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655343 Posts in 26183 Topics by 3725 Members - Latest Member: suitable_rasberry February 21, 2020, 11:28:32 AM
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76  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Feel Flows box set on: November 17, 2019, 04:04:50 PM
Al Jardine having memory recall issues ?! I’m shocked  Grin  Seriously though great news. I’d think Al would remember the Carnegie Hall concert.

Yeah...especially considering there were several! ('71, '72, '73)….
77  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series on: November 15, 2019, 11:10:28 AM
How about the piano on "Sloop John B."? Not saying at all that it might be taped, but that one's so distant (probably not close-mic'd) and swamped in room ambience, that I've gone back-and-forth as to whether it's an upright tack or a normal baby grand.
78  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series on: November 15, 2019, 09:45:12 AM
Does anyone know when Brian's first use of taped strings on a piano was? That's a really important sound in the Pet Sounds and Smile era. It sounds to me like it was almost always applied to an upright (and a tacked upright once or twice), but there are a couple of later examples on Aren't You Glad and Cool Cool Water where it's clear he did the same thing with his Chickering grand. The Fender Rhodes and Baldwin electric harpsichord at Columbia and Sound Recorders are worth noting for experiments at other studios.

The keyboard selection explodes in the home studio era, which is imo one of the most interesting aspects of the production style in those years. Baldwin, Hammond and Farfisa organs, electric harpsichord, Clavinet, Roxichord, Rhodes, Wurlitzer, detuned grand piano, tack piano, keyboard glockenspiel, toy piano, harmonium, Chamberlin, Moog, pipe organ... and probably 200 others I forgot.

What do you make of the piano sound on "Trombone Dixie"? Could that be the honky-tonk tuned tack piano borrowed from Sunset Sound? And/or does it sound like its strings are taped? Otherwise, I would say "I'm Waiting For The Day" and "God Only Knows" (cut within four days of one another) would be Brian's first uses of the taped piano string sound, and to me it sounds like it's a tack piano that's been treated with tape - you hear the "clicky" attack of tacks, but the decay is choked off and the sound overall is softer, so I don't think it's just a case of using the damper pedal.

Jumping ahead a few years to the house studio era, it seems that on "All This Is That", Carl used an RMI Electra-piano for those single-line electric piano parts, while using a Wurly for the main chord vamping part. So that's another instrument to add to that later list!
79  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series on: November 13, 2019, 11:29:39 AM
Here's another idea - the keyboards on "Help Me, Rhonda" (the single/Summer Days version)...

The track sheet includes notations for "elect piano" and "Hohner”, indicating two different electric keyboards were used, in addition to an acoustic piano. The most commonly used types of electric piano in those days were the Wurlitzer and two models of Hohner - the Pianet and the Cembalet. Since "elect piano" is designated as such, I'm guessing that would have been a Wurlitzer (and I do hear a "whirring" kind of keyboard sound in there, which to me is indicitive of the Wurly). But which model of Hohner do we think was employed? Electric piano really wasn't used much on Beach Boys recordings at the time, and in fact, this might be the earliest example. The tonal difference of the Cembalet and the Pianet (they were introduced by Hohner in that order, however they were both produced and sold into the '70s) may be slight, but possibly a finely-tuned ear could discern the identity used here? I'm not suggesting you buy or rent either or both, 'cause there are demo recordings out there on the 'net that may aid in the discernment, and I'm sure there are patches or plugins available for download/installation and playing of the actual parts!

The two electric keyboards were recorded together on one track, and the acoustic piano on another, so we have a bit of separation on the basic track recording, but since the two electrics are locked together on one track (with, I might add, the saxophones and Billy Strange's electric guitar), ID'ing the specific kinds might be a bit of a challenge.





80  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series on: November 13, 2019, 09:28:09 AM
I've filmed another sort of filler program,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UeP0dXHS14

It's about figuring out what is playing on records, with a short example.

Be sure to like and subscribe so I don't have to bug you every time I post a video!





Great job!
81  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Pro Shot Beach Boys Concerts on: November 12, 2019, 03:30:20 AM
Anyone know what the deal is with the August 1972 concert in Boston?  If it was pro shot, why hasn't it been released?  I don't know if I have ever seen footage from it.  Looking at the set list, I would love to see that show in its entirety.

