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680601 Posts in 27601 Topics by 4068 Members - Latest Member: Dae Lims March 29, 2024, 12:43:34 PM
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126  Non Smiley Smile Stuff / General Music Discussion / Re: Thelonious Sphere Monk on: August 11, 2014, 01:02:46 PM
I like vocal jazz but free/improvised music really bores me. Its an academic genre because it lacks immediacy.

Improvised music is the most immediate music of all.  It is literally a response to what's happening right now!  Go and see some live jazz by a good ensemble, especially something that involves some group improvisation in a small venue.  Everything from the response of the crowd to the acoustics of the venue to the emotional state of the musicians can have an impact on what happens, and at its best the audience and musicians can enter into a symbiotic relationship with the best soundtrack on the planet.  Much more immediate than a pop concert with a band on autopilot playing identical-night-after-night arrangements of some songs that they wrote years ago!

NB I love the Beach Boys too.
127  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: New Mike interview... on: August 05, 2014, 04:56:05 AM
Mike was asked a question for which he didn't have an answer and to you that negates my perspective that good questions makes good answers. I guess we will just disagree.

What about my perspective on how well David does it, do you not understand it either because of this one example?

It's certainly possible that David gets good answers out of Mike because he asks good questions.  But then again, maybe David gets good answers out of Mike because Mike knows who David is and is more comfortable talking to him than to someone he's never encountered before.  Or maybe David gets good answers out of Mike because Mike knows that ESQ isn't going to selectively quote or misrepresent him, so he feels able to let his guard down.  Or maybe David just sends him some free hats or something, I don't know.  The point is that there are lots of variables here, and to boil it down to "good questions = good answers" is simplistic.  It also shifts all of the responsibility for how an interview turns out onto the shoulders of the interviewer, which is no more of a reasonable position than plonking all responsibility down on Mike.  It's a two-sided conversation and both parties carry some responsibility for bringing something good to the table.
128  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: New Mike interview... on: August 04, 2014, 03:25:01 PM
So you think one example from one interview makes my general perspective un-understandable?

Do you disagree with my perspective that David Beard does it right and that good questions = good answers or are you saying you do not understand my perspective there either. Help me understand your perspective.

Well, my perspective in this particular instance is that I'm interested in the Big Beat 1963, the copyright issues surrounding it, and the various living Beach Boys' opinions surrounding the release of this material.  Especially since various members of the band have reportedly had (perhaps historical) issues surrounding the release of otherwise unavailable material.  I thought it was an interesting question to ask, and I'd be equally interested to see Brian, Al or Dave asked the same question.  Maybe none of them have thought about it.  Maybe they should be thinking about it.  Maybe it doesn't matter to anyone but me.

But on a wider note, it isn't just one example.  I just pounced upon this example because it was pertinent to the topic of the thread, i.e. the interview that started it.  Mike is not an interviewer's dream, and he is far from being alone among Beach Boys in this respect.
129  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: New Mike interview... on: August 04, 2014, 01:10:03 PM
Hi everyone - I've enjoyed reading the various comments on this thread.  I happen to be the person who did the interview that launched this discussion, and I thought you might like to get my perspective.

Thanks very much for your input!  I found it very interesting, and this element in particular:

Also, I was surprised that he apparently isn't too concerned about the recordings released because of the European Union copyright law.

For reference, here's the question and non-answer:

Quote
JM: This is maybe a bit of a technical question, but you’re probably aware that last year there were some Beach Boys-related recordings released on iTunes, related to the European Union copyright being about to expire. Presumably there will be more coming this year. Do you have any position on those releases?

ML: You know, I really don’t. I haven’t given it any thought.

There are changes in the music industry. When we started, we started with a two-track machine, and then a four-track, then an eight-track, then a 24-track. And now with the advent of the computer and the technology, there are so many different ways to record and to distribute your songs on the internet and stuff. The music business, on the distribution side, barely resembles what it once did. Fortunately for The Beach Boys we’re well known and have a body of work that’s still performed on radio and in motion picture soundtracks, and sometimes in commercials. So we have our original fans, but we have fans of all generations, you know, your generation and younger. Entire families turn out. Like when we do the Ventura fair, we’ll see entire families – grandparents, parents, and children – all enjoying The Beach Boys together.

