Fascinating.  I was wondering what the evidence is for this recording being for DYLW instead of for H&V Part 2 as logged?

Hi, I don't think there is much evidence for that. Not a single mix of DYLW from 1966/67 has these Bicycle Rider overdubs over this backing track, only partial backing vocals over the standard DYLW backing track, that seemed to be complete (because various mixes were made) without the full, January 5 Bicycle Rider instrumentation.

Thanks for your mix and the stereo previews! Just curious, which versions did you use for the stereo Wonderful? Did you extract all instruments and voices from the mono mix, or only the lead vocal and the instruments from the Wonderful sessions track on TSS? I ask that because the take of Wonderful included on TSS is actually a different take than the take used in the mono mix...Anyway, it sounds really good!

No problem, thanks for listening!

It probably would be possible isolate the instrumental. With that said, I'm not sure if that's a project I wanna undertake. We're talkin double the amount of time of just isolating the vocal (and that takes a lot of time!). Plus the artifacts would be heavier on the overall mix. There would definitely be some extra phasing issues.

So, being that the alternate take of the Wonderful backing track is pretty similar to the master take, I chose to work with that. The only issue is that it's a bit faster than the master take, therefore some time-stretching is required on the vocal. I could have went with time-stretching the instrumental, but in my experience it's better to work with the vocal.

Speaking of, I wonder why we didn't get the master instrumental take on TSS. I could be nuts, but it sounds like the mix on Disk 1 has slightly worse quality than a lot of the other tracks. I wonder if they went with an older mix and blended the backing vocals in (which they clearly had the multitracks for).

Btw, at some point I'll make a "pack" of all the stuff I've isolated. Maybe for something like "Do You Like Worms", I'll bounce down the wav files individually so you can remix it in your audio program. That one is practically like playing with the original multitracks!

That DYLW multitrack project sounds great!

I don't know why we didn't get the master take, but I noticed and it's been mentioned before that that's the case for some more tracks, also Wind Chimes and The Elements: Fire (not all the takes that are used in the mono mix are included).

Thanks for your mix and the stereo previews! Just curious, which versions did you use for the stereo Wonderful? Did you extract all instruments and voices from the mono mix, or only the lead vocal and the instruments from the Wonderful sessions track on TSS? I ask that because the take of Wonderful included on TSS is actually a different take than the take used in the mono mix...Anyway, it sounds really good!

Thanks, I enjoyed listening to it! I think it's a shame Brian Wilson never really finished The Elements in 1966/67, it could/would have been a great track.

I'm downloading this now, looking forward to listening it!

Hi, I'm also still interested in this project, especially the vintage BW mixes compilation.

Tristero: I agree there's some tracks that I still can't edit myself easily from TSS. I'm also trying to do a complete overview of Smile, a bit like this project:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,850.0.html

The problem with the sources is that we now have more complete versions from bootlegs, or better sounding but edited/incomplete versions from TSS. Which to include? Maybe I should just go for a compilation of everything essential not including anything from TSS, that leaves out that problem.
About simple editing software: I use Audacity, but I only do simple editing and fades, and sometimes a mono mix down. It works fine for that.

Sounds interesting. One thing I've never understood is why the bass just drops out all of a sudden towards the end of the track while the other instruments are still playing.

Are we talking about the final, last take of IIGS? I think the instruments continue longer than the bass because the bass was overdubbed. The instrumental take was played a little longer, and the bass probably stops at the point the edit would come or the track would end.

'zit me, or is the chorus take with the high "ahh"s not anywhere on the box?

I thought it was the chorus take without the high "ahh"s that isn't there.

I actually thought the chorus is a newly mixed version with both vocals included!

Am I the only one who really dislikes the edits at the end of You Are My Sunshine where the sax part is?

Hi Camus, I don't think there were any additional edits around the sax solo, that sounds exactly like the bootleg mono mix. The only edit is that a different take was used for The Old Master Painter, before the vocal starts. (Probably because the vocal mix was cleaned up from an acetate and that they wanted to use the best sound quality availble for each part.)

Hey Paul, do we know that the Vigotone mix is indeed the Comp Reel mix? There are 2 suspicious things about it:
1. The Whahalaloola vocals. They don't sound like the Beach Boys at all to me, and more importantly, they don't have the backing vocals (which were recorded *before* the lead and appear on every other DYLW mix). Also, they don't have the extra "wahalo..." that goes into the chorus reprise and is apperant on every other mix.
2. The more important thing - if you listen closely to the transition into that part, you'll hear that it crossfades, in a way that no other vintage BW mix does.

Do we know what is the source of the mix? How do we know it?

Another question: there are 2 mono mix attempts of DYLW on Secret Smile. Are they vintage, or just bootleg mono mixdowns?

