[huge]

That's cool you had a chance to play an Eko - it's not something you see turn up at the vintage shows or shops all too often, even though I have a few old guitar magazines with full page ads for Eko, circa 1967, so they were a prominent brand. I was a bit harsh on my description of the Eko, because a lot of those opinions like mine on the Eko are subjective and based on experiences shared. Based on my own experiences, I'd rate both the Mosrite Ventures model guitar and the Rickenbacker 12-string pretty low on the playability and quality scale, because the examples I played weren't too good, actually I've never held a 12-string Rickenbacker that played well and stayed in tune. But obviously they carry a reputation and so many swear by them, maybe i just had the worst of the brand. And the 12-string Rick is still high on my dream list! I also had a chance to play a mid-60's original Hofner violin bass before the prices went crazy, and apart from the fact it felt like really light wood and the neck felt unusual and a bit flimsy/cheap overall, as soon as I plugged it in I got the total Paul McCartney vibe and that thumpy tone from the early Beatles tracks. There is a certain mojo to some instruments! I'd play a Hofner anytime for that reason alone. I'd like to road test an Eko bass as well, if one ever turns up around this area.

Wonder if Bruce still has that bass somewhere...

Depends on which 12 string Rickenbacker you're talking about. A 330/12, 360/12, 620/12, the C series George Harrison reissue, the Mike Campbell model...

I've got the Harrison model, as well as a '78 360/12 (rounded top, with high-gain pickups). I love them both, but I'd give the edge in overall quality to the C, simply because some of the Klusons that Rickenbacker was using in the 70s had too much play / slippage in them. Not all though - I've played plenty of mid 60s 330/12s and 360/12s that have stood up to hard playing. The big problem with Rickenbacker 12s for lots of folks is that the necks are narrow on the semi-hollow models. The solid body versions (620/12 and 660/12) have slightly wider necks and may be more comfortable for many players. My only problem with a Ricky 12 per se is the "R" tailpiece - it's a huge PITA to change strings with that thing (much easier with the Harrison model, since it has a trapeze tail.

I would think it's a Vox Mando on the Fabs' "It's Only Love".  Stones-wise, I'd say "Mother's Little Helper".

I'd say on "It's Only Love" John is playing a 12-string acoustic capoed up high, probably the Framus 12 you see him with in the scene in "Help" playing "You've Got To Hide Your Love Away". George is likely using the Tenny or a Strat to get that nasal tone with plenty of warble on the vibrato arm. I don't hear the Mando on it at all. Can't really think of the Fabs using the Mando on the "Help!" album - "Rubber Soul", very possibly, but "Help!" was more them playing with their new Strats.

I would definitely agree with you on "Mother's Little Helper".

I know someone online at another forum who has a '61 Bellzouki - I'll ask him about how it sustains...

The only other possibility that occurs to me that Kessel might've used is a Vox Mando-guitar, which was used by George Harrison and Brian Jones on various recordings (Some web pages assert hearing one of these on the Beatles' recordings of "Words Of Love", which I'd totally discount - that's a Gretsch Tennessean and a Gibson J-160E, and "Girl", which I'm pretty sure is a capoed acoustic; I'd be more inclined to believe hearing the Mando-guitar on the Magical Mystery Tour album - perhaps on "Baby You're A Rich Man". Brian Jones supposedly used the Mando-guitar on "Mother's Little Helper" and "Get Off My Cloud").

It's about 1965, to judge from the hairstyles and the weight of certain participants. I think it's from a TV show... certainly not live.

I'm not sure:

Damn, a picture was meant to be seen there. Try these links:
http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/73988888

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/73987503.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA548AD3C45E8BB3B6DBFE92DF77F5B896D3ABF378189685BF7CA

Getty Images probably doesn't allow hotlinking, so I just copied it to my Photobucket account.

Now, everybody get to work so we can finally figure out what the two 12-strings were on the WIBN intro.

