They didn't include for me the most fantastic Brian edit from the Smile sessions.  The edit was included in Sea of Tunes boot.  Namely, the Brian/Mike duet vocal of the 1st two verses followed by the barbershop vocals over the H&V backing track.  They did include an edit of the 3rd verse followed by the vocals/backing track. 
However, it is no where near the perfection of the unreleased piece.

Still can't believe they didn't include it.

massively intrigued, any info? would love to locate/hear this?

Let me dig out my SOT copies and figure out what he's talking about.

To follow up from my last post, I did some searching and here's the post I'm referring to courtesy of Jeff:

So, everyone's is 99,9% sure that what's circulating out there is all we are ever going to listen to or know about Smile. That's all. I'd rather debate Bambu or the MIU sessions.

That's quite a definitive statement.  And yet, a very credible poster to this very board has heard Smile material that has not been booted or released.  I certainly don't know all the details, but I recall reading about a version of H&V he heard that included a section of With Me Tonight with bells & whistles overdubs.  But you're 99.9% sure that the rest of us will never hear this?  How can you be so confident?

not sure if you're still a regular here jeff, but if so do you have any other info on the above? Perhaps the poster's name, or whether he can be contacted and pointed in Alan Boyd's direction if he hasn't already?!

I think I was referring to a post or posts from AGD.

Here's a link to an archived thread in which you (Buddha) and AGD are discussing it.  http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?action=printpage;topic=9199.0.  AGD says "over 20 years ago, I was listening to a whole bunch of Smile sessions while visiting a US friend high in the thin, cold air, and smack in the middle of an "H&V" session, up popped a longer version of "WMT" that I can only describe as "bells & whistles", very upbeat vocals and lotsa clapping. It was like being slapped in the face with a halibut. In a good way."  He goes on to say that he has not heard that session since then.

The thread I'm linking to is actually later than the date of my post above, but I think AGD also posted similar things earlier.

AGD, does this ring any bells?  Maybe you can chime in...

I'm still not entirely convinced that AGD wasn't talking about the early take for the Smile Sessions' version of WMT, the one with Mike on lead. That has upbeat vocals, clapping, and could be described as "bells and whistles" (though it doesn't feature any percussive instruments persay)...

http://www.mediafire.com/?o1yjjpw1dh49nkd < For those who don't have it. It's bookended by the H&V tag and a snippet of the Endless Harmony version of WMT for some odd reason.

Thank you very much for the info guys. And I'd defintely not heard the same went for cool cool water!

So how did he affect that one then? The running order and splicing water chant into the middle etc? Do people think that was a smile intention he was playing out also?

The water chant was recorded during the Wild Honey sessions, specifically for Cool Cool Water, so I would say not.

Right but in terms of mixing and (for the lack of a better term) sound quality? There's alot that I don't like about disc 1 of TSS

Again... the 1993 box was mastered using then-cutting edge technology. The 2011 box was mastered using equipment and software some 18 years further down the development line. Which would you prefer to use today, a 1993 cellphone or a 2011 model ?

I'm obviously a noob with this stuff but I consider Pet sounds sessions superior to TSS and the GV-box was just 4 yearsafter that. So I'm thinking how bad could the 93 technology be?

I never liked any of the mastering on the GV's boxset version of SMiLE (not that it's complete in any way). Heroes and Villains is basically the Cantina mix with unsorted sections attached, Wonderful doesn't have any of the yodeling backing vocals, Cabinessence is... Cabinessence, Wind Chimes fades out before the tag, Vega-Tables is far inferior to the 2011 mix (the percussion is mixed too loud in relation to the piano, it uses H&V era Sleep a Lot instead of the proper section for it. It sounds like an odd assortment of sections rather than a proper song.) Do You Like Worms is positively muddy, Surf's Up is just the piano demo, Love to Say Dada seems to be missing a few instruments.

Anyway, the GV boxset was just a way to get some SMiLE material out to a hungry public, not to present a finished as best as possible release. Not to mention there's been a ton of tapes discovered from then to now...

- On Top Of Old Smokey (Paul McCartney and Brian in the same studio!)

Has anyone actually heard this one before?  Does Paul actually sing at all on it?

It doesn't circulate. All we know is that it exists.

Everyone's going to go for the Smile versions except for maybe "Wonderful".

Anyone know if "Crack The Whip," and "When I Get Mad I Just Play My Drums," are still in existence?  I would love to hear those too, but probably would never get released.

Jasper didn't have them in 1985 - just "T-TL".

Are the backing tracks still available, at least?

