. I don't think there was anything uncalled for or mean in it, but I love this conversation and I really like Liz *and* Sloopjohnb72 and think everyone is saying interesting and valuable things and there's no reason for me to have made a long post that wasn't about the music! Thanks everyone for making this thread so cool!

I thank you BJL changing your post, it was very kind and appreciated - in line with you I will now modify my own post.

I can understand from your point of view the importance of documentary evidence but I also understand the power of history passed down by word of mouth - how many times now have verbal histories been proven to be more accurate?  How long can paper last and how vulnerable is it to flood, fire and error?  I think it has a place but to over estimate it is dangerous especially in a creative situation where someone’s creative plan is contained in their head and in constant flux it is impossible to know the truth.

I do care about all of Smile but LTSDD was shelved on 19th May 1967 but was merged with CCW in October 67 (it's on the Smile Sessions boxed set) - could this be a co-incidence or a plan.  The words mean water in Hawaiian but yet we dismiss it out of hand that it could be LTSDD when we don’t know.  It’s not a crime to say we don’t know.  This isn’t science, the answer is not ‘no’ until it is proven, the answer is ‘we don’t know’.  It is water is a theory.  It is associated with babies is a theory and it is both is a theory (and the last one is one I believe).

I do appreciate all the information that has been provided and the wealth of knowledge is impressive.  We shouldn't get so fixed on a position but it just shows our passion about the subject.  I do try to be open minded and never dismiss something out of hand without looking into it first but where something is said against Brian or his project I'm afraid being objective goes out of the window.  He isn't perfect but he's suffered enough and been gaslighted for years for producing an amazing piece of art which was under appreciated at the time.
22  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss on: July 26, 2022, 11:09:27 AM


This portion in the reply gets toward the core of what folks were reporting as early as Paul Williams' interview with David Anderle, where such switching around of parts was discussed as part of the project becoming stuck in its own gears, so to speak. But, having made those changes in an attempt to create a more "grandiose" version of H&V, and then leaving that by the roadside as well, we are really at the point where Brian could have conceivably gone back after he'd decided exactly what *was* going to be the released version of H&V (the single version that wound up on SMILEY) and restored the portions of the other songs that wound up being unused.

Which leads to the question of how and why "Cabinessence" was released, and how it was (apparently) found in an intact version using the sequence that was strung together earlier in December 1966. The "how" I think that the mega-scholars of SMiLE can easily cover, but the "why" is something that leads back into the area of inquiry that you folks really seem loath to discuss here. The fact that Brian felt happier (for a time) while he was putting SMILEY together is hardly surprising: given the intractable intensity he'd been dealing with during the previous month, a condition that had literally brought his prodigious work process to a halt, a resolution to the creative and interpersonal impasse that had been plaguing him must have been greeted with a sense of (creative) euphoria. (There are, however, audible examples of some "pain and strain" in the process, as manifested in the UM bootleg disk for SMILEY; as much of a sense of relief at having a way out of the earlier impasse might have propelled the project, it still had to be gotten through, and underlying it had to be a sense that the band wasn't going to escape from critical and commercial backlash once the LP was released.)

But the problem was that it didn't last but another nine months, and in the real world the LPs that came out as a result of this temporary rejuvenation did not re-establish the Beach Boys as a top-of-the-line commercial entity (no matter how much we may love them now). And that clearly came back into the picture in mid-1968, when it appears that Brian hits another, different kind of creative wall--more akin to "writer's block" than "too many options". All of which eventually leads back to the question: why was "Cabinessence" (in its original configuration) revisited by Carl and Dennis and prepared for release on 20/20? What triggered the decision to do that? Was it some kind of end play by the band to ensure that the SMiLE material would not be something that Brian could revisit? Did they think that those two tracks would sell more records if they were included? (Not remembering any type of publicity campaign by Capitol trumpeting the presence of "lost SMiLE tracks"--that would take another two years to occur, when the band's commercial situation in America was even more problematic than was the case in the fall of '68.)

Was there some kind of internal tug-of-war that played out regarding what Brian could/could not do? The Redwood incident may only be the most visible manifestation of such a process that unfolded over that period. What we go from is a memo from Engemann where Brian seems on board with a 10-track version of SMiLE to be issued on Brother Records which can still use the booklet, to a situation where two tracks from SMiLE end up on a subsequent LP two years later that is back on Capitol. While these matters may not be as alluring to those who want to focus on the musical puzzles, they are fallout results from a series of after-events stemming from the music that (arguably, at least) need just as much attention from researchers.

Do you not think that the Redwood incident may be the actual moment that Brian knew he was not going to be able to bring out Smile with the band, with someone else or on his own?

