It's not a bad song. I'd like to see it get an official release one day, but I doubt it'll happen. The original 1983 demo of Black Widow is one of the best things Brian ever did in the 1980s.

What really needs to happen is a MIC-style box set for Brian's solo material, of which there are tons upon tons of unreleased outtakes. I'd be very surprised if a BW solo box didn't see official release at some point (even if digital-only), though it may be years before that happens. I don't see that not happening. Since this track *almost* saw release a couple of times, I'd venture to say that it will come out eventually. It's certainly top-shelf in the unreleased BW solo cannon, IMO.

Nope...he didn't stop smoking until 1994, save for a good portion of the second Landy era. Even then, he was still smoking, just not cigarettes.

Through what period was Brian known to still be toking on the peace pipe? I remember hearing that Landy would give Brian joints as occasional "rewards" from time to time.

Was going to be on the 1988 album (and indeed was on some pre-promo cassettes) then was going to be the B side of " Melt Away"... and yes, a revision of "Black Widow".

Recorded between June 8-14 and 15-21 in NYC, September 16 in LA, also November 18 & 19, all 1987.

Very cool. Since it made it out to some pre-promo cassettes, I would like to think and wish and hope and pray that a decent-ish quality copy of it is floating around somewhere... Wonder why it got cut from both the album and as a B-side.

I think there are many reason POB wasn't a smash hit, despite the high quality of the material. Despite "a career of 15 years making records, HIT records with the Beach Boys" he was still a "new" artist as a solo act and some people still probably though of him as just the drummer – or clubber – of the group.

Add to that a muddy mix, vocals that could be rough to some people's ears and an unfriendly/unflattering-looking cover photo from a guy who was still pretty good looking in 1977 and there are some definite stumbling blocks.

But a question I have for the group is, did anyone else think they picked the wrong song to be a single. I can understand "River Song," for all its greatness, not being seen as a hit, but I think "You and I" was a bad choice. It's a good song, but I don't think a great one.

To me, "Rainbows" would have been the choice. I think it's a better song, more "radio-friendly" and I think Dennis' vocal was maybe the best one he did on POB.

Hypothetically speaking, does anyone else think that the very best shot that any Dennis solo track had at being a hit single would have been "School Girl"?

Does anyone have any further info on this BW solo track?
It's from the Usher period, right? I'm assuming it was recorded at the same time as "Heavenly Bodies", etc?

I think it's one of his best 80s tunes, and very surprising that this tune hasn't been re-recorded (or even released as-is).

So BRI some how kept people from buying Dennis' released material?

If (and it can remain an "if" should people remain unconvinced) BRI or forces within helped (even partially) dampen Dennis' fragile ambition to tour, then it would seem a no-brainer to think that the resultant lack of touring for an album would be a factor in keeping people from buying said product (that the tour would be promoting/creating awareness of), no?

I think anybody in a band situation for that long is going to feel that way at some time or another.  Bands, by definition, are a compromise proposition.  Even someone like John Fogerty, who was basically a dictator in CCR, was frustrated by what he perceived as the band's lack of perception of the big picture (and it's obvious how the other members felt about it).

I'd agree with that... but I'm curious as to what ways people on this board feel that people like Mike, Bruce, or Al would've felt creatively stifled.

Was there any musical direction that they felt the BBs couldn't/wouldn't pursue (which they wanted the band to pursue)? And what direction would that have been? It's just interesting to speculate on the many alternate realities that could've played out in particular eras, if for example any of these 3 guys (or Brian/Dennis, for that matter) could've had the reigns and ongoing support for whatever vision they saw fit for the BBs. The only example (post Pet Sounds or Love You) I can think of a bandmember seemingly fully getting their creative way without politics/others interfering, would be Mike and SIP. I can't imagine he felt stifled on that record, as it seemed to really be his baby.

