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680601 Posts in 27601 Topics by 4068 Members - Latest Member: Dae Lims March 29, 2024, 07:23:38 AM
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1  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: So...Where Were We, Anyway? on: March 19, 2024, 06:07:59 PM
Just wanted to quickly note: the text color issue is not problematic on my computer. I hope others will take a look and provide you with more data points on this...

As GF noted, the narrowing down of discourse about SMiLE as an ongoing source of "what if" investigations is one of the more vexing results of BWPS, and you astutely mention in one of your introductory posts that the parts of SMiLE that were most prominent in our minds during the "piece-by-piece" emergence also seem to have become casualties in SMiLE's overall mummification. Folks used to be able to advocate for the SMiLE music by citing "Surf's Up" or "Cabinessence" (or the alternate "Heroes & Villains" that emerged with the '93 box set) but now it seems that the whole thing has become a "tamed edifice" that has entered a realm of "high art" and approached the way one approaches classical music. That's one reason why I think Dae Lims' reconstruction of a "what if" SMiLE from late '66-early '67 is valuable and energizing for future approaches to SMiLE, particularly at the point in time when Brian is no longer with us. (I don't get the impression that Brian has ever been interested in re-opening the can of worms that Darian Sahanaja was able to help him tame with BWPS.)

I'll be curious to see if your material takes us in such a direction; but even if that turns out to be not so much the case, I think this is the right time for "new/old" writing about SMiLE to emerge, and I look forward to reading it.
2  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The most stunning Beach Boys AI I've heard yet on: March 16, 2024, 06:28:59 PM
No young Brian on old Brian songs. Please.

The old BW songs gain their power from him being, well, old.

To his credit, Dae Lims gets this and has been very careful in his approach. Desert Drive is a full latter day BB version. The Like in I Love You have been given a full band treatment, but it’s not even a BW melody. His L&M toured the history of BW vocal approaches. That’s all amazing and excellent.

But putting a young BW on MAD, for example, or the Paley tracks — it just doesn’t work or make aesthetic sense. The young BW wouldn’t have written or produced those songs.

Agreed, with maybe one exception--I think many folks would like to hear a song like "I'll Bet He's Nice" with a Sunflower-Surf's Up era vocal blend and younger-ish lead vocals. I'm not sure if that would absolutely necessitate a significant reworking of the backing track as well, but it would be interesting to hear regardless...
Here's one attempt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VXi3AXzGrc

Thanks, Joel. I appreciated the effort that was made on this, but didn't think that the melody choice on the "please don't tell me if it's true" line quite worked for this, and the tag was lacking what Dae Lims would have provided to give it the memorable finish that many folks were hearing in their heads when they encountered it on Love You. The tag on the original is actually the strongest part of the song, so it really needs to do the same for a "time-travel" verson (IMO, but I think many will agree).
3  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The most stunning Beach Boys AI I've heard yet on: March 11, 2024, 12:41:03 AM
No young Brian on old Brian songs. Please.

The old BW songs gain their power from him being, well, old.

To his credit, Dae Lims gets this and has been very careful in his approach. Desert Drive is a full latter day BB version. The Like in I Love You have been given a full band treatment, but it’s not even a BW melody. His L&M toured the history of BW vocal approaches. That’s all amazing and excellent.

But putting a young BW on MAD, for example, or the Paley tracks — it just doesn’t work or make aesthetic sense. The young BW wouldn’t have written or produced those songs.