So we’re in kind of a different category, or echelon, or whatever you want to say. Whatever’s going on in the music business at the moment, we just seem to have our own – I like to call it – sonic oasis. It’s our own kind of world of music that we’ve crafted and created, and it’s still being appreciated to this day.

I thought this was a great example of an interesting question being posed to a Beach Boy.  I have so far managed to avoid any questions being posed to any of the living band members on their opinions of the Big Beat 1963 and related topics (and do forgive me if I've missed a major scoop on this topic, Smiley Smilers, as I don't spend my every living moment on here), and I think it's a fascinating line of discussion, not just for what's already been released but also given the things that are going to be released down the line, assuming no change in EU law.  And so I found it somewhat disappointing that Mike Love apparently has no interest in the topic whatsoever and prefers to burble about various unrelated topics.

It's why I simply can't understand Cam Mott's perspective on the matter:

So Mike can be asked anything and he seems to answer everything so again the problem seems to be the questions.

David does it right. Good questions = good answers

... because here, in the very interview that started the thread, is an example of a good question that yielded a thoroughly useless answer containing nothing relevant.
130  Non Smiley Smile Stuff / General Music Discussion / Re: Big Star- How the heck did I miss out on them? on: July 24, 2014, 11:39:51 AM
Alex wrote all the best songs on those first 2 albums IMO - thirteen, goodo, sept gurls, back of a car

"Back Of A Car" was, despite the writing credits on the sleeve, principally (maybe even wholly) written by Chris Bell.  Numerous sources agree on this, not least Andy Hummel.
131  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: J.S. Bach's influence on Brian on: July 24, 2014, 11:34:06 AM
Hi Theydon -

thanks for your contribution and the links.

I have a hunch that you are the person who could give an excellent recommendation (or two) for clavichord (cembalo) performances of the WTC. And I would be very grateful if you'd do so.

Thank you in advance, the Don.

I would truly love to help but sadly I don't have any of these!  In fact, the only non-piano version of which I have any knowledge is Kenneth Gilbert's version (recorded on a restored 17th century harpsichord), which is very highly regarded:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Well-Tempered-Clavier-Book/dp/B0000057CG/ref=sr_1_12?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1406226330&sr=1-12 (cheaper methods of purchasing this music also exist)
Arguably usage of a harpsichord is no better a solution to the problem posed by the WTC than usage of a piano, but I suspect that Gilbert's interpretation will be satisfying enough to your ears to transcend such concerns.  Hope this helps (even if it doesn't answer your question)!
132  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: J.S. Bach's influence on Brian on: July 24, 2014, 03:02:13 AM
COMMENT:  The key word in this question is "influence." Brian as well as every other person in the western world listens to music via the Well Tempered Scale. This was invented by J.S. Bach.  Therefore, all and I mean ALL music has been directly influenced by J.S. Bach.


I hate to do this since I'm a big fan of your work and your contributions here, but I'm going to have to correct this.  Firstly, Bach did not invent Well Temperament.  The person normally credited with developing this tuning system was Andreas Werckmeister (1645-1706), whose "Werckmeister III" temperament (which he published about in 1691, decades before Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier) was used for tuning pipe organs and is still sometimes used today by period-instrument string ensembles.  Details of the various intervals involved can be found here:
http://www.tonalsoft.com/enc/w/werckmeister.aspx

Some academics (especially Lehman) have argued that Bach developed his own version of Well Temperament, though this idea is based on inferences and is not uncontroversial.  An interesting article on this topic, promoting the theory that Bach used his own tuning:
http://www.bjarne.altervista.org/music/temperament.html

But secondly, even if Bach did invent his own version of Well Temperament, it should be noted that Well Temperament as Bach understood it and Equal Temperament as used today are different things.  So when you say that "every other person in the western world listens to music via the Well Tempered Scale", this is not true.  A good article explaining the difference between the systems and providing details of the different intervals involved can be found here:
http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~mrubinst/tuning/tuning.html

Here's a YouTube video showing the same Bach piece being played using three different tuning systems: the one believed to have been used by Bach, modern Equal Temperament and Werckmeister III:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8M-JzIwbog

I do largely agree though that most Western music after a certain point can point to Bach as a (sometimes distant or indirect) ancestor.  He was the daddy.
133  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brother Re-Issues: Proposed Bonus Tracks on: May 29, 2014, 01:54:35 PM
At least there's "The Big Beat 1972" to look forward to.
134  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brother Re-Issues: Proposed Bonus Tracks on: May 29, 2014, 01:25:36 PM

Alan Boyd: "We also felt a little uncomfortable with the idea of at this point in time of Dennis singing (recites lyrics), “Please God don’t let me die“.