I think people using the examples of Mike and Carl having solo careers with no trouble from the band are naive in their thinking that things were the same for them in '78 - '81 as they were for Dennis in 1977. Different worlds. Dennis had POB delivered and ready to go in April '77, he had a three-album deal with CBS/Caribou well before the BB's had their deal, and Dennis as usual deferred to Brian and waited for Beach Boys Love You to run it's course before he released POB. That right there must have been painful. To know you have this killer album you've been slaving over for years complete with a major label ready to release it, but again you have to wait in line for big brother's quirky gem to play out. And when it became apparent Dennis would be the first Beach Boy to go solo, not a pipe dream, but a reality with a big label, a big monetary advance and a lot of people saying this record was beyond the Beach Boys abilities....it is no doubt there were people in the Beach Boys hierarchy that freaked out. Too many people on and off the record making that point, the deeper you go the more pointed these statements become...Dennis caught a backlash from elements within the BB's camp. Many apologists want to deny it with "logic" but the historical trail is there. In fact because this caused such a fracture in the BB's infrastructure it was a result that the path for future BB's solo works were smoothed out by Jerry Schilling an others. Guercio made this point to me, Dennis took the hit, things got smoothed out, Mike and Carl benefited. This is not to say Dennis didn't have a role in sinking his own fortunes, he did, no doubt. But the whole obfuscatory routine of using Mike and Carl's subsequent solo efforts as proof that Dennis in no way was challenged in 1977 is bullshit.

Not to mention that none of the BB member solo albums that were released in the early 80s could've possibly seemed to pose a musical/ego threat to the BBs, in any way shape or form. Mike and Carl's albums are simply not very good and/or unarguably bland/forgettable, and I can't imagine at the time there was more than a tiny bit of buzz (if even that), either within or outside of the BB organization, for the music contained on any of them ("Heaven" excepted).

I was going through my iTunes recently and came across a track which I'd almost forgotten exited - the Mike-sung version of Please Let Me Wonder. For as highly regarded and well known a song as it is, I'm surprised this hasn't seen release on MIC, or as a bonus track somewhere. Are the master tapes missing or something? It's pretty much the only time I can think of where Brian tried to have Mike sing a non-shared lead vocal on so sensitive a ballad (in the band's early-ish years).

Brian and Dennis’ feelings of being creatively stifled by the BB brand name, and what was expected to be released under that banner, are well known and documented.
David as well, since his early songs were rejected by Brian and helped spur his desire to leave.

But what about the other guys? Did Al, Mike, or Bruce ever feel creatively stifled, and that they didn’t get their creative rocks off as BBs? While none of them are super prolific songwriters, we of course know that all of them recorded solo albums, for whatever that’s worth as part of the discussion.

I can't imagine why the band would consent to filming a music video without a member (and have the music video edited) if there wasn't at least the possibility, or a moment in time, that the member was not going to be part of the proceedings.

These are the Beach Boys, so not everything has to make sense. In 1965, some people probably saw Summer Days in the record store and thought, "Al Jardine left the band again?"

This is true; the band has a history of doing odd things like this, a la the Summer Days cover. But I guess the notable difference in this case as opposed to the missing Al Summer Days incident, is that this was very specifically a "reunion", and it would seem that the sole purpose of the video being created itself was to highlight the band members coming back together (thus making the absence of a member all the more seemingly puzzling).  

In the world of the BBs, not everything makes apparent "sense", but I'm certain there were/are reasons (however ill-thought-out) that caused Al's absence and David's absence to get "approval" by the people calling the shots. No way these were arbitrary decisions; politics/relationships/group dynamics were surely involved (and as I noted in a different thread, there's no way I could conceive that the Summer Days album cover shoot would have gone on as planned if, say, Dennis or Mike were sick; it would have been rescheduled). I have to think Al still had a second-class BB status to some degree at that time, which probably enabled his absence to not cause a reshoot to be planned.

Regarding the DIA 2012 video: I think the answer that seems to make the most sense to me, is that David wasn't really part of the longtime "group" that was reuniting, and he was still an "outsider" by comparison. Maybe the video being made without him was a test to see if those 4 personalities (sans David, since he seems to get along with everybody) could actually get together and hang out, make music (and a video) together, without incident. Maybe that was the first, most important test, to see if the reunion of those 4 guys, with as much baggage as they have with each other, could hold water, and that initially bringing in another personality into the equation was of a secondary concern. Also, I have to think that the powers that be were maybe initially thinking of David potentially being utilized in a Blondie BAD Tour "occasional guest" capacity.