Agreed, with maybe one exception--I think many folks would like to hear a song like "I'll Bet He's Nice" with a Sunflower-Surf's Up era vocal blend and younger-ish lead vocals. I'm not sure if that would absolutely necessitate a significant reworking of the backing track as well, but it would be interesting to hear regardless...
4  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: A Book of Brian: new site for in-depth commentary on Brian Wilson/Beach Boys on: March 08, 2024, 03:46:56 AM
Keep at it, Jake--you've got a distinct perspective from the mainstream, and an approach that so far is doing a fine job of synthesizing other source materials. I'm looking forward to seeing how you handle all the twists and turns that are coming as you move from the "fad hit" phase to Brian's emergence as a peerless producer...and then into the maelstrom, the abyss, the group's regroup, the band hitting the wall of its past, etc., etc.
5  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: 1975 on my website on: February 20, 2024, 11:29:55 PM
Great work, Ian--this is one of the "high water" years for sure! 

I love those quotes about the "50 songs"--how many of those songs have actually turned up in the intervening years??
6  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Man, we were on such a roll… on: February 14, 2024, 06:47:37 PM
Sorry to have missed Howie when he stopped by--he's covering all kinds of interesting ground in his playlist work, and don't be surprised if he has a project idea or two that builds on all that very sophisticated and eclectic perspective on the band's music.

Hoping he'll be on some of the still-burgeoning Internet media outlets again soon to share ideas and update folks a bit more on what's bubbing under behind the scenes.

SOS '72 was priced a bit high, and that probably didn't help sales, but it is a fine package and did justice to a fraught, frenetic, at times fractured period of the band's career, one where everyone's creativity was on display--as evidenced by the two anchoring LPs. Listening to Devin Lawrence's piano reconstructions of "Mess of Help" and "Funky Pretty" will make it clear that Brian still had it even as he moved into areas that collided with rock genres not previously associated with the band. We could use a companion to Brian's solo piano collection were he's pounding away on the tracks from this period through to Shortenin' Bread--call it "Brian Bangs The Keys"...would be great fun and could be another surrogate for that "rock'n'roll album"...
7  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The most stunning Beach Boys AI I've heard yet on: February 12, 2024, 10:16:52 PM
Not bad, not bad at all, Waves! It's of course more of a curiosity than anything else, but given all the lore about SoS, it's a welcome footnote to hear something semi-credible for what we know to be a lost first take. Dennis' voice really does seem quite suitable to the song, not to take anything away from Blondie.

Imagining what it could sound like with the sophisticated and artistic techniques employed by Dae Lims does send a little shiver through the spine, though, doesn't it?  3D
8  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: RIP Melinda Kay Ledbetter Wilson (1946-2024) on: January 31, 2024, 03:57:40 AM
Well said by so many as we come to grips with some very unexpected (heart)breaking news. We all wish and hope and pray that Brian has many loved ones and close friends at hand right now, as he comes to grips with what is possibly his most difficult loss.

Melinda was a true heroine who gave him the love & mercy and the total support that he needed to pick up the pieces after his hellish years with Landy and his "surf nazis," making it possible for him to forge a triumphant solo career.

Fans of Brian will always be indebted to her; perhaps David Leaf will envision a fitting institutional tribute for her at UCLA. Her life and legacy deserves a public place of honor. RIP Mrs. Wilson...
9  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: PET SQUARES #18: Party Side 2 + The Little Girl I Once Knew on: January 29, 2024, 08:52:06 PM
Superb stuff, even more than usual, Adam--we are getting a deeply considered, exhaustively researched, and wonderfully constructed history of the band as you move closer and closer to the apex of the golden age. No question but that you're rising to the occasion and adding significant new insight as you go along, including this forceful revaluation of "The Little Girl I Once Knew," providing its musical/historical context and (1000% rightfully) championing it as the pinnacle of the "innocent phase" of Brian's engagement with the evolving sixties sounds around him. From here on, he moves into a world totally his own, and I hope you'll find a way to show how that's the case when moving into the discussion of PET SOUNDS.

