But the" H&V Pt 2 variations" you refer to were not under the Pt. 2 master number, they are under the Pt. 1.  So either those were recorded as part of a reconfigured Pt. 1 and not for side 2 at all, or the master numbers don't indicate whether a piece was destined for Pt. 1 or Pt. 2.

To clarify, I believe the new master number was meant for when Brian scrapped everything and started the whole song from scratch, re-recording  the Verse/Chorus/Fade, NOT indicating a Side A/B.  So thus, yes, the H&V Variations--and by extension the theoretical Side B of the single--were recorded with the same master number. 

Much like how "Like A Rolling Stone" was split over two sides of the original 7" as Part 1 and Part 2, yet had the same master number. 

The theory I've always subscribed to--I think guitarfool posted it--was that Brain finished what he thought was "Heroes and Villains" as the Cantina version on 2/10/67.  He then went back into the studio to record new segments five days later: Prelude To fade, Piano Theme, the "HV Pt2 Variations" (Gee, Part 2 Revised, Sedish Frog, Part 3 and Part 4).  He then returned to the studio again 7 days later and cut a new Verse, a new Chorus (gutted from DYLW) a new Fade and even a new Intro, all as a new master number.

So the theory goes that all the things recorded in between Brian thinking Heroes and Villains was finished on 2/10 and thinking he should scrap it all and start from scratch on 2/27 was destined for the b-side of the single, Heroes and Villains Part 2 (using the same master number).  That would apparently be all the "HV Pt2 Variations", and possibly Prelude to Fade and Piano Ballad somehow worked in (or not). 

And as said before, there was a reel of those pieces collected together with Gee and Part 2 Revised edited together so that the diminished chord was extracted from the end of Gee and connected to a handclap from Part 2 Revised, and Swedish Frog totally gone.  Linette replicated that on the box (if it isn't literally Wilson's test edit) on d4t24 on TSS, from 2:07-4:02.  It's uncertain if all the diminished chords would have been extracted, but imo that 2-minute piece is the closest we have to what Brian may have intended H&V Part 2 as. 

Wow. That section goes back that far. Interesting. Since Mark followed Brian's '66 rough mix for the first box, do we know if Brian ever made a contemporary mix of "Wind Chimes" with that section also included or was the decision to include it more of a 2004 idea?

I would say that ending tag remake from 10/5/66 was dropped and the original "chorus reprises" from 8/3/66 were reinstated in 2004 to  make an exciting performance. 

And a good decision too! I remember how disappointed I was with the 1993 version, like, that's... it? I would have replaced the piano tinkering of the 8/3/66 version with excerpts from the so-called "tag" for the finished version, though. In fact I did for my own pleasure.

I like them both.  I thought the 1993 version was great, with Brian creating this huge juxtaposition with the loud, bombastic "chorus" section, that just abruptly cuts away to a quiet, minimal piano tinkering.  That, to me, was genius for 1966 pop music, even if the cost was an awkward end for a song. 

I had never heard the other "reprise" version until I got a bootleg of the SMiLE performances in 2003, and I was like "Oh neat!"  At the time I didn't know there was a recorded version of that! 

Sonic, I listened to your mix of The Elements based on this.... And it's amazing, but may I suggest aomething if you don't mind?

For Fire, I suggest you add the Fire crackling sounds, to make it more identifiably Fire, and vintage accurate since Brian did the same..

For Air, you could add the Breathing sounds over the piano, with tons of echo/reverb, and apply the Smog Rant over that.

For Water, I suggest you add the Water Sounds Vosse recorded in 1966, and to find them, you'd have to look up "Bob Gordon's Real Trip"

And finally for Earth, I suggest you add the some of the Veggie chants or arguments to make it identifiably "Earth."

Just my 2 cents, man. Sounds great so far.

Hey thanks for the suggestions, as well as listening!   That mix I posted early was simply a 'What If'.  I don't know if I would actually make an Elements like that.  As I said earlier, I'd prefer my Wind Chimes tag in Wind Chimes and my Veges Fade in Veges!  I just thought it was an interesting idea to string together, especially when the commonality between 3 of the 4 pieces was that they were a repetitive two-chord sequence with variations on a melodic theme. 