What, 30 years after his death?? If not now - when?

Yes, with due respect to Alan Boyd (whose efforts I appreciate), I can't quite get on board with his objections to this track.  "...plus the fact that the song has been circulating for 25 years factored into our decision to leave it off" also sticks in the craw a little when we're talking about a box set that also contains the mono single mix of "Good Vibrations".
135  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Newly-discovered unreleased Carl track on: April 11, 2014, 01:35:29 PM
I continue to be mystified how/why ALL Beach Boys-related albums (like the Celebration ones we've ben discussing) or singles don't get released in some form or package. There aren't many "bigger" groups in the history of rock & roll. If it were The Beatles...

... then we'd probably all be discussing why there hasn't been an official DVD of "Let It Be" or why Live At The Hollywood Bowl never came out on CD.  I know we're a put-upon bunch, but we shouldn't need to pretend that the grass is absolutely always greener.
136  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian sings McCartney on: April 05, 2014, 04:48:08 AM
I haven't been able to find any track listing that gives details on who sings what, which is a bummer. I'm kind of fascinated to see what Bob Dylan plans to sing.

Reportedly, "Things We Said Today".  (According to various fans who have done some digging.)
137  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Student Demonstration Time on: February 04, 2014, 11:46:17 PM
Here's a case in point.  You yourself mentioned Brian's returning to "Shortenin' Bread" as an example of a musical quote that probably doesn't bear all that much examination.  But what was "Shortenin' Bread" to Brian?  It was a song he remembered from his childhood, music that took him back to a particular time and place, that carried with it certain resonances of the sounds that, to coin a phrase, turned him on as a kid.  Fast forward to That Lucky Old Sun, a semi-autobiographical work, and the riff shows up in a song called, of all things, "Goin' Home"!  Was that a conscious or an unconscious association?  Who knows?  But I'm not going to sit back and dismiss it as meaningless.

People have been doing this sort of analysis on serious art music for a lot longer than the Beach Boys have been around.

Interesting that you have such a comprehensive handle on Brian's addiction to the "SB" riff when, unless my memory is failing (and that's entirely possible), I don't recall him ever saying word one about why he likes it so much. You're assuming, no more.

Sure, it's speculation.  I don't deny that.  Nothing wrong with putting forward theories, and always happy to retract them if evidence to the contrary emerges.

Quote
As for "Goin' Home"... your premise somewhat falls down because Scott wrote the lyrics.

Well, somebody made the association at some point during the song's creation.  And I'm sure Scott has his own set of ideas and associations about "Shortenin' Bread" too, as do we all.  I don't think there's anything wrong with finding this sort of thing interesting!
138  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Student Demonstration Time on: February 04, 2014, 11:07:30 PM
Musical quotes in particular are pregnant with meaning, whether the artists mean for them to be or not!

So... you're investing a song with a meaning that it never had, and which wasn't intended by the composer ? I'd call that shaping the evidence to fit your idee fixee.

Not quite - I'm suggesting that the meaning may not have been consciously intended by the composer.  Unconscious thought processes can be telling, too.

Here's a case in point.  You yourself mentioned Brian's returning to "Shortenin' Bread" as an example of a musical quote that probably doesn't bear all that much examination.  But what was "Shortenin' Bread" to Brian?  It was a song he remembered from his childhood, music that took him back to a particular time and place, that carried with it certain resonances of the sounds that, to coin a phrase, turned him on as a kid.  Fast forward to That Lucky Old Sun, a semi-autobiographical work, and the riff shows up in a song called, of all things, "Goin' Home"!  Was that a conscious or an unconscious association?  Who knows?  But I'm not going to sit back and dismiss it as meaningless.