And that point about "The Little Girl Once Knew" being a conscious statement by Brian and Darian etal during the early live touring efforts is spot on. Having been at several of those shows, and having loved the track for more than two decades after discovering it (languishing on a Pickwick compilation LP), I was thrilled beyond measure when they opened with it and sent into a special realm of rapture when they totally nailed it. Thanks for doing it justice!
10  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The most stunning Beach Boys AI I've heard yet on: January 28, 2024, 01:13:10 AM
One of the YouTube posters on "The Like in I Love You" expresses perfectly the emotions that I think so many of us are feeling when we hear Dae Lims channel the magic that ran through this band in so many ways, over so many years, despite all of the "shackles that were binding them down." The innocence and idealism of the band was unique during its original glorious run, and continued to evolve as Dennis and Carl took over much of the oversight for the band after Brian's emotional issues took hold after the Friends LP tanked. Dae Lims has a knack at capturing that feeling in his remarkable affinity for vocal and instrumental textures that is simply uncanny, and it seems to be getting more and more masterful as he proceeds with making versions of songs that so many of us had hoped might have come into existence save for those "shackles."

Here's the quote: "Dae Lims has become the same feeling of excitement I had as a boy going to a record store to find great new songs.  Going to this channel I'm hoping for songs, like all of his so far, that creates exactly that same feeling now."

He's permitting us to set aside all of the anguish and disappointment and frustration that has unavoidably filtered into our reckoning with the band's career, and exist in a wondrous liminal state where it's 1965 again, no matter what actual "year" he is targeting for these ideal reconstructions. We've been morphed into a world where the band can do no wrong, where it's able to play to its strengths at all times. They are not all 100% perfect, of course, but they are so good that one often just can't believe what they're hearing. AI as a force in the world is undeniably problematic, but not in the hands of someone with so much respect and love for the original band as Dae Lims clearly possesses--along with the technical chops to make recordings that channel directly into the very human "feel" of the group.

It is beyond exhilarating, and I frankly never expected that any of us would experience anything remotely like it. Like so many of you, I can't hardly wait for more--MORE...MORE!!  w00t!
11  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The most stunning Beach Boys AI I've heard yet on: December 31, 2023, 03:05:49 AM
From the "vaults." Dae Lims unearthed 1960s version of She's Got Rhythm, in mono and with crackles straight from the 45! Wink
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUgaztzcizk

First one I've not been overly thrilled about. The quality is great - it's just that Brian's vocal sounds too polished. The track kinda sounds like it would fit perfectly on an early 2000's arthritis prescription medicine commercial. Reminds me of AGD's comment (I forget it he said it or if he heard it from somewhere else) about Soulful Old Man Sunshine sounding like it was made for a shampoo/conditioner commercial haha.

One commenter at YouTube felt the falsetto was too shrill, which I suppose is the (near) opposite of polished. To me it sounds like an up-tempo variant of the "Let Him Run Wild" chorus.

Agree that the backing track is a bit too faithful to the original, whereas something more in the interstice between SD/SN production and PS would be in order.

Quote

Whereas the MIU version is great because it doesn't sound polished...while Brian is trying to sound like his younger self, he still sounds gruff - has sort of a 'Drip Drop', 'Shortenin Bread' vibe that really makes the corniness of the composition work.

Just my two cents, but as always, smile AD does a fantastic job creating/mixing!

Let's face it, the original is not a great track. It's Brian trying to leverage something from the 15BO production style, but being a bit lazy and paint-by-numbers a la "It's OK" and trying to kinda "cheat" his way to an updated "old style" hit. Dae Lims gets the energy into Brian's lead, which takes that part of the song back into a liminal space more akin to between ASL and TODAY!, but Mike's part actually sounds as though it were lifted verbatim off the MIU version, which is a bit jarring.

But all of this is merely quibbling...this is so catchy and joyous that it reminds us that the band's pre-PS material was the apotheosis of (lost) 60s innocence, and anyone who can channel it as masterfully as Dae Lims should be bowed down to reflexively, repetitively, reverentially.

