Love the song. Al does an awesome job with the lyrics and providing energy to the song. More quirky lyrics too! Not sure exactly what this is referring to, but it cracks me up every time.

Take it one little inch at a time now
'Til we're feelin' fine now
I guess I've got a way with girls

EVERY a capella (or near a capella) break in a BB song.

I agree with this 100%

We have audio proof that Mike is a pretty reasonable guy in the studio.

Then we have many stories that say what a monster he was, and that he said "this" or "that" but I was wondering if anything in the audio archives exist to support (m)any of the negative things. Although we have only isolated audio snapshots of what went on in the studios, they are overwhelmingly positive.

Again, I am referring to the attitude at the time of the recordings and not something he said later, because Mike can often undo much of the good he did by opening his mouth about it later.

That seemed tongue-in-cheek, but if it is not, I think you are reading way  too much into it.

California Girls did not cover every region, just like the Beach Boys missed some surfing spots in Surfin' USA. You cannot possibly fit everything in one song. California Girls is a song is about the guys appreciating different aspects of women from around the United States. Sure, Florida has sunshine, but so does most of the rest of the world. In fact, if you want to get nitpicky, they covered the entire globe with that "all around this great big world" line, so Florida can be represented there.

I am not trying to be condescending, so please do not read it that way. I am not sure if you were around for drive-ins but in the even that you were not (or for anyone else who was not) the "remember only you can prevent forest fires" line is from a PSA that we would see all the time at the drive ins.



As it follows the line "if you say you watched the movie, you're a couple of liars", I think the insinuation is that you were doing something WAY more fun than watching the movie. Back then the parents cared enough to ask what the movie was about and if you could not tell them anything about the movie, they may assume that you did not use the car to go to the drive-in, and you would not get to borrow the car again. Kids would borrow their parents cars and use them as free motel rooms, go to the drive-in and make out. I think that "remember only you can prevent forest fires" is a smart-ass way to "prove" you were at the drive-in since that PSA was at all the drive-ins - so it was a "can't miss" response to your parents question. It is part of Mike's swaggery, smart-Alec delivery that he had in the early songs.

I agree it is a lame line as it does not date well, but it does make sense. The Beach Boys often had lyrics that I did not understand. Right from the very start (I do not know surfing terms) in Surfin' when Mike sings, my surfin' knots are rising" I had no idea what he was talking about. There was no internet back then. Now there is so much information out there, I know what Huarache sandals and Lake Pipes are. LOL.

Yes, in hindsight he realized that drugs screwed him up pretty good and he gives the advice not to do them. But it seems that at the time, he found that they served a purpose that may have enhanced his creativity as he was writing some of his best stuff at this time. As we know, too much of a good thing is almost universally bad.

I read so much about Mike Love being hated and I understand he has said some things that can be real turn-offs to people. But what about his behavior inside the studio? Not 'often paraphrased accounts' from people, or "a friend of a friend heard Mike say this..." What about what we can hear with our own two ears?

Maybe it is just me, but when I listen to the Beach Boys multiple vocal attempts, I cannot help but feel that even when it was getting exasperating to re-record something for the umpteenth time, Mike seemed to be having fun in the studio and goofing around with the guys - often he is the one heard most doing funny voices and breaking the tension. Brian really seemed to like Mike's sense of humor. Mike did an amazing job with the vocals and generally seemed very cooperative during the session tapes.

Now maybe later, he would make comments about the sessions, but at the time he seemed to be okay with it.

I wasn't offended.  It happens all the time, so I have to take at least partial responsibility for not being clear.

The gatorade example, btw, is from real life.  In Texas, no less.

Wow, at nearly 55 years old, you might think I was more worldly when it came to drinks, but other than many (many, many) craft beers over the last 35 years, I tend to drink whisky, whiskey or bourbon only, preferring Maker's Mark and Woodford Reserve as well as some scotches like a simple Glenlivet or Glenmorangie Quinta Ruban. Never cared for sugary drinks, rum, gin, tequila or vodka.