While I'm very glad that Brian made the call to David and invited him to the reunion, I wonder what Brian was thinking (with regards to David) while in the studio at the time the video was filmed without David. If Brian really wanted David to be in the reunion lineup all along (even before the video was filmed), then one would imagine he would be thinking "why are we doing this without David", unless David's eventual involvement was something that was already on the plate, but hadn't been finalized yet, and that Brian had been made aware of very specific, intentional reason(s) for David's absence at the time of filming.

Like I said above, the only thing that makes real sense to me is that the initial Davidless video was almost like a group therapy session for those 4 guys.

That quote is extremely disingenuous. Landy could have "walked away" from Brian at any time he wanted between 1982 and 1991... but as that would have been walking away from the gravy train, of course he didn't. Even after he was legally separated from Brian, he tried to maintain contact. As for doing what was best for Brian - ask Peter to explain once more what the medication Landy was administering was doing to him. Brian is, largely, how he is today because of Landy's "concern" for him. This is not simply my opinion, but documented fact.

And of course, she's hardly a disinterested party.

I agree, I didn't put the quote there because I agreed with it, but to show part of her thinking.  I would love to read a full interview with her on this subject, not because I would think it is necessarily truth, but to hear the opposite perspective.

The thing is, it may be her "truth", or the truth that she and Landy actually, really convinced themselves of. In reflecting on her entire time with Brian, it's possible that she may feel that Landy and herself were actually acting in Brian's best interest. It's not a concept that makes much sense to us (knowing what we know), but it may come from a sincere (albeit warped) place.

To be blunt: why would anyone care whether it's "their truth" ?  It's just a bunch of crap

I agree that if someone makes their own truth, when the facts show otherwise, that it's ridiculous. But it's still interesting to me, since people like her were actually there and witnessed a lot of things that nobody else did, and can still offer a perspective - even if it's not something we agree with, or if we find truth-bending difficult to stomach. I'd be very curious to read the interviews that she gave, even if the quote from the Landy obit rubbed me very much the wrong way. The human mind can allow people to re-write their own history, to absolve themselves of responsibility/blame, etc. Hell, it's interesting (albeit sick) to think of the fact that Phil Spector and O.J. Simpson may have actually convinced themselves in their heads that they didn't commit murder.

That quote is extremely disingenuous. Landy could have "walked away" from Brian at any time he wanted between 1982 and 1991... but as that would have been walking away from the gravy train, of course he didn't. Even after he was legally separated from Brian, he tried to maintain contact. As for doing what was best for Brian - ask Peter to explain once more what the medication Landy was administering was doing to him. Brian is, largely, how he is today because of Landy's "concern" for him. This is not simply my opinion, but documented fact.

And of course, she's hardly a disinterested party.

I agree, I didn't put the quote there because I agreed with it, but to show part of her thinking.  I would love to read a full interview with her on this subject, not because I would think it is necessarily truth, but to hear the opposite perspective.

The thing is, it may be her "truth", or the truth that she and Landy actually, really convinced themselves of. In reflecting on her entire time with Brian, it's possible that she may feel that Landy and herself were actually acting in Brian's best interest. It's not a concept that makes much sense to us (knowing what we know), but it may come from a sincere (albeit warped) place.

In 1981 Carl Wilson played the Roxy in Hollywood.. And Brian + Dennis were both there cheering him on.. I wasn't there but I read this in a couple of different places..  So if they hadn't heard the LP they certainly heard live versions of those songs..

I'd be mightily surprised if Denny sat down to listen to "Youngblood" all the way through, considering his condition the year of its release.