Now, if he wants to try to rework some selected tracks from PACIFIC OCEAN BLUE for a less blemished vocal sound from Dennis...that could be pretty awesome as well.
12  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The Board Is Back on: November 29, 2023, 04:58:55 PM
Good on you GF for speaking truth to you-know-who, and thanks to Charles for bringing us back from the brink again...

...and just in time for Dennis and Carl's upcoming natal days: December is an extra-special BB month! 3D
13  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The board on: November 13, 2023, 01:40:38 PM
Glad to see you back, Billy!

There's nothing wrong with a relatively quiet board--it's clear that when topics that push past the well-traveled topics pop up, we have the same level of engagement as was more commonly the case in past years. As GF noted, fewer clashes and less focus on agendas involving revisionist history might mean fewer overall posts, but the peace of mind that has ensued is a welcome tradeoff.

We've been blessed with a tremendous amount of unreleased material in the past 5-6 years that has given us a much better sense of what was happening with the band in what is arguably its most interesting period: 1967-73. That in itself has resulted in a reduction of speculative posts/discussions that probably accounted for 20-30% of the overall traffic.

We are really in legacy mode at this point, with hopes that some kind of grand synthesis might occur from those who have more active control over things. We can hopefully look forward to a big project from Ed Roach, which will give us new access to "in the moment" events and a set of untold stories that can give us more context into the band's complicated dynamics. We'll see just how useful the latest "official" biography will be when it's widely available, and we can hope that some final kernels of creative fire are still at work with Brian as he retires for the second time from the road.

So it's all OK...and, as Mike sings in the last verse of that song: let's enjoy while it lasts.
14  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian AI Project. on: October 09, 2023, 04:43:25 AM
I'm at a bit of a crossroads here, and I can't decide what to do.

I have a finished version of On A Holiday, with Mike and Al sharing the lead. On the middle section, the pirate rap, I had van dyke parks beat rapping the part I was so excited about it and couldn't wait to share.

I was encouraged to send it to the man himself, and I was excited to receive a reply. I told him that I wanted to make something special to celebrate my love of BWPS and the original tracks for the 20th anniversary. I made sure to let him know that if he didn't like it, I wouldn't release it as is.

Very respectfully, he responded that he didn't feel the track honored the legacy and that I should do something else with my talent (paraphrasing). He was very kind and I want to stress that I don't feel anything negative towards his response.

However, I can't help but feel that if he isn't a fan of the project... I should just drop it. I don't feel like a compromised version of my vision would be worth following through with. I'm not sure what specifically about my project he didn't like, like just the use of his voice on the track, but I just feel off about the whole thing now.

I know others have mentioned he gave some encouraging words to Dae Lims Smile, so that's cool... oof!  LOL Roll Eyes

Thoughts?

Reading this again, I'm wondering if VDP remains just as abashed about his own vocals as he always seems to have been. He's clearly not much of a singer (as he has noted frequently himself), but he has had some good moments (such as on his arrangement of "H&V") but my sense is that he would somehow be appalled to be an actual part of the vocal SMiLE, seeing that as a kind of desecration of what Brian was trying to accomplish in stretching the band's vocals as far as possible.

Given that interpretation, you could take his response with a grain of salt and read between the lines as to why he was not so keen on your choice of using him.

It's a tricky business getting in touch with one's idols, you know--so much randomness is possible in their response, and they have their own issues with things in ways that will probably always remain opaque to us...
15  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The most stunning Beach Boys AI I've heard yet on: September 23, 2023, 05:28:25 PM
An "early" version of Our Sweet Love. Very sweet...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmVunCBgLnc

Thanks, Joel. Proof here that someone with massive technical skills and a deep affinity/ability for recapturing the nuances with the Beach Boys' vocal blend can create a "fake" that fully honors the original creators. That "you and me/our happy home" round is nothing short of mind-blowing...I had "tears in the afternoon" listening to this a second, third, fourth time.