For the last four 1960's Capitol albums, how much could be added? The "Wild Honey" album & some of the "Smiley Smile" tracks could be remixed for stereo. As for presenting "Friends" in both mono & stereo, only "Friends" & "Little Bird" ever received dedicated mono mixes(for the single. Countries that released a mono "Friends" album released a fold-down)

Unreleased songs? When I posed the question(in the 1990's) to an EMI executive in London, I was told that the unreleased songs from the "Smiley Smile" sessions had not been found. Yes, you could add tracks to "Wild Honey", such as "With a Little Help From My Friends", "The Letter", "Lonely Days", the extended "I Was Made to Love Her", plus the unreleased "Game of Love"(a cover version of the Wayne Fontana & The Mindbenders hit) and "Honey Get Home"(or "Honey Go Home") which is reportedly a backing track fragment. One problem in adding songs to "Wild Honey" or "Friends" is that much of the unreleased material was released on "20/20".  As for the "Friends"-era track "Even Steven"? It's a working title for "Busy Doing Nothin' "

The origins of the "20/20" album have more than a bit in common with The Rolling Stones' "Tattoo You", The Monkees' "Instant Replay" or Led Zeppelin's "Physical Grafitti", in that all of these albums combined a half an album of newly recorded material with rejected/leftover songs from previous album sessions. As we all know, "20/20" made use of tracks from the "Smile", "Wild Honey" & "Friends" sessions. It must be assumed that the leftover "Smiley Smile" tracks had already been lost or disposed of by 1969. If these recordings still existed in 1969, they must have been considered not good enough to release.

There's a whole TON of songs and fragments the Beach Boys from that era didn't deem suitable for release (that still aren't/aren't officially now).

- Hawaiian Song/Early takes of Little Pad
- ANY Smile fragments that didn't make the cut for TSS (Ball and Mitt, anyone?)
- The original Three Dog Night Darlin' + Time to Get Alone
- On Top Of Old Smokey (Paul McCartney and Brian in the same studio!)
- Good News
- Good Time Mama
- 1978 vocals for Can't Wait Too Long
- Tune #L (if it exists, all logic points to no, sadly)
- Mona-Kani
- Our Happy Home
- The two Dennis/Kalinich '68 songs
- Ode to Betty Joe and It's Time
- Personally, I wouldn't mind an official acapella Break Away or Friends (that isn't on an obscure single)
- If you want to cheat, you can add Walkin' because it's technically Friends era if you take the vox out of the equation

All of this material is plenty for bonus tracks to four albums, adding in what's already on in terms of bonus tracks. 

20/20 isn't really comparable to Tattoo You - Tattoo You was a collection of outtakes that were dusted off and given new life. 20/20 has four holdovers, one was a single, and another was an album intro.

Weren't the vocals for "Rhonda" traded off between Dennis, Al, and Carl all throughout 1972-1975?

Maybe my recollections are a little fuzzy, but I think I've only heard Dennis sing the lead to Rhonda once or twice. The one that sticks out in my mind is where he flubs a verse or sings it twice.

Carl and Al traded off leads for Don't Worry Baby and maybe others.

I've heard him singing it on at least four (maybe five) live boots, and I know I've heard Carl singing it once.

Finally heard 'Boat to Sail' featuring BW on backing vocals...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77LfceN7ltc

Is it just me, or do Brian's backups sound like his 80s vocals?! (Check out the end for a good example).

It sounds like he's being backed up by a female singer on those backing vox.

"You've Been So Good to Me" on the Cocaine Sessions sounds really similar to another song (especially the version without vocals), but I can't put my finger on it. Did this get turned into a Brian solo song?

A large part of it seems like it evolved into "Love Ya" from Sweet Insanity (complete with the heehee, heehee bits).

"River Song" played at the Hartford concert and one or two other gigs in 1973.

"Heard "Slip On Through" or "Got To Know The Woman" recently on a live boot. Can't remember which one.

"I've Got A friend - I think it was Princeton U (Not Madison Square Garden) in 1972 sung by Dennis.

"Forever" sung by Dennis in 1971.

"Rhonda" sung by Dennis around 1974/1975 and "You've Got To Hide Your Love Away" sung by Dennis around 1965/'66.

Weren't the vocals for "Rhonda" traded off between Dennis, Al, and Carl all throughout 1972-1975?

There's a live "Slip On Through" on Get the Boot.

Did they ever do this one live?  I love it, but it seems like a longshot.  From Sunflower, I'd imagine This Whole World, Add Some Music or maybe Forever (as a Dennis tribute) would be more likely.  I would love to see them do This Whole World, where they pack in more ideas in two minutes than most bands do on entire album!