Those are interesting ideas with the chants and the water sounds, but a while back I was toying with a different way to view The Elements... 'What If' instead of viewing The Elements as a suite of four separate sections for Earth, Wind, Fire and Water, it's one piece that communicates the interaction and relationship between the four classical elements (because that was an important part about the classical elements, how they interact)? 
 
Since part 1 of ILTSDD sounded like rolling rocks and pebbled to me (earth) and Second Day sounded like leaves blowing in the wind (air) and of course ILTSDD to me sounded like water, you could string that whole section together and it's all of earth, air and water interacting with eachother.  So in my most recent revision to my SMiLE I had an Elements with that, sandwiched between Mrs O'Leary's Cow and the Whispering Winds section for good measure, so instead of four distinct sections it's one piece with the four elements interacting with each other.  With this, you do not need to say Wind Chimes/Vege-Tables/IIGS or another separate song on the 12-song list is an Element, it's all self-sufficient.   

Wow. That section goes back that far. Interesting. Since Mark followed Brian's '66 rough mix for the first box, do we know if Brian ever made a contemporary mix of "Wind Chimes" with that section also included or was the decision to include it more of a 2004 idea?

I would say that ending tag remake from 10/5/66 was dropped and the original "chorus reprises" from 8/3/66 were reinstated in 2004 to  make an exciting performance. 

Thanks!

With "Wind Chimes", I'm talking about TSS's main version of it: disc 1, track 16.
I'm referring to the last new section of that version.

Oh oh yeah 8/3/66, the very first SMiLE recording sessions proper (excluding Good Vibrations of course). 

I have a quick question for those who are experts with the dates. Can someone tell me dates and/or origins for the following pieces and stuff?

Cool Cool Water was from 10/67

The Water Chant is unreleased, but is found on the bootlegs Unsurpassed Masters vol 16 (stereo mix) and vol 17 (stereo tracking session).

The mono mix of Wind Chimes on the GV box was done by Mark Linette but he emulated the structure of Brian's rough mono mix from 1966.  

Which part of Wind Chimes are you asking the date for?  What track is it on TSS?

[piano piece]

So...half a song is an Element? That makes no sense.

Well, if each Element was 1 minute long, then they'd be strung together into a 4 minute song.  Mrs O'Leary's Cow itself is only 1:30, and the Wind Chimes tag is 1:14.  Maybe you and I have different conceptions of just what The Elements actually was or supposed to be?  idk.

Why is it tagged as WC then and not the Elements.

idk why is Bicycle Rider tagged Heroes and Villains if it still had the Do You like Worms lyrics in it and was the wrong key?  Why was Who ran The Iron Horse tagged as it was if it was simply the chorus to Cabin Essence? 

Or maybe it was just moved from one track to another, like False Barnshine. 

Ive said it before and Ill say it again: Air, Water and Earth never happened. Never officially worked on, much less finished. That said, Undersea Chant and Breathing represent working versions of them. The way Anderle talks about them, and if I remember right, Vosse, I get the idea theyre linked.

So where's your proof?  Or is this just a hunch? 

But more important, these were unofficial recordings--just Brian playing around with ideas for SMiLE while the band was gone. And, wouldnt you know it, he rerecorded one of them later with them--the water chant. Obviously he didnt do that with Breathing--either because he didnt like the idea or changed his mind or whatever. But doesnt it stand to reason that if we know the water chant fromPS was a working idea, that the air one was too?

Which part specifically of the PS evolved into Water Chant?  I'm not hearing it; PS is more atonal chanting while Water Chant is a bit more musical over a droning E major chord with vocal harmonies.  Or is there a bit of info I'm missing? 

Seriously, its just common sense, and I think you know that but are just being difficult because you want to believe its something else.

See, this is the problem I'm trying to explain to you: You are making the same type of assumptions as I am, but you are labeling your assumptions common sense, yet mine requite burden of proof. 

Also, no, I don't WANT the Wind Chimes tag to be Air.  I prefer it at the end of Wind Chimes, and it doesn't sound right in the middle of The Elements (see the soudn sample I posted a few hours ago).  But in my mind, it's just common sense to know that
1) Brian mentioned Air was a piano piece that was never finished;
2) the SMiLE version of Wind Chimes was not finished because it was remade for Smiley Smile, and it has a specific minimalist piano piece
3) Air = Wind

I know you'll scoff at point 3, but it's the exact same type of logical conclusion you are making with Beathing = Air  (btw it sounds more like the ambient sound at a gym in my opinion.  Maybe the Breathing is actually Earth because it's the sound of exercise?)