I've interviewed Alexandra Morgan at length. Her story is a fascinating angle in truly bizarre situation.
She has a clarity about those years that not many seem to have.
I can honestly say that if given the chance to do it all again she would jump at the chance to have never had Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys in her and her husband's lives.

That's fascinating, Howie. When was the interview conducted, and is it published/excerpted anywhere?

I would love to read this interview.  There is a quote from her in his obit:

"His one regret was that he didn't get out sooner," says Landy's wife, Alexandra Morgan. "If anything, he lost sight of what was best for Eugene in his desire to help Brian."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/eugene-landy-472307.html

I would like to think she was trying to be sincere when she said the quote, but it always seemed odd to me, since of course Eugene also lost sight of what what was best for Brian in his desire to help Brian.

I've realized there's quite a few songs that went through highly different revisions or changes, or has a radically different mix that either is bootlegged or officially released. Here's a few I can think of off the top of my head that are my favorites:

Time To Get Alone - The Hawthorne CA CD stereo Mix is longer, more elaborate construction with a few parts
that aren't in what was released on 20/20 LP. Different vocal parts, Brian's vocal is clearer for instance. Seems like another one of Brian's post-Smile modular recording jobs, which there were quite a few.

Cool Cool Water - Early versions if they count to you (they do to me) of Da Da, Wild Honey session recordings, rehearsal version on the Smile Sessions box from prior to Smiley sessions, 3 part version on Sunflower

Hang On To Your Ego - The first 2 takes (only ones besides the master that are fully released or bootlegged) are completely different arrangements. The woodwinds from the tag are way more predominant on the verses than the LP cut version. Take 2 from the Pet Sounds Sessions box is awesome and have been listening to it a lot.

Til I Die - LP version and the great longer mix on Endless Harmony that has an extended intro and is quite different.

Longer "Meant For You" on MIU box, which no one knew existed in the first place.

With Me Tonight - Had a few takes that sounded nothing like what became on Smiley. There's a fast and a slower version out there, also a version with just a bass track. That's not even counting the other Smile material remade for Smiley!

Check out this early live version of "In My Car"...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj5A-597o0E

The verses are very different  (much, much worse here, IMO) from how they wound up sounding on the final version. A lot of work/tinkering with the arrangement (all for the better) must've gone into the final version. Plus, interspersed within this video, I think you can hear some background clips of a studio demo of the song, which also sound way different from the final version.

I've interviewed Alexandra Morgan at length. Her story is a fascinating angle in truly bizarre situation.
She has a clarity about those years that not many seem to have.
I can honestly say that if given the chance to do it all again she would jump at the chance to have never had Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys in her and her husband's lives.

That's fascinating, Howie. When was the interview conducted, and is it published/excerpted anywhere?

Do you think any of the guys have even listened to the  live 50th Annv. album? I bet they haven't!

I concur.

Songwriting credits are a legal matter, who gets the credit corresponds to who gets royalties.  Removing Landy's name is less rewriting history and probably more making sure he no longer got a dime off Brian's work.

Makes sense, but it still seems like an attempt by BW's people to rewrite history a bit. And I can certainly understand that, considering the circumstances.

Not that I would want Landy (were he still alive) to get a dime off Brian's work, but at the same time, like it or not, the song lyrics Landy wrote are in fact his own work (or at least partially his own collaborative work).

Too bad a live version of Summer in Paradise, an awful song, is placed on Made In California.  Another example of Mr. Love's poor choices.

IMO, that "Summer in Paradise" (song) live version isn't *too* terribly offensive, but it sure ain't great. The studio version of "Summer in Paradise" (song) with that loud, cheerful saxophone soloing, happening just as Mike sings the lyric "toxic waste", has to be one of the most bizarre dichotomies in the BB Universe.

There are better studio songs off SIP that could've been in its place on MIC, like "Lahaina Aloha" or "Strange Things Happen".

Back to the original topic, I would think that if Brian has heard a single song off SIP, it would be the "Surfin'" remake. And boy is that a stinker. Only Carl's vocals help take a tiny layer of awfulness away from the track. And he's probably heard the Uncle Jesse remake.

