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3976  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Were the sections of The Elements ever enumerated? on: May 11, 2011, 11:31:40 AM
Why are we over complicating this

MOC - obviously is Fire
VT - obviously Earth - the song title and the booklet
WC - very likely Air despite what Brian says - the title says it all - plus all those pianos

Water - well probably DaDA - see BWPS for the answer

I don't think suggesting that Brian never got around to recording the Earth and Air sections of The Elements track is complicating anything. I think that's much more convincing than suggesting that Vegetables is Earth and Wind Chimes is Air. If Wind Chimes is "Air" because of the title, then that would make I'm In Great Shape an even likelier candidate as it has "'freshin' air around my head" in the lyric.
3977  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Previously released material on The Smile Sessions? on: May 11, 2011, 11:28:18 AM
If the intention is to use BWPS as a blueprint as stated, then will they be incorporating the "whispering winds" fade from the Smiley version of Wind Chimes?.

Sorry, but was that stated? I keep seeing this again and again, and for me, it doesn't jive with what Linett actually says in the interview. He says:

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If you take Brian's 2004 version as a blueprint, [it will have] all of that music, all of the significant parts and even the little segue ways

What this seems to be suggesting is that instead of saying that we're going to replicate the structure of BWPS, he seems to be saying instead that if you look at BWPS, you will find music that exists from The Smile Sessions and that will all be on the boxset. Now this can mean two things - he is misusing the word "blueprint" or the sentence as a whole isn't coherent. This doesn't necessarily mean that the tracklisting for Disc 1 of the Smile Sessions won't be modelled on BWPS, but I don't think I see good solid evidence of that in what Linett says in this quotation.
3978  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Were the sections of The Elements ever enumerated? on: May 08, 2011, 02:00:33 PM
Lots of good points rockandroll.
The title MOF comes from the Goodbye Surfing article, Brian told Jules Siegel that it would be called that.

I think capitol really jumped the gun printing the sleeves.

Well, like AGD suggests above, they had to print up something assuming that the album would be finished.

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If Brian had finished SMiLE in 1967 the tracklisting on the back may well have been totally incorrect.

I think that the order would have been different on the album itself, certainly. Nevertheless, the track listing is a pretty good indication of where Brian's head was at for Smile in December '66, which was pretty much when his vision for the album reached its climax. After December 15th, the album was largely abandoned.

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Capitol may have printed all new sleeves, and if not I think all future printings would have a revised tracklisting printed on the back to you know, match the actual content of the album.

I don't think they would have wasted the money of making new sleeves. Wasn't there a note about "see the vinyl for correct playing order" or something to that effect? I think they accepted the list knowing that the actual track list on the album wouldn't correlate.

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So maybe on the second printing we'd have:

The Elements:
Mrs. O'leary's Fire
Earth
Air
Water

Maybe. But "Fire" was understood to be simply part of "The Elements" both in its recording and in its listing to Capitol. So my hunch is that "Mrs. O'Leary's Fire" wasn't official at the time despite Brian calling it that in an interview or it may have been the title before Brian conceived of The Elements as a track.

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You say that Fire was americana "in title only", well isn't title important?

Well, ultimately, "Fire" is simply part of a track that has the title The Elements, which I think is important.

Yes, titles are important but I'm simply saying that it doesn't quite fit in with the other tracks in the same way you are suggesting.

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The title pretty clearly places the song in the americana context. Why Brian would introduce this naming convention for only the first part and then simply leave the other three with boring titles like that seems kind of odd.

No one is suggesting that, though. Some people argue that, say, Air is Wind Chimes. Others will argue that Air is something we don't know. I, meanwhile, am suggesting that there was really just one title.

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I think the only reason that we all universally agree the song evokes fire is that the title leaves no question that it is fire. If it wasn't for the title, we'd probably have some people saying that it evoked something different. Maybe most of us would hear fire, but if it wasn't for the title I don't think we'd ever know concretely, I'm sure some fans would argue all types of things about the song.

