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1  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Feel Flows box set on: September 08, 2020, 11:32:04 AM
Good point. I'll own that! I'm being too snarky.

spring baby,

Are you this “persuasive” in your everyday life? Did you insult your way into a promotion, a raise, or a first date maybe? Have you successfully shamed your neighbors or co-workers into voting for your preferred candidate this fall?
2  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Feel Flows box set on: September 08, 2020, 11:29:15 AM
You're just regurgitating the same stuff we've been reading on message boards for 7 years. Does anyone stop to consider whether these copyright "facts" are even accurate? The only thing I'm confused about is why some fans are posing as copyright experts.



Mine was rhetorical question. If I were looking for serious answers re: copyright extension I’d consult a music lawyer (and even they don’t seem to agree on the European copyright thing). Some musicians including The Beach Boys have just been playing it safe – that’s all.

I just think it’s funny that the very same posters who used to carefully explain in legal terms why The Beach Boys were releasing piles of session outtakes and concerts are the same people who are now explaining how only unreleased songs are in copyright peril. It’s almost as if nobody knows anything. Including me.

I think it’s possible we get a 5CD boxset.
I think it’s possible we get a large digital dump at the end of the year.
I think it’s possible we get a bare bones handful of 1970 songs at the end of the year.
I think it’s possible we get nothing.


Quote
And if you're right, that Feel Flows MUST come out before Dec 31st, then what is everybody fretting about?

HeyJude answered this question pages back and I even quoted it yesterday in direct response to your exact question. Please read his post(s) carefully.

@freakysmiley, thanks for commenting there! I would be surprised if they answered you, but it was definitely worth a shot.

It is promising that they shared an article about ‘Sunflower’ - surely this must mean something?

The copyright situation is fairly easy to understand, at least in terms of practical considerations and recordings that need to be released. What are you confused about?

1- Compositions and sound recordings are separate copyrights.
2- Any compositions that have not been published need to be released by 12/31 in some form, to be protected.
3- Any unique sound recordings that have not been published need to be released by 12/31. My understanding is an alternate version/mix from the same recording session would be considered covered if released (i.e., a vocals only mix, take 1 vs. take 17, etc.).


What they clearly did on the 1969 set was to quietly release a sort of "alternate" take of "I'm Going Your Way" to fulfill the copyright, while presumably the more final version would be on Feel Flows. They did not need to release any of the other 1969 totally unreleased tracks (aside from "Carnival"), as these have all been released in some form or another.

Looking at Feel Flows, it is clear that a copyright dump is not the same thing as an archive project at this point. With every release, the compilers/producers have included tons of material they don't have to include. Presumably they have also left out material that is deemed never to be released at all, and has not been booted. The main point here is that if there is any possibility that they may want to release it, and/or it has been circulated in some form - it needs to be included.

This includes live recordings. For instance, if there is a recording of Brian performing at the Whisky in 1970 - it seems any surviving sound recordings may become public domain in the UK on 1/1.

There are a myriad of factors beyond the surface here. IMO "Seasons in the Sun" and "Big Sur" would be key tracks to lead the set as "singles" or promos for marketing purposes. "Seasons in the Sun" sounds like a lost BB hit, and it's appealing that the group recorded it prior to the Terry Jacks version. If you guys think we're getting the full copyright dump of "Seasons in the Sun" in good quality - how would you feel if it's in the form of  a 30-second  "Take 4, alternate mix" which features Carl's scratch vocal, and talking and laughing? How would you feel if there's a soundboard recording of Brian at the Whisky, but we get the bootlegged audience recording for the dump?

How would you feel if those kinds of tracks are all we ever get, because the potential lack of releasing Feel Flows by the end of 2020 negates the need for any kind of lavish, comprehensive set? What if the same thing happens in 2021?
3  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Feel Flows box set on: September 08, 2020, 11:04:32 AM
I may be "wrong". I guess time will tell. You seem quite authoritative though. Sounds like I have so much to learn from you.


You make a great point. They've paid for the research/studio time/liner notes part already... so who knows? Maybe there's a desire (by someone?) to take the best items from the Feel Flows set and roll them into a 2021 career-spanning set. That's a just a guess. I sincerely hope not!


Your guess is wrong. It has been explained numerous times that the delays have nothing to do with the content of the set. While I suppose that didn't specifically spell out precluding this scenario ("saving" the material for some other career-spanning set), I will specifically say that that is *not* the plan, and the delays on "Feel Flows" have nothing to do with wanting the material for some *other* release down the road.

I've also already mentioned in past posts that marketability/fear of low sales, etc. have *nothing* to do with the delays.

