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655415 Posts in 26186 Topics by 3725 Members - Latest Member: suitable_rasberry February 24, 2020, 10:33:06 PM
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51  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: This Whole World ~ isolated guitars recreation video on: December 13, 2019, 09:23:25 AM
Basses on "Break Away" were Ray Pohlman and Jimmy Bond (same as on the song's flip side, "Celebrate The News"). Definitely one upright, and what sounds to me like a 6-string Dano bass (same with "Celebrate The News") - it has that bouncy, slightly grungy sound. A standard Fender bass can sound grungy if played with a pick ("Don't Worry Baby", "Please Let Me Wonder", "Sloop John B."), but I've never really heard that "bounce" except on the lighter-gauge strings of a Dano (or Fender VI).
52  Smiley Smile Stuff / The Beach Boys Media / Re: Ricky Fataar on: December 12, 2019, 11:13:23 PM
I've seen a few photos of Ricky playing rhythm guitar and steel guitar onstage with The Beach Boys. One of the former was in a late '70s issue of Hit Parader.
53  Smiley Smile Stuff / The Beach Boys Media / Re: Beach Boys songbooks? on: December 12, 2019, 11:10:18 PM
I bought piano sheet music for "River Song" online about a year ago.
54  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: This Whole World ~ isolated guitars recreation video on: December 12, 2019, 10:51:54 PM
Here's a question on the This Whole World guitars: do we think any others were added later? I've seen some mention of Carl overdubbing a 12-string, but having scrutinised it that to me just sounds like the piano.

I thought the only guitars on the final master were part of Jerry Cole's guitar, and Carl's overdubbed 12-string.

David Cohen's part is still audible, just mixed low. I'm not hearing any extra 12-string though.

To me, that little chimey part right before the bridge (at 0:31) sounds like a 12-string.

I'm hearing it as Brian's slightly detuned piano with the bells and celeste offsetting the tone a bit.

Well, there was a later guitar overdub of some type...the original session was recorded on 8-track, with Tracks 7 and 8 both designated as electric guitars. Then, there was a transfer to 16-track, with two additional instruments added (guitar on Track 10 and piano on Track 11); the other tracks were used for vocals. Presumably, Carl added that extra guitar, since that transfer to 16-track would almost certainly have been done at a later date.
55  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: This Whole World ~ isolated guitars recreation video on: December 12, 2019, 12:24:42 PM
Very nice. There was some similar guitar play in Breakaway, but this arrangement takes that idea further.  

That's a great point.  Maybe I should do a Breakaway video!  Definitely haven't heard a good mix of that backing track though.

C-man, is there any indication who played on Breakaway?

Yep...the dueling electric lead guitars are David Cohen and Mike Anthony. There's an acoustic rhythm guitar in the background on the basic track, and that's most likely Carl. A second, more prominent acoustic rhythm guitar was overdubbed.

It never even occurred to me that there was more than one lead guitar! Any clues on who played the main overdubbed acoustic? It's a pretty unusual part, my guess wouldn't have been Carl but then I didn't even notice the subtler part he's playing underneath until now. And were the electric guitars overdubbed or live? I'm kinda confused about that listening to Unsurpassed Masters (probably not the best source but...y'know), where it sounds like the piano/guitars track was wiped out in the coda to make room for some of the backing vocals, but the electric leads are still faintly audible in the other channel containing the percussion/organ/first acoustic guitar.

David Cohen was payed for a double, so I assume the overdubbed acoustic part was him. The electric guitars were definitely live.
56  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: This Whole World ~ isolated guitars recreation video on: December 12, 2019, 12:22:38 PM
Here's a question on the This Whole World guitars: do we think any others were added later? I've seen some mention of Carl overdubbing a 12-string, but having scrutinised it that to me just sounds like the piano.

I thought the only guitars on the final master were part of Jerry Cole's guitar, and Carl's overdubbed 12-string.

David Cohen's part is still audible, just mixed low. I'm not hearing any extra 12-string though.

To me, that little chimey part right before the bridge (at 0:31) sounds like a 12-string.
57  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: This Whole World ~ isolated guitars recreation video on: December 12, 2019, 10:28:28 AM
Very nice. There was some similar guitar play in Breakaway, but this arrangement takes that idea further. 

That's a great point.  Maybe I should do a Breakaway video!  Definitely haven't heard a good mix of that backing track though.

C-man, is there any indication who played on Breakaway?