Its not that hard to understand why unofficial experiments wouldnt be tracked as The Elements, yet official recordings would--either on the tape boxes, session sheets, studio chatter SOMETHING. It makes perfect sense, and hence why the burden of proof, if you believe the other elements were officially recorded/worked on, is on you.

Is the shuffling of song fragments from one proper track to another "official"? 

Hey, here's a wacky observation. If the piano fade is air, then why was it cut from BWPS AND TSS' versions of the song Wind Chimes? Why go thru the trouble to make a 4-song elements suite including WC and then cut the section that was apparently air according to you?

For the same reason Vege-Tables fade was cut: it was not appropriate for a live performance. 

I'm surprised that you turned to BWPS for evidence here; I guess IIGS and Holidays are also a part of The Elements? 

Im gonna go even further and say if youre really trying to claim Breathing doesnt make you visualize wind, air, breath, etc, then youre lying to make your argument look better by undermining mine. Pure and simple.

I would hope you could keep personal attacks of my character out of this.  I made the assumption we were just politely discussing music here, not attempting to attack me personally. 

Ill have to revisit the article or my post about it, but I recall he talks about Elements and WC at two different points in the article, rather than all at once as youve got it here. In any case, if WC was Air...WHY WOULDNT HE JUST CLARIFY THAT? Thats the big burden of proof that you WC as Air theorists cant seem to hurdle. Its listed seperately on the tracklist from the Elements, unlike Fire, the Elements isnt written on the tape box or called out during studio chatter of WC. You can point to all these vague "well, Vosse mentions WC sorta close to where he mentions the elements" non-arguments you want, but its hardly definitive. It certainly doesnt come close to overriding the proof against it. Plus, I take Anderle's testimony about the chanting sessions he would have them do pretty seriously. Its just hard for me to believe in a short instrumental Fire, a short chanting Water, and then a big fully vocalized and instrumented WC and VT as Air and Earth. Its not consistent, it doesnt flow or give equal weight to all the elements. So not only does the evidence go against this theory but so does common sense. Ive debated this at length with Holy Bee on the TSS board, and my other disagreements can be found there. Anyway, the burden of proof is on the WC advocates; my official position is Air was never made, not officially, but Breathing is almost certainly at least a working idea for it and the closest we'll get.

No, we're saying the ending Tag Remake from 10/5/66 is Air, not the whole Wind Chimes itself.  Just the multitracked pianos. 

Also, burden of proof?  Do you have that for the Breathing sounds as Air? 

Since we'll never know for sure, I just vote with my ears. Does WC make me immediately think "Air!" like Fire makes me think Fire? Not at all. But Breathing certainly does.

Well now we're getting into subjective perceptions of the music itself, something that doesn't require a burden of proof.  What if I think the Wind Chimes tag does sound like Air, but the Breathing doesn't?

Well, none of it was marked Earth or The Elements... 

[and he had a minute and a half tag on it where he took a stand-up tack piano and a grand piano; and, a track at a time, did little music-box overdubs; and then he went in and mixed them with different echoes on different channels into... I've never heard anything like it.."]

- Case for Wind Chimes being related to the Elements at one time:
VOSSE: "Wind Chimes was the first dub off the Smile album that I heard: at that time it was considered a tentatively finished product. He was doing a four part suite called "The Elements," and the fire section of it was all done with percussion instruments. It was like Stravinsky. It was beautifully done, and lasted about two minutes..You've heard all about that thing with the tape and the fire and destroying it.. Well, that happened but it doesn't mean anything. But at the same time he did that, he took the tail end of "Wind Chimes" - which the way it was originally recorded was, again much more beautiful than on Smiley Smile - and he had a minute and a half tag on it where he took a stand-up tack piano and a grand piano; and, a track at a time, did little music-box overdubs; and then he went in and mixed them with different echoes on different channels into... I've never heard anything like it.."