I seriously doubt it was pro-shot in its entirety - more likely, a little bit of footage was shot for the local TV news.
82  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series on: November 11, 2019, 10:01:38 AM
Well, in the short but thick "Making Of Pet Sounds" booklet included in the Capitol box set, Hal gets pretty specific: he talks about the orange-juice bottle percussion: "There were the 'famous' orange bottles. We used to drink orange juice out of the vending machines. I took three of these small six or eight ounce plastic orange drink bottles, and I cut them down to three different sizes in length. And I taped 'em together, and I used a little vibraphone mallet. Brian loved that kind of stuff. Just different sounds."
83  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series on: November 11, 2019, 08:20:00 AM
Thanks!

And I also think that tuned percussion (and exotic percussion in general) is a great idea for a show.  No lack of interesting uses of Marimba, Vibes, Xylophone, Glock, etc. 

Not to mention temple blocks...which may not technically fall in the category of tuned percussion, however I think the argument can be made that in Brian's case, they do - along with the plastic orange juice cups - 'cause of they way he uses them (two tones, or more, in the case of "GOK").

It was the temple blocks in "IJWMFTT" that gave me the idea! I still swear the second note in that sequence is two played simultaneously...


OK, so let's talk "found percussion" since it's been brought up.

When we talk about orange juice containers on GOK, are we talking about cartons?  Believe it or not, I have researched how orange juice was sold over the decades, and it seems to me that commercially available potables were not sold in plastic containers before the early 70s.  Does this jibe with people's memories?

Along those lines, would the Sparklett's jug for Caroline No have indeed been glass?

Folks, this is what keeps me up nights.  And with your contributions, I might be able to track down some period appropriate orange juice containers, sparkletts jugs, and coke cans to use on an episode!!!


Interesting questions!  There's an NPR interview with Hal - it may still be available in their archive - where he talks about the plastic orange juice cups, and IIRC, he said they came from a vending machine. He cut them at different lengths to get the desired pitches (and obviously allowed Jim Gordon to play them on "GOK", since he was occupied with the sleighbells and drum kit on that session). So maybe you could only get cartons in the store at the time, but if  you bought them from  a machine, they came in plastic?

Regarding Sparkletts, Dennis once described (to Timothy White in Crawdaddy, IIRC) carrying a glass Sparkletts jug in the backyard while stoned, and dropping it on his foot. He cut the tendon in his foot, requiring stiches, after which his toes only moved in tandem (Dennis should not have been allowed around glass while drunk/stoned, especially after slicing his forearm up good in '71 - the accident that resulted in a temporary inability to play the drums!). Presumably, this backyard accident was in the mid-'70s, and the Sparkletts jug was glass. Plus, Brian played a Sparkletts jug with a mallet for the percussion on "Take A Load Off Your Feet" a few years earlier, and that was said to be glass (the 5-gallon variety, to be exact). Therefore, I would lean toward the Sparkletts sound on "Caroline, No" emanating from a glass jug, too!
84  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series on: November 09, 2019, 09:59:17 PM
Thanks!

And I also think that tuned percussion (and exotic percussion in general) is a great idea for a show.  No lack of interesting uses of Marimba, Vibes, Xylophone, Glock, etc. 

Not to mention temple blocks...which may not technically fall in the category of tuned percussion, however I think the argument can be made that in Brian's case, they do - along with the plastic orange juice cups - 'cause of they way he uses them (two tones, or more, in the case of "GOK").
85  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: I want to start a \ on: November 08, 2019, 12:30:04 PM
The guitars on "Let Him Run Wild"...
86  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Any footage/pics of Brian on Drums? on: November 05, 2019, 10:12:59 AM
Someone (maybe Emdeeh?) has posted an onstage photo of the Boys with Brian on drums, and Denny on the lead mic.
87  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Any photos of So Tough full lineup? Carl, Al,Brian,Dennis, Ricky,Blondie, Mike? on: November 02, 2019, 07:19:37 AM
There are also a few photos of the full early '72 lineup (minus Brian, of course) onstage at Carnegie Hall in March of that year...I've seen them in the pages of ESQ, and I believe here, as well.
88  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Ray Pohlman's 57 Fender Bass on: November 01, 2019, 10:48:38 PM
Yep, Al used a pick on the Fender bass each time, to the best of my knowledge. "Don't Worry Baby" is a great example, where it sounds every bit as growly as Carol Kaye's Fender bass/pick performance on "Please Let Me Wonder" or "Sloop John B." One interesting tidbit, though, is that Brian - while rarely if ever using an actual pick - actually did use his thumbnail to get a "pick" sound on a few things (Bruce told me that once, in person, when we were discussing Brian's approach to the bass).

89  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Ray Pohlman's 57 Fender Bass on: October 31, 2019, 12:02:59 PM
Nice! Your 10-20 minutes spent searching for photos certainly paid off yesterday. Wink

It very occasionally does pay off.

