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680601 Posts in 27601 Topics by 4068 Members - Latest Member: Dae Lims March 29, 2024, 12:12:34 PM
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1  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The most stunning Beach Boys AI I've heard yet on: February 15, 2024, 12:58:16 AM
Er... sorry for misspelling your name "Daelims" all the while. Fixed! Smiley
2  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The most stunning Beach Boys AI I've heard yet on: February 14, 2024, 05:22:14 PM
A thing I like particularly about this "Holy Man": how Dae Lims uses here a more symphonic/operatic kind of production, in the preferred style of Dennis, while in AI SMiLE he uses a lavish enough, but still often intimistic, production, in the preferred style of Brian.
3  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The most stunning Beach Boys AI I've heard yet on: February 14, 2024, 03:26:23 PM
On the forum where they pat themselves on the back daily for their supposed positivity and inclusion, Dae Lims is getting completely shellacked for his work there.

Kinda blows my mind that a lot of people can't see the talent/time it takes to make these tracks - nor see anything remotely positive about it. Or see the imagination behind creating these harmonies, etc.. I mean I don't think that everyone has to like this stuff, and there have been tracks I haven't liked, but it's kinda crazy seeing the dogpile of hate.

People have made Smile mixes for how long now? People have been using Brian Wilson's very own work/voice to create their own fantasy album(s) for how many decades now? I know this is a whole other universe of technology/creativity, but at its heart it is the same thing: a fan trying to create something that never was.

As Guitarfool said above: But if a fan does work like this who clearly knows the music on a level beyond collecting records and being a fan, and can import the precise musical details into the work and be musically and sonically accurate in doing so, it's a work of art unto itself.

The self-styled positivity & inclusion forum shows the eternal pointlessness of self-praise.
4  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The most stunning Beach Boys AI I've heard yet on: February 14, 2024, 02:54:18 PM

It's ironic cause most of the fan mixes there have used ai tools to demix/re-balance, and people are fine with that.
I think we need to get past using the work 'ai' as a blanket term for any new audio tech.



It's a rather indescribable experience listening to these songs. But it's very very cool. To me there's only any moral and ethical quandary if he is trying to pass them off as the real thing, or anything like that. I see/hear nothing of the sort here so I have no problem enjoying this alternate version of reality.


I think some of the key issues in this debate are found in these two quotes. I am admittedly a vintage audio type of person, I prefer the sounds created on older technology. Having said that, hearing some of the AI creations posted and linked on this forum have changed my mind regarding the use of AI technology in creating these tracks, due in large part to the superior quality and the obvious respect and attention to detail that went into making them.

This could get long, because to cover all the aspects and issues would perhaps be a book-length exploration. All I want to do is express some of my own opinions, shine light on some historical details and parallels, and perhaps open some minds and opinions for discussion and consideration.


Point 1, and perhaps the more important issue to consider, is that all audio recording of music since roughly the late 1940's is an illusion, an alternate version of reality. As soon as pioneers like Les Paul started to work with magnetic tape, which led to multitrack recording, and other pioneers like Bill Putnam started to create technology to electronically process audio signals and create unnatural sounds and effects on recordings, the doors were kicked wide open. Recorded audio became an illusion, and the process of recording musical performances became a process of creating those illusions.

Previous to these developments, a recording was essentially capturing a live performance on media to be reproduced and sold and/or broadcast. Whatever the musicians did in whatever room they performed was recorded as it happened, as if the listener were in that room with them. The only editing that was done would have been doing multiple takes of that continuous live performance in order to get the "keeper" take.

When Les Paul came along with his "New Sound" or what they used to call "Sound On Sound", most times he had only himself or he and Mary Ford playing and stacking all the tracks. Instead of hiring 5 vocalists, along with a drummer, bassist, and perhaps 10 guitarists to cut a "live" take, we instead got 12 Les Pauls and 5 Mary Fords stacking sounds atop each other, track after track, to create an ensemble recording out of two people's musical performances.

That is pure illusion, pure alternate reality. It didn't exist prior to 1947 or so in the popular music realm, and that technique forever changed music. At the time, it was also called a gimmick, a fad, a false reality, etc by musical purists. They wanted to capture a full group as it performed live, whether it be classical, jazz, country...and some still do in 2024. But the illusion created by new technology, specifically magnetic tape and multitrack recording machines moved popular music miles ahead of where it would have been.