BRI did not greenlight and pay for the set to be 100% completed and then realize "oh s**t, a 1970/71 boxed set won't outsell hits compilations!" They've released a slew of both physical and digital archival releases, and everybody on all sides (the band members, shareholders, the label, the people working on the sets) are *very well aware* of the potential sales for such releases.
4  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Feel Flows box set on: September 08, 2020, 10:56:53 AM
New-member-splaining? It’s been 8 years since my last post but heck time flies and I haven’t felt the need. Sorry.

Consider it decades-of-experience-splaining. The overhead costs are extremely high and your comments show me you’ve had no experience in this. You’re just talking.

If lavish Beach Boys box sets made money, they’d make one every year. Even those McCartney sets (which I love BTW) are break-even at best. They’re just legacy-establishing pieces. Grab ‘em while you can folks.



And for those very same folks who are now lashing out at ESQ for saying that a 1000-signature petition is not enough to move the profit-motive needle, here’s a bit of news: It’s NOT enough to move the needle. I’m not saying this to defend ESQ (I’ve never read an issue) but reality is reality.

The problem isn't specifically ESQ commenting on the lack of efficacy of a petition, but rather the aversion to covering this story/issue AT ALL. As I said before, it's not surprising, it's just unfortunate. ESQ has had some great writers come in to write some great scholarly/research articles. But the magazine as a whole has never and still doesn't live up to the billing as the Beach Boys "Publication of Record." It strays away from any difficult or important issues surrounding the band. No difficult questions are asked.

That ESQ hasn't even appeared to *politely ask* any members about why the box isn't coming out speaks volumes. That ESQ would belittle a petition (however minimally it might actually bring any change) also speaks volumes.

I keep hearing comments like “Why won’t The Beach Boys just take my money?”. Answer: because there is no money to make on a project like this. Just consider the research costs, studio time, final mastering costs, legal fees, manufacturing costs, promotion costs, etc. And when (years from now) it finally makes a profit, it will be divided among several estates.

At most, Feel Flows is a legacy release. A money-losing vanity piece that would hopefully remind everybody how truly great the 1970-1971 Beach Boys were. And at the very least, Feel Flows is fancy damage control release for the sole purpose of retaining European copyrights (if that’s even a real thing anymore).

With all due respect, I don't think you need to new-member-splain to a 15-year-old Beach Boys message board the popularity and selling power of 1970s Beach Boys material. Many of the folks in this thread have been fans for decades and decades and have been online since the 90s. We're well aware what the big sellers are.

That being said, your characterization of the situation is inaccurate and incomplete. "Feel Flows", like "Sunshine Tomorrow" and other similar sets, would never burn up the sales charts. EVERYBODY knows that.

But BRI owns the materials, a box set would be sold at a premium, and overhead costs are not excessive on such sets.

Knowing the sales potential, BRI greenlit this set, as they have done many others in the past.

Also, as others have already pointed out, all those overheard costs have *already* been paid out. All that's left to do is bring money in.


I have no idea what any of the individual Beach Boys are thinking, but if I were to make a guess, I would GUESS that Mike is thinking solely in reunion terms, which is to say, people will be starving for uncomplicated fun in 2021… maybe a 60-date 60th anniversary summer/fall tour with guest stars galore… a cheesy new Beach Boys “Duets” CDs on the endcap of every Target and Walmart, plus a MIC-style career-spanning box in late 2021.

Wrong. None of that has anything to do with the delays. Further, Mike has already re-booked his own 2020 shows for 2021. There's an open question about how much *anybody* will be touring next year, but if tours ramp back up, it'll be Mike's band.

5  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Feel Flows box set on: September 08, 2020, 10:37:36 AM
Mine was rhetorical question. If I were looking for serious answers re: copyright extension I’d consult a music lawyer (and even they don’t seem to agree on the European copyright thing). Some musicians including The Beach Boys have just been playing it safe – that’s all.

I just think it’s funny that the very same posters who used to carefully explain in legal terms why The Beach Boys were releasing piles of session outtakes and concerts are the same people who are now explaining how only unreleased songs are in copyright peril. It’s almost as if nobody knows anything. Including me.

I think it’s possible we get a 5CD boxset.
I think it’s possible we get a large digital dump at the end of the year.
I think it’s possible we get a bare bones handful of 1970 songs at the end of the year.
I think it’s possible we get nothing.


Quote
And if you're right, that Feel Flows MUST come out before Dec 31st, then what is everybody fretting about?

HeyJude answered this question pages back and I even quoted it yesterday in direct response to your exact question. Please read his post(s) carefully.

@freakysmiley, thanks for commenting there! I would be surprised if they answered you, but it was definitely worth a shot.

It is promising that they shared an article about ‘Sunflower’ - surely this must mean something?
6  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Feel Flows box set on: September 08, 2020, 04:00:41 AM
I know the "situation"... 60 pages of armchair lawyers. Plenty of major artists haven't even bothered so... maybe.
And if you're right, that Feel Flows MUST come out before Dec 31st, then what is everybody fretting about?