The review for Rolling Stone didn't even mention Smile only Smiley Smile. "“Cabinessence,” the last cut on the second side, is one of the finest things Brian has ever done, a product of the Smiley Smile collaboration with Parks, whose extraordinary gift it is to make a cliche grow into a world: “Lost and found you still remain there/I’ll nind a meadow filled with reindeer [ Cheesy] —/I’ll build you a home on the range.” The totally orchestrated cacophony was an innovation in rock when they used it in Smiley Smile, and is still done here better than anywhere else. Piano imitates ukelele, and the solo vocal is gentle, but brilliant.

So clearly they didn't do much in the way of promotion of 20/20 or else didn't want them to know about Cabinessence being on Smile.  I can remember Brian emphasising with some force  in an interview, but can't remember where, that Cabinessence was from Smile.  Clearly it was significant to him.  I think a lot of the album was over shadowed by Manson.
23  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss on: July 26, 2022, 10:05:43 AM
So what is written on the tape boxes, while helpful in identifying what they thought they were recording at the time, does not tell you what it morphed into nor how Brian intended to overlay these pieces or if they may be used in more than one place.

Objectively, it does.

If Brian Wilson made an edit, then an edit was made by Brian Wilson. There are literal, physical thing he did to the music that are known. People are asking about these things, and I am answering.

Sometimes, these facts disagree with our own, personal "Smile". That is ok. But it does not change the facts, nor does it diminish their implications.

Someone asked me about objective truths surrounding Brian's plans for Love to Say Da Da, and I laid them out. You're not a fan of the facts and that's ok, but they cannot be publicly denied just because someone's interpretation is contradicted by the truths of the music. An interpretation, which, as I've made clear, is contradictory to what Marilyn Wilson, Carl Wilson, and Stephen Desper have all individually explained what the song is about, and which is founded upon misinformation itself (I am once again letting you know that Van Dyke Parks was not creatively involved with LTSDD).

If you want to make the argument that LTSDD works better on Smile as the water element, then by all means, make that argument and I won't stop ya! But if you want to make the argument that several people closely involved with the Smile album were all individually lying about Brian's plans for both LTSDD and the water element, and this is "proven" because some guy wrote an opinion piece about what the song means which you prefer, well, I hope you at least see how the logic isn't there.

What is it about 'the words to the song usually denote what it is about' that you don't understand?

Does it say on a box anywhere that Brian wrote CCW with the intention or the possibility of merging it with Da Da? 

Where those tapes which went missing from the studio ever recovered?

It is not my personal Smile - I don't have a fixed idea of what Smile is or could have become.  I find it rather laughable that you all seem to think that you can create Brian's personal Smile from bits of paper.

Earlier someone pointed out that people can lie - or are Marilyn and the people 'closely involved with Smile' immune or is that just when it suits our purposes?

I concede that VDP was not involved in LTSDD - so Brian wrote the words to the chant - does that make any difference - are we presuming he wasn't capable?

I am not making any argument about LTSDD - frankly this is your obsession I don't really care.

All this squabbling about who knows the most all seems rather pointless to me.  This is a message board not somewhere where we are carving the history in stone nor do we have access to an oracle just some administrative documentation, which whilst helpful, does not include the whole plan. 

I'm not sure I can be bothered with this any more.  I asked a particular question which no one has been able to answer and we have side tracked ourselves over smaller questions. The truth about all this is unlikely ever to to be known and however much you satisfy yourself that you have found the real Smile it will still only be your 'personal Smile' unless it's the one Brian put out in 2004. 
24  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss on: July 26, 2022, 04:52:22 AM
I think many of you are rather misunderstanding the creative process. This will obviously differ from person to person and start in different ways and in a different order but a huge part of it is working out the form and linking the individual ideas which have been triggered in your head.  You have to then find out which things are realisable and which parts are not and rework in other ways the parts which are not.  The whole thing remains in flux right until the final moment and even then it is difficult to know when to stop and when it is finished.  

Perpetuating the notion that Brian was not moving things around and that there was a recipe which Brian followed strictly is not just wrong, it's provably wrong.  I don't know that Da Da was always intended to be the water ritual that brought Brian back from death in his LSD trip so is combined with the cries of a new born or if that is just the elegant culmination.  It may have been one of those happy accidents that turned it into this but VDP is the master of double meaning and esoteric knowledge and I find belittling his skill to prove a small and relatively insignificant point an irritation especially since I would think this is one place where his skill would be appreciated.  We also don't know exactly what Brian thought Da Da was - he may always have had the idea of using it as water and may have written CCW to combine with it deliberately since they match quite well and since that is actually what he did with it for a time until he decided he didn't like it.  This is more undocumented information which we will never know the answer to, because even if you could ask Brian, he may not remember, may have some motive for distorting the truth or may not know what his unconscious may have been swilling about.

So what is written on the tape boxes, while helpful in identifying what they thought they were recording at the time, does not tell you what it morphed into nor how Brian intended to overlay these pieces or if they may be used in more than one place.  