And the issue of magnetic tape: Editing became possible. If you had a group, or even a single spoken word artist, who had recorded 10 takes of a song, but none of those takes was "the one", a skillful engineer with a razor blade, a cutting block, and adhesive tape could patch together the best segments from those 10 takes and create a continuous recording which the majority of listeners would be fooled into thinking was a single live continuous take. Again, technology created a false reality, an alternate reality, but that technology allowed the creators to make records which were more perfect than would be humanly possible.

Tape editing became not only a skill but an art form. Instead of doing a straight cut, engineers could cut and splice angles to create seamless crossfades and deliberate effects. Instead of just connecting the first minute of take 2 with the last two minutes of take 7, they could razor-blade individual tracks in and out of the performance. It was used by experimental artists but probably brought to the mainstream by way of Good Vibrations, where the tape editing became part of the performance itself and created a #1 hit record. It wasn't used as a gimmick or a comedy prop, but rather played an integral role in the performance captured on the recording. Add to that the ability to loop tapes continuously, which was probably codified in popular music by The Beatles and Tomorrow Never Knows, and seen through into the 70's when the Bee Gees unknowingly created the robotic, precise nature of dance music by using the same 2-bar drum loop on 3 smash hit disco singles in the mid-70's because their drummer had to leave the sessions due to a family emergency and they didn't want to halt work on the tracks.

I could go on, and move into digital sequencing, digital recording, DAW's, and all that, but I think those gaps can be filled into the story.

It's an illusion, it's creating alternate reality from the point where a musician performs a passage of music and that recording gets distributed to and heard by listeners.

As such, how is the AI technology in the timeline of recording technology development any different than those previous developments? People who I guess were considered "purists" also criticized Les Paul's recordings, Bill Putnam's effects, the techniques of editing tapes in general, and a whole host of other developments through the years. Claims that it was not natural, it wasn't pure, it would create "lazy" musicians or put musicians out of work, it wasn't reality...Again, consider that recording music and distributing it to listeners in a multitude of formats is in itself creating an alternate reality and an aural illusion.

It's all in how the technology is used, and what kind of art is created with the technology. Artists use tools to create a work: If you give different artists those same tools and turn them loose, isn't it foolish to assume each of those artists will create some form of "high art" with them? It's like giving a hammer, nails, and wood to 10 people and expecting all 10 to create something valid or useful with those materials. One of those 10 might decide to smash the foot of another with the hammer, Three Stooges-style, to get a laugh...how can that be controlled other than someone saying not to do it? And if their goal was to create a comedy skit, to get laughs at the expense of someone else's foot, isn't that as comedy a valid use of the tools as well?

So much to digest, I've already gone too far. But consider AI as used to create these tracks is only another tool in the development of recorded sound. If people choose to make high art, or create pure crap, it's not the technology creating the end result as long as a human is inputting the data and parameters into the AI generators. And if people like one use of it, but not another use of the same technology, that's their own hang-ups and tastes.

Now if AI turns into HAL, that's another story.  Smokin

Imho this is a stellar post, both for the content and the quality of the writing. A difficult subject made crystal clear. Thanks a lot for this, Craig.
5  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The most stunning Beach Boys AI I've heard yet on: February 14, 2024, 02:43:48 PM
I think "Holy Man" by Dae Lims is simply sublime, just as his SMiLE.
I understand some perplexities, as I myself am not sure how to classify these musical gems. The (masterful) using of AI technology is not even the main "issue", imho. Fact is, they are great works of art by Dae Lims, based directly on unfinished great works by Brian, Dennis and the Beach Boys, and their unique voices. They are a new, never seen before thing.
But, luckily, nobody is forcing me to classify them. The joy of listening to unexpected, beautiful BB-related stuff is enough.
And Dae Lims, sir, you deserve the greatest praises possible. Brian, Dennis, & Carl
6  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The Board Is Back on: November 23, 2023, 09:40:55 PM
Happy Thanksgiving to everybody from me, too!