And just to be clear, I mean to say *just a few* armchair lawyers, over and over, throughout the 60 pages.


Maybe. But if they must release Feel Flows during 2020 then what are we all worried about? Let's party.

It’s not a maybe. It’s the reality of the situation...which is why there are nearly 60 pages of posts in this thread. To make it clearer, here are a couple posts that easily spell out the situation:

One of the points I've made many times in this thread is that yes, they *would* likely need to put *something* out by the end of the year digitally. But it would not likely be anywhere near the full contents of the box. They'd only need to put out titles that are unreleased and need to be protected. It could end up being closer to that late 2019 "I'm Going Your Way" copyright drop. No cover art, only a hand full of tracks.

I could easily see that minimalist digital release removing even *more* motivation and sense of urgency in ever putting the full set out.

We're not making assumptions. We have real information, from people who are involved and people who know what's going on.

It's getting kinda old to see folks pop into this thread and either not read the thread, or ignore it, and make some some sort of uninformed mic-drop comment.

If nothing had been said about this set, and we were just assuming some sort of set should be coming out, then yes, that would be a lot of assumptions.

That's not the case here. A large, lavish, dignified, DESERVED boxed set has been sitting on the shelf finished for months and months and months. If it's not released by the end of the year, we are very unlikely to see *all* of those contents released digitally. But a partial digital release could do more harm than good to getting the full set out.
7  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Feel Flows box set on: September 07, 2020, 08:18:10 PM
I get it. Not your cup of tea. But if they do it, the tour WILL sell out because it will bring people some much-needed joy. I'm confident we'll get that high fidelity document of Carl and Dennis sooner or later, but the only ship that has truly sailed is seeing Carl and Dennis live. The others are still with us and I'll consider it a treat and even an honor to celebrate their music with them yet again regardless of their age.

Beach Boy reunion in 2021 is frankly not a prospect that appeals to me, even if it were to happen. The ship has sailed - 2012 was good but we must remember nearly a decade has passed. Mike and Al's  voice hasn't declined too much, but Brian's and Bruce's seem to have worsened quite a bit. These are people nearing 80 years old - and 80 is a very different beast than 70 in terms of physical health and endurance.

If it's down to the hypothetical 60th anniversary tour vs. a full and high fidelity document of one of Carl and Dennis's peaks as songwriters and recording artists, it's the latter all the way for me. It may not be of the greatest appeal to a broad audience, but it's historically and culturally important that it be available for public consumption.

This is *especially* true for Dennis's work in my opinion. There's still a long way to go in reversing his current reputation as the self-destructive wild card who brought Charlie Manson into the fold. Dennis's musical output between 68-72 would speak for itself - if it were all given the proper chance to be heard.
8  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Feel Flows box set on: September 07, 2020, 08:06:58 PM
Maybe. But if they must release Feel Flows during 2020 then what are we all worried about? Let's party.

Quote
B) 2021 reunion tour, cheesy 2021 reunion CD, and a 2023 archive boxset covering 1970-1973

The reason why people want this out before December 31, 2020 is because of copyright deadlines. So releasing an archival boxset in 2023 would be completely pointless for the band to do.
[/quote]
9  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Feel Flows box set on: September 07, 2020, 07:47:42 PM
You make a great point. They've paid for the research/studio time/liner notes part already... so who knows? Maybe there's a desire (by someone?) to take the best items from the Feel Flows set and roll them into a 2021 career-spanning set. That's a just a guess. I sincerely hope not! Like I said, I'll be REALLY disappointed if the complete 5-CD set doesn't come out. I just don't think that the way to help this thing along is via insults toward band members. I like all of the Beach Boys. I don't agree with every decision that each makes... but I like all of them. And for someone who likes all of them, you can't beat the Sunflower/Surf's Up era. I'm not directing that last part at you. That's just a general thought.



I keep hearing comments like “Why won’t The Beach Boys just take my money?”. Answer: because there is no money to make on a project like this. Just consider the research costs, studio time, final mastering costs, legal fees, manufacturing costs, promotion costs, etc. And when (years from now) it finally makes a profit, it will be divided among several estates.


Fair point overall, but do keep in mind that most of those costs have probably already occurred, given that the project is complete and ready to go.
10  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Feel Flows box set on: September 07, 2020, 05:38:28 PM
I can’t think of a music release I would want more (by any artist) than this Feel Flows boxset. It will be a bummer if it is not released especially having read about its existence from band members and participants for the last 10 months.

Yes, it does appear that Mike Love might be (based on the tiny amount of info we have) one of the hold outs.

Here is what I do not understand. If you believe that Mike Love is the reason for the hold-up/cancellation, why trash him in an effort to achieve your stated goal? Are you Mike Derangement Syndrome folks this “persuasive” in your everyday lives? Did you insult your way into a promotion, a raise, or a first date maybe? Have you successfully shamed your neighbors or co-workers into voting for your preferred candidate this fall?

