Just pure Western reverb chamber, applied at mixdown.  Keep in mind that any reverb on the vocals on this track on the Stereo Remix or Vocal Only versions are completely contemporary, the vocals are dry as they exist on the multitrack tape, so Mark had to add new reverb for the stereo mixes.

Reverb done on the backing tracks was all done live and printed to tape, using the natural reverb chambers of the studios or EMT plate.

Actually, the "GOK" vocals (and the mixdown of the song) occurred at Columbia Studios...so it was their echo chamber.  Also, regarding the effects on the vocals...at least some were RECORDED that way, and printed to tape as such, like for instance Brian's lead on "You Still Believe In Me" (which, according to Mark, prevented him from artificially doubling the lead on the stereo remix) and the tape delay on Mike's lead for "Here Today".

C-Man

a while looking at my vinyl copy of Holland, I noticed that Steamboat-Beaks-California-trader-onlywithyou were put out by Wilojarston Pub...when did this start? I dont think ive ever seen it on the twofers...perhaps made during surfs up? the other tracks were Brother Pub, besides Leaving this town; perhaps because they were written before the holland album? Ive always heard Sail on was done in 71 and i knew big sur was made during Surf'sLandlockedUp period...anyone wanna distinguish these Publishing companies? thanx 

I'm looking through my "Surf's Up"/"Sunflower" music book, published by Warner Bros. in '72...
"Tears in the Morning", "Disney Girls", "Feel Flows", and "Lookin' At Tomorrow" are all Wilojarston...the rest are Brother..."SDT"is excluded, presumably because it's under Leiber-Stoller's publishing. 
Interesting..."Wilojarston", obviously from "WIlson-LOve-JARdine-johnSTON"...it almost seemed like it was intended as the outlet for BBs songs with no Wilson involvement, but "Feel Flows", along with the Wilson-penned tunes on "Holland", blows that theory...

C-Man

The album version?  There was tape delay on the drums, yeah. 

To me, it sounds like plate reverb.

C-Man

Also, "Ztar"?

I've always been intrigued by the twangy, electric (or "coral") sitar sound in the verses of that song, so my guess is it is whatever produced that sound. 

BTW, this song/production is probably the one "unknown" BBs track I would play to someone who only knows the hits.  One of their best recordings ever, in my opinion.

C-Man

Do you know what a "Roxi" is? 

"Roxi", I would imagine, is the RMI Rock-si-chord electronic keyboard. 
Check out this website, and go to the link "The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly":

http://www.alphabeck.co.uk/hoep/epianos.html

Gosh darn, excuse my ignorance...but were talkin about 'what id beeeee wiiiiitthhhouuuut yoouuu...god only knows...what id beeee wiiiittth'

right?

i left my headphones at home so I cant really listen to them back to back and try to hear the difference.

No, I believe that part is identical on mono & stereo, but the main vocal on the tag, the first one to appear, is a strong Brian on the mono and a weak Carl on the stereo.  I think it was Bruce who said that Carl's attempt was taped at the end of a very long session when he was out of steam.  Brian redid that part at a later session, apparently on a different multi-track master, and it was edited in.  They have not been able to locate this.  Same kind of story with Mike's bridge on "WIBN", although that was corrected on the 2001 release (they either found that missing multi-rrack, or somehow transferred in the bridge from the mono mix while keeping the stereo sound).

C-Man

People can prefer Brian's original "mixed in one day" version of the album,
but nobody that isn't an audio snob will say the mono SOUNDS better
then the stereo mix.

Except that the mono is the only place to find some of the origial elements, like Brian singing the lead line on the "GOK" tag.   I do appreciate the stereo, but man, the Carl line on the stereo version is just plain weaker...I cringe everytime I hear it.  Brian's performance is just so much stronger.  And "official", since that the performance he went with in '66 (with good reason, IMO).

C-Man

I know lots of folks have a fondness for the '93 DCC gold disc, and that does probably sound the most "vinyl-like" of all the CD issues.  That said, a few nights back I listened to the 2001 issue on my very nice Polk Audio speakers in the control room of my studio, and it sounded freakin' AMAZING.

C-Man

Yes, the best sounding "Pet Sounds" is the mono.
Oh sorry, I thought it was a question...
ha ha.