And about our beloved Beach Boys... the best music ever!
7  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The Board Is Back on: November 23, 2023, 11:51:02 AM
And I agree 100% with Craig on what he says at start of this thread. I may have some occasional different opinions here, but this remains the best Beach Boys related forum. Thanks again to those working on it.
8  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The Board Is Back on: November 21, 2023, 07:08:47 AM
And welcome back board, and thanks a million, Charles.
9  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: What's Mike said now? on: August 07, 2023, 08:37:51 PM
Partly to try and clarify my previous post, and partly to further ease my mind from HJ, I'll quote this from the Other Board:

"Given the law of diminishing returns, Brian's recent problems and the high probability of it being mostly not that "new" at all, I just can't get worked up at all over the prospect of another BW album. For all its faults and problems, let No Pier Pressure be his last proper vocal release."

This is a textbook example of passive aggression. Translation in plain English: "Brian is toast and has been since Heaven knows when. Nothing by him will be any good in any case, so I'll accept even NPP as his final statement. At My Piano and Long Promised Road, and anything else he may do, may go f*** themselves."

See? Already deflagrated.

And so, I guess, that's it with my long relationship with BB fandom. Heaven knows it's been rough sailing. I'm returning to basics... the best music ever made by anyone in the world. The world of their music, where nobody will keep reminding either that Mike is Devil incarnate or that Brian is toast and did nothing good since 1966. The music by

Brian, Dennis, Carl, Mike, Alan, Bruce, David, Blondie, Ricky and all the others.

The Beach Boys.

Some of those people there have always done this. Back around 2010 I first came to this board and the general consensus being lobbed from some of these people was that Brian would always be a vegetable, he wasn't in control of his own life, and his band did all the work when it came to his music, etc etc. It was so prevalent that, as a new fan, it was easy to believe these things.

It took great posters like Wirestone and others to convince me otherwise that Brian is definitely in control of his life and that he makes his own music. Then NPP happened, and the floodgates opened. A small vocal segment of "fans" ripped every aspect of that album to shreds - to the point where Brian's very dignity was being attacked from many different angles.

Looking back on the near 15 years I've been apart of the fandom (which is but a drop in the bucket compared to some fans), I feel a lot of remorse for a lot of comments I've made and arguments I've started. But overall I feel an overwhelming sadness for the general fandom itself. It's just been kinda sad that a lot of online-interaction with fellow fans has tarnished the actual music for me and others I know. Which is why I have mostly stepped away from posting in recent years.

As for the band feuds, it's not just the Brian bashing that brings this fandom down, but yeah it's also the Mike bashing. I think Mike has done some very lousy things over the years, and I think he's deserved a lot of the criticism he gets, but not everything the man does deserves a mob of pitchfork wielding fans typing loudly from their living rooms (and I'll be the first to admit I've ripped into him over trivial things over the years).

If any of us were in Mike's shoes I wonder if we'd do anything much different...and I mean if we lived his entire life (from birth, to working at a gas station, to being screwed out of writing credits on famous songs, etc). Mike and Brian have both been shaped by their upbringings, their rise to fame, their own personal demons. We can shout from the sidelines, but it's gotta be much different when you're the one on the field, in the spotlight, and your entire life has been defined by the game.

No I'm not excusing Mike's behavior, but I don't think scrutinizing every thing the man does is going to make us happier as a fandom, and it's certainly not going to make the music sound better.

Zenobi, I think your comment about "returning to the basics" is spot on, it is exactly what so many of us need.

Thanks a lot for this post, Rab.
And by the way, your LOVE fanmix is simply fantastic. Thanks two lots for that!  Smiley
10  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: What's Mike said now? on: July 18, 2023, 02:16:44 PM
Partly to try and clarify my previous post, and partly to further ease my mind from HJ, I'll quote this from the Other Board:

"Given the law of diminishing returns, Brian's recent problems and the high probability of it being mostly not that "new" at all, I just can't get worked up at all over the prospect of another BW album. For all its faults and problems, let No Pier Pressure be his last proper vocal release."

This is a textbook example of passive aggression. Translation in plain English: "Brian is toast and has been since Heaven knows when. Nothing by him will be any good in any case, so I'll accept even NPP as his final statement. At My Piano and Long Promised Road, and anything else he may do, may go f*** themselves."

See? Already deflagrated.

