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680804 Posts in 27616 Topics by 4067 Members - Latest Member: Dae Lims April 24, 2024, 08:56:57 PM
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1  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: FINALLY ! . . . . . . Part Two (suspended) on: October 07, 2018, 11:05:29 PM
At the risk of driving us all insane in an already confusing topic, I'd like to attempt to approach this from a different perspective. It certainly sounded like we were all pointing the finger at Mr. Desper and saying "WRONG!!!!!". Well, we pretty much were.  Grin But I think we all went about this in the wrong way. I think that what the vast majority of us were trying and failing to convey is that what appears to us to be an obvious inaccuracy that can be easily fixed can be hurtful to a person's reputation. This speaks to Mr. Desper's standing in the academic and music field. Mr. Desper, I believe that when we were all pointing out that it seemed quite obvious that you were mistaken, we were all trying to protect you. Admittedly, we all went way beyond what could be seen as the point of "overboard". Instead of being helpful and protective of your reputation, we hurt and most probably humiliated you. I for one am pretty embarrassed and ashamed right now. We obsessive fans are a fickle bunch at best, and a right pain in the ass at our worst.  Mr. Desper, I apologize to you for my part in this whole mess.

Extremely well said. I agree with every word, and the same goes for me. I absolutely apologize to Mr. Desper.
2  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: FINALLY ! . . . . . . Part Two (suspended) on: October 07, 2018, 06:45:42 AM
I'm not sure what's the purpose behind trying to convince Mr. Desper & the other posters who think it's Carl that it's Blondie. Many backed you up, KirkK. You et al think it's Blondie, what else there really? The few who think it's Carl will stand by it as well. If you, as you say, can see reality, why try to make the others see it? I never understood the need in fans helping fellow fans. Bizarre. To me, it matters little who sings that "Sail On Sailor".

Sigh... If someone is writing something to be a scholarly work, the facts need to be correct. The facts MATTER.

I don’t “think” it is Blondie singing on that recording, just like I don’t “think” the year is 2018. I don’t “think” the Earth revolves around the sun. These are all verifiable facts that I know to be true, not a matter of opinion. Getting facts like this wrong throws into question all the other information Mr. Desper provides, and that is an absolute shame. I wish I didn’t care at this point, but this is just driving me nuts and I’m fighting a losing battle to stay out of it! Wink
3  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: FINALLY ! . . . . . . Part Two (suspended) on: October 07, 2018, 06:18:59 AM
Hearing Carl sing SOS in 1996, you might think it’s Blondie. Definitely Carl.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jYZshgP99KI

And here, somebody isolated Blondie’s lead on SOS from Holland.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g2BG0cw3sVU

My conclusion is that it is Carl on Stephen’s tape.

I hate myself for getting sucked into this again as I swore I was done but... argh, here I go again. Listen to what Mr. Desper posted and the isolated Blondie vocal from Holland back to back, or side by side. They're the same thing! You can't say one is Carl and one is Blondie, because they're identical. They aren't different versions, different takes, or anything. They're the exact same recording. I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone or Wonderland at this point that people are actually debating this.

Look, I synced up what Mr. Desper posted and the Holland Sail on Sailor - one is on the right, one is on the left. I did this quick and dirty, so some slight variations in speed and pitch are there (due to one source being from a cassette tape) but you can hear they're the same vocal - Blondie's. This is not debatable people, the evidence is right there.

https://instaud.io/2LPj

If you want to debate the recording history of Sail On Sailor, that's fine; it's murky, and muddled due to fading memories and lack of documentation. But you can't debate who is singing on the final recording - it's Blondie. There is no question about this. If you can't accept that fact, then you are not living in reality, I'm sorry. And listening to an isolated version of that same vocal and deciding it's someone different is farcical.