But I would be very surprised if Brian has ever listened to the entire SIP album from start to finish.

Landy's credits on the 1988 album were removed as part of a financial settlement.

Thanks, AGD - I guess that answers that.

I assume Alexandra Morgan's credit would have fallen under the same guidelines as part of that settlement?

And speaking of Alexandra Morgan, as mikeddonn mentioned: has Alexandra Morgan ever said a peep about her time with Brian/Landy? Has anyone ever tried to interview her? Or was she put under a gag-order type of clause about that time period? One has to wonder if she was/is someone who was just as manipulated/controlled by Landy as Brian was.

I think Brian probably wouldn't hate "SIP" as much as most people do here. Of course I don't really know that for sure.

I do *love* the fact that Brian busts Mike's balls a bit on the 1989 campfire video where he brings up "Looking Back With Love", to Mike's supreme surprise/horror, almost a decade after the album came out. Surely the most obscure released BB product that any member has ever mentioned on camera, I would think. That is hilarious, and I suppose lends credence to the thought that Brian has actually listened to more oddball BB offshoot stuff than some might think he has.

No denying that Landy was a scumbag, but it is a (proven?) fact that he did (with Alexandra Morgan) actually write/co-write some (even many) songs with Brian, right?  Songs from BB88, BB85, Still Cruisin', etc.  Knowing Landy's track record, I'm sure there were embellishments of what work he said he did, but it's safe to assume that Landy/Morgan did in fact, unarguably, write song lyrics that, on later issues, their names were removed from, right?

I'm trying to understand how, legally speaking, a credit for someone who actually wrote a song could be retroactively removed. I'm just ignorant on how this could actually, feasibly happen. Was his credit "bought out" somehow? Not saying I want to see Landy's name on BB product, I'm just trying to see how it's possible to have happened, because, like it or not, it is rewriting history, and I'm not much of a fan of that. The BBs do have a history of doing that, though.

Was part of Brian's legal extraction from Landy's clutches some sort of agreement which made Landy recant his credits, in exchange for further legal action for other scumbag behavior not being further pursued?

Side note: I guess it's safe to say that if the BBs were able to have Landy's name removed from future pressings of songs that he actually co-wrote, that Charles Manson's name (had he gotten credited for "Never Learn Not to Love" in '69) would have doubtlessly been removed from future pressings of 20/20.

While Brian often recycled his own ideas over and over again, I find it more interesting when BB members recycle other members' ideas/riffs.


- Dennis borrowing Brian's "Child is Father of the Man" riff in "Little Bird" + "Time"

Didn't Brian actually produce and arrange that Child Is Father Of The Man part into "Little Bird" for the Friends LP but decided to remain uncredited? I read that somewhere, maybe Desper.

Another funny thread idea would be to point out how many times the "Shortenin Bread" riff makes an appearance. I laugh when I listen to "Too Much Sugar" and when it turns into Shortenin Bread for a brief moment towards the end.

Shortenin' Bread Suite:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCvOiwUMNW8

I think that some may be perceiving the unreleased version of the Do It Again video in a way that puts the cart ahead of the horse a little bit. There is undoubtedly an early cut of the video that was made before David was contracted into the reunion lineup. However that version was not green-lighted for release due to the fact that the reunion plan or lineup hadn't been finalized, and wasn't until after David had been invited in. In fact it was Brian who requested that David come out to L.A. and add guitar to the Do It Again remake, which he definitely did. From there he was on board as the rest of the C50 plans solidified. The video was finished to reflect Dave's appearance on the session, notice Mike and Brian are both there in the studio with Dave on the final cut of the video. Someone leaked the unfinished version of the video pre-Dave for reasons i do not know. But the reunion came together like this...first Mike and Brian had to agree to get together, Bruce came along with Mike...then Al was negotiated in...there was a negotiation over which band would be the C50 band, Mike got his drummer and his musical director on board, Brian got his guys on board, the principals were completed when David joined in. Do It Again video was completed. Grammy appearance, TWGMTR sessions, TV appearances, Tour yada yada yada. And regarding the TWGMTR album credits...they are wrong, everybody who has looked at this carefully knows they are wrong. There are instruments on songs, obvious ones, that are not listed in the credits. There are also voices on the songs that are not listed in the credits. I think the credits were done in a rush, and for whatever reason were not complete. Dave's voice may be barely on the album, but I know he did do some vocal sessions as well as his guitar playing on the record, which is also under-credited...the credits missed at least one track he plays electric on, maybe two. But don't sweat it that there was some kind of conspiracy, or revelation...its was just an incremental, chronological, typically messy process. Dave was patient because he'd been told for a year or more prior to C50 by those who matter that he would be invited to participate in the reunion. He was happy when it became a reality and he became a Beach Boy again for a great year.