We don't think that this was ever completed in the way he wanted to do it and no doubt BWPS would have been different to the original.  Yes, the fans versions are interesting and a build your own Smile would be interesting (the fans versions because they are continuous sometimes highlight the beauty over looked in the individual themes when we are all working out how to put it together) so they do have a purpose but when I spoke about the way the listener hears and interprets the music I was not so much talking about them creating their own version but their response to the music created by the composer - it effects all people individually and triggers memories and knowledge of which the composer was unaware.  Some people like me and Brian may think that is deliberate but that might be a bit woo woo for most of you.  

I am sure that WilJC is right that Brian was struggling to complete it and it was an enormous burden lifted from his shoulders but he also said 'if you don't want to progress you shouldn't live' and did his damnest to put himself out of conscious thought for a good few years.  And you have to ask yourself why it became such a huge burden and the answer is surely that rather than having any help he was being fought with.  It was a difficult project to start with but when your collaborator has been chased away and you have to fight everyone to get anything done you might just throw the towel in.

We listened to an old pod cast by Mark Dillion last night in which he gave his ordered version of the album and many of his ideas were interesting.  Whilst we all knew of the various themes which were supposed to be included in the album I had not realised that the westward expansion in the album was geographically sequential and that The Elements and life cycle are all sequential within it too - or at least they could be:  the site of the Chicago fire being further east than than the pool and waterfall in Hawaii for instance.  If this is what was intended it ought to be possible to work out what the exact sequence should be.  (Just looked into this some more and I don't think it will work) I don't know where this would place Surf's Up given that VDP based it on a French book but surfing was a sacred activity in Hawaii and we finish with Song for Children which seems from the coda of the first recording to be intended from the start (irrespective of what Rieley claimed) so it finishes on a good old zen idea of reincarnation.
25  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss on: July 26, 2022, 01:59:40 AM
I think many of you are rather misunderstanding the creative process. This will obviously differ from person to person and start in different ways and in a different order but a huge part of it is working out the form and linking the individual ideas which have been triggered in your head.  You have to then find out which things are realisable and which parts are not and rework in other ways the parts which are not.  The whole thing remains in flux right until the final moment and even then it is difficult to know when to stop and when it is finished.  

Perpetuating the notion that Brian was not moving things around and that there was a recipe which Brian followed strictly is not just wrong, it's provably wrong.  I don't know that Da Da was always intended to be the water ritual that brought Brian back from death in his LSD trip so is combined with the cries of a new born or if that is just the elegant culmination.  It may have been one of those happy accidents that turned it into this but VDP is the master of double meaning and esoteric knowledge and I find belittling his skill to prove a small and relatively insignificant point an irritation especially since I would think this is one place where his skill would be appreciated.  We also don't know exactly what Brian thought Da Da was - he may always have had the idea of using it as water and may have written CCW to combine with it deliberately since they match quite well and since that is actually what he did with it for a time until he decided he didn't like it.  This is more undocumented information which we will never know the answer to, because even if you could ask Brian, he may not remember, may have some motive for distorting the truth or may not know what his unconscious may have been swilling about.

So what is written on the tape boxes, while helpful in identifying what they thought they were recording at the time, does not tell you what it morphed into nor how Brian intended to overlay these pieces or if they may be used in more than one place.  

We don't think that this was ever completed in the way he wanted to do it and no doubt BWPS would have been different to the original.  Yes, the fans versions are interesting and a build your own Smile would be interesting (the fans versions because they are continuous sometimes highlight the beauty over looked in the individual themes when we are all working out how to put it together) so they do have a purpose but when I spoke about the way the listener hears and interprets the music I was not so much talking about them creating their own version but their response to the music created by the composer - it effects all people individually and triggers memories and knowledge of which the composer was unaware.  Some people like me and Brian may think that is deliberate but that might be a bit woo woo for most of you.  

I am sure that WilJC is right that Brian was struggling to complete it and it was an enormous burden lifted from his shoulders but he also said 'if you don't want to progress you shouldn't live' and did his damnest to put himself out of conscious thought for a good few years.  And you have to ask yourself why it became such a huge burden and the answer is surely that rather than having any help he was being fought with.  It was a difficult project to start with but when your collaborator has been chased away and you have to fight everyone to get anything done you might just throw the towel in.

We listened to an old pod cast by Mark Dillion last night in which he gave his ordered version of the album and many of his ideas were interesting.  Whilst we all knew of the various themes which were supposed to be included in the album I had not realised that the westward expansion in the album was geographically sequential and that The Elements and life cycle are all sequential within it too - or at least they could be:  the site of the Chicago fire being further east than than the pool and waterfall in Hawaii for instance.  If this is what was intended it ought to be possible to work out what the exact sequence should be.  I don't know where this would place Surf's Up given that VDP based it on a French book but surfing was a sacred activity in Hawaii and we finish with Song for Children which seems from the coda of the first recording to be intended from the start (irrespective of what Rieley claimed) so it finishes on a good old zen idea of reincarnation thus bringing it full circle.
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