Regarding point #3, I recall David Anderle stating that they knew what water was gonna be, and they had some idea of what air was. I always believed that air was gonna be some instrumental piece with the Breathing/Moaning Laughing track on top of it (from the Psycodelic Sounds sessions). If we had the water recordings bootlegged, then I'm sure I'd be able to come up with something that was relatively similar to what Brian had in mind. But the next question is how would it be sequenced? We obviously know that Fire was to be part one, and Vega-Tables (Earth) is a good contender for the closer. So then would the Water section come second so it could put out the fire? Or would the Wind section blow the fire away, with the Water section renourishing the ravaged land so life could grow there once again? Personally, I'd go with the latter. So what we have is an Elemental Suite in the form of Fire/Air/Water/Earth, with "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow", "Breathing/Moaning Laughing", "Water Sound Effects", and "Vega-Tables" as the pieces.

The classical elements have a specific order: Fire, Earth, Water, Wind. 



If Brian intended to go in the correct order in classical thought, that's another story! 

Weren't they all recorded in June? 

I guess since the initial WMT was short, and then we have a handful of alternate iterations, my imagination tells me that WMT was always meant to be a simple song made up of different modular variations (just like the H&V's Gee/Part 2/Part 3/ part 4 etc). 

*Although, the Smiley version does regress back to the April VTs in E at the end, so it is possible... 

KInd of like "Can't Wait Too Long" is a series of variations . . . how to put the WMT's together so they all flow one to the other is problematic though. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-INZyQXQwso

Yeah you are technically right, but I guess I'm looking at it in a modular way, in that it was recorded only to be broken up in pieces and then reassembled again.  Since the first two verses remained together before the chorus (which was going to be replaced with the April 7th First Chorus) I just reduced both to one piece, Verse 1. 

Thanks btw.  I thought it disrupted the flow of the song, that slowly winded down.  But judging from the Smiley Smile version, maybe it was supposed to sound jarring.  idk. 

Yeah I am counting the wordless scat and "candy bar" lines as Verse 2, and the "Send us your letter" verse as the third verse.  So yes, as you said, the Ballad Insert rehashes the lyrics in Verse 3.  If we are to believe the Smiley Smile template is the template of how the song should go, it's supposed to be rehashed. 

The organ overdub onto Verse 3 was done on June 3rd at Sound Recorders, live as the mono mix was made (as heard on SOT17). 

Just the initial version which is so short (30 seconds or so) that it seems like it was meant to be part of another song.  Maybe that section was meant to be an "intro" to the longer WMT version?

Wasn't that initial version tracked in June?  The April VT was pretty much dead by then.  If we want to think WMT is a section of Vege-Tables, we need to look at the Smiley Smile VT, which was tracked around the same time.  So while indeed WMT is in the key of E and follows the change and tempo of the middle eight of the April VT, the June VT was slowed down and dropped to the key of D, which WMT doesn't fit into*.  So as I said, anything is possible, but this fact makes it less probable... 

I guess since the initial WMT was short, and then we have a handful of alternate iterations, my imagination tells me that WMT was always meant to be a simple song made up of different modular variations (just like the H&V's Gee/Part 2/Part 3/ part 4 etc). 

*Although, the Smiley version does regress back to the April VTs in E at the end, so it is possible... 

The "Vege-Tables" Soniclovenoize put together in his "1967 Smile" mix works perfectly for me, and "With Me Tonight" is very much its own song.

Hey thanks! 

But where does With Me Tonight fit?  As an insert (WMT 3 above), or a fade (2 or 3)?  Assuming WMT was planned as part of the song in the first place - thematically it doesn't make much sense.

In my opinion, it isn't a part of Vege-Tables.  It is just it's own song for Smiley Smile in which Brian recycled unused Smile ideas into, specifically the backing vocals arrangement for the middle eight of Vege-Tables. 

I know it's logged as Vege-Tables, but it was slated as "With Me" and listening to the session tapes and rehearsals, there's nothing that connects it to VT... 

Realistic?  

I guess the most realistic would be to follow the template of either the April Assembly acetate:
Verse 1
Sleep A Lot (chorus)
Verse 2
Sleep a Lot (chorus)
2nd Chorus

Or it would just literally be the the template of the Smiley Smile version but with April recordings:  
Verse 1
a capella chorus
Part 4 Insert
Ballad Insert
Verse 3

Not too glamorous

He had the na na na melody before it was recorded?  Where can I hear this? 

When did it have the na na na na melody, September?

Look had it in August... 

The section in GV we keep referring to is known as Part D / Fade Sequence. The section was recorded on May 27th 1966.

The vocals or the baking track?  According to the Sessionogrophy, the actual vocals (with the na na na melody) were tracked between 8/24 and 9/1, after Look was tracked on 8/12

Sorry! Didn't mean to confuse. What I meant is Brian assembled the instrumental track of Good Vibes on September 5th. The vocal sessions proceeded afterwards, so no the song wasn't technically finished. I was just trying to prove that Good Vibrations had the "na na na na" melody first.

When did it have the na na na na melody, September?

Look had it in August... 