Thanks for the insight, Jon. I'm super glad that David was part of the reunion for a multitude of reasons. But the fact that the video was filmed and edited at all (sans David) tells me that there was at least a time when the BB were considering going forward without him. I can't imagine why the band would consent to filming a music video without a member (and have the music video edited) if there wasn't at least the possibility, or a moment in time, that the member was not going to be part of the proceedings. Especially for a video as important (at least as of then) to represent the band "reuniting". (While something similar happened with Brian being added later for the video for "Somewhere Near Japan", I assume the reasons behind that may have been Landy using Brian as a pawn or something similarly insidious).

Was this David incident perhaps something over money? I'm sure the full reasons have some degree of complexity to them. I understand if this is a topic that isn't able to be fully explored due to sensitive subject matter, and surely it's not really any of my business, but it has always been something that I've been curious about.

You're looking at that early cut of the video as maybe more than it really was in the early days of the reunion's genesis. If you go back to the press or band comments around the time that session and video were begun, the group was saying they were trying an experiment to see if it worked. Getting back together for that track to see if the reunion was even a possibility. They were pleasantly surprised with the result. I think about 25 people were supposed to see that early version of the video, maybe some of the backers, maybe Joe Thomas' people who were trying to put together a deal with promoters etc... It wasn't intended for the public until it was finished... and until the track was finished, and due to Brian's wishes that was not the case until David put his guitar on it. I don't think we can say his participation was an afterthought because as I said David was told long before this that he'd be working with the group if a reunion indeed became a reality. I was sitting with him one day when he was on the phone with Brian, and Brian told him right then "we'll all be together again someday." That was probably in 2010. Mike and Al both told him similar things in the period after that. So why is he not in that early cut of the video, well, i can speculate a little...Maybe early on JT or some management element thought Dave's role would be just be more of a guest than a full member, i don't know...that's info i don't have any factual insight into...but I know Dave was alerted that if a reunion happened that he'd likely be a part of it. If there is any nefarious element to this it's the leak of that cut of the video, which leaked AFTER the final version had been released. It's as if someone was trying to stir something up that wasn't really anything. Knowing Dave he probably would have been cool if that early version of Do It Again had come out with Brian's approval, and then he was brought in later to be a part of the concerts or the album etc... But the reality is Brian didn't want that version to be the version, he wanted the one with Dave on it to be the first release of the reunion...he wanted the principals to be the four surviving originals plus Bruce. Like most of you i would have liked Blondie and Ricky to be added in some way, but by the time the reunion was being contracted and sessions recorded and dates booked and promotion being planned and executed it was clear the group was going to be Brian, Mike, Al, Bruce and Dave. I think the chemistry proved to be the right one. Something about 5 Beach Boys has always seemed right.

That's some very interesting insight, thanks again Jon. Sometimes a peek behind the curtain (or a video leak, as it were) can make for some confusing interpretations. Those was a really sweet story you shared about the phone call. David seems to kind of be the role of both Brian and Mike's little brother nowadays. As you've said before, David really seems like the one and only guy who can navigate through all the BB "camps" without a problem. Maybe it's because he has way less baggage since he got out before the really wacky interpersonal stuff started happening. I like David a great deal, and as an outsider, to me, he seems to have a truly remarkable degree of level-headedness and just plain coolness.