I find it very telling that in context of talking about the Elements, Vosse immediately talks about the TAG to Wind Chimes (a piano piece), acknowledging that at the beginning of the Smile sessions, Wind Chimes was considered "tentatively finished"....but then later, when the Elements came along, Brian all the sudden "took the tail end of WC..." and tinkered with it. Also of note is that Vosse segues the conversation from Wind Chimes right into recording Water sounds. Supporting the WC tag as the referenced "air" element is Brian in Preiss' book saying "there was a cut, an instrumental. We never finished that." But a cut! they at least recorded it.

I think a case can be made that the WC tag was the unfinished instrumental piano piece at one time slated for "air." It may not even be mix we know, which was on the "tentatively finished WC" in August '66, which as Vosse and Brian suggest they were still tinkering with it. Further, a variation of the WC tag did end up being attempted as the HV tag to pt 1, which seems like a salvaging of sorts of "the Elements" after it fell apart. Why would breathing chants be the slated air element if it was reported by multiple sources as being the air element being a recorded piano instrumental?

This is what I was saying earlier.  

What is the major segment of Vege-Tables not included on the April Assembly tape?  The fade.  What if The Vege-Tables Fade = Earth?  

Something like this: http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/DjtTh3wN/file.html

It is still a wonder to me why Brian was recording "Love to Say Dada" around then. Any opinions? Where all those post-February recordings for Heroes where actually dedicated to The Elements? Think about it:

Chimes/Whistle Intro= Opening to Mrs. O' Leary's Fire

All Day = Love to Say Dada = Air = Water?

Sleep a Lot = Vega-Tables

An interesting observation.  But if that was really the case, why not slate them as The Elements (as Mrs O'Leary's Cow was)?  Why slate Chimes as Heroes and Villains intro?  Why slate All Day as Love to Say Dada?  Or it's just coincidence that the last remaining songs were (possibly) associated with The Elements (possibly because The Elements as a concept died in December and these were just segments gutted from it (Chimes, at the very least).  

I'm still not buying All Day = Air.  
When it was called "All Day", it was simply a segment of H&V that would have featured spoken word portions in those breaks (which I believe was the only manifestation of the "comedy" aspect of SMiLE, imo, which was even further reduced to "You're Under Arrest!").  Then it eventually became it's own entity in March and was about a baby (hence the term "dada").  Then by June it had started to become CooL Cool Water...  So was All Day an unfinished piano piece?  not really, it was finished as Cool Cool Water!  If anything, All Day is a contender for the Water Element since it eventually became a song about water, but I will be the first to admit that is wishful thinking and there's no direct evidence of it.

Also I think the "all day" lyric in Whistle In is just coincidence, and a stretch at best.  Sorry.

What I think is really interesting is a theory guitarfool and I mentioned (independently, I swear!) in the other thread... what if the "unfinished piano piece" was the fade to Wind Chimes?  That version was never finished and scrapped for a re-record for Smiley Smile, and Vosse really built that segment up as a great unrealized piece.  Again, no direct evidence, but an interesting thought.  

Also an interesting thought I believe Mujan mentioned in the same thread, that a number of vocal and chant pieces were recorded during the "Psychedelic Sounds" sessions that could reflect an element (Veggie chant for Earth, Water chant for Water, breathing for Air).  What if The Elements was, at one point, entirely a spoken word suite?  

One final 'What If'...  We learned that Vegetables was implicitly identified as the Earth section, right?  The April Assembly tape is lacking the Fade... What if the Vege-Tables Fade was meant for The Elements but the rest was meant for the song Vege-Tables?  

FWIW getting back to the topic, IMO there's a pretty good case for saying I Love To Say Dada may have been intended as "Air", particularly with reference to "part 2 second day" TSS disc 4 track 13.

What do you mean?

The added whistling adds an airyness!

It's also vaguely watery as well...   

FWIW getting back to the topic, IMO there's a pretty good case for saying I Love To Say Dada may have been intended as "Air", particularly with reference to "part 2 second day" TSS disc 4 track 13.

What do you mean?

Seriously though, if you mentioned SMiLE then said to someone about a track "[It] was going to be four songs—in four short pieces—combined together, but we never finished that one." - that's screaming out as a description of what we do know about the Elements is it not?

It is noteworthy that some here believe that Brian misspoke, that the Barnyard Suite he was referencing was in fact The Elements and he was mistaken or remembered incorrectly. 