And so, I guess, that's it with my long relationship with BB fandom. Heaven knows it's been rough sailing. I'm returning to basics... the best music ever made by anyone in the world. The world of their music, where nobody will keep reminding either that Mike is Devil incarnate or that Brian is toast and did nothing good since 1966. The music by

Brian, Dennis, Carl, Mike, Alan, Bruce, David, Blondie, Ricky and all the others.

The Beach Boys.
11  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: What's Mike said now? on: July 18, 2023, 01:06:16 AM
On the other hand, I think I can reassure SMiLE Brian. Not going to commit treachery. I read some more threads "there" and it's as baffling as the Mike bashing here. There is no blatant anti-Brian campaign, but the level of passive aggression leveled at him by some posters, including at least one admin and one famous historian, would have me deflagrate in no time if I were a member. So, no way.
12  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: What's Mike said now? on: July 18, 2023, 12:45:58 AM
Don't worry, HeyJude, will not trouble your righteousness any more after this. Just a last remark: you just made a perfect example of why I have never had any problem with SMiLE Brian and OSD, but I have with you practically always. They have a light touch, your own is as light as a ton of bricks.
And now you can resume your favourite pastime, Mike bashing. Have at him!
13  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: What's Mike said now? on: July 15, 2023, 11:08:40 AM
SMiLE Brian, I actually like you and OSD.
Never had any problem with you. You both have been always rabidly anti-Mike, but with a light touch based mostly on funny one-liners, and even a bit of self-irony IMHO.
I like your answer to my post, I find it rather friendly, and funny.
14  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: What's Mike said now? on: July 14, 2023, 06:51:13 PM
I  am a Brianista, and not even a conservative, but simply can't stand anymore this endless anti-Mike campaign. It's a new kind of bigotry.

bigotry
bĭg′ə-trē
noun
The attitude, state of mind, or behavior characteristic of a bigot; intolerance.
The character or mode of thought of a bigot; obstinate and unreasonable attachment to a particular creed, opinion, practice, ritual, or party organization; excessive zeal or warmth in favor of a party, sect, or opinion; intolerance of the opinions of others.
Synonyms Credulity, Fanaticism, etc. (see superstition), narrow-mindedness, prejudice, intolerance.
The American HeritageŽ Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.

So, I'm outta here.
15  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: What's Mike said now? on: July 11, 2023, 05:14:36 PM
Maybe I will switch to the other board after all. There, AFAIK, there is no HeyJude using "old"and "white" as insults.
16  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Great short interview on: July 06, 2023, 03:33:24 PM
Thanks to Filledeplage at the Other Board for posting it.

https://youtu.be/VO4oyiJ26Iw
17  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: New Brian Song coming. on: July 05, 2023, 12:32:05 PM
Not the same thing. Brian makes us happy.
18  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson: Long Promised Road (Original Motion Picture Soundtrack) on: July 04, 2023, 07:50:09 PM
GI, IWUOAN
19  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson: Long Promised Road (Original Motion Picture Soundtrack) on: July 03, 2023, 01:07:15 PM
What the heck is RSD? As a non-native English speaker, I find this overuse of acronyms obnoxious. A Google search resulted in this:

https://www.abbreviations.com/RSD

I guess it is Record Store Day from page 2 of the list, but really, guys...
20  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: New Brian Song coming. on: July 03, 2023, 12:56:24 PM
Heartwarming photo, thanks for posting  it. Smiley
21  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian / Al / Blondie Summer 2015 Tour Thread on: June 30, 2023, 05:41:55 PM
Sorry, double post
22  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian / Al / Blondie Summer 2015 Tour Thread on: June 30, 2023, 05:39:03 PM
Thanks a million for re-sharing this wonderful review, Craig!
Cheers!
Brian, Dennis, & Carl
23  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: John Cowsill Fired on: June 30, 2023, 05:20:18 PM
There is a reason I never posted there, even though I read that board almost daily.
24  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: New Brian Song coming. on: June 27, 2023, 12:43:33 PM
And I'd love (no pun here) to see good old Andy Paley resurface, in any capacity, for this. Whatever the usual naysayers may say, Andy was a great collaborator for Brian.
25  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: New Brian Song coming. on: June 27, 2023, 09:49:21 AM
A new Brian album? Without Joe Thomas, and maybe more involvement by Darian? Would be too good to be true!

With Joe, I'd expect at best another "No Pier Pressure". With Darian, I'd expect anything from the R&R album to something like another "Love You".
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