There's a live "Slip on Through" on Get the Boot.

Where'd the version with Mike's vocals date from (you can hear it on the boxset - the second to last track on the 4th disk)? The same session as the verse rerecord?

I always hear about the wonderful things that've been circulating in private hands for years and years and years, mainly from AGD and so on. My only question is, how do you become a part of that scene? Is it a matter of becoming trustworthy enough to be contacted by someone? Do you need to have material of your own, first? I find the entire topic very interesting.

How'd my favorite McCartney album come up on here?

I'd say a lot of tracks on Ram are Beach Boys influenced. (Back Seat of My Car and Uncle Albert especially)

It's definitely got that Friends like down to earth, country-like mentality.

It'd be really cool if you managed to isolate and fly in the vocals and clarinet from BWPS onto TSS's Look.

(Early) 63 - Please Please Me. I will add that the best tracks from Surfin' USA and Surfin' Safari would make it a fair tie.

(Late) 63 - Gonna have to go with the Beatles here, too. Again, though, I will say that Surfer Girl combined with LDC would make a killer album. I don't blame the Beach Boys or Brian at all - three albums a year means you have to skimp on consistency a bit.

(Early) 64 - Shut Down Vol. II vs. Beatles for Sale - I know this is technically out of order, but it would be criminal to compare Shut Down w/ Hard Days Night and All Summer Long w/ Beatles for Sale. I'd have to go with Beatles For Sale here, though. The filler isn't nearly as annoying on that.

(Late) 64 - I'll have to call this a tie. All Summer Long has stronger high points, but it's too short and there's that damn filler at the end. Hard Days Night may have a lot more fluff, but it's more consistent. Could you imagine All Summer Long combined with the strong points of Shut Down Vol. II, though?

(Early) 65 - Help! vs. Today! - I'll have to go with Today, simply because it's such a massive leap forward compared to the minimal advancement on Help. It is close, though.

(Late) 65 - Summer Days vs. Rubber Soul - Yeah, I'm gonna have to go with Rubber Soul. It DID inspire Brian to record Pet Sounds, after all. This is when both bands started to enter into the halls of timelessness. It's interesting to note, too, that this is the first time either band avoids their typical filler (no covers on Rubber Soul, no talking skits on Summer Days).

66 - Pet Sounds vs. Revolver. This is when both bands start taking things seriously. Revolver is one of the greatest albums in the history of rock music, but Pet Sounds may just be the GREATEST, so I'm definitely going with the former over the latter, simply because it's a bit more timeless than Revolver, and it has more of that dammed emotional resonance.

(Early) 67 - Sgt. Pepper vs. SMiLE - Hoo boy. This is the tough one. The biggest released album ever versus the biggest UNreleased album ever. I'd have to give the award to Pepper simply for being complete, but I will say that a SMiLE finished as it should've been would have stolen the title, no contest, so I guess it's more of a tie than anything else. Sometimes I wonder how an album full of SMiLE holdovers ala Who's Next would've looked like.

(Late) 67 - (American) Magical Mystery Tour vs. Wild Honey - Tie. Flying is a bit fillerish, but Wild Honey is shorter, so it evens itself out.

68 - White Album vs. Friends - White Album. Sorry guys. I'm probably one of the biggest post SMiLE Beach Boy supporter you'll ever see, but in terms of sheer objective quality, the White Album dominates (despite that silly Revolution 9 excursion near the end). Not to mention it's literally three times longer.

69 - Abbey Road vs. 20/20 - Abbey Road, no question. Both albums are absolutely wonderful, though. But Abbey Road is the Beatles' final swan song. Sometimes I wonder how a proper early 70's Beach Boys swan song album might've looked.

70 - Sunflower vs. Let it Be - Sunflower. Too much damn Phil Spector on Let it Be. And you can tell that the Beatles' soul isn't in it throughout the whole album.

So the Beatles got a bit more victories in the same years. It certainly isn't the Beach Boys' fault, they just had an issue with properly ordering their albums and kicking out the filler. Carl or Dennis not blooming fully until '70 has an impact, too - and I will say that Surf's Up, Carl and the Passions, Holland, and Love You are all absolutely wonderful.

For two, you're ignoring Sloop John B, which was placed at the end of Side One, released before the album, and was a Top Ten hit.

I didn't ignore it, it wasn't my point. My point was that a previously released single could very well end side 2. Your claim was that it never happened so no single could ever have been the last track of SMiLE. That claim is - IMHO - wrong.

If you claim that GV might have closed side one because a single closed side one of Today, Summer Nights, and Pet Sounds, I say: That could be possible.