Hats off to Dae Lims!  Love
16  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian AI Project. on: September 19, 2023, 08:36:23 AM
I think the constructive criticism here should be based on a better understanding of the "training" process and how it's applied to each song. In comparing Mike's work to Dae Lims (you folks out there realize, of course, that "Dae Lims" is "Smile AD" backwards, yes?!) we should ask whose models/process has produced the most credible "AI surrogate" vocals, and why this is the case--better vocalists being used as "source," better/more exhaustive-thus-closer-to-the-sound-timbre-vocal style of each actual BB, etc.

AI has got to get closer and closer to a more authentic (if that's the right word, and if it's actually possible...) replication of the BBs voices in order for re-envisioning of vocal arrangements that never made it to tape in '66/'67 to pass muster. Many of them kinda sorta do that now, but this is the battleground for whether this promising area of work can go beyond the stage of being a fascinating curiosity. Dae Lims has (IMO) gotten there on more than a few occasions; Mike is lagging behind in that respect, but his work still holds promise.

It's clear how much work is involved in all of this, so none of the above is meant in any way to be perjorative or judgmental, and I hope it's not taken that way. Hoping that folks will keep at this, as the music is special and unique enough (and still tantalizingly incomplete despite the existence of BWPS '04) to warrant ongoing investigation and engagement...
17  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian AI Project. on: August 30, 2023, 05:29:39 PM
AI and creativity raises a fascinating complex of issues (in part because it is also so harrowing in its implications). That said, I think we need to give folks leeway to try things out as much as possible--within some established and fairly exacting set of parameters. In saying that I am focusing mostly on music/musical reconstruction as we've begun to experience it in general (and, of course, specifically with SMiLE--a project that in its still-infinite aftermath is made for AI tools and approaches.

For SMiLE as tackled by Dae Lims, we're probably going to need a full transcription of the vocal reconstructions in order to fully assess the ultimate level of efficacy in his SMiLE. That may be possible for some unusually enterprising individual who can collate his lengthy explanations of his process. Of course, such a compendium won't eliminate lingering skepticisms about the decisions made (particularly the choices between AI vocals and actual vocals). But we probably need to see all of that in some kind of consolidated flow chart or other type of summary before we can draw any truly substantive conclusions.

One thing that I hope we'll get from one of the SS stalwarts is a song-by-song interpretation/analysis, which doesn't seem to have emerged yet. I wonder if one or two of our folks who are established as research experts might take a crack at that at some point. Those folk may wish to tackle the subject of "liberties" taken and how likely some of those choices might really have been, just for the sake of grounding that in a way where it can be dealt with and not continually threaten to sidetrack the discussion. Dae Lims made some major choices (particularly in jettisoning GV, Look and Holidays) in making what we might call the January '67 version of SMiLE (although with some of the '71 "Surf's Up" managing to travel back in time).

It's clearly a very personal mix, and a labor of love, and we should grant him license to build such a version as a testament to what we can never know, but still have an intense desire to imagine--and now we can hear so many more things that can be imagined than was previously the case. I hope this is just the beginning of an effort to produce "editions of the in situ SMiLE" that will have similar astonishing results. BWPS is clearly not the SMiLE that would have emerged if it had not gotten sidetracked, pole-axed, abandoned and reconfigured, so all's fair in love and ProTools. Let this be just the beginning!

And on such a note, let me second GF's endorsement of the "Smiley" SMiLE by Jon Hunt. More food for thought, more intriguing sonic variations for music that still has mysteries left to be revealed to us...