This according to BehindTheSounds' Youtube video for WIBN: "Barney Kessel probably isn't using a standard 12-string guitar for this session, but rather a custom built instrument- a mandolin body attached to a 12-string guitar neck".

Later scholarship has disproved this.

Quite possible that it was a Bellzouki - an early electric 12 from Danelectro (the one that resembled a mandolin was the single-pickup model 7010; the 7020 with 2 pickups had a pointier body). The 7010 came out as early as '61, and IIRC, Tommy Tedesco owned one, so it's plausible that Kessel owned one or used Tedesco's at a Wrecking Crew session.



The Bellzouki is supposedly heard on the theme from "Bonanza" and Jackie DeShannon's original version of "When You Walk In The Room" (played by Glen Campbell).  The Bellzouki was designed by NY session guitar player Vinnie Bell (who also designed the Coral electric sitar - the body of the Coral instrument looks to be a slightly refined version of the 7020 Bellzouki - no surprise, since Danelectro and Coral were under the same corporate umbrella).

Put a bit of compression on a Bellzouki through a Fender Deluxe and turn up the 'verb, and I think you'd come very close to the WIBN intro sound.

Although its all over the later Marksmen records, David never like the guitar...he said it was hard to play and he was disappointed it wasn't like George's.  He sold it for what he paid for it some time in the late 60's...but not before his father engraved his name on the backside of the serial plate.  Years later, after he realized how rare a guitar it was, he looked for it and heard rumors about a collector in Santa Barbara who had it.  Another 10 years or so went by and David met Jeff Foskett and it turns out, Jeff was the collector in Santa Barbara that had it...he'd picked it up in the 80's when he was in the Beach Boys.  David offered Jeff 10 grand for it on the spot...he paused slightly and then said No.  As far as I know, Jeff still has it.

Carrie - I checked with Bjorn Erikson, and he said that there was an extremely small number of original 360/12s (less than 5 certainly) made in the '64 timeframe with an f-hole, so David's guitar may have been one of the rarest of them all. If the guitar had two output jacks (for the faux-stereo Rick-O-Sound effect) it was one of those 360/12s, otherwise it was a 330S/12 like Carl's which for some reason got 360 inlays. Either way, it's a rare bird.

Carl with the "new style" rounded top 360/12 - can anyone date this picture?

Some players just don't get along with Rickenbacker 12s - they consider the neck to be too narrow and thin. I know several people who've had new nuts and bridge saddles put on their Ricky 12s to improve the playability (I should note that I get along just fine with mine!  )

   
Above are two export Rickys, serial numbers DG851 (left) and DK620 (right) with the Harrison style tailpiece. The guitar on the left was shipped to England in August of '64, and DK620 was shipped in January of '65.


This guitar is serial number DK617, obviously produced very shortly before DK620, and apparently shipped to Rose-Morris in the same January '65 shipment. Obviously Rickenbacker was putting both styles of tailpiece on the guitars at the same time, whether some were ordered that way specially, or just whatever was in the parts bin at the time went on the guitar is lost to history.

Photos courtesy of Bjorn Erikson's Rickenbacker page.



This picture cinches that Carl's guitar had dot inlays, so I'd be inclined to call his as a 330S/12, but Carrie's absolutely correct about David's guitar - that's a very rare combination of features.

David's tail piece was straight edged, like the Harrison model...it didn't have the rounded, decorative R like the Townsend model.  It also had the 'shark fin' inlays.  If you have facebook, there is a photo of Mark Groseclose holding it up.  David and Carl's guitars HAD to be the same. 

http://www.facebook.com/DavidLeeMarks?v=photos#!/photo.php?pid=413944&id=1495273903

Carrie - the photo isn't publicly available, but I've asked David to friend me on FB.

I did a re-read of Tony Bacon's book, and he identifies Carl's Ed Sullivan Rickenbacker as a Rose-Morris model 1993, which was the English version of a US model 330S/12.