Caroline No was an exception in the fact that A. Wasn't a top ten single and B. Wasn't released in the Beach Boys name originally

A. and B. are true. But C. - "Caroline, No" was highlighted on the front cover alongside "Sloop John B." inspite of A. and B. - is also true. Seemingly A. and B. weren't that important for Capitol.

No, my claim was that assuming a Top Ten hit could violate the established rules of American track listing is unlikely, if not near impossible. Caroline, No gets to be an exception simply because it was released after the finished track list was decided, and again, wasn't a hit. Sloop John B didn't get that special treatment. Again, Good Vibrations was the ONLY single released in the SMiLE era.

If we would go back to Smiley Smile for a moment, Good Vibrations starts side 2 on that, fitting with the established tradition of putting the single on the beginning or the middle of an album.

Was there a small chance it could've closed a '67 SMiLE? Sure. There's a small chance of ANYTHING when dealing with SMiLE.

Is it so unlikely that treating it as something that had a real, likely chance of happening doesn't work when dealing with the precedent and record label politics of that time period? Again, yes.

[Barbara Ann was released WITHOUT Brian's consent]

Okay, for one, Barbara Ann was released WITHOUT Brian's consent after the Party album was released - The Little Girl I Once Knew was the intended single (and it didn't make the Top Ten, which led to Barbara Ann's release in the first place). For two, you're ignoring Sloop John B, which was placed at the end of Side One, released before the album, and was a Top Ten hit.

No, it seems that both the Barbara Ann single and Sloop John B on Pet Sounds were Brian Wilson's ideas, even over the discouragement of others.

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?PHPSESSID=f03a4bae0d7f8dafb7480a289915c56a&topic=4725.0

Just another myth that has been passed around for years.

My mistake - I tried to make that post as myth free as possible, but it seems one slipped through the cracks out from under me. (I would like to point out that I never said Sloop John B on Pet Sounds wasn't Brian's idea, though.)

It sounds like he probably suffered from clinical depression.

But instead of getting his condition treated medically, he turned to excessive drug abuse. This appears to have made things much worse and triggered further (and even more serious) mental health problems which eventually ruined his life. Because of his success, he could financially afford drugs and afford to live in a "bubble" away from the outside world. This would not have happened to an ordinary person. Its a miracle that he is still alive.

Undoubtedly, had he stayed away from drugs and sought medical help in 1967 he would have had a much better chance of leading a completely normal and mentally healthy life. I think we would have then seen his musical progression go beyond Pet Sounds / Good Vibrations / Smile and into an even more creative world.

Drugs destroyed his life, wasted his talents, and deprived you and me of even more brilliant music.

Three things wrong with that:

One, Brian was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder back in the 90's, not clinical depression. Depression doesn't make you hear the voice of Phil Spector in your head against your will, as Brian has reported in the past, as far back as the 60's. Claiming that Brian just suffered/suffers from depression is historical revisionism and goes against what we know of his behavior and his own word during and after that time period.

Two, Brian was smoking pot/hash as far back as 1964, and started LSD in '65. Your post seems to imply that the (illicit) drug use started in '67... which is false.

Three, as hypehat said, he was committed to a mental institution in 1968/69 and apparently given Thorazine. From all accounts, it seems to have done nothing but made the situation worse. (Even as late as the '80's, people like Eugene Landy were allowed to practice psychiatry.) The understanding of mental health disorders in the '60s and '70s was far more primitive than our modern understanding of it, and in serious cases, the ability to help someone afflicted with an ailment was stunted by the lack of proper medicine thanks to centuries of misunderstanding and the use of primitive practices to treat any sort of mental health issues. (There's a noted story of Syd Barrett's band mates trying to get him psychiatric help early on into his problems, only to get turned down as "incurable".)

I knew people would try and use this topic to springboard their own anti/pro-drug beliefs. I don't like it; it's insulting to those who suffer from or live with another who has issues like Brian.

What was it that caused Carl to lose focus/leadership within the band?