C-Man

[Comment to C-Man --]

Comment to C-Man -- I haven't seen any evidence that "Loop" (or the entire so-called "Landlocked", aka "Second Warner Bros. Album"), was actually submitted to Warners.  Last I heard, the general consensus was that it was a reel of completed or nearly-completed songs for consideration, but not an official album (despite what is written on the reel), and was never submitted for approval or rejection....and of course, Steve can and should correct me if I'm wrong here.  Sorry, you have been incorrectly informed.  Record executives do not usually listen to reels of tape.  They listen to LP's in their offices. They don't get into production nuances. They relate to saleable product, i.e., LP records. They want to hear the finished product only. Such was the case with Warner executives especially Mo Ostin, Warner Bros. president.  The group took the finished Warner album over to Mo Ostin's office on an acetate (for all I know the very one in my collection) and sat there as he listened. He told them he was concerned that the songs were too weak. He admonished them that they could do better and wanted them to return to the studio and put their collective nose to the grindstone.  I remember vividly how they, The Beach Boys, were when coming back to the studio after being wrung out by none other than Mo Ostin.  That was the turning point -- the do or die -- point for them.  They were in debt, their leader sick in his head, months into their two-albums-per-18 month contract with W7, concert attendends down and each facing personal financial problems. You bet Warner heard what was to be their big offering under contract. You bet it was submitted -- and rejected, big time.  To my knowledge, everytime over the years that Al was asked about "Loop"'s release, he always replied that it wasn't finished....of course, he could've finished it rather quickly back then, WAIT A MINUTE here!!  Who the hell are you to tell Alan Jardine that "he could have finished his song just like that?"  I think that is a very bad judgement call for you to make.  but the point is, "Loop" doesn't show up on any of the proposed track lists for the first two Warner Bros. albums that I'm aware of...only the "Second Warner Bros. Album" reel, which from all indications, wasn't even that. What Crap!!  BTW, "Landlocked" is reported to have been the working title of the "Surf's Up" album, which became "Surf's Up" only when the inclusion of that pivotal song was secured, and also reportedly at the suggestion of Van Dyke Parks.  Wrong again. The reports are just plain WRONG!  VDP had little if anything to do with the album of Surf's Up. Look at the dates of the artwork for the album cover and insert. Those concepts predate all this nonsense. ~swd 

BTW, I prefer the original 1969 mix of "Loop de Loop" also. 

C-Man

My apologies.  I stand corrected.

"Loop De Loop" was originally on "Landlocked" which was rejected by Warners.  The early version I've heard sounds like a final mix to me.  So Jack Rieley could easily be telling the truth here.  It just seems way beyond ridiculous to say you wouldn't believe a single thing Jack Rieley says.  Why would he be lying?  Do you think he's getting paid by Brian, and maybe Dennis' and Carl's heirs to say some bad things about Mike Love and Al Jardine?  I happen to totally love "Loop De Loop", too, and think Jack Rieley was crazy not to like the song.  But that doesn't mean I don't believe what the guy has to say.

        Love and merci,   Dan Lega

I did not say "I don't believe a single thing Jack Rieley says"...what I said was "I wouldn't rustanything he says"...which means, just because he says it, doesn't mean I'm going to take it as gospel.  Because, as Steve pointed out, Rieley has his "perspective", which in my opinion has been colored by a bias against the Mike-Alan-Bruce axis.  I haven't seen any evidence that "Loop" (or the entire so-called "Landlocked", aka "Second Warner Bros. Album"), was actually submitted to Warners.  Last I heard, the general consensus was that it was a reel of completed or nearly-completed songs for consideration, but not an official album (despite what is written on the reel), and was never submitted for approval or rejection....and of course, Steve can and should correct me if I'm wrong here.  To my knowledge, everytime over the years that Al was asked about "Loop"'s release, he always replied that it wasn't finished....of course, he could've finished it rather quickly back then, but the point is, "Loop" doesn't show up on any of the proposed track lists for the first two Warner Bros. albums that I'm aware of...only the "Second Warner Bros. Album" reel, which from all indications, wasn't even that.  BTW, "Landlocked" is reported to have been the working title of the "Surf's Up" album, which became "Surf's Up" only when the inclusion of that pivotal song was secured, and also reportedly at the suggestion of Van Dyke Parks. 

BTW, I prefer the original 1969 mix of "Loop de Loop" also. 

C-Man

I wouldn't trust anything Rieley says...