4  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: FINALLY ! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Part Two on: October 06, 2018, 09:00:28 AM
COMMENT to KirkK:  I think you are making my point. I have a physical tape of Carl singing the lead. I know because I recorded the lead on the multitrack, mixed the cassette from that mulittrack, and have had the cassette mix since the House Studio closed in '71. There's no wondering about it. The cassette exists and has existed before the release of SOS on Holland. Now if you compare the a cappella performance of Carl's in a second-by-second comparison with the vocal on the Holland album, they are very close. I never gave it much thought, that is when I heard the finished SOS from Holland, saying to myself that Blondie delivered a performance vary similar to the one I was use to hearing when we worked on SOS during Surf's Up. But with everyone saying that the cassette is Blondie because it sounds like the album, and I know it's Carl because of the period that I've owed the cassette (and because I made it and have lived with it from the beginning of the song) I've made a more complete comparison -- side-by-side -- and found the cassette and the album sounding the same. So, I cannot help but questioning, what gives?
~swd

With respect, I think it's simply that the cassette you have is not what you think it is. Somewhere in the past 47 years, you may have forgotten something, mislabelled something, or otherwise made some sort of mistake that has now lead you to believe this tape is something that it isn't, which consequently has you questioning things that really aren't a matter of debate. The Holland version is Blondie Chaplin, that is not debatable. I know Blondie's voice, as millions of others do. If you are unable to hear his voice and know it is him, just like you cannot hear that it is Carl Wilson singing the version of "4th of July" you attribute to Dennis, then, as much as I sound like a jerk saying this, you just aren't able to tell the Beach Boys' singing voices apart as well as many fans can (sorry that sounded harsh!) I've outlined historical reasons why this recording can't be what you say it is, and if you want to discount those, you're welcome to. But you cannot discount the recording itself. It's not "close" to the Holland version, or "similar" or "sound the same" - it is 100% exactly the same, lead and backing vocals. I've had the same vocals only recording since at least 2012 on my hard drive in lower quality. I'm happy to send it to you privately if you'd like.

Jack's post above was much more eloquent than I have been (thank you Jack!). I am not trying to pick a fight with you - I can't believe I'm arguing online with you, and apologize for being blunt or rude. I respect everything you have done and am extremely grateful for it, but as Jack said, as a passionate Beach Boys fan, I care about accuracy. And you're simply jumping through hoops making mysteries out of things that are not mysteries. The only mystery is why you've come to believe a tape with the final Holland vocals for "Sail On Sailor" is from 1971.
5  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: FINALLY ! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Part Two on: October 05, 2018, 11:47:30 PM
After listening to SOS a few times, I have to agree with the majority in this thread that it sounds like Blondie singing. Listen to how the word "waters" is sung. You can hear the slight South African accent.  I do hear Carl "answering" some specific words though.

Yep, Carl answers Blondie in the last verse, just like the original. Pull out your copy of Holland and listen to it- they’re the same lead and backing vocals. I’m just confused why so many are debating this or saying these “new” vocals are so different. Listen to them back to back with the Holland version, it’s not a mystery. They’re identical. And if we’re at the point where we’re questioning if it’s even Blondie on the final recording, I just have to accept I live in a different reality from the rest of you guys Wink

We can’t rely on memories of a recording session over actual aural evidence. Memory is fallible, and has a way of changing over time. For example, I’ve seen the band Wilco many times. I have a distinct memory of seeing them perform a particular song at an outdoor show in Nashville. I can still see and hear it in my mind’s eye and ears. But it never happened. I saw them play that song at a theater show in Cincinnati a couple years later, but the two memories have melded together in my brain over time. I only discovered this when I pulled out a recording of that Nashville show to listen to that particular song, and was shocked it wasn’t on there, researched further and found, crap, I was wrong. Now, do I trust my memory, or the recordings from those nights? Obviously the recordings, right?

Same situation. Mr. Desper may remember things one way, such as only Dennis recording “Fourth of July.” But we have a recording that is unquestionably Carl Wilson singing the song. Which do we trust? The recording, or Mr. Desper’s memory? I’ll take the recording.