Cool to see the wear spot where the anodized layer of aluminum is worn away from where Ray's hand sat.  It's funny, because on the Beach Boys tracks he plays on, he is nearly always using a pick and a heavy palm muted sound, but when left to his own devices, Ray preferred to play with his thumb, not unlike Brian, thus the wear underneath the strings where he would anchor his hand.

God, he was a monster when playing that thing with a pick! So many people assume his rapid-fire bass playing on "Here Today" or the slower, deliberate picking on "IJWMFTT" was on a 6-string bass, but it was actually this Fender 4-string!

I am only 95% convinced it's not Dano 6-string on IJWMFTT.  There's something about the tone quality of the lower notes when he's doubling Chuck Berghofer (rather than the high stuff) that sounds a lot like the sort of loose-string, short-scale honk of a 6-string bass.  That's a sound I've never been able to get on a Fender.

Good fodder for a video!

Speaking of that...what do you make of the bass sound on "Warmth Of The Sun" and "Hushabye"?  To me, those almost sound like the Dano 6-string...that kind of loose sound, where you can kind of hear the frets...I wouldn't call it fret buzz, exactly, but you know what I mean?
90  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Ray Pohlman's 57 Fender Bass on: October 31, 2019, 09:37:18 AM
Nice! Your 10-20 minutes spent searching for photos certainly paid off yesterday. Wink

It very occasionally does pay off.

Cool to see the wear spot where the anodized layer of aluminum is worn away from where Ray's hand sat.  It's funny, because on the Beach Boys tracks he plays on, he is nearly always using a pick and a heavy palm muted sound, but when left to his own devices, Ray preferred to play with his thumb, not unlike Brian, thus the wear underneath the strings where he would anchor his hand.

God, he was a monster when playing that thing with a pick! So many people assume his rapid-fire bass playing on "Here Today" or the slower, deliberate picking on "IJWMFTT" was on a 6-string bass, but it was actually this Fender 4-string!
91  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Ray Pohlman's 57 Fender Bass on: October 31, 2019, 09:06:31 AM
So great to see legendary instruments like this and the Barney Kessel mando-guitar...so great to know they still exist and are accounted for these many decades later!
92  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens... on: October 29, 2019, 09:36:21 AM
Don't forget the photos of Guy Webster! Between Guy and Jasper, they really did document a lot of studio sessions (and musicians in general), and sadly we've only seen a small portion of what these two photogs documented, especially from 66 to 68. Sad in many ways.

But hell, there is roughly 45-50 minutes of 1966 Good Vibrations studio session footage that exists and 99% of fans who would love to see it have only seen 5 minutes of it.

*THAT* is not right, but I digress.

I wish all the great studio shots from Guy and Jasper were captioned with the song title, or at least the date...but, at least we have what we have.
93  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Barney Kessel WIBN Mandolin Found AND Sold Nov 10th...But the mystery deepens... on: October 25, 2019, 08:56:41 AM
wait wait wait I do not not know---- Kessel plays manolin on Wouldnt it be nice? what are his other known BB session contributions?

big fan of him and i knew he played every now and then with wrecking crew, right- but i didnt know the extent to his BB session involvent. but i have all his solo albums on conteporary n stuff

He played on a fair bit of Pet Sounds and some other stuff--

Little Girl I once knew - Dano bass
WIBN
YSBIM
LGAFA
IKTAA
IJWMFTT
Caroline, No
Trombone Dixie

Possibly on some Smile stuff--that's not my personnel wheelhouse...and possibly some earlier stuff, that I can't think of for sure off the top of my head.






Yep...earlier stuff includes two Today! tracks:
PLEASE LET ME WONDER
KISS ME BABY
two tracks on Summer Days:
the second version of HELP ME, RHONDA
LET HIM RUN WILD

...and he's also on one SMiLE track:
LOOK (aka SONG FOR CHILDREN)

Since this is news to you, you may be interested in knowing that Howard Roberts, another noted jazz guitarist, also played on a handful of Beach Boys tracks.



94  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Revisiting the Sloop John Billy Strange guitar gift story on: October 23, 2019, 12:56:44 PM
Also, what do we think the first overdub....is?  Did he just double the exact part from the basic track?  And then added the higher part six months later?

Yeah, the first overdub was a double of the original 12-string part, and the second overdub is the same part played a third interval higher.