C-Man

      I, myself, find Jack Rieley totally believable.  Do you want to give us a reason why you think he's lying?


          Love and merci,  Dan Lega

I guess C-Man has some lies in mind that Riley told the BBs so they hire him. But maybe this isn't the right thread to talk about that...

That's one reason...there are others I won't mention here.  But one I will mention here is this: 
Alan had steadfastly refused over the years to release "Loop de Loop" in its original form, even in 1993 when fans were begging for it to be included on the box set, because he said it wasn't finished.  He finally sanctioned its release in 1998, but only after it was finished to his satisfaction.  Why should we believe he was pushing for its release in the early '70s just because Jack Rieley says so, when we know he was refusing to release it a few years later?   

C-Man

Essential, as is the Leaf book, can't believe California Myth has been criticized for being too pro-Brian !...Sad news regarding Preiss...Has either book been updated lately ? AGD (among  others) would surely know something...

Not "lately", but the Preiss book was updated in '83 (minus the illustrations), and of course, as mentioned above, the Leaf book was updated in '85.

C-Man

       Here's what Jack Rieley had to say about the "Surf's Up" album and "Student Demonstration Time" in October of 1996...

--------------------------


Meanwhile, Carl Wilson and I began to write. Long Promised Road began to
be created. Then came the seed for Feel Flows.  Til I Die became a must.
Tree was born.  Love, Jardine and Johnston began to get testy about it
all.  There was a long meeting during which they tried to force me to
march into Mo's office and sell him on Loop.  I refused and Brian
Wilson, Dennis Wilson and Carl Wilson backed me up.  Love, sensing that
I might be on to something by rejecting the string-o-hits crap as out of
date, suddenly came up with Student Demonstration Time, which had Carl
and I blushing with embarassment and which thoroughly disgusted Dennis.
Then Jardine demanded that his Feet song go on the album. Johnston got
Tears. When Carl and I compiled the album running order, most versions
had the Wilson songs on one side and the jive on the other.  It was
uncool, so we changed to the running order you know.


-----------------------------

I wouldn't trust anything Rieley says...

C-Man

Any info on when the tune 'Hard Times' was done would be groovy, too.
And 'Carry Me Home'? I always assumed, supposedly being the first piece of studio work Blondie and Ricky took part in, that this would have been cut in the latter part of '71. Someone else once alluded to knowing - without doubt - that it was done sometime early in '72. But I'm the distrustful, hunch-following type. Anyone know fer sure?

Ta,
xxmoixx

"Carry Me Home" is a "Holland" outtake, written by Dennis (and maybe Gregg Jakobsen).

C-Man

OK, due to the general consensus on this board, I've modified the "Dance Dance Dance" part of the "Today Outtakes" essay.  Thanks guys!

C-Man

Agreed, it, along with the Leaf book of the same year, were/are indispensable.
Sadly, Byron Preiss died last year in an auto accident on the way to synagogue.
R.I.P.

C-Man

I agree with Stephen, some of us appreciate it from a certain life experience.

Stephen, I wondered if you remember if it was Mike who brought the song Cell Block #9 to the table or was it someone else's [Brian, Carl, Al, Dennis, Bruce] idea to use the song [Cell Block #9] and they then asked Mike to write relevant lyrics?

For all we know, it coulda been Jack Rieley's idea...sounds like it, although he probably would've wanted to write the lyrics himself it was.  But who knows...he might've suggested it, and Mike might've said "Ooh, I'll write 'em!".

C-Man

That song is awesome for the chance for Carl to stretch out and PLAY.  He never got enough opportunity to do that and most people, BB fans included, don't know how good a player he was.

Carl was the best kind of guitarist.  The kind that never lets on exactly how good they are.  I mean, it's a nice mystery.  I have no idea if Carl could shred, but I do know that he had something in reserve that I'm not privy to.  And I like that.

I've heard that in the last decade or so of his life, when he was living in Colorado, Carl would often sit in with blues bands at a local club.  That's something we're not privy to!

C-Man

That was the singler version of RNRM, and is available on the 3rd Greatest hits volume put out by C(r)apitol "The Best of the Brother Years".

No, he's talking about a completely different mix, with "wild" guitars and an extra verse (see Alan's response above).  There's an inferior (yet fun to listen to) copy of that radio broadcast in circulation.
According to Elliott, this alternate (earlier) mix was Brian's, wheareas the released version was mixed by Carl.  Yes, the single mix is different still.