I am not of that group who believe that, but i thought it's import to state that many people do. 

I like it! 

- Wind Chimes? - like VT, WC is also mentioned separately from the Elements, but the end fade, which sounds suspiciously like the "piano overlay section" described as being part of the Elements

While I agree with you, I just want to clarify that Brian had said Air was an "unfinished piano piece", not specifically the "piano overlay section"; Vosse was the one that was talking about a piano overlay section, in regards to Wind Chimes.  I made the connection earlier in the thread (not the first, I'm sure) but based on a hunch/assumption, not direct quotes or evidence. 

IIGS/The Old Master Painter/Barnyard Suite Connection
- Regarding YWMS' inclusion in HV in May '66..  what's the primary source behind this myth??

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it was Al Kooper who said this. 

Well it's very strange that January Chorus is even included in that master number. 

But idk,. listening to those Master numbers assembled in logical order, doesn't sound like a Part 2 to me, it sounds like a complete rewrite of Part 1... 

Now that I think about it the known sessions for H&V Part 2 ("Side 2") master #57045 consist of an "intro", chorus and new arrangement of the chorus, verses, and "fade out".  Interesting.

Somebody should ask Carol Kaye or Hal Blaine what they have noted for March 2 1967 in their personal session logs (if they haven't been already).

Sooooo.... Something that sounds like this?
http://www48.zippyshare.com/v/GsEfh80Z/file.html

The verse remake for H&V Part 2 ("Side 2") #57045, what is key is Brian wanting to end up?  Has anyone made a file with the key/speed correction Brian is describing?

E major.  Which is bizarre because it's in Db. 

[1)]

Bunch of stray thoughts, probably too many:

1) It's very odd to me that no vintage edits/mixes exist of Heroes & Villains that incorporate anything from the 1/03 session. I feel like there has to be an acetate out there somewhere that is a version of HV assembled after that date but before 1/27, one which is unsatisfactory to Brian and pushes him to hold the 1/27 session from which the Cantina version seems to stem. I'm interested if anyone has a suggested assembly for what this would be? Great Shape is probably out for this version as it appears as it's own track on the December track list.

maybe something like: Verse/Bridge To Indians/Bicycle Rider(1/05)/Mission Pak/Verse(Some early version of children Were Raised?)/Do A Lot/Pickup To Third Verse/Verse/Tag to Part 1? I'm at loss for this version.

We have the "Verse Edit Experiment" from 1/27/67 that concludes with Bridge To Indians, with an EQ filter that sounds like an old transistor radio. 

7) In regards to the Heroes & Villains chants recorded on 2/20: I think they get labelled as different sections or parts too often, when the slates during the sessions refer to them as revisions/versions.

TSS's Part 2 (Gee) is slated as "Part 2, Revised Version", but which Brian refers to simply as Part 2.
TSS's Part 2 Revised is slated as "Part 2, Heroes & Villains, Revised Version" but features the Bicycle Rider music.
TSS's Part 4 is slated (I think) as "Version 4, Part 2" as heard on the boot Archaeology [Lost Smile Sessions] Disc 1 track 28, you hear Chuck call out Version 4, Part 2, Take 2 before a clip of a rehearsal for the background dum dum dums.
I don't think we have a slate for Part 3 (Animals), though my guess is that it would be some variation on Part 2, Revision/Version 3.

It seems like Brian's recording candidates for replacing the old Part 2 (Cantina), and Chuck, knowing that they already have a Part 2 is calling it Revised Version. But in Brian's mind, he's done with Cantina, and sees this as a whole new Part 2 for the HV Side A single. He then tries various versions of that new Part 2 idea which leads to it eventually being called Part 2, Version 4.

So really, Part 2 (Gee) would be New Part 2, Version 1. Part 2 Revised would be New Part 2, Version 2, Part 3 (Animals) would be New Part 2, Version 3, and Part 4 would be New Part 2, Version 4. Unless of course it's for an actual Part 2 (Side B) of a two sided single.

How I (and others) interpret it, Brian felt he had the whole song in the can on 2/10/67 as The Cantina Mix, so the rest of February was devoted to the b-side of the single-- Part 2 (not to be confused with the second part of Part 1).  That is until March 1st, where he scraps everything and starts a new Verse. 