18  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: 1973 is now up on my site...if you like on: August 18, 2023, 08:57:54 PM
Ian, late getting to this due to a lot of work for film festivals ongoing in SF, but what a great pleasure to have this all-important year in the band's history receive the type of detailed context it deserves....thanks so much for your incredible dedication!
19  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: PET SQUARES #15: Summer Days (Side One) + Murry's Meltdown on: June 24, 2023, 10:51:39 AM
Absolutely brilliant stuff, Adam--thanks so much. Incredible articulation of concepts and ideas that might have been frustratingly opaque or simply glossed over by others, and it's now clear how crucial it is to the continuing evolution of this series--which soon heads into much deeper and more widely-covered territory--that you set up that path with your look at Bruce and what he brought to the band in the studio (carrying over perfectly from the video devoted to him). We can now see that everything was evolving all at once, in differing degrees, and that the evolution Brian was continuing to undergo was radiating outward to (almost) all of the other band members.

The question that I suppose will be answered soon is where to place "The Little Girl I Once Knew" in all of this. I could see a shorter standalone episode for it, or an extended standalone section appended to a discussion of the PARTY! sessions.

That background mishegas with images in the frame behind you was hilarious--waiting to see what you do with all that when it comes time to discuss "George Fell Into His French Horn."  3D

Hoping that your viewership will continue to rise, and perhaps some cross-pollination with the newly formed wing-formation of David Beard, Steve Lewis and Giggens would bring over some of their viewership so that they can get into the really meaty material you're providing to us.
20  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Currently obsessed with the Sweet Insanity sessions.. on: June 23, 2023, 07:36:00 PM
Kudos to Jude, Will, BJL and Tante for refreshing this thread, as it definitely represents one of the most fascinatingly fraught periods in Brian's career (which, of course, is really saying something!).

My new take on reissues is that the team should strongly consider taking a three-pronged approach that expands the archive horizons to three simultaneous periods: 1) a rework of the 1968 period (as Jude and I have "sparred" about in the recent past; 2) the 74-77 period, up to and including selections from Adult Child; 3) if possible, a Brian-Beach Boys mashup possibly entitled IN THIS CORNER..., which captures the work of the two entities in the 1988-91 time frame, with especial emphasis on the Sweet Insanity material. It would make sense, of course, to tie in BW 88 in some way, if the type of rights issues that I suspect are somehow/somewhat in play can be worked out.

If the powers that be can bring these off in tandem, and package them modestly but sufficiently, that might create a kind of "wave of interest" for these more obscure/arcane periods that would gain momentuim saleswise from coverage emphasizing the "multitudes" encompassed in these widely divergent timeframes. The record company could bring off a 10-CD mega-bundle (three separate packages that could also be purchased separately) for a nice price (say just under $100).

Of course, this presumes that they can find suitable sources for the SWEET INSANITY stuff. But Tante's earlier thread suggests that there are some sources for it that might work out, and that the differences in some of the songs from the "Brian" and "Sweet Insanity" sessions would add historical value to our understanding of that truly tenebrous timeframe...
21  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The most stunning Beach Boys AI I've heard yet on: June 14, 2023, 12:43:35 PM
Snagged 'em, Joel--thanks so much for bringing these to our attention.  King

Will be keeping an eye on Dae Lims for possible future developments...
22  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Here's a new YouTube video: 'The Girl From New York City' on: May 24, 2023, 08:07:11 PM
As always, wonderful pop art choices, balanced perfectly between Roy Lichtenstein and the gals in the Archie comics! We're having a bunch of "June gloom in May" here in SoCal right now--with luck the birth of this video will sweep all of that away and get summer underway! 3D
23  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: More tremendous video conversations with Jim Murphy @ \ on: April 21, 2023, 10:41:15 PM
There is also a part 6, another segment of terrific memorabilia and other intriguing insights into the early years of the band:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXGZ32uq_vg

Well worth your time...thanks to Jim and Steve Lewis.
24  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian AI Project. on: April 18, 2023, 11:22:44 PM
Suggest you take these videos over to Vimeo, where you can make them private with passwords if you have to...
25  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: PET SQUARES #14: Bruce! The Bruce Johnston Origin Story on: April 18, 2023, 03:50:06 PM
Excellent stuff, Adam! Those "impresarios" were freakin' unstoppable in those days, unless someone was packing...  3D
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