C-Man

[I've listened through headphones and speakers of varying size and quality.  I've OOPSed, panned, and eliminated the center channel.  I've sped the track up, which makes bass more audible.  I've done extensive parametric, graphic, and shelf EQing.  At this point I'd bet a lot of money there's no accordion, and the dano is not double tracked.

Logically, does it really make sense to think there's an accordion on the track when there's nobody there that plays one?  I don't know if you've ever tried to play an accordion, but it's not easy and takes a while to get the hang of.  I don't trust any of the Beach Boys ability beyond Brian to play accordion.

On the dano issue, in addition to not hearing it, I think there's a numbers issue, since Brian is on Piano and Carl and Al are presumably on guitars, that doesn't leave anybody left to play dano, unless Carl was somehow playing two guitars simultaneously during the chorus.

Here's just the right side with no center channel:

http://www.someoneliving.com/ddd1.mp3

Actually, it now appears to me the second Dano is in the MIDDLE channel, with the piano and accordion (if there is an accordion).  Listen to the Intro with headphones (this is Track 21 on the "U.M." bootleg).  Can't you hear two basses playing that line, especially on the low notes (the sixth through eleventh notes of the riff)?  I can hear one on the left (slightly more trebly) and another toward the right, but in the center (more bassy).   We know from the basic track that Brian's Fender bass doesn't come in until the second round of the Intro riff.  What could I be hearing?

As for the guitar...I still think it's just Carl playing his Rickenbacker 12-string, double-tracked.  Lots of overtones can result from guitars, especially 12-strings like you said, and it's possible they did a direct feed and mic'd amp combination, or had a room mic picking up some of that sound.  It's easy to make one guitar sound like two if you're doing something more than close mic'ing. 

The accordion...I still don't know, I wish we could just get the middle channel, but without the 3-track tapes, I wouldn't know how to do that!    As for nobody being there to play it:  it could be Ron (I have no idea if he plays accordion or not, but I coud ask him I guess), it could be someone else who happened to be in the studio (meaning a real Nashville cat).  It could also be a concertina (are those easier to play?), or a harmonium, or something else.  Yes, it could also be a trick of the ears.  I will probably modify my essay to include that possibility...but I'll wait to hear what the final consensus is on the second Dano.  I've been wrong before...but I swear I hear it!

C-Man

You're dead on for the basic track.  The instrumental insert is where I'm not sure.  I don't hear another bass or dano being overdubbed.  Panned hard right, I don't hear a bass guitar.  This would make sense, because I'm pretty sure there are two electric guitars played in the insert; Carl doubling the riff on 12-string, and I would guess Al coming in on his strat for the choruses.  It's not a 12-string on the crunchy chorus guitar chords IMO, and it's very Fender sounding to my ears.  Additionally, I don't hear an Accordion.

Listen through headphones, and you can tell the Dano is double-tracked. 
Listen through most car stereo speakers, and you can hear the accordion (very high frequency).

very cool man! i enjoy the reads...i print them out and read them during classes

Shame on you for not paying attention in class!

I never even knew until I read Jon Stebbins' book that the BB's (well, at least Dennis and the BB touring band) performed a couple of songs from "Pacific Ocean Blue" at a few BB shows in 1977. I can't remember the titles for sure, but I think one of them was "What's Wrong."

Are you really talking 'bout other songs as "River Song", that they did live? I thought Dennis wasn't allowed to play his own song. Or was it that he wasn't allowed to play his own solo-songs while on the same stage as the BBs?

I don't know how it was managed legally, but perhaps because by that point in time the BBs were signed to Caribou as well as Dennis.  That would seem to negate the prohibition clause.  And yes, Dennis reportedly performed two "POB" songs live at a couple of shows in Canada.  I think the other one was "You And I", but can't remember.  Eric's setlist archive has a setlist from one of these shows, so we can all look that up. 

Lastly, regarding the "Midnight Special" performance...I'm pretty sure "Rock 'n' Roll Music" is the real thing, totally live (look at Dennis' drumming, Bruce's electric piano playing and the way Brian gooses the bass at one point).  I think it'd be too difficult to mime to that stuff later.  Especially for Dennis, who was clearly high at the time. 

C-Man

"Remember that time you raped that little thirteen-year-old-girl and knocked her up?".. hahahahaha

I'm sure it was statutory.