Maybe, but that's not really to my point. I am comparing Fire to your assertion that "I Wanna Be Around" could be Earth. For MOC, I could see someone saying, "Hey that totally sounds like a fire" and someone else saying, "No, it sounds like a fire engine, not a fire." That would be very likely. But I can't imagine sitting in a room, listening to "I Wanna Be Around" on its own (completely divorced from any known context of The Elements) and someone saying, "This totally sounds like Earth." I can only assume that the follow up would be: "What do you mean?" "Well, it's a cover." "Yeah?" "Well, you know a cover is something durable." "It is?" "Well, sure. It's something you can depend on." "It is?" "In that it's safe. You know, it's been recorded a bunch of times so people know it. It's part of a tradition." "Oh, I see. Wait a minute - why is that like Earth?" "Well, stability is a characteristic of the Earth sign in astrology." "I thought it was sensuality." "Well, that's one of them. But stability is one too." "Oh." "So, it sounds like Earth, doesn't it?" "I guess. If by Earth you really mean stability and therefore every cover of a traditional song sounds like Earth. Then, yes, it sounds like Earth." "Boo ya!"

I am not trying to be silly here. I'm just saying the differences between the two examples are too astronomically different. But it also shows the kind of difficulty that Brian certainly would have had in creating a piece where someone could say: "That sounds like Earth" and someone else would say: "I was just about to say that too!" After all, what the hell does Earth sound like? I couldn't tell ya, but something tells me the same man who wrote Mrs. O'Leary's Fire and the Water Chant could in November 1966.
3979  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Were the sections of The Elements ever enumerated? on: May 08, 2011, 12:20:24 PM


In the early 60s a number of artists recorded I Wanna Be Around, it's a popular song, established, safe, practical. A standard. A popular cover. That sounds like earth doesn't it?

No, not in the same way that Fire sounds like Fire. When I hear Mrs. O'Leary's Cow, I don't need to be told that it's part of an Elements suite, or any contextual information. Nor do I need to know a single solitary thing about astrology, Ancient Greece, Buddhism, etc. The track simply evokes the sounds of Fire to any casual audience in the Western world. The same can be said for the Water Chant, whether it was meant to be part of the Elements or not. I think why so many people are compelled to believe that the Water Chant was Water is because it plays the same aural trick that MOC does.

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In a way, this would be very clever I think. Earth is sturdy, what's sturdier than a cover? Even the lyrics "I wanna be around to pick up the pieces, When somebody breaks your heart" have an air of dependability and reliability, like "you can count on me".

Well, you're specifically thinking about one of the particularly astrological understandings of Earth. In the meantime, you are omitting not only the other astrological meanings, but also all the other cultural assumptions regarding the Earth element. There's nothing about MOC that leads me to believe that Brian was inserting astrological characteristics into the sound of the Elements. Sure you could say that Fire sounds "rebellious" and "angry". But you can also say it sounds like Fire, which would naturally sound angry. Don't forget too that Wilson later said that you could make a track called Fire and have it sound like a candle. So, clearly, he was more about sonically capturing the word, not capturing other words that are associated with that word. Word?

I also don't really think that it's clever because it just requires too much work on the part of the listener in order for it to make sense. Part of Wilson's genius, after all, was making something very complex appear to be not complex at all.

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Lots of people say that the elements were separate from the rest of SMiLE, and didn't really thematically fit in.

Well, if the theme of Smile is experimental music that had not really been heard much in pop music, then it absolutely fits in.

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But Fire clearly snaps into the Americana theme.

In title only, unlike H&V, DYLW, Wonderful, and Cabin Essence. Am I missing anything?

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Do you think a completed Elements would have looked like this?

The Elements
-Mrs. O'leary's Fire (Fire)
-Earth
-Air
-Water

No, I think the elements would have looked like a track called "The Elements", just as it appeared on the note to Capitol. In fact, we know that that is indeed how it would have looked on the album jacket.

Anyway, I'm not too sure on this, but wasn't MOC simply referred to as "Fire" during the Smile sessions?
3980  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Were the sections of The Elements ever enumerated? on: May 08, 2011, 11:13:02 AM
The accuracy and dependability of a single quote from Brian can be debated all day long, but it remains a direct quote from Brian himself.

I suppose if we had never heard the Fire element and he described it as a string and timpani piece, we would be as equally incredulous. In my mind when he says a piano piece, I just imagine some tinkering on a piano, which of course couldn't possibly represent Air. I still find it somewhat improbably, but who knows?
3981  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Were the sections of The Elements ever enumerated? on: May 08, 2011, 08:57:46 AM
To be honest, I put "Air as a piano piece" in the same category as Barnyard Billy and strings on Surf's Up Pt. 2
3982  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Were the sections of The Elements ever enumerated? on: May 08, 2011, 05:42:39 AM
Um.........
Right..