Those things are important to me, as I am about to finish my "Alternate Smile Sessions" compilation and want to include every BW vintage mix available.

Thanks!

Hi Barnshine. I don't have any evidence that the comp reel is indeed on Vigotone, but I read it sometimes on this forum and actually just assumed it is the comp reel that's on Vigotone. Maybe someone who knows more about this subject could give us more info?

And your questions: 1. I thought those were early vocals for that section, and were later re-overdubbed.
2. I actually don't really here that crossfade, maybe someone that knows more about this mix could gives us some more inforation here?

About the two DYLW mixes on Secret Smile: I don't know if these are vintage mixes, but they could be for example 1966 assembly tapes, since the sections are roughly edited in the correct order but still need some final editing/mixing/fadein (and maybe overdubbing). A similar mix is on the Sea Of Tunes Source Tape, but in stereo.

The "da da"s flown in to I Love to Say Dada - the fact Brian on the track is singing some dada's (too low to be heard without headphones) is justification enough for me, and they sound good.

What are these? I was only aware that the pitch shifted vocals (Carl's?) from the Wild Honey sessions were flown in.

listen to Dada Part 2 (May 17), either track 11 or 12, about 1'30'' in.  You can hear Brian (playing blocks) singing very low some "da da da"s - and someone swears they can hear him sing "drink a little."

Hi, I tried to listen for those da da da's but I can;t hear them. Could you please point out where they are exactly, so the exact time and if it's in the left or right ear? I'm very curious to hear them.

To quote The Real Beach Boy:

Keep in mind, the 1988 "release" was intended only to be a single CD, so I'm sure Mark was quite limited as to what he could include. As far as mixes already being completed by Brian, that's a matter of conjecture. There is a compilation reel from December of '66 with Our Prayer, Wonderful, Cabin Essence (two versions), Child Is Father of the Man (two segments), and Do You Like Worms. Those are Brian's original mixes. There is another compilation reel from January of '67 with "Do A Lot", "All Day" (takes 1-2 and 13-17), "Bridge to Indians" (vocal session), "Bag of Tricks" (a single take in two mixes), and "Tag to Part 1" (an undubbed take and two overdubs). These seem just to have been a means to save a few segments on tape.

As far as Mark's working materials, his mix of Wind Chimes is based off of Brian's rough 1966 edit. His "mix" of The Old Master Painter is sourced from Dennis' acetate, so that's a Brian mix. His mix of Vega-Tables is based off of a rough assembly made by Brian in April of '67. Otherwise, I'd say the mixes are basically his own.

A lot of the Smile bootlegs (first appearing in 1983) stem from what appears to have a massive amount of copying which allegedly dates back to 1977-78 with the "Preiss tape" and several hours of other session material (also non-Smile stuff). A lot of this stuff was never "officially" (lulz) booted until the early 2000s.

Another mix/edit I did is The Elements: Fire, taken from UM 17, edited and amplified. I think this is how the track would have sounded in 1966/67 and might be the finished mix for the track (it was edited and overdubbed). I edited out the count in, amplified the track by a few decibels, and I think this might be my new favourite The Elements: Fire mix!

Here's some info copied from the earlier thread, which we don't have to use anymore since we can discuss here.

Yeah love this idea.

So is each track to only feature info on the authentic Brian edits where they exist, ie. the post for Heroes will basically list the February Cantina Edit, then the other partial edits (such as Gee and assorted part 2 sections with Swedish Frog spliced out), the trade-off Brian/Mike partial edit, the final Smiley edit BUT NO CONJECTURE. This could be a cool reference point for people wanting their Smile mixes to be as authentic as possible.

Or might the Heroes post have some kind of conjecture on the form of the song at different times such as this thread here:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,11306.0.html

Either way it would certainly be useful to have some reference point where fanmixers have a springboard if they want to keep their edits as vintage as possible. I think the key will be to keep the info on each track concise and clear. I suspect people will post discussion in the other thread before too long and it will be confusing. Why not just have all the info for the tracks in the first post, and discussion below?

Hey Paul,

That info on H&V looks good, but dates for the mixes would be useful, and also a description of the contents, so for instance:

1/27/67 - Verse Edit Experiment - Verse 1 (Brian/Mike tradeoff), Verse 2 (Brian/Mike tradeoff), Bridge To Indians

2/10/67  - Cantina Mix - Verse 1, Verse 2, Barbershop section, In the Cantina, You're Under Arrest, My Children were Raised/Three Score & Five, Dum dum tape explosion, False Barnyard fade.

That way people can very quickly see what the contents of the vintage edits were on any given date. Just a thought.