In your post, I thought you meant that you got Gatorade instead of a margarita, never realizing that a Gatorade margarita was 'a thing'. After you said it was a real life example, I Googled it.  That makes all the difference in the world, as your version has alcohol and would still give you the 'feel' I was referring to. With the inclusion of the alcohol, there would probably be no discernible difference in the concoctions to the average person, and your point is very valid. Oops.

I guess I will have to drink more, so I can understand the references.

Did anyone catch this? I just saw the last 10 minutes and I am kicking myself for missing it. Hopefully it will be rebroadcast...

Edit 04/08/2017 at 2:27pm:
I was able to go to OnDemand and find it on Showtime. Interviews were all positive and Mike, Al, Bruce and David spoke very highly of Brian which was great to hear. A couple of Dennis clips referring to the album were included. Not much with Carl. Mike did talk about LSD very briefly, but it was not a slam at Brian. Rather it was brought up because he was recounting the story of how he felt the "Hang on to Your Ego" lyric content and how he felt it did not fit with the Beach Boys image. I actually think ot was Bruce who provided that explanation. Also, David Wild put something I had wondered about in the Drugs: Heroes or Villains thread by saying," if drugs made you a genius, then we'd have a lot more Pet Sounds..."

It was cool to see Al play piano as well. Never realized he played. Far too short a special and I would have loved to hear the musicians speak more about the music and actually touch on all of the songs.

If that's too obscure you could look at it like food or drink - like if you order a margarita and it tastes like gatorade.  You know, after a good workout, a gatorade can taste great.  But when you order a margarita, that's just not an appropriate taste to find in your glass.

Sorry, adamghost - I misunderstood the statement above as you saying that if you order a margarita, Gatorade is not a appropriate substitution. I guess I did not interpret it the way you intended, and instead took that to mean that if you purchase a Beach Boys album expecting one thing and get another, it would not be appropriate.

I did not read the Farfisa statement correctly either. I misread the part where it said "wind up using the real Farfisa". 100% my fault, but in my defense I have no idea what a Farfisa is, so please excuse some of my ignorance. It does not mean I should not have read the post more thoroughly, though.

I was not intentionally trying to misinterpret your words. I just misread your intended meaning and fit the analogy to the perceived outcome. No offense intended, believe me.

Found this interview interesting...

"I (used) drugs to create 'Pet Sounds,' and they (did) help me and it was an experience for me. Although, at the same time, I was very dismayed at the fact that — not too long afterward — I was ... using drugs much more profusely than I did with 'Pet Sounds.'

And I began to grow up, because I said, "If I can create 'Pet Sounds' on drugs, I can create something (even) greater on drugs." So I made 'Good Vibrations' on drugs; I used drugs to make that. I was on drugs. I learned how to function behind drugs, and it improved my brain, it improved the way I was, it made me more rooted in my sanity.

The only thing is a couple of side effects, like paranoia and b.s., stuff like that. But you can get over that, you know, simply by not overdoing it. If you do it in moderation, you see, I took drugs in moderation (and) I was able to create, I could create. It gave me the ability — carte blanche — to create something, you know what I mean? And that's where it's at; drugs aren't where it's at. But, for me, that's where it was at in 1966. And I got off the stuff. I said: "Hey, I don’t need this anymore.”

If that's too obscure you could look at it like food or drink - like if you order a margarita and it tastes like gatorade.  You know, after a good workout, a gatorade can taste great.  But when you order a margarita, that's just not an appropriate taste to find in your glass.

This is interesting. I know what you are saying, but this brings up a few points too. The obvious one is that if you ordered a margarita and they gave you Gatorade - but the Gatorade tasted exactly like a margarita - would you be happy? (I will revisit this at the end of the post.)

Consider:

a) If Brian had mega-multi-track recording available to him back in the very early days, and some sort of pitch correction tool like Autotune, he probably would have taken advantage of them, at least at times. It would be an easier (and cheaper) way to achieve his vision without having to have 20 takes of the same thing. But there is an issue that I will discuss in a moment.

b) George Lucas remade the original Star Wars films by adding scenes that he always felt were needed, but he did not have the capability to realize at the time. Once the capability became possible he 'fixed' what was not broken.