Yep...the dueling electric lead guitars are David Cohen and Mike Anthony. There's an acoustic rhythm guitar in the background on the basic track, and that's most likely Carl. A second, more prominent acoustic rhythm guitar was overdubbed.
58  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Sloop John B guitars ~ isolation video on: December 07, 2019, 08:30:23 AM

(2) What do we think of the guitar situation on "Amusement Parks U.S.A.", which was tracked in April of that year?  We really don't have session tape on that one, but on the SOT boot box for the Summer Days sessions (Disc Four, Tracks 5-7) you can hear a little bit of electric bass and guitar at the very end of the track, past the point where the record was faded out. I hear an octave being sounded there, but it's so quick I'm not sure if it's a 12-sting's G-string pair, for instance, or a 6-string bass doubling the regular Fender bass in a higher octave. It might even be a 6-string bass on that main riff, doubled by a 12-string guitar, but what do we think about that little bit there? Since the BBs were touring the southeast at the time, Carl would not have been on that session, and the contract lists Billy Strange and Jerry Cole (coincidentally, the same pair responsible for electric 12 picking on the "SJB" tracking date three months later), so if there is a 12-string, it would be one of them. 





Amusement Parks is tough.  Not only is there no session tape, but even take 9 as we have it on SOT is overdubbed upon, yeah?  With Hal's barker patter and the sound effects?  So it's mono AND third gen?

Was the basic recorded to three track?

Anyway, yeah, at the end at least, an electric bass (although it could be guitar, I think it's high enough...) is at the octave with Cliff Hils playing lower.  I think it's just one, Fender bass on the track, two guitars, a six and maaaaaybe a 12 strumming.  It's early enough that it'd probably have to be a Bellzouki, a Rickenbacker, or a conversion job.

Yeah, they were still using 3-track then. Since the band track was probably recorded in stereo, thus occupying two of the three tracks on the first generation tape, I'm thinking Hal may have spoken his part "live" over the sound effects as they were fed into the same open track behind him. The Boys then sang an early, doubled set of vocals onto the two open tracks of a second-generation 3-track tape at Western. This early version appears on the Made In California box set. For whatever reason, the decision was later made to redo the vocals on 8-track, and so Brian took the 3-track tape with the backing track and sound effects overdub from Western over to Columbia, and there transferred it to a single track on a 1" 8-track tape. The Boys than re-sang the vocals (modifying the lyrics in a couple of places), and also added some screams and additional voices in the middle. That version (with vocals from Columbia) was released on the Summer Days album.

On the instrumental track (for instance, Track 5 of the SOT boot, from 2:24-2:27) there's that little run where in the first micro-second and last couple of seconds the electric bass sounds like a 6-string to me - I hear that slippery, almost fretting-out kind of sound, like what we hear on the intro to "Salt Lake City". I think that's indicative of a lighter-gauge bass string, like what's used on the Dano or Fender XI. So I would tend to think that Carol played a Dano on this track, while Jerry Cole played whatever electric 12-string he was using in those March-July sessions, and Billy Strange played electric 6-string.
59  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti? on: December 06, 2019, 09:47:39 AM
Track sheet notation for "Susie" indicates there are two rhythm guitars on one track, plus fuzz lead guitar on another. So I guess the most likely scenario is that Al's original guitar track was replaced by a new track of Carl and Al both playing rhythm guitars at the same time, and then Carl did a separate track of lead guitar.
60  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Sloop John B guitars ~ isolation video on: December 06, 2019, 09:08:17 AM
Well, Carl had a Fender XII at the end of '64, so I would think that a session pro like Jerry Cole could've scored one by spring of '65...in fact, there's an electric 12 on "Sherry She Needs Me", which was cut in March '65, and from the session tape, it sounds to me like Carl is actually playing a 6-string on that one, so it would have to be Jerry Cole or Howard Roberts on 12-string (since Billy S. is playing tambourine on that one). The following day, they cut "Salt Lake City", and it sounds like Jerry is playing 12-sting on that one. A week later, the track for "California Girls" was cut, with both Carl and Jerry playing electric 12-strings...
61  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti? on: December 06, 2019, 08:47:07 AM
Version One of "Susie" has Carl on guitar, Brian on bass, Dennis W on drums, and Bruce on piano, with Al producing.

Version Two has Al on guitar, Dennis D on drums, Bruce on piano, and I can only assume Daryl on bass, with Carl producing. Daryl was playing a lot of bass for them at the time (the released verseion of "Slip On Through" is a great example). Other instruments were overdubbed (including Carl's guitar).

I assume the 15 Big Ones credits were based on someone's memory, or a listen to the session tape resulting in confusing and combining credits for the two versions. It was remixed for that album, so they would've heard the multi-tracks again at that point.

As for the mood on these home studio sessions - mostly jocular, sometimes impatient, no malicious sniping or factious arguments - nothing of the sort. Al's pretty hard on himself, which is, I think, why he doesn't play much on their post-'65 tracks.
62  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Who Produced Susie Cincinatti? on: December 05, 2019, 11:02:11 PM
It's an interesting question...the original 45 releases read "Produced by The Beach Boys", as did most of their late '60s/early '70s product. Then, of course, the song was included on 15 Big Ones, where the overall production credit went to Brian (same with the subsequent single releases, as seen in the one linked above). However, when the remixed song appeared on 2013's Made In California box set, it was credited as "Produced by Brian Wilson and Al Jardine".