Edit:

Also do we have dates for the Early Version Outtake Section edits? As I understand it these are vintage, and as follows:

1. Verse 1 (Brian/Mike tradeoff), Verse 2 (Brian/Mike tradeoff), Dum dum whistle, My Children Were Raised/Three Score & Five, barbershop section

2. In The Cantina, Woo woos

3. Gee, Dit dit dit handclaps, Swedish Frog spliced out, Dit dit dit hoof percussion

To keep this great idea from adam78 going, I'll continue with Do You Like Worms (one of my favourite Smile tracks!).
_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Vintage song structure: This seems to be quite logical, except for one thing: the Bicycle Rider chorus. All the mixes we know have this structure:

Verse / Chorus (Rock, rock, roll...) / Bicycle Rider (2nd time with backing vocals) / Verse (could be with backing vocals) / Chorus / Bicycle Rider (2nd time instrumental OR full vocals) / "Verse" (Whahalaloola...) / Short instrumental chorus / Bicycle Rider (instrumental, ends at 3:30 OR starts again and fades out)

In decemeber 1966 all the vocals except the full Bicycle Rider vocals were recorded. These were recorded as Heroes And Villains Part 2, in January 1967. So, these may not have been part of DYLW originally. Or it could have been featured in both HAV and DYLW, HAV using the January recording. The new TSS uses the January Bicycle Rider in the mono mix for DYLW.

Then there's the song's ending. A Brian Wilson test mix from the Dec. '66 Comp Reel (which uses different Whahalaloola... vocals) ends after the first ending of the BR theme (around 3:30). This could be how the song was going to end in 1966/67 but the full fade miay have been used after all, so we can;t be sure about that.

Vintage mixes: Brian Wilson Comp Reel mix, Vigotone.

DYLW is one of the songs on the 12 songs on the original back cover.

Vintage lyrics were written, and used on BWPS, but on TSS a part of a vintage, and different melody line can be heard.

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Please contribute to the DYLW discussion!

Paul

I'm still working on my own disc of Smile Basic Mixes, but in the meantime I was wondering if someone already made a 'basic' Surf's Up from the new stereo version  of the '66 demo with the backing track? So basically like the stereo vinyl version but than without the bygones and some other backing vocals. (And possibly without the CIFOTM coda, but there can be a version with and one without that part)

I'll try to mix a version like this, but I'm not very experienced in this sort of synching in Audacity, so other people will do a better job undoubtedly.

Just to let you know, I edited my two posts in the Info Thread so that we can continue discussing there, and keep all the information there. So please continue over here! :

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,11641.0.html

The next song we're trying to get a complete song structure/vintage mixes and edits list from is going to be HAV I think.
(But of course discussion about any song is a good contribution to the database, we'll make a nice and comprehensive post from it)

Yeah love this idea.

So is each track to only feature info on the authentic Brian edits where they exist, ie. the post for Heroes will basically list the February Cantina Edit, then the other partial edits (such as Gee and assorted part 2 sections with Swedish Frog spliced out), the trade-off Brian/Mike partial edit, the final Smiley edit BUT NO CONJECTURE. This could be a cool reference point for people wanting their Smile mixes to be as authentic as possible.

Or might the Heroes post have some kind of conjecture on the form of the song at different times such as this thread here:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,11306.0.html

Either way it would certainly be useful to have some reference point where fanmixers have a springboard if they want to keep their edits as vintage as possible. I think the key will be to keep the info on each track concise and clear. I suspect people will post discussion in the other thread before too long and it will be confusing. Why not just have all the info for the tracks in the first post, and discussion below?

Hi buddhahat, yeah we could do that. Tomorrow I'll modify my posts in the other thread and then we could discuss the info in the first post below the first post. I don't know how much words one can have in a post, but I can keep my second post as a spare empty post when the first one is full.

Any info on the "Fire" tapes?  I believe there is a mono mix from 66' floating around out there which segues take 8 (the master?) with take 18 of the tag.  This mix features the crackling fire overdub.

I know that Brian didn't prepare stereo mixes but I'm trying to remember if there is anything (stereo or mono) that segues take 8 with take 18/tag without the crackling fire overdub?  SOT 16 fades out early if my memory is serving me correctly?

Hi John Mill, there is indeed a Fire mono mix with sound effects, an edit of take 2, 9 and 18 if I'm correct. (That's what the booklet of TSS says (although that version is extended, 1 more verse, it sounds very much the same), so I think that's correct.) There is no stereo mix, but there is take 2 in stereo from bootlegs, lesser quality on Archaeology and UM17, better quality but faded out on UM16. There is a stereo assembly on Archaeology and Secret Smile, which might be vintage, which doesn't use take 9 I believe but uses quite a long version of some take (take 2? I have to check this tomorrow) which ends at some point, and after some edit noises take 18 starts.