The above examples (Autotune and CGI) reflect an artists desire to release something to the public that is less than perfect, but artificially making it closer to perfection using technology.

So my take-aways from this are:

1. In both cases, the end results are acceptable to the majority, but the purists and die hard fans are unhappy with the sterile look and feel and prefer realism and some slight flaws at times.
2. In Brian's case, after I listened to the multiple takes in the Unsurpassed Masters sets, I noticed that even if the notes are perfect, some takes just 'feel' better than others. Often, 2 takes are nearly indistinguishable, yet one is chosen over the other because it feels right. Brian is known for his hard work in the studio and for demanding perfect harmonies and 'feels'. The Autotune is cheating and sounds fake.
3. In George Lucas' case, is the 'special edition" vision only tainted because we saw the original first? If the 'SE' version was THE original version, would we have embraced it in the same way as we did the original, or would we have walked off feeling that it could have been done better? Lucasfilm is known for producing the best, most realistic special effects in the business. The CGI is cheating and looks fake.

So the reality is that if you ordered a margarita and they gave you Gatorade - but the Gatorade tasted exactly like a margarita - you would still not be happy because it is still not a margarita. You would soon notice something is not right. The fake would be exposed because you do not get the same feeling from it. I guess that is what makes the Farfisa the better choice too.

"Deep and wide!!!"

Yes! Not sure how I forgot that one!

I know nothing about autotune, beyond what it sounds like. Is the severity of the autotune enhanced by the amount of correction needed to apply to the notes? In other words, if the notes are only slightly off, will the autotune be less obvious?

These are moments that I cannot explain, but they are very short and they elicit a strong, involuntary response. Some examples:

The intro to Don't Worry Baby, but only after the outro of Fun, Fun, Fun. There is something about that lead-in that makes the DWB intro even more powerful. Coming off Fun, Fun, Fun - I think, "how can this get and better?!" And it is like Brian read my mind and responded, "Like this..." A real OMG moment for me...

Heroes and Villains theme isolated piano riff. Absolutely riveting and haunting.

Brian's chanting section of Rio Grande with the "Big, big, big sky". I get the feeling of dread; of accidentally witnessing something I should not be seeing. Probably watched the Thuggee ceremony from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom too many times. LOL.

These random moments give me goosebumps.

The acappella "ahhhhhhh" break in Good Vibrations right before the fade. Rarely do I hear the guys hit it live. But the recorded version is absolute perfection.
The acappella Wouldn't It Be Nice right as the entire group harmonizes for the first time.
The repeated 8-note synth riff on Feel Flows directly before Carl sings "Encasing all embracing wreath of repose..."
The "domino" part of Surf's Up.

...and "her folks let me stay with her until late at night" insinuates that she is young enough to be a dependent of her parents.

Then that is not the singers fault. That's just bad parenting.     Remember that Brian start dating Marilyn when he was 20 and she was 15 or something.

Your post comes at an interesting time for me, as (being a rather late-to-the-party Brian and BBs fan) I picked up the Brian Wilson '88 album for the first time just two weeks ago.

Yes, I have been watching and waiting...

I guess hearing something is really, REALLY bad can lower one's expectations to a point where they can be pleasantly surprised.

Which is kind of where I was headed. Is it REALLY bad? What would make it better? Once it is "better" would everyone agree that it is better?

I agree with no obvious autotune though. Not on a Beach Boys album. To continue CGI Princess Leia and Tarkin reference - if it had been dead-on perfect, that would be cool, but the most successful special effects are the ones you did not notice. The Star Wars films (excluding the shitty ones) are not movies where you can get away with shoddy effects. Just like the Beach Boys are known for their perfect harmonies and they are not taken seriously if they sound fake.

One caveat: If you can use the creepiness of the noticeable special effect to your advantage to where it actually enhances the medium, then it can work really well. Like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XLu_NTu4aY
The only part of this film I enjoyed.