However, Carl's guitar doesn't have the "R" tailpiece common to R-M 1993 guitars, as in this example formerly owned by Pete Townshend (one of the few he didn't smash!):



Carl's guitar appears to have had the same tailpiece as George Harrison's, as far as I can see. The "R" was common by mid-64 on Rickenbackers, so absent a serial number to date the guitar, I think we can probably safely assume that Carl's guitar was a 330S/12 which must've been produced sometime not long after the Harrison guitar. The only thing that would change that assumption would be if the inlays on Carl's guitar neck are "shark fins" instead of dots - the "shark fins" would indicate a 360 series model. It's a bit hard to see for sure on the Sullivan videos and the previous picture I posted is inconclusive.

C-Man - Rickenbacker is now producing the C series guitars, which are the successors to the previous V series. The current Harrison 12 reissue is the 360/12C63 (apparently called such because Harrison's guitar was only the second 12 string Rickenbacker made, in very late '63. The first 12 string Rickenbacker guitar went to country music artist Suzi Arden). The current C63 is supposedly more period-accurate (bracing, truss rods) than the V64, although cosmetically it's tough to tell the difference. The V64s are actually going for fairly high prices because of Rickenbacker's very limited production of the C series.



This goes back to my original question - here's Carl on the Ed Sullivan Show with the 360/12, and you can see that it's got a traditional f-hole, as you'd see on a Gibson ES-335. This is very atypical for a US Rickenbacker of that time frame - the only guitars Rickenbacker was producing with such f-holes was going to Rose-Morris of England (with different model numbers).



This is George Harrison's guitar at the factory, before it was taken to NYC for the February 8, 1964 meeting between F.C. Hall of Rickenbacker and the Beatles. Notice the "cats eye" f-hole, which was common to US Rickenbacker production.

Thanks for the warm welcome and I look forward to participating here on the board.

That's a cool pic of Carl from the Rickenbacker ad - it's pretty low-res, but it looks as if it's equipped with "toaster" pickups, which would date it to not later than say '71 or so, but the real clue as to how old that guitar is would be whether it has a 24-fret neck (original 360/12s had 21 frets; this was increased to 24 sometime in the 70s). Toaster pickups can of course be easily retrofitted (Rickenbacker still makes them for their C series guitars and in limited amounts for people to retrofit their current production Rickys to vintage spec).

The pic above the ad looks as if it was taken in Rickenbacker CEO John Hall's office - he has a mini-museum of Rickenbacker guitars on the wall there, and the wall backing is the same :

Hello everyone - new member here.

A few questions about Carl's guitars - in 1964, you see Carl with what looks like an export model version of the Rickenbacker 360/12 - very similar to George Harrison's as seen in "A Hard Day's Night", however, with an f-hole instead of the regular slash/cats-eye style one would see on a standard US Rickenbacker. The f-hole versions were produced by Rickenbacker at the request of England's Rose-Morris (the importers) and weren't really seen with US artists (you do see many pics of Pete Townshend with f-hole Rickys, for example). My question would be when and how Carl got this guitar, and how long did he use it for (there's not a lot of info about Carl in the existing books about Rickenbacker, including Tony Bacon's excellent new book on the history of the Ricky 12 string models, and no one, even CEO John Hall seems to recall this).

Carl received a tribute from Rickenbacker a few years back with a Carl Wilson signature model, which looks like a regular mid-60s 360/12 rounded over top (as opposed to the double bound Harrison style so-called OS model). I can't think of a single picture of Carl playing such an instrument - anyone have a pic of him with one, and again, how did he get it, and how long did he use it for.

Regarding Carl's Epiphone Riviera 12 - I know that he had two of them, when did he switch over from the Rickenbacker to the Epi, was there yet another electric 12 he used (e.g. Fender)? When did one of those guitars get re-necked with a Gibson 335/12 neck?

I recall seeing Carl with a regular 6 string Riviera back circa '72-'73 (I think there's a pic of him playing one on the Concert album) - when did he switch to the Gibson ES-335?