Nope. Brian mixed the instrumental track of GV on September 5th. If that was the case, then Good Vibrations would go straight to the fade after the organ part. It's a nice theory, but the only problem is that it brings us back to the drawing board and it pulls out that "Brian cannibalized Smile" card.

Not sure what you mean.  If GV was finished in early September, then he could have stolen the melody from Look, which was recorded in August. 

The tag section in Good Vibrations has only two instruments in it: a bass and a tambourine. The Bass starts out by playing F# 4 times, then G#, then A# and then back to G#. The Bass note for the opening section of I Ran is F#. The opening section of I Ran has the exact same tempo as the tag in GV. If you could, you could mute the bass in the tag so only the tambourine plays through, and it matches up perfectly with I Ran's tempo.

Oh wait, I see what you are saying.  The "na na na na na na" melody in Good Vibrations at 3:13 is similar to the glockenspiel melody in Look at :042, and they're both in F#.  That's very interesting.  It still defies reasonable logic that it was intended to be a part of Good Vibrations.  He could have been echoing a melodic theme, or it's just coincidence. 

Or another explanation is that Brian stole that melodic bit from Look and used it in Good Vibrations, since they tracked those vocals on 8/24/66, just twelve days after tracking Look.  That would explain why Look bit the dust for Smile, even after a set of vocals were recorded. 

Brilliant point you made on the title of I Ran! All Brian said was "We have no title". But maybe he said something different on the vocal overdub tapes. But the fact that he wrote a song based off the musical idea introduced in Good Vibrations I think means something. It's an insert piece!

I'm sorry, I'm not hearing the musical similarities between Good Vibrations and Look.  They are in different keys and don't seem to be the same chord sequence at all.  But i think most importantly is that Look is a self contained song with several sections, itself having inserts (or at least an interlude).  It seems odd that an insert piece would have several repeating sections within itself. 

That's like I said earlier with Wonderful and it's inserts. We have 'em, just not the mixes of 'em.

What are you referencing here?  I might have overlooked it but I haven't seen a Wonderful insert aside from the "mamamamama" tag for the Rock Me Henry version (which only appeared in that version rather than the other three versions). 

I believe I Ran was meant as an insert piece to Good Vibrations (which is probably why it was never listed). My theory can be heard here.
https://vimeo.com/182498068
Musically it makes since. Like other Wilson comps, the Bass dictates the change.

Yeah, I listened to your edit earlier.  In my opinion it's possible, but not probable.  They recorded vocals on 10/13/66 for I Ran (formerly Untitled Song #1) three days after the Good Vibrations single was released.  That would mean Brian was still working on Good Vibrations three days after it's release date.  I don't find that probable, but let's play devil's advocate and assume that's what happened--- Well, that's a very interesting factoid, that one of The Beach Boys' most beloved songs and one of the greatest of that decade was still being worked on after it was released.  Surely, that was a story that would have been remembered and told, by anyone close to him?  Also if it's true, why is I Ran subtitled "formerly Untitled Song #1" instead of "formerly Good Vibrations Insert"? 

My test mix example can be found here:
https://vimeo.com/182612766

So in this case, the song Heroes and Villains is only 50 seconds long? 

Bridge to Indians WAS found in a test mix.

No I mean a test mix of Heroes and Villains and Do You Like Worms as one big piece. 

And who cares what Van Dyke said. He didn't even know how Heroes and Villains went until Brian played it for him at the Humble Harv' session. He was as much in the dark about the music as Brian's Entourage was.

Really?

Are we sure that Carl wrote it??

As per the Smile Sessions liner notes:
Tones / Tune X produced and arranged by Carl Wilson
Music by Carl Wilson

I Don't Know produced and arranged by Dennis Wilson
Music by Dennis Wilson

If Carl wrote it, why did Dennis come in earlier and do I Don't Know? And don't reply with "I don't know"

I do not seem to possess the answer you are requesting. 

[MAYBE]

"just because we haven't heard it, doesn't mean it never existed".

Just because we haven't heard it, doesn't mean we should bank on it's existence.

Holidays was found in a box labeled Tune X. Tune X was found in a box labeled Wonderful. I Ran was found in a box labeled Holidays.

So... either they are all connected and it is some vast I Ran the Wonderful Holiday X conspiracy, or someone just misfiled the tapes at some point in the last 50 years. 

Which is more likely?

Also, Do You Like Worms is a part of Heroes and Villains thanks to the Bridge to Indians. Not just Bicycle Rider. Most people misunderstand this. Heroes and Villains was to form some sort of overarching suite that would tie in multiple songs together. H&V would bring in DYLW and DYLW would bring in Cabin Essence, etc. So Bicycle Rider labeled as H&V does not mean that just Bike Rider was absorbed into H&V.

Show me the test mixes of this, and I'll believe it.  Until then, we need to add a big MAYBE to your above claim.  It is reasonable to believe Bridge To Indians was meant to link the chorus that was lifted from Do You Like Worms, because that specific section was embellished as a second part to Heroes and Villains; in contrast it is not reasonable to think it connects to a completely different song because 1) there is no direct evidence of it and 2) we know VDP has stated the album would have been 12 banded tracks, which were not segued into eachother. 

