I’ve been surprised as well that they never put out a deluxe reissue of Brian’s “Smile”, with all the backing tracks and whatnot.

THIS. Personally I think it would be cool to have a dolby Atmos mix of the album (not that it's necessary, but it would be another reason to buy the album). Then disc 2 & 3 has some studio chatter, mixed in with interviews from Darian, Brian, Van Dyke (how likely this would be I have no idea)....all of that intermixed with backing tracks, vocals only highlights, etc. Then disc 4 has the first live show (and considering the live show and the original album are the exact same thing, it would be more for the historical significance of it than anything). Get some nice liner notes with pictures from the 2003/2004 era.

Put that in with a remastered version of Leaf's Beautiful Dreamer documentary, and you've got a great set. Also, don't let it go straight to streaming - make it a digital/physical buy only for the first couple months so you could potentially make a profit from the thing.

For me, Brian's vocals on BWPS are actually key -- they're what makes the entire endeavor a discrete artistic entity, one deserving of its own recognition and praise. Sure, most of the material had been composed more than 30 years before. But the arrangement, a handful of new lyrics and (above all) his willingness to engage with the material made the project special. This wasn't a remake, it was a resurrection, one as much personal as it was musical.

So hearing the 60-something Brian doesn't just make sense. It deepens the artistic experience. It makes a teenage symphony to God a parallel old man's testimony of survival. The quest of the music isn't just across the United States, but is from childhood to old age and beyond. It transforms Smile from being an assemblage of mid-60s concepts into a layered metaphor of Brian's own endurance. When you hit that Hawaii section at the end, when the music transforms into a joyous bounce, you're celebrating an artistic renewal.

Wow, I never picked up on this until now. Great post!

Just an observation, but I think the biggest thing hurting BWPS's status as *the* Smile is Brian's lead vocals. If Brian had followed a more normal vocal trajectory, and his voice at 62 had been basically the same voice he sang with at 25, just a little richer and deeper, than its status would be much more assured. But obviously, this has nothing to do with how completed the music is, its more just like...an unconnected fact that can't help coloring the experience of listening.

Yeah, and I'd add that the background vocals being imperfect copies of Beach Boys vocals lends to that status as well...and by "imperfect", I just mean that even with all the talent Brian's band has, it just can't match the vocal beauty/uniqueness of the original Beach Boys blend. They sure do a phenomenal job of emulating it. But it's just not the same.

Case in point, the "Hooga Ha" vocal chants in the chorus of Roll Plymouth Rock from BWPS are emulated note-for-note from the original sessions, but they still sound a lot different, same with Our Prayer. I will say that I love the addition of Taylor Mills' vocals in 'I Wanna Be Around'. I also find the tail end of Vega-Tables on BWPS infinitely more beautiful than the tag on TSS version.

The instrumentals are just phenomenal on BWPS though - even with the MIDI harpsichord. I really dislike 'Holidays' on TSS - as it sounds like it was recorded with a potato, made into an acetate, played 30 times, then revived for the Smile Sessions. Whereas 'On A Holiday' on BWPS sounds so crisp and clear - the flutes aren't awash in analog noise, they are just flutes. And the marimbas sound so clear, you feel like you're in the same room as them.