I guess there are fans, aficionados and connoisseurs here, so I need to ask a stupid question... I think I fall into the aficionado category. On what criteria do you judge the production of an album?

People here often complain about the production of a song or album. It really got me thinking as to what I am overlooking. As a fairly old member I grew up with the Beach Boys and appreciate 99.9% of their music - both as a band and as solo artists. Even Mike's stuff. There are so many different sounds and song styles. That does not mean I like all of it, but I can almost universally find redeeming qualities in songs I do not like.

When it comes to production, why do some songs/albums get so much shade due to "bad" production? Two of my favorite Brian albums - Bran Wilson 88 and Imagination always seem to be a target. Different producers may get different sounds from the same material, but the words "better" or "worse" or "too bright" or "too muddy" or "too dated" are all personal preferences and somewhat subjective, aren't they? You say "too dated" and I call it "nostalgic".

What makes one producer better than the other? Is it the ability to put out sounds that are well-received by the masses, or the ability to recreate on media what the artist hears is his head? What else? And which is better?

In the early 80s graphic equalizers were the rage. I had a 1978 Z-28 with an Alpine cassette deck, an amplifier and a graphic equalizer.  You could really mold the sounds that came out of the speakers. My friends would bring their cassettes with them and remark how great the songs sounded in my car compared to theirs.

The thing is, if you took 20 people and gave them the same song and allowed them to fiddle with the 20 band equalizer to make it perfect, no two settings would be the same. So there is no real answer to what is better. Only what is better for me.

Well, what can I say about Roller Skating Child? Hmmm, I always liked when the Beach Boys rhymed words with noises.   This song has my second favorite instance.

I go and get my skates on and I catch up to her
We do it holding hands, it's so cold I go "Brrrr"

My first favorite, due to it being so asinine is in Everybody Wants To Live.

A cigarette butt when you throw it in the water goes "ssst"
But the trick, but the trick is you shouldn't laugh

Seriously though, the words on much of this album are peculiar and give the album an honest, raw feeling. Well, Oh My, Oh Gosh, Oh Gee...

• I do not think Brian is a pedophile and I think that people who try to say that are really reaching. I think that most of the time when the songs sounded creepy, Brian was writing as he felt, not his actual age. Or he is writing about an age-appropriate relationship based on the people in the song are appropriate ages rather than an older guy singing about young girls.
• Child is not necessarily a literal 'child'. Someone in their 30's can be called a flower child. Everybody is someone else's child.
• Does anyone think Brian is singing about an actual baby in Don't Worry Baby?  Is it weird? Of course not.
• Only Brian knows what the real context is.

People were appalled when they heard the Kink's Art Lover and had Ray pegged as a pedophile. He is singing about secretly watching little girls. But someone wrote that the lyrics  for Art Lover  are about a divorced man who is not allowed to visit his children, and can only watch them playing on the playground without making contact with them. Still sounds a little odd, but then you hear that Ray's first wife got the courts to forbid Ray from seeing his daughters, I becomes heartbreakingly personal. Artists can often appreciate things and express them on different levels than the average listener can comprehend. Songs are often left vague and open to interpretation by the listener - just like movie endings.

Roller Skating Child rocks. It is really catchy and well sung. I even like the 3 ending notes.[/list][/list]

Wow, I am surprised so many people don't get it.

I have no issues with Mike mentioning 'fake news' and Trump. For me, it is just another sound bite that gained some legs like 'alternative facts' or 'wardrobe malfunction'. People are using these popular sound bites everywhere and nothing Mike Love can say will 'legitimize' anything or anyone.

I do have a concern that I have not read a lot about the Mike Love/Charles Manson connection in the past. That was always a Dennis story, as he was much more deeply involved and affected. Mike seems to be using it as a point of interest nowadays, perhaps overstating his role in that part of Beach Boys history.

It did answer a question that many of us have. I think Mike may have misunderstood Manson when he said, "You can't do that. You can’t leave the group." Maybe he took that a bit too literally, and that is why he is still touring at 76 years old?