So, you cracked first.
3983  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Were the sections of The Elements ever enumerated? on: May 07, 2011, 05:48:50 PM
The 'Elements' are totally part of America. The four elements are linked with Native Americans.

Well, you could link the concept of elements to most major cultures in history.

Let's not forget that while the lyrical content of the album is often at times offering a counter-narrative on American history and doing so in the style of writers like Poe and Emerson, there is also a fairly significant indebtedness to English Romanticism. "Wind Chimes" is virtually a modern update of Coleridge's "Eolian Harp." In fact, the same poem's description of the "Cot o'ergrown" has a few similarities with Cabinessence. And, of course, "Child is Father of the Man" is a nod to Wordsworth. So, there is more going on here than just Americana.
3984  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Were the sections of The Elements ever enumerated? on: May 06, 2011, 09:18:13 PM
Well, I have no reason to consider Smile to be a concept album. There are certainly thematic concerns but nothing that applies to every track either sonically or lyrically. This was a period for Brian where he was trying to come up with the most creative ideas that simply had not been done in pop music before, such as a religious hymn, a Western, and a Baroque-style conception for a suite, which is The Elements.
3985  Non Smiley Smile Stuff / The Sandbox / Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead on: May 04, 2011, 02:25:38 PM

As I said about infowars - take the Fukushima crisis - If I were to watch nothing but mainstream news I would be at a complete loss about what is going on over there - because for some reason the media wont talk about it. MSM won't talk about the humanitarian crisis in Fallujah for some reason either....which should be HUGE news. I don't buy into most of the conspiracy theories touted on the site - I just go there to get news I would not find on MSM.

"[the MSM] happen to accurately report a lot of information but they do it from an appalling point of view" - however, the media is fairly bias in what they want to cover. Who owns NBC? GE. Does GE want nuclear power to go away? No. Thus NBC won't talk about how Fukushima is filling the ocean/air with deadly amounts of radiation....because it would probably create a lot of rightful backlash towards nuclear-power. This same thing happened with Toyota a while back - a few cars had brake malfunctions and for weeks I watched NBC/CBS/ABC lambast Toyota for it. The Ford F-150 currently has a recall for malfunctions with airbag deployment - and I've heard nothing about it on the MSM.

Granted, not every media organization is owned by an industrial-powered company....but many of the Big Six have fingers in many pies. My point is that it is good to get news from multiple sources - lest we're not being told the whole story.

I absolutely agree. In fact, I would go one further and say that it is not simply a matter of being "owned by an industrial-powered company". Yes, that's a problem but an even more pressing concern is that all mainstream media is corporate controlled. Consequently, you're not going to get information in a way that threatens the legitimacy of corporate power. This is why, for example, mainstream newspapers have a Business section but they don't have a Labor section - or why 60 minute news programs devote time to stocks, the dollar, etc. but no time whatsoever to pressing working class concerns such as wages, or the growing disparity between the rich and the poor.

Because the news is owned in this way, we often get a lot of information but it is given in a particular way. So, for example, in the earliest days of the Iraq invasion, US forces bombed a hospital in Fallujah. The New York Times reported on it immediately - they certainly weren't hiding anything. With that in mind, though, neither the Times or any mainstream US source who reported on the incident (and most did) noted that this constituted a very serious war crime. To be perfectly honest, I would bet that most of the reporters didn't even know it was or, at least, wouldn't even allow themselves to entertain the thought. And the reason is simple: if someone else does it, it's a crime. If we do it, it's fine, because we have the right to do it. This is, quite simply, the unquestioned assumption that is made in every imperial and powerful state since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. So, yes, lots of information is given but it is given from an appalling point of view.

Now, why isn't NBC reporting on Fukushima anymore? It could be because of the points you raised about nuclear power but, to be honest, I'm skeptical. There are lots of ways to report on the matter that would divorce the story from the kinds of political implications you mention. And, in fact, if this were completely true, NBC would have never reported on the story in the substantial way that they did in the first place. In fact, Fukushima has dropped off the radar for all mainstream media and they don't all have the same interest. My gut reaction (of course, I haven't quite considered this long enough to form a solid argument) is that the Fukushima story is a victim of the mainstream media packaging news like it's entertainment and, consequently, very few stories have a long shelf life unless they can be spun into a narrative with colourful characters, like the OJ Trial. The decision to turn the media into entertainment is very much politically motivated, of course because it stresses stories over analysis and, once you do that, corporate power (which doesn't stand up well to analysis) can hardly ever be challenged.
3986  Non Smiley Smile Stuff / The Sandbox / Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead on: May 04, 2011, 12:57:59 PM