I've actually heard the tracking session tapes - there were two separate tracking sessions, a few days apart. On the first session, Al is producing from the control booth, while Carl played guitar on the studio floor, and on the second session, it's Carl producing with Al on the floor playing the guitar. The master is from the second session. So I would say Carl definitely deserves a co-production credit. The tapes I heard didn't include the vocal sessions, so it's possible Brian was producing or co-producing then...especially since he's credited with the arrangement on the back of 15 Big Ones (I'd totally believe he arranged the vocals, at least). So perhaps the correct credit would be "Produced by Al Jardine, Carl Wilson , and Brian Wilson"? Or is it just easier to say "Produced by The Beach Boys", as the original credit reads?  Smiley
63  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Sloop John B guitars ~ isolation video on: December 05, 2019, 10:10:08 AM
Again, awesome job! Here's a pair of questions:

(1) Al Jardine famously added a fourth chord to the original, folksy three-chord arrangement of "SJB", and presented that enhanced chord sequence to Brian (notably, on the piano). I would assume the chord Al added was the minor II?

(2) What do we think of the guitar situation on "Amusement Parks U.S.A.", which was tracked in April of that year?  We really don't have session tape on that one, but on the SOT boot box for the Summer Days sessions (Disc Four, Tracks 5-7) you can hear a little bit of electric bass and guitar at the very end of the track, past the point where the record was faded out. I hear an octave being sounded there, but it's so quick I'm not sure if it's a 12-sting's G-string pair, for instance, or a 6-string bass doubling the regular Fender bass in a higher octave. It might even be a 6-string bass on that main riff, doubled by a 12-string guitar, but what do we think about that little bit there? Since the BBs were touring the southeast at the time, Carl would not have been on that session, and the contract lists Billy Strange and Jerry Cole (coincidentally, the same pair responsible for electric 12 picking on the "SJB" tracking date three months later), so if there is a 12-string, it would be one of them. 

64  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Feel Flows box set on: November 30, 2019, 09:41:49 AM
You’re right.  My kid bought Sunshine Tomorrow with her own money right around the time they made the announcement.

Cool kid!
65  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series on: November 27, 2019, 07:49:21 AM
What bothered me about the intro to Back Home was the attack, the way the strings were picked or struck on whatever instrument we're hearing. It didn't sound like a standard pick or plectrum.

So I made this video, no budget or production value, and it's done on an unplugged 12-string electric since I don't have an acoustic handy, showing what I imagined it *could* have been. No room reverb either.

Is it how that intro was done? Probably not. But take a look and give a listen, and see what you think. It could have been done similar to this...maybe... Grin

https://youtu.be/lvAz4Kfzdm0

THAT sounds closer to the "Back Home" intro, to me, than what a zither would. I don't think it was necessarily struck with a pencil on "Back Home", but I now think it was Carol's acoustic 12-string, perhaps either tapped with fingers or struck with some kind of mallet...
66  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series on: November 27, 2019, 07:46:45 AM
I can hear a sort of acoustic guitar tone in the "Back Home" intro - like, the sound of the actual sound-hole.

The zither has a sound hole too  Grin

True, but on the intro of "Back Home", I hear what sounds more like a larger-body, wooden acoustic guitar sound-hole reverberation than the what the slimmer-body zither is capable of producing.
67  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series on: November 26, 2019, 07:47:44 PM
I can hear a sort of acoustic guitar tone in the "Back Home" intro - like, the sound of the actual sound-hole.
68  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series on: November 26, 2019, 02:45:13 PM
Question for people, just to revisit the topic and to make sure I get details right for my big upcoming episode about guitars:

First electric 12 string that appears on a Beach Boys record:  Session-wise:  Don't Hurt My Little Sister; LP Order-wise: Do You Wanna Dance?

Is that correct?  Can anybody think of an appearance before that, or a session before that?

What about acoustic 12-string first appearance?  It's not as late as Then I Kissed Her, is it??


However, it seems to me that Carol Kaye is playing some sort of 12-string electric on the '63 version of "Back Home" (as she reportedly did on The Crystals' "Then He Kissed Me"). Or maybe it's an acoustic with a pickup, driven through an amp?


Is Carol taking credit for the 12 string on that track?