Not trying to attack anyone, and I sympathize with having unreliable memories. I apologize if I’ve come across too strong.
6  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: FINALLY ! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Part Two on: October 05, 2018, 09:59:11 PM
I respect all the work you did with The Beach Boys, and I agree they can sound like each other, but Dennis and Carl in the early 70s (or in the late 70s for that matter) didn’t sound THAT alike. I’m actually extremely shocked someone with such sound expertise and time spent with The Beach Boys would try to argue this point. It’s clearly Carl on “Fourth of July.” Just as the recording you posted of “Carl” singing “Sail On Sailor” is simply an a cappella mix of the final version with Blondie Chaplin on the lead vocal. I understand you think it’s something different.

I hate to argue with someone who was there, but I trust the evidence of my ears more your memory, which is certainly fallible. You can sync up the recording you posted with the final version, everything is the same. I absolutely apologize if I sound rude, but... I don’t know how else to say it. It’s not Dennis answering the vocals in the last verse as you have written, it’s Carl, just like on the released version (because it IS the released version and I can hear the vocal.) You may indeed have an early version with Carl somewhere in your possession, but it would not be with the final lyrics, and this recording is not that. As I said, Ricky Fataar is the drummer on the final version of “Sail On Sailor” and he wasn’t in the band during “Surf’s Up”’s recording (he didn’t join until after that album was released) so the way you remember just can’t be correct, I’m sorry to say.

While there are some recordings where the lead vocalist is definitely debatable, these recordings are not among those. I read over the link you posted, and for you to suggest that it’s not Blondie on the final recording, well, I can’t argue with that, as now we’re getting into fantasy world Wink

Recording dates and Beach Boys history aside, just listen to the recordings - this isn’t that Brian-or-is-it-Al at the piano in Holland recording that is absolutely debatable (Brian and Al tend to sound more similar I find than Brian, Carl, or Dennis, oddly enough!) It’s Blondie on the final version, we all know and accept that, as we can hear his voice and it’s been Blondie Chaplin’s signature vocal since it was released. And this version you posted is just the final version a capella (and it’s wonderful!) And when “Fourth of July” was released on “Thirty Years Of Good Vibrations” it was credited as Carl on vocals, and you can clearly hear it is Carl, and this is the same version.

Anywho, thanks for all your work regardless of this debate. You did amazing things with The Beach Boys and my life is all the greater for it. I hold your work in the highest regard and am thankful you are interacting with the fans and posting such detailed notes about your recordings.
7  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: FINALLY ! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Part Two on: October 05, 2018, 04:05:50 PM
These recordings are great! But I have to agree with other folks, that's not Carl on "Sail On Sailor", it's Blondie's vocal from the final version (you can even hear Carl still shadowing him on the last verse, just like on the final version, and the two voices are clearly different people... Blondie on lead and Carl answering.) My understanding is that Warner heard Holland (with "We Got Love" rather than "Sail On Sailor") and requested a "single", so the basis for the final track wouldn't have been recorded (and the lyrics not even finished, thus making a lead vocal with the final lyrics present impossible) until after they returned from Holland, right?

Plus Ricky is drumming on the final version, so how could they have cut the track during the Surf’s Up sessions, before he joined the band? I’ve listened a few times and this version of “Sail on Sailor” is just the vocals from the final version, as far as I can hear. The vocals only mix has been booted and this is the same thing, just better quality.

The text in the video also mentions "Dennis's vocal" on "4th of July" but that's Carl singing that one, not Dennis. So there are some small mistakes regarding lead vocal attribution in the video.

I'm not trying to be rude in pointing this out, this is invaluable information and audio. But since this is a scholarly piece, getting the information correct seems important, so I just want to make sure I’m not misunderstanding what’s being presented and want to contribute to its accuracy.

EDIT - I'm a longtime lurker, used to post regularly years and years ago; I hate that my first post in forever is trying to be a smarty pants!
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