People have been doing this sort of analysis on serious art music for a lot longer than the Beach Boys have been around.
139  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Student Demonstration Time on: February 04, 2014, 04:14:35 PM
Brian also incorporated "Get A Job" into "Night Blooming Jasmine", and also the "Shortenin' Bread" riff into any number of tracks. I kinda doubt there was any deep thought involved there.

Aww, do you not think this sort of thing is ripe for analysis, then?  How disappointing!  To me, there are few things more interesting than why artists make certain musical choices, and what the results of those choices are.  Musical quotes in particular are pregnant with meaning, whether the artists mean for them to be or not!  To dismiss musical decisions because the artists may not have given them conscious consideration (and, in the case of "Student Demonstration Time", I truly believe that a little more consideration might have been in order) is to miss a trick: the decisions are still important, because they impact on the way in which an audience responds to and interprets the music.

And look at the way in which the audience has responded to this song: reading this thread, there simply isn't a consensus.  And I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb, or overthinking things, if I suggest that the differences between the ways in which forum members have interpreted this song might, at least in part, arise from the sort of weird cognitive dissonance that results from the combination of these specific words with that specific music.  (There may be other reasons for the difference of opinion, like the preconceptions that people may hold regarding the motivations of Mike Love, but I'm trying to extend some benefit of the doubt here.)
140  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Student Demonstration Time on: February 04, 2014, 10:50:29 AM
Of course there's such a thing as overthinking.  No question about it (though if this site isn't a place where one can safely overthink the Beach Boys, I'd like to know what is).  But there's also such a think as underthinking.  I think that setting lyrics describing events in which real people died to the music of a raucous novelty song and expecting people not to find the end result a bit flippant and unsympathetic might be a good example of underthinking.

But why is it that when Brian incorporates musical allusions into his work (like the quotes from "Gee", "The Old Master Painter" etc in Smile), we credit him with enough musical intelligence to understand that these references will evoke particular feelings and provoke particular responses in an audience (and indeed we might conclude that he consciously chose to embed such allusions into his work for precisely this reason), but when Mike utilises music from another source, we simply shrug and say, "Well, it must just have been a song he liked, probably best not to think too much about it"?  Why don't we hold them to the same standards of artistry?

Respectfully submitted.
141  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Student Demonstration Time on: February 03, 2014, 03:32:44 PM
Some quotes from earlier in the thread (anonymised - this isn't meant to be a riposte to anyone in particular):

Quote
I always thought Mike's message was clear, he's condemning the cops that used heavy handed tactics at what was meant to be a peaceful protest.

Quote
Sorry but it is absolutely obvious that the song is a criticism of trigger happy guards. Blatantly.

Quote
I agree, it's clearly critical of over-reaction of authorities.

Case closed, then?  I don't think it is.  And here are some reasons.

I agree that by proclaiming that "we're all fed up with useless wars and racial strife", Mike puts himself firmly on the side of social progress, and "They said the students scared the Guard though the troops were battle-dressed" is a clear denunciation of the Guards' claims.  So yes, it's definitely critical of the authorities; that's a given.  However, if that was the only message that Mike intended for people to take away from the song, then he failed.  After all, he also included the crass "Bachelor of Bullets" line, hardly the most sympathetic lyric ever written, and then the final line ("But next time there's a riot, well, you best stay out of sight") can clearly be interpreted more than one way.  So while we can agree that he's attacking the police / National Guard, his attitude towards the protesters is rather more ambiguous.

But even if you're inclined to dismiss such concerns, the fact remains that "Student Demonstration Time" isn't a manifesto or a poem, it's a song.  And an analysis of the meaning of a song that doesn't engage with its musical content is not any sort of analysis.