No, but her name's on the AFM contract for "Back Home" '63, and to me the intro (as heard on the Made In California box set) sounds 12-stringish.
EDIT: unless you mean the Crystals' "Then He Kissed Me" track? Yeah, she apparently does take credit for that, as Wikipedia credits her with that intro.
69  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series on: November 26, 2019, 01:50:36 PM
Question for people, just to revisit the topic and to make sure I get details right for my big upcoming episode about guitars:

First electric 12 string that appears on a Beach Boys record:  Session-wise:  Don't Hurt My Little Sister; LP Order-wise: Do You Wanna Dance?

Is that correct?  Can anybody think of an appearance before that, or a session before that?

What about acoustic 12-string first appearance?  It's not as late as Then I Kissed Her, is it??

I now actually think the "12-string" on "Don't Hurt My Little Sister" is a 6-string, double-tracked to sound like a 12-string. That's what it sounds like to me, plus it was cut in June, and Carl supposedly didn't get his Rick 12 until after seeing "A Hard Day's Night", which hit U.S. theaters in August. The Fender XII was introduced until the very end of '64 or beginning of '65, the Mosrite wasn't that common yet, and there's no evidence of Carl owning a Bellzouki. If you listen to the session tapes on the S.O.T. boot, you can hear that the guitar intro was definitely double-tracked, and it sounds to me like a regular 6-string electric on both tracks.

However, it seems to me that Carol Kaye is playing some sort of 12-string electric on the '63 version of "Back Home" (as she reportedly did on The Crystals' "Then He Kissed Me"). Or maybe it's an acoustic with a pickup, driven through an amp?

As for authentic acoustic 12-string: I think Carl's strumming one on "We'll Run Away". He apparently owned around that time, as he's pictured backstage with one (in the shot where Mike and Brian are clowning around, Mike in a cowboy hat and all of them wearing glittery jackets, if memory serves).
70  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series on: November 26, 2019, 12:16:17 PM
It sounds a bit Dick Reynoldsy, filtered through Brian, maybe.  It's very clever little arrangement, with the pizzicato strings echoing but not copying the Billy Strange guitar part--whoever did the arrangement definitely had a good familiarity with the existing track.  And of course, the famous ending, which ends without resolution!

Yeah, I would bet the ending was Brian's idea!
71  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Feel Flows box set on: November 26, 2019, 12:13:18 PM
Instantly available streaming is a double edged sword; on one hand it's great to get everything immediately, but the bad part is that there is no actual disc and case to hold and no booklet to go through. I "cut my teeth" buying cd's at the CD store at the local mall, and consequently learning to love  many bands and styles of music. It hurt my heart to see the CD store close down for good, along with various other CD stores. I'm firmly stuck on the CD format of music, and probably always will be.

I had the same reaction when the music world shifted from vinyl LPs to CDs! I cut MY teeth buying 12" vinyl at the local mall, and shed a tear when it became quite clear that the industry was "downsizing" it's album art presentation standard to fit the jewel case.  Sad
72  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Don't Talk isolated guitars re-creation on: November 26, 2019, 09:41:30 AM
Big thumbs up to aeijtzsche for this "Darlin'" chord breakdown, and everything else on this and other threads!
73  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series on: November 26, 2019, 09:36:41 AM
Couple of suggestions for topics, JH:

- The evolution in Brian's thinking about the string family from "The Surfer Moon" through to Pet Sounds and SMiLE, with live examples on violin, viola and cello.

FYI, the string arrangement on "The Surfer Moon" is reportedly the concoction of Bob Norberg and Jan Berry - which is why it sounds so un-Brianlike.

Thanks. Indeed, it sounds like a leap backwards rather than forwards, back to the likes of The Chantels' "Look In My Eyes": 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L63c2DTpag

Better make that "Three Blind Mice" then. Grin


It still sounds like a good idea--and I do plan a string scoring episode!  It will happen when I can figure out how to do 4 or 5 way split screen video so people can see me play all the parts at once!

That would be mind-boggling!  Y'know, another string score that doesn't really sound like a Brian arrangement is that for "In The Back Of My Mind". If it IS his, it would pretty much be his first, right? The strings on the Christmas album were scored by Dick Reynolds, and I don't think any of Brian's outside productions up to that point utilized strings. Makes me wonder if someone else didn't orchestrate that track. No AFM sheet has surfaced that might reveal an outside arranger, and no one's stepped forward to claim or assign credit to anyone else, though.
74  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series on: November 26, 2019, 05:31:17 AM
Couple of suggestions for topics, JH:

- The evolution in Brian's thinking about the string family from "The Surfer Moon" through to Pet Sounds and SMiLE, with live examples on violin, viola and cello.


FYI, the string arrangement on "The Surfer Moon" is reportedly the concoction of Bob Norberg and Jan Berry - which is why it sounds so un-Brianlike.
75  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Don't Talk isolated guitars re-creation on: November 24, 2019, 06:37:57 PM
I, for one, think this is invaluable work, destined to benefit generations to come.
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