In regards to the first paragraph, I'd also add that there is no real "right wing" party either - right wingers are people who want smaller government and less spending

Well, that's not quite correct. I mean, yes, maybe some people who identify themselves as right wing (particularly in the United States, I would imagine) would say that they are in favor of a small government but that's not really what identifies the right on the political spectrum. If anything, government gets smaller the further to the left you go. The ultimate goal of Marxism and anarchism is to abolish state power completely. Ultimately the right stands for private power and if that means letting private power do what it wants, then they are non-invasive but if that means private power needs to be protected, then they are very much invasive. This is why someone like Bush spent so much money - because he was fulfilling his role on the right of protecting private power by invading two countries to control their resources on behalf of corporate interests. The terms "left" and "right" typically signify economic distinctions and there can be both big and small governments on either side. To be honest, it is somewhat a consequence of US ideology that has led to the right being misrecognized as the party of small government.

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Relatively, every news source is designed as a distraction (whether sensationalist journalism to sell more ads, whether it's sensationalist journalism to sell us a political candidate) - every news site out there has an agenda

OK, but that's not what I mean when I use the word distraction. I'm suggesting that "infowars" have a tendency of wading into conspiracy theories which do nothing but distract the population and serve to reinforce powerful interests.

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- which is why I go to far-right sites, far-left sites, pro-America sites, anti-American-policy sites - and deduce what I can from what I read.

To be honest, I don't quite agree that getting a wide range of information is necessarily helpful in coming to conclusions about issues. Yes, it is important to be well-informed but as an example (and, this is just to make my point on this clear, you may agree with me on this) I don't think it is particularly helpful to read an article about the dangers of global warming followed by an article that insists that global warming is not a man-made phenomenon. Yes, I believe both stories should exist and I wouldn't censor one, but I don't think I'm being particularly better informed nor do I feel I am better able to make a decision about the issue by reading both.

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May I ask you where you get your news from?

Because of the nature of my job, I have the luxury of reading a lot of scholarly articles that deal with contemporary politics.

In fact, I mostly read mainstream news. They happen to accurately report a lot of information but they do it from an appalling point of view. If one has the time to actually educate themselves on politics (my leanings towards anarcho-syndicalism is a consequence of having read a lot of Bakunin, Kropotkin, and Chomsky) then you can engage critically with what you are reading.
3987  Non Smiley Smile Stuff / General Music Discussion / Re: What are you listening to? on: May 04, 2011, 11:05:14 AM
John The Wolfking Of L.A, by John Phillips. Classy 70's country rock, which is my new crack these days.

Beautiful, beautiful album.
3988  Non Smiley Smile Stuff / The Sandbox / Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead on: May 04, 2011, 11:02:25 AM

The Right and Left are two sides of the same coin.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying except I would qualify the above statement and suggest that the Left is not on the "same coin" as the right, in the United States. Rather, there is no left at the political level whatsoever, after years of  being de-legitimized and decimated. At one point in the US there was actually a Socialist Party of America, which itself was an amalgam of two left-of-centre political organizations. The party had a considerable degree of popularity. Today, it would be unthinkable to run as a Socialist and believe you had that capability of getting a million votes. So because the actual left has been destroyed in the US, the Democrats function as "the left" because, as a centre-right party, they represent the farthest you can go to left in the US that is acceptable.

I am also skeptical of your suggestion that infowars is a "decent news source" when it typically acts as an industrialized distraction machine which serves the interests of the powerful just as much as your mainstream news outlets.
3989  Non Smiley Smile Stuff / The Sandbox / Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead on: May 03, 2011, 05:36:13 PM
Well, It seems very apparent that you don't like me.  I definitely think your a dick-head.

Honestly? I don't know who you are nor do I know a single thing about you personally. This is why I have never uttered a single word about you and instead have critiqued your ideas. The distinction that I make is clearly something you have yet to learn yourself.
3990  Non Smiley Smile Stuff / General Music Discussion / Re: Favorite instrumentals on: May 03, 2011, 05:16:11 PM
Almost Grown and Ogden's Nut Gone Flake by The Small Faces
3991  Non Smiley Smile Stuff / The Sandbox / Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead on: May 03, 2011, 05:12:59 PM
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And as long as people say that humans will never be at peace then that stupidly justifies our right to continue the killing

Agreed. Saying there has always been war and there has always been killing is hardly evidence to excuse it from happening nor does it say anything about whether it will continue to happen. You could have said the same thing about slavery. You could have said the same thing about excluding women from the public sphere.