So thus here we are differentiating between Heroes and Villains Part 2 (the second segment of Heroes and Villains, side A, which is Cantina) and Hereos and Villains Part 2 (the b-side of the single, which is Gee, P2 Revised, Animals, Anvil, Hold On, etc). 

But as to what you are saying with Gee, the very first take Brian labels "Heroes and Villains part 2", and proceeds to play the Gee piano part that keeps dissolving into a Gershwin-esque breakdown.  Then tracking Gee proper, it's slated as "Heroes and Villains Part 2, Revised Version"...  What was revised was the piano figure and eliminated the Gershwin breakdown.  Not the entirety of the Cantina section.

...In theory.   But how do we "know"? 

1) We have NO test edits of Verses -> Gee/P2 Revised, that would suggest that they are segments intended to replace Cantina, rather than a set of new recordings for a b-side.  (note we do have a handful of H&V test edits or demos already, so there is precedent)
2) In contrast we DO have a test edit of the Gee and it's variations (the one with the hard edit out of the diminished chord), unconnected to prior versions of H&V
3) For the claim that there is a six minute Heroes and Villains, we'd need to retain both the Cantina AND the Gee Variations and connect them together.

All circumstantial evidence of course, which is why this had been dismissed as myth a decade ago. 

Yeah I read the above conversation but didn't chime in.  imo the Master numbers are, as previously stated, a red herring.  The Gee/Hold On/P2 revised sections--which seem to be the B-side of this single--were the same master #s as the previous H&V proper.  it wasn't till Brian thought to scrap the thing and try again from scratch that it changed.  It was a good idea though. 

I believe that the reason the by all accounts final Cantina mix was rejected was because Brian thought "This song has no real chorus!" and took it and transposed it from DYLW. 

But you also hear the BR fragment on the Jan/Feb Brian lead/Mike "echo" vocal as well, don't you?  maybe they reused the 4 or 8 track tape with the BR edit on it, wiped the original vocals and overdubbed them in June.

Ah-ha!  There it is too!  Must have been the case.  We have no mixes or anything past that point.  Why?  Because there was nothing past that point.  But MAYBE that was what gave Brian the idea for the modulation to the Bicycle Rider chorus? 

There's a "test" edit (assuming it was a test and not for some other reason, like overdubbing onto a previous edit):

Verse instrumental/Verse with backing vocals/after the verse someone (Al?) sings "dit a dit do" i.e going into the a capella bit, but that ends/pause/Bicycle Rider (Worms) with backing vocals from Worms but without the lead from Jan 5th/clean edit into verse instrumental which cuts off into the second time around.

It's unclear if the pause means these are two different edits copied onto the same tape.  My point is the edit BR/verses likely predates the Jan 5th vocal/overdub session - otherwise why not include the vocals - and the Feb 27th remake of the BR theme had already been made and vocal overdubs were done 6/12-6/14, so why not use that edited into the verses, rather than BR?

So we have the edits from the verses into BR (from the vocal sessions on the Brian lead/Mike echo last three words tapes) AND we have an edit of BR into the verses (probably for the 3rd verse and/or a capella section). 

Yep we're talking about the same "test edit".  I guess I interpret it as a June 67 edit since it featured all those recut backing vocals from then.  But I see your point: "Why use BR is they already had the chorus remade?"  And that's true.  Might have been an experiment to see if Brian felt the tone of the two segments matched. 

It is of interest that you can always hear a scrap of Bicycle Rider at the end of the June vocal tracking on the Verse.  But I've always felt that was just a tape remnant on the master (as in Brian was simply taping over that mix/master of Bicycle Rider) since there is a 'tape wow' and Bicycle Rider cuts in abruptly.  If that's the case, maybe that 'tape wow' and fragment of Bicycle Rider that followed on the masters inspired Brian to see what it sounded like if the two segments followed each other? 

Also there's a test edit in circulation of the verse music hard edited into the Bicycle Rider music WITH the backing vocals of the Worms version before the lead was added on Jan 5.

Are you referring to the test edit that runs 1:59, that goes Verse / Bicycle Rider / Verse (instrumental)?

Note the H&V verse backing vocals of that one are from the overdubs done 6/13, so it couldn't have been from January, if that's what you are suggesting.