And for those very same folks who are now lashing out at ESQ for saying that a 1000-signature petition is not enough to move the profit-motive needle, here’s a bit of news: It’s NOT enough to move the needle. I’m not saying this to defend ESQ (I’ve never read an issue) but reality is reality.

I keep hearing comments like “Why won’t The Beach Boys just take my money?”. Answer: because there is no money to make on a project like this. Just consider the research costs, studio time, final mastering costs, legal fees, manufacturing costs, promotion costs, etc. And when (years from now) it finally makes a profit, it will be divided among several estates.

At most, Feel Flows is a legacy release. A money-losing vanity piece that would hopefully remind everybody how truly great the 1970-1971 Beach Boys were. And at the very least, Feel Flows is fancy damage control release for the sole purpose of retaining European copyrights (if that’s even a real thing anymore).

And for those of you who say “Mike Love’s people will never see my nasty comments anyway”, then I say “they’ll never see your petition either.”

I have no idea what any of the individual Beach Boys are thinking, but if I were to make a guess, I would GUESS that Mike is thinking solely in reunion terms, which is to say, people will be starving for uncomplicated fun in 2021… maybe a 60-date 60th anniversary summer/fall tour with guest stars galore… a cheesy new Beach Boys “Duets” CDs on the endcap of every Target and Walmart, plus a MIC-style career-spanning box in late 2021.

And if that IS what he’s thinking then, for him, Feel Flows is just some dusty for-collectors-only release that will step on upcoming reunion messaging and undermine the surprise of Big Beach Boys News in early 2021.

Like I said, I'll be bummed if Feel Flows fizzles, but if I had to choose between:
A) a Feel Flows archive set in 2020, no 2021 reunion tour, no cheesy 2021 reunion CD
B) 2021 reunion tour, cheesy 2021 reunion CD, and a 2023 archive boxset covering 1970-1973
I’ll go with “B”  because 2021 would surely be the last time the surviving Beach Boys could pull off a reunion. And I want to get out of the house. I sure hope these guys can work it out.
11  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: New Mike & Bruce dates posted on Pollstar on: February 01, 2013, 04:24:58 AM
Why would there be mud-slinging? There WAS mud-slinging in the fall (by both factions and choice offspring). And then it stopped. That's the point. Maybe something good is happening now. Despite what you say, there ARE fewer projected 2013 dates than usual... and very few recent dates. But there's really no point in me defending a theory. Only time will reveal.

No mud-slinging, no news, and far fewer tour dates scheduled than usual.

There are no fewer dates scheduled than any other year at this time -- tour dates don't tend to get announced until three months before the show (some do, but those are the exception, not the rule), and Mike & Bruce are pretty solidly booked up in May.
And why *would* there be mud-slinging?
12  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: New Mike & Bruce dates posted on Pollstar on: February 01, 2013, 01:47:11 AM
No solid evidence of another reunion, but a couple possible indicators:
I think Mike showed his hand when he made that surprise solo appearance with California Saga at The Grammy Museum last July (keep in mind -- Mike knew full well at that point that he'd soon be resuming the Mike & Bruce tour). He announced on stage "I look forward to California Saga being the opening act for The Beach Boys next summer". I seriously doubt that he meant that Al's kids and Brian's kids would be HIS opening act.

If any real bad blood exists between Mike/Brian/Al, California Saga would have surely fallen apart by now. Instead, they have announced on Facebook that they're currently recording Beach Boys material in the studio (classic material, I assume). In other words, I'm following the B-story: a subtext that informs and eventually dovetails with the A-story, which is… suspiciously quiet. No mud-slinging, no news, and far fewer tour dates scheduled than usual. I know that sounds naively optimistic, but I suspect that The Beach Boys have been secretly writing/recording new material for the last couple months and that we'll hear word of a new album in 2013.

This is all speculation, of course. I don't claim to be an insider (or speak in riddles in hopes that people will mistake me for an insider), but I'd really like to see the reunion continue -- and I want a better reunion album than the one we got.
Hell. . . . . .any chance of these getting "converted" to real BB, or are we thinking that the real BB shows will be skipping this year?
Howie, any sense of the word on a "new album"?

I would not go to a Mike Bruce show, though I did a few years ago when it was the only game in town. After 3 BB "real shows"  I would not do M and B. But BA and D?  yes.

Allow me to present the sum total of 'evidence' that there will be any full-on BB shows ever again:

1: Brian mentioned - once - that he'd wanted to do more such shows...

2: Alan has said the same, slightly more often...

3: David is reported as saying so also...

4: Mike has vaguely alluded to working with the others again, context and timeframe unspecified...

5: Many posters here and elsewhere are under the impression that if they say it's going to happen enough times, it will.
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