Truly, GREAT find on that youtube vid!  Helps clear up the mystery - apparently Billy merged his memory of Brian giving him the Gibson 12-string with this memory of overdubbing "Sloop" with a Mosrite 12!
95  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Revisiting the Sloop John Billy Strange guitar gift story on: October 23, 2019, 11:23:43 AM
Where do the alternate vocals fit into this? The ones with Carl on the first verse, Brian and Carl harmonising on the first chorus, then Mike on the second verse before stopping. Those seem to have been added on a separate tape before either of the guitar overdubs were recorded.

Yeah...the common assumption is that those were recorded shortly after the July tracking session, before work on the song was temporarily abandoned.

Ah, that makes sense. So those would probably be on 3-track rather than 4 around the same time as Brian's guide vocals?

Right.
96  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Revisiting the Sloop John Billy Strange guitar gift story on: October 23, 2019, 10:55:38 AM
Where do the alternate vocals fit into this? The ones with Carl on the first verse, Brian and Carl harmonising on the first chorus, then Mike on the second verse before stopping. Those seem to have been added on a separate tape before either of the guitar overdubs were recorded.

Yeah...the common assumption is that those were recorded shortly after the July tracking session, before work on the song was temporarily abandoned.
97  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Revisiting the Sloop John Billy Strange guitar gift story on: October 23, 2019, 10:30:57 AM
And just to add a little perspective to the known date of the 12-string overdub session...as I put it in my Pet Sounds essay (at www.beachboysarchives.com):

NOTE: despite the session date of 12/29 appearing on the AFM guitar overdub contract, the first guitar overdub was clearly done simultaneously with dubdown A, as evidenced by the multiple takes made during the process (takes 1A-5A), and the date of 12/22 is inscribed on the tape box track sheet from that session (sessionman Billy Strange later recalled that his second guitar overdub was done immediately after the first, on the same day). Vocals were also added on that date, and probably on 12/29 (onto dubdown 1B) as well - so it would seem that the AFM contract for the 12/22 guitar overdub session wasn't drawn up until the 12/29 vocal session, and the then-current date was simply used.

And, guitarfool2000, didn't you once mention on a similar thread some time ago that there's a chance Wallichs' was actually closed on Wednesdays? If so, Billy's recollection may have been wrong about the day of the week, but correct in regards to the store being closed...
98  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Lindsay Buckingham got SMILE tapes and disassembled Pet Sounds for TUSK on: October 23, 2019, 09:33:19 AM
I've always been a big fan of " TUSK ", it has so many different levels to it that make it an amazing album to me. I've also been a big fan of Lindsey's work outside of the band. His one solo release " Out Of The Cradle " is a hidden masterpiece of sound and creativity.

By "one solo release", I assume you mean that one in particular? Because it's hardly his only solo release...his first two ("Law And Order" and "Go Insane"), in particular, should be of interest to any Beach Boys fan, but there have been plenty more since then.
99  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Revisiting the Sloop John Billy Strange guitar gift story on: October 21, 2019, 08:52:39 AM
where is there a 12 string solo in that song?

In Sloop John B?  There isn't one, as such.

I believe it was the interlocking part to the arpeggio figure.


Well, I think the point is that that goes the whole song vs. Billy's recollection of it being 8-16 bars.

I believe he is talking about the musical figure he played throughout the song. That's how I interpret it.


But Billy remembers:

"I made one pass at this thing, it was either eight or sixteen bars"

Which could indicate he is remembering a different song?

I wonder if he's talking about the specific part of the song where the drums drop out, and it's just guitar and bass behind the vocals (the final verse, where Brian sings, "The poor cook he caught the fits", etc.). That's an 8 bar figure...maybe when listening back years later, that part jumped out at him as clearly being overdubbed?
100  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Revisiting the Sloop John Billy Strange guitar gift story on: October 21, 2019, 08:45:28 AM
The Fender Electric XII was not available in stores until November or December of 1965, and most of them were manufactured in 1966. So unless he has the guitar model wrong, the session could not have been much earlier than Sloop John B in December '65.

It couldn't have been an earlier session (e.g. "Help Me Rhonda") because the guitar didn't exist yet. Fender rushed it into production due to the success of "Mr. Tambourine Man" and other such recordings. Carl had an early prototype, but I don't think he had it before the middle of 1965.

There were other electric 12-strings available at the time, e.g. Rickenbacker and (much cheaper) Danelectro. But the Fender was the only solid-body one so it's quite a different instrument.

Carl had his by February '65...he's seen holding one in that shot with Glen and the other touring guys, standing in front of a truck with a sign promoting their show of Feb. 21st.
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