If you play any of the music after 1966, the average person may recognize some of it, but still not associate it with the Beach Boys. I have no problem blasting all kinds of stuff - Beach Boys included - through the Big Blue Party speaker we got at Brookstone. In fact, I always slip in some Beach Boys stuff into the playlist. My friends and family of expect it, and I don't want to let them down.

Maybe the title for the thread should have included said “writer/co-writer” to be accurate as well.

When Mike writes under the stigma of his own name, with few exceptions the recordings never really make it onto an official album (and rightfully so). I am not saying I want an album full of songs like Wrinkles, because …well, you know why. Mike can write music, but it is not always music that people want to hear. He has dropped some sonic boners on us, for certain.

I think Summer In Paradise was lazy writing and a poor selection of tracks put out to capitalize on the success of the laid-back sound of Kokomo. Too little, too late and like rab2591 stated, it does not feel sincere. But you can still sing songs written by others and have them sound sincere.

Knowing that no matter what you do, an album released under your own (often hated) name will fail, why should Mike bother to write anything new?

Mike said he does not like to work in the studio. My scenario took that away from him opening more time to maybe listen to what some other writers come up with as songs in the Beach Boys style, that Mike could tweak into Beach Boys songs. 

I am wondering if Mike thought, “Hey, these are really good songs” – would that spark him to want to write more material? Not that all (or any) of it would have to be released, but if he wrote enough songs that were halfway decent (and that is the key idea here) and could release them under the Beach Boys name, would he simply write more material? Again, not expecting 100% of it to be released - maybe none of it will, but out of the 100%, maybe 10% can be pretty decent and put aside for a eventual Beach Boys album.

I think a reasonable follow-up question to that would be, "if he approached Brian with some high-quality completed demos that Brian could rework and add his  arrangements to, would that help take the load off Brian and nudge him towards wanting to work with Mike again?" Brian's writing style is different now and he basically said "That is not how writing is done anymore" when asked if he was aware of Mike wanting to sit down with him alone in a room and write. I am not sure if Brian ever said how it is done nowadays, though.

A few years ago, I came across a Beach Boys clip where Al Jardine was singing. I believe he had a cold at the time because he has a really reliable voice. His voice cracked very badly during the song. I want to say it was Heroes & Villains or Wouldn't It Be Nice? Does anyone know which clip I am referring to?

But for these guys to pretend they're surfin in their 70s is ridiculous...which half the fans don't buy anyways, even if it does fit the band's image.

Yeah, even if they sing the surfing songs about someone else rather than themselves, it tends to fall flat (Still Surfin'). I feel for these guys though. As we get older, we are expected to act our age otherwise we look ridiculous. I went to college when I was 49-52 years old - and talk about standing out! I would be talking to a much younger classmate as we walked through the halls and I would not think twice about it, until I caught my reflection in a vending machine glass and it put things into perspective. Damn, even if we feel young on the inside and are young at heart we are judged by appearance. Now, I am 55 years old this year and I still act like a 7-year-old.  But it is way more fun than sitting at a table with people my age acting like geezers discussing their medical problems. 

I think that in some ways, the advent of the music video hurt bands like The Beach Boys. Keeping in mind that they never looked particularly comfortable in music videos. Likewise, I can remember watching a Cars concert before Benjamin Orr died, and hearing him sing Let's Go and it sounded fine, but was creepy with the visual. This old dude singing about a 17 year old girl who doesn't wear her shoes. It is true what you say, but it is too bad it has to be like that. If the music is good, it should stand alone without the image of the band/person singing it muddying up everything.

Alas, everything is visual nowadays. I cannot look at the news on my computer without a video popping up. If I wanted to watch the news, I have a huge television for that. I just want to read - but I am afraid that will soon meet the fate that schools gave when they started dropping cursive writing. But I digress...

Mike would have to be open to all of Brian's quirky ideas.