Musically, "Student Demonstration Time" makes use of the work of another artist, and to quote from or borrow another artist's work is an act pregnant with meaning.  (Anyone who finds the musical quotes in parts of Smile evocative will surely agree with that.)  So what is the meaning here?  It's notable that Mike didn't choose to rewrite "Blowin' In The Wind" or "We Shall Overcome" or another anthem of social change for his protest song; instead, he set his lyrics to "Riot In Cell Block #9", a novelty R&B song.  To set political lyrics to the tune of a novelty song is not an apolitical act; furthermore, the manner in which "Student Demonstration Time" is executed hardly shies away from the "novelty" angle, with its wisecracking lyrics and shrieking comedy sirens splattered over the top.  And listen to the way Mike sings it!  It's a great vehicle for his voice, and he arguably delivers one of his best ever rock'n'roll vocals, up there with "All I Want To Do": he tears into lines like "The pen is mightier than the sword, but no match for a gun" not with the finger-pointing earnestness of (to pick a pertinent example) Neil Young on "Ohio" but with almost gleeful R&B relish.  Surely that's no way to sound like someone making a serious point - he's enjoying it too much!  And so the musical setting of "Student Demonstration Time" comprehensively undermines any message the lyrics might have had, and Mike must surely have been conscious of that.

(To dig even deeper: If you believe that "Student Demonstration Time" is unambiguously pro-student, consider that in the song it borrows from / invokes, the rioters are prisoners - armed robbers and the like - and thus de facto bad guys.  While it's admittedly pretty unlikely that Mike intended for listeners to draw inferences from that, I'd argue that if you don't want your audience to make unconscious connections between your song and the contents of "Riot In Cell Block #9", there might be better ways of achieving that than rewriting "Riot In Cell Block #9".)

These are reasons why I think that "Student Demonstration Time" sends out mixed messages and leaves Mike's true opinions somewhat murky.  The fact that a number of contributors to this thread have questioned Mike's intentions regarding this song is entirely understandable; they're not misunderstanding it, they're just responding to different aspects of it to the people who can only hear a criticism of the authorities.

(In case it counts for anything: I actually really enjoy this song, and think it gives the Surf's Up album a nice shot in the arm right in the middle, just like "Macbeth" does on John Cale's Paris 1919.)
142  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson's Secret Bedroom Tapes - LA Weekly 1-30-14 on: January 30, 2014, 01:19:05 PM
That article seemed custom-built to push nearly every one of my buttons.
143  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Mastering Error on MIC Disc 3 ? on: December 21, 2013, 03:58:16 AM
Thanks very much to everyone who helped crack this one.  Greatly appreciated.

Those missing two seconds from "Surf's Up" in full:


144  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: MiC in may hands!! Booklet review. on: September 03, 2013, 11:54:07 AM
And, indeed, this colour version of the "arches" photo also has the word "November" legible in the corner, for whatever that might be worth.

145  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: MiC in may hands!! Booklet review. on: September 03, 2013, 11:37:49 AM
Booklet, tracklisting for Disc Three: anyone know where the photo of the boys was taken? Given the limestone pavement they're stood on and the nature of the walls in the valley so deep and wide behind them, I'm guessing it just might have been the Yorkshire Dales during a UK visit but who knows? Anyone?

Edit: found it on line but no further details:



Edit: this is almost certainly from the same day:



Another one with the same clothes:



Given the tartan and bagpipes, I'm getting a strong north of the border vibe.  Somewhere near Glasgow, June 1969?
146  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Happy 71th to the main man! on: June 21, 2013, 04:08:56 PM
Wagner is off wondering why the hell he didn't go with striped shirts. Would've offset the antisemitism.

Wotan, Wotan what went wrong, oh so wrong?

Götterdämmerung only knows.
147  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Unpopular Beach Boys opinions on: June 20, 2013, 01:39:53 PM
"Barbara Ann" is a highly enjoyable piece of pop music.
148  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: MiC up for order on Amazon, August release on: June 20, 2013, 01:38:14 PM
It's a shame no-one asked Joe Public (I'm sure you all know him) what he thought about the box.  He'd probably have wanted "We Got Love" on there.
149  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: TWGMTR - 1 year on... on: June 14, 2013, 02:41:44 PM
That vinyl sequencing... I don't know where the side split is, but if it was after Daybreak that would make it the most single-side-played disc in my collection after John Lennon Live Peace In Toronto (where side two is two extended Yoko tracks).

(Aww man, you should revisit side two.  I've only just got back from watching Yoko tearing up "Don't Worry Kyoko" at the Royal Festival Hall, and it was thrilling as hell.)
150  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Analysis of the Live 50th Anniversary Tour CD on: June 09, 2013, 02:54:54 PM
Besides, don't please me, please who you are responding to.

Responding to this is going to be a curious logical problem.
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