That's a great question.  I don't know the definitive answer, but I'm going to take a stab at answering it and then step back and let others who know better pick it apart:

1.  Jack Rieley's departure as manager.  Rieley had championed Carl as leader of the group, and had backed Carl's desire to reinvent the band.
2.  The success of ENDLESS SUMMER in 1974, which basically wrecked the band's reinvention process, coupled with Carl's inability to deliver a hit record for the band (and, I'd guess, the excessive amount of tinkering he did on the IN CONCERT album in '73 causing the band to lose patience).
3.  Ricky Fataar's departure in '74.  A minor detail perhaps, but Ricky was a key in-band ally of Carl's.
4.  Steve Love's instillation as manager -- which basically set the political framework for Mike Love to take control of the band.  It was Steve Love, I believe, that really hammered through the "Brian Is Back" campaign.
5.  Once the writing was on the wall with 15 BIG ONES, Carl and Dennis both basically lost heart.  It's clear from the setlists of '76-'77 that (contrary to popular belief), there was still an attempt to respect the band's later material, but the execution and pacing of the shows were not good, which added to the general restlessness of the crowd during the new numbers, which strengthened Mike's case that the crowds really wanted to hear the oldies.  For the next couple of years it's bad times for Carl as the band's artistic direction drifts away from him, his marriage breaks up, and he flirts with heroin and alcoholism.

Carl pulled back, but never again became the dominant figure in the group, though he played a major role on L.A., KTSA and especially BB '85 -- but even then, a careful look at the credits and listen to the records reveals he did a lot of his vocal and recording work apart from the rest of the group, not to mention the period he went solo from '81-'82, which basically ended in a stalemate -- the band couldn't really function without him nor he without them.  In later years, the power dynamic seemed to be that Mike would be the one to initiate ideas (or at least the ones that were seriously considered), and they would do the ones that Carl didn't shoot down.  In later years it seems more like Carl was the guy who had veto power, and used it, but he wasn't calling the shots.

I've always said that the dual jackhammer of Endless Summer and 15 Big Ones' success was a titanically large blow to the Beach Boys' creativity and public image, one that they still haven't truly recovered from, even today.

I read that interview with Syd's sister, too.  She was in denial.  I'm not sure why family members of mentally ill people feel stigmatized by the label of schizophrenia.  I think that's why now, in the States, the phrase more frequently used has become "schizoaffective."  I'm not sure if it's the medical community wanting to make distinctions or wanting to spare family members or patient's egos.  Like the way it's now said that Brian is not now or never was a schizophrenic, even though he has all the symptoms of the disease and would have been said to be schizophrenic a few decades ago, by the old definition.  Melinda even put out a press release several years ago saying that Brian was diagnosed with suffering from depression only (not even schizoaffective) and that he was only taking the anti-depressant Luvox, and that Luvox alone had eliminated his symptoms.  But Brian himself told an interviewer a few months later that he was taking five medications, including medications normally only given to people with schizophrenic symptoms like hearing voices or having hallucinations.  I'm not sure why Melinda did that, unless she either wanted to (over)protect Brian or got a kickback from the company that makes Luvox, since she mentioned it by name.  In any case, maybe it's the same instinct that made Syd's sister deny that there was anything much wrong with her brother.

Schizoaffective is more a combination of symptoms associated with Bipolar disorder and Schizophrenia proper than an actual attempt to replace Schizophrenia - and even then, it's being debated where or not it deserves a place in the DSM-V.

But yes, people would rather pretend that their loved one is perfectly okay than admit that the person has something wrong with him. (Look at Brian in the '70s.) It's a simple matter that dealing with a mental illness is an incredibly stressful process, especially in cases where there are 'ups' and 'downs'. It's natural that people choose to take the easier way as opposed to tacking such a difficult problem head on, again, especially in cases where people can rebound significantly. Quadruple that when the person is famous - as Syd and Brian were/are. Admitting a famous loved one has a mental illness means more media attention, which the person probably doesn't need.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkMbF4pOTlQ

Just for the people who haven't heard it yet.

[The Beatles]

Honestly the band that should really consider doing this is The Beatles.  Paul McCartney recently put up an archive of sorts but according to the Sulpy boards it's not going to be for the public's consumption. 

Seriously though if The Beatles ever made their entire archives available for download they'd make a killing.  Something to consider though, in these politically correct times there would be certain studio banter and outtakes encompassing all bands that would be better off under lock and key.  So any band attempting to set up an archival site of any type of magnitude would probably have to go through their archives with a fine toothed comb eliminating any potential buzz/taboo words or phrases that they wouldn't want out there.

It would be nice if they did this for the Beatles, but one of the great things about that band was that they generally knew when a given take was a winner and released most of their best material on albums/singles at the time.  I know that there are still some missing gems circulating among the faithful, particularly from the White Album/Let It Be phase, but I don't think there's that much essential material left (The Anthology series covered a lot of that stuff, though they made some questionable decisions there...). 

Obviously, bands like the Beach Boys and the Rolling Stones have a lot more great unreleased material, so releasing it online like this makes a lot of sense.  I hope that the Beach Boys run with this concept.

I still want to hear Carnival of Light one of these days. Ooo, and a proper Kinfauns/White Album sessions boxset would be cool, too.