[HAV Part 1 Vintage mixes]

I just posted Our Prayer in the new thread, but without a discussion here. I think it might be better to have some sort of discussion about every track before posting it in the info thread. If there's anything that you think should be added to the Our Prayer post, please post it here!

Next track, and possibly on of the most complex ones, Heroes And Villains.

I think we can't be very definitive in describing what HAV would have looked like, because there were so many different sections recorded.

____________________________________________________________________

Around the time of the Humble Harv demo (nov '66) Barnyard and IIGS might have been part of HAV ("here's another section"). Late 1966 IIGS had it's own track (as seen on the track list/back cover). The only things recorded for HAV at that time were the verse and the intro (early version) and January 3rd '67 some other sections were recorded (Do A Lot, Bag Of Tricks, Mission Pak, Bridge To Indians, Part 1 Tag, Pickup To Third Verse). These must have been intended for HAV at one time, since they were recorded as "HAV". From Jan. '67 on, Brian Wilson recorded sections for the Cantina mix we all know. This is a completed mix from Feb. '67 and can possibly be considered as a difinitive Smile version. There were still other parts recorded, such as the chorus and a new intro and fade, and various part 2 sections. The chorus was used in the Smiley Smile version, but still many recorded sections remained unused. Then there's the discussion about a possible Part 2. The fact that Brian Wilson recorded some sections under the name HAV Part 2, might indicate a Part 2 mix was considered. The Cantina track was first recorded as Part 2, but used in a "Part 1" mix.
So, all in all, we can't be sure what HAV would have lookd like around 1966/67. Very probably not all parts were going to be used, there were too many parts recorded for that. The Cantina mix seems to be a good definitve version from around fab. 67, but a few months later there Brian might have mixed another mixed (he did actually, for Smiley Smile). There was another version mixed/played, the BPWS/TSS version. This uses more sections that were recorded in 1966/67 than the Cantina or Smiley Smile mix.

Brian mixed some sections for HAV Part 2, even made an edit of three sections (on UM 17 and part of TSS, disc 4 track 24). This might be evidence for the existence of a HAV Part 2 at that time.

HAV Part 1 Vintage mixes:

Cantina mix (TSS 2-cd version), Smiley Smile mix (Smiley Smile), various rough mixes/edit experiments (UM17, HAV Sessions Vol. 2, TSS D4T24).

Part 2 Vintage mixes:

UM17 (also on TSS D4T24), various mono sections, possibly mixed (with reverb, edited) (HAV Sessions Vol. 2).

New mixes: TSS disc 1 mono mix, HAV Sections (GV Box, TSS), "Part 2" (TSS 2-cd version).
_______________________________________________________________________

What do you think, is there anything missing? I know there are probably many essays on Heroes And Villains but I thought I could try to make some sort of summary. Do you think I'm wrong at some points or missing some info, please correct me!

Paul

I made this thread:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,11641.0.html

What do you think of it? If you think there something missing in the concept, please tell so that we can improve it!

(This was the original post for Our Prayer, now an empty 'spare' post if the first post is getting too long)

[Track 1 - Our Prayer]

Hi everyone, as a reaction to this thread:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,11640.0.html

This thread is a thread with all the info, per track, about all the songs, vintage mixes and edits and ideas Brian Wilson might have had.

I think we can make one post per track, and editing that post when new info comes available. All the discussion about the info in this thread can be posted in the original thread.

Let's make this thread a great database about the genuine and vintage Smile!

Paul

EDIT: In this post all the info on every song will be posted, this thread can be used for the discussion about that info, what should be included, about all the mixes, etc.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   
Track 1 - Our Prayer

Original name: Prayer.

Vintage (1966/1967) mixes available: Brian Wilson December 1966 comp reel (source: Vigotone Smile). Edited mono mix.
Complete mix on The Smile Sessions (best quality).
Vintage track order: The only track we're quite sure of where it would have been on the album - as an unlisted  intro to the album, acoording to the session tapes. That might be the reason why the track was not mentioned on the back cover track list.

It seems that this track was complete around 1966. All vocal parts were recorded and the track was mixed.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi adam78,
I think such a database is a very nice idea. This is one of the most interesting subjects about Smile, the vintage edits and ideas. I've already tried to make such a list for every song but it is a bit incomplete. We could make a special thread for all the info, one song per post, and keep this thread for discussions about that basic thread with all the info?
Paul

OK, I'm ready to collect all the mixes I've made into one Basic Smile cd, but I need some small advice. Do you think I should insert 2 seconds (or something like that) of silence after each song in Audacity? I'm not presenting the tracks in a sort of album way (I might do that with some other projects!) but maybe maybe in chronological order. I could insert the 2 s. silence, to not let some tracks start right after the fade out of the previous track. But maybe some people might want to use some of the mixes in a fan mix and than they have to delete the 2 s silence after each track because they want to start the next track right after the other!