If there is really one constant in human history, it is man's capacity to change.
3992  Non Smiley Smile Stuff / The Sandbox / Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead on: May 03, 2011, 04:05:32 PM
Bite me!

Well, you sure showed me.
3993  Non Smiley Smile Stuff / The Sandbox / Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead on: May 03, 2011, 09:47:32 AM
Thank you very much for trying to tell me what to think and believe. You will not change my mind no matter what you spout off.

Being proud of being irrational is not a virtue.
3994  Non Smiley Smile Stuff / General Music Discussion / Re: Gather round, children! Liam Gallagher's back! on: April 28, 2011, 08:34:05 AM
So far it's looking like Oasis is going down better historically than Radiohead, which suits my tastes. Radiohead were always as pompous as Oasis, they just wouldn't admit to it.
3995  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The Smile Sessions - A Game of Speculation on: April 27, 2011, 06:47:00 PM

Wind Chimes - 1966 lead vocal by Carl


Isn't the "official" 1966 Wind Chimes that we have already sung by Carl?

Really?  I thought it was Brian.  Okay, well, then I guess I'm even more confident in my prediction on that one!!

Confession:

I always assumed it was Brian too. I think that I figured it was just Brian when I first heard the song when I wasn't as clear on the vocal distinctions. A few weeks ago though I was listening to it and thought...hang on, that's Carl. Then I checked the vocal list here and it was confirmed.
3996  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The Smile Sessions - A Game of Speculation on: April 27, 2011, 06:06:22 PM

Wind Chimes - 1966 lead vocal by Carl


Isn't the "official" 1966 Wind Chimes that we have already sung by Carl?
3997  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Barnyard on: April 27, 2011, 11:04:05 AM


I think the reason there's no lead vocal on that track is because the "Barnyard" lyrics that Brian is singing on the "Humble Harv" demo were not originally conceived to go with that track.

I think those lyrics were written for the track that closes the "Cantina" version of "Heroes And Villains"

We'll find out on July 12, 2011 if that's correct or not!

As always, all musings are IMHO  Smiley

I disagree. The Cantina version coda just doesn't work for Barnyard for tempo and chord changes. I think, though, that the most damning evidence against your theory is the "Let's hear the animals!" that Brian yells out that we indeed hear in the Barnyard backing. I don't think there's much speculation on this matter.
3998  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE Sessions box set! on: April 27, 2011, 09:49:33 AM
Damn straight.
3999  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE Sessions box set! on: April 27, 2011, 09:41:51 AM

You're probably right -- but I still find it a strange thing to say.  Akin to saying he's stumbled upon a bunch of Picasso's that have never ever been seen. 

Except he doesn't say anything like that. Here is the section of the interview in question:

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"Smile" is one of the most bootlegged albums of all time. What will be new for the listener?

For most of them, the whole thing will be new. The Beach Boys have an enormous amount of material from their whole career and [since] we have been actively doing an archive project for about 10 years, there are things that we have discovered that the bootleggers missed.

And the other important thing is bootleggers tend to present every single take... We are obviously going to use the best versions and there are things that we can do that was just technologically impossible when those bootlegs were made in the 1980's.

Mark here appears to be distinguishing between "the listener" and the "bootlegger". Yes, there are things that the bootlegger has missed, so there will be new stuff. That being said, the bootlegger has presented excessive amounts of music which will be edited down. So, if anything, there will mostly be a reduction of things that the fans of the bootlegs have heard.
4000  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Barnyard on: April 27, 2011, 09:10:18 AM
Yeah, Mike would sing it nicely too; though I love Brian's voice on the demo.

Agreed. To borrow an old cliche, Brian could sing the phone book and make it sound beautiful.

Notice though that the vocal for Barnyard is in a lower register and doesn't contain any of the difficult high parts of something like I'm in Great Shape. Couple that with the fact that there really weren't very many meaty vocals for Mike on the album, and I think this one would have gone to him. He seems like he could play the role of the man on the farm quite well too.
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