Don't you think Mike would have learned by now, that is what makes Brian so endearing.  Many of his quirky ideas are successful. I don't expect Brian and Mike to be a hit machine nowadays, but I think that they may be capable of writing some interesting stuff. Like you alluded to, the deep, honest music appeals to the hardcore fans and if they have some catchy tunes, people buying the album for that style will be introduced to what real heartfelt, introspective music sounds like. There is room for both. Oh, and more Al vocals too.

(Mike actually made an appearance in a music video of a female singer who did a nostalgic Beach Boys-esque song, I don't think it went too far.

Probably because everyone was thinking, this is a great video, except for that old "Uncle Mike" dude. Geez, that song does owe a lot to the Beach Boys from the You're So Good To Me riff, to the song references to California Girls, Good Vibrations, Don't Worry Baby and God Only Knows...

This post is all over the place and I apologize haha. Thanks for your well thought out response to my post and I'll be back later for more discussion. I really do hope these guys regain prolific status in their latter years, they deserve it, and I know they have it in them to stand on top one more time.

Intelligent posts and discussions like this are what keep me here. Thanks for that.

Anyways, I'm done rambling. For now.

Thank you for the well-thought-out and intelligent response. There is no rambling here.

Could Mike be more prolific as a songwriter with The Beach Boys name behind him? I think one glaring strike against this idea is the album 'Summer In Paradise'. Mike had free reign to create a Beach Boys album with all of his talent behind him, all of this on the heels of releasing their last number 1 hit. He had the voice of Carl Wilson, Al Jardine, even Van Dyke Parks played a role in the album. And it bombed terribly.

Yeah, that album is weak for certain. The singing all around does not sound terribly ambitious to me, although there are a few pleasant moments. It came off as a lazy contribution. Forever and Surfin' did not have to be remade at all. With that said, I am not certain that an album with the 'fun in the sun' theme would not work. Just not the selections that were on 'Summer In Paradise'. The idea I posed was to have other outside writers (or even a contest where other people) write Beach Boys style songs and Mike's band did all the work. Mike would only have to co-write and sing. It is basically what Brian did for the band anyways.

I think the problem with Mike's songwriting for the last couple (few) decades is a lack of sincerity.

Probably. He is going through the motions for sure, but maybe he needs some material to excite him into believing in it? Sad to entertain the thought that he would not recognize that a good song sung with sincerity will probably make money. Even the Boys early 'throwaway songs' were sung beautifully and with so much enthusiasm that it brought the songs up a notch or two. 

But consider that there are catchy songs about summer and it is typically the Beach Boys early hits that people buy as a soundtrack to their summer. Those are the compilation albums that pop up all the time with the same ol' same ol' songs about the beach, surfing, cars and girls. They throw in Good Vibrations, God Only Knows, Kokomo and Darlin' from time to time because they make you feel good.

I could actually imagine the Beach Boys singing a song like Sheryl Crow's Soak Up The Sun with some measure of success. Catchy tune with harmonizing and a section at the end where most of the instruments drop out. I believe songs in this style would work better than anything from 'Summer in Paradise'. I would expect most people think something very close to the music that Mike wants when they buy a Beach Boys album. He just is not capable of writing consistently good lyrics or an album's worth of catchy music by himself. Neither of those comments is a dig at Mike. Brian often sought outside help with lyrics, but he sure could write catchy tunes.

I heard that writing is like exercising a muscle and the more you do it, the easier it becomes. Not everything will be great, but odds are there will more workable ideas with more material. But even with all that considered - with the best choices of songs written and recorded - would it be even reasonably successful with Mike's name only?

The life suite was a glimpse at that. Christ, can you imagine if they just released one album of that material? It would've gone to #1.

I agree that it was the best part of the album and I would love to hear the life suite in it's entirety. People who love Brian and his writing mostly agree that the last 3-4 songs on TWGMTR were stunning and worth the price of the album, but I am not sure that the general public would have embraced an entire album of depressing songs, regardless of how honest they were. I think those three songs got about zero radio play - and answer this honestly - do you think that exact same album with only Brian's name as a solo artist would have charted as high? How much did the nostalgia for the first Beach Boys album in many years factor into it?