Just because the dots can be connected, doesn't mean they are.  I believe in Occam's Razor: the answer that makes the least amount of assumptions is often the correct one.  While your opinion is valid, I think you are making a lot of assumptions. 

An intro to what though?

Brian is clearly heard stating it's an intro to the album during the tracking sessions. 

This Little Pad Tune X discovery is outa-sight! I'm gonna make a rough vocal guide for Tune X. The only thing we need are the chords for Tune X. Has anyone on the forum ever written chords for Tones? With the chords we can confirm if Tune X became Little Pad. It's ironic that another Smile song (Child Is Father of the Man), was reworked and titled Little Bird. Is there any other Beach Boys songs that start with the word Little? There might be some clues left waiting out there to be discovered.

If Little Pad is Tune X, the only question I have is "Did the original Tones vocals sing about a Little Pad in Hawaii?" Because the instrumentation proves otherwise.

Please excuse my kaleidoscope eyes but...

Tune X seems to be something like
verse - G Dsus4 G Dsus4
prechorus - Em  A  Em C D
chorus - G  G7 C D F G C F G C

Little Pad chords are here http://www.surfermoon.com/tabs/little_pad_uku.html

The Tune X chorus is a common I-IV-V.  The Little Pad chorus is a common I-ii-V.  Similar but different.  Also note that Tune X is credited to Carl but Little Pad to Brian.  

Signs point to unprobable that they are connected...

[At that time]

If you see it that way then you're looking at it through a kaleidoscope.

You mean like this? 

It depends on your definition of "finished".  Were there many different finished versions of things throughout the year?  Or when you step back and look at the bigger picture, was nothing truly finished until the album--Smiley Smile--was completed?   Judging by the nature of this album, how pieces seemed to shift from song to song, I'd have to say that nothing was really finished until Smiley Smile.  Actually, some believe it wasn't even truly finished until 2004!

Take your Vosse quote for example:  "At that time it was considered a tentatively finished product..."  The words "At that time" denotes that it was in a finished state, but then ceased to be.  How can that be?  Something is either finished... or it isn't.  Right? 

Wrong.  It was in a constant state of flux.  It was perhaps in a finished state when Brian compiled a master on 10/5/66 (which we have heard btw, and Linett emulated for the Good Vibrations boxset) of Wind Chimes.  But then the tag  could have been pulled from Wind Chimes to become the Air piece for The Elements, thus making it unfinished.  Similar to how The Old Master Painter was finished, but the fade was pulled to Heroes and Villains, leaving Old Master Painter in an unfinished state.  Similar to how Do You like Worms was finished (minus vocals), but the chorus was pulled to Heroes and Villains, leaving Do You Like Worms in an unfinished state. 

And it did not become finished (in Vosse's mind) until the Smiley Smile version, which is the version of Wind Chimes for nearly everyone else in the world for over 25 years. 

The only problem is, were there vocals recorded over the piano track? And the answer doesn't really matter since Wind Chimes seems to have been finished either way. So yes, the piano tag fits the bill in every category, except the unfinished mark.

Yes that is one way to look at it.  But another way to look at it is that it wasn't finished.  The finished recording was what we hear on Smiley Smile, which the Wind Chimes tag was not a part of. 

I use to think the same way. But I now do honestly believe that Wind Chimes is just Wind Chimes. At the moment, I'm totally 50-50 on it. That unfinished piano piece Brian mentioned is probably the link in Love to Say Dada, the one in between Part 2 & Part 2 (2nd Day). Brian plays the full piece on the Cool, Cool Water Version 2 track on the Smile Sessions Box Set, right after he runs through cool, cool water's verse. I think this piece is where people get the "Country Air was the air section" theory, because the piano section he plays has a bit where I can easily sing "get a breath of that country air". And I can totally understand that. The air version of Love to Say Dada is in the key of G, so is the Country Air verses.

I don't mean all of Wind Chimes, just the tag.   The tag to Wind Chimes fits this description of Air.  It's a piano piece that was never finished (because Wind Chimes was remade from scratch for Smiley Smile), and obviously the connection between air and wind. 

What's also interesting is that this disproves the theory that Wind Chimes is air. Brian finished Wind Chimes. We've just never heard it. So the piano tag in WC is NOT the unfinished piano piece for air.

Not necessarily. 

Sonic, I just read your explanation for your 1967 Smile mix. It's pure gold, makes so PERFECT sense! You must be the Sherlock Holmes of Smile fans, and no irony. Looking forward to listen to the result, it may be the nearest thing to a completed 1967 Smile we can have.

Oh thanks!

The only changes I would have made since then is a three-minute edit of Child is Father of The Man, much like Brian's test edits; and an Elements that used the different takes of Dada spliced together with the three elemental Psychedelic Sounds chants in the breaks of each (instead of just solely 'water' chants). 

Not sure if I'll ever revise my posted mix, but if I did, those are the changes I'd make. 

Would following Our Prayer with 'Worms' be justified? What key is end of Prayer and the beginning of Worms in?

It's always justified if you personally like it. 

BTW Our Prayer ends in A#, which is the resolve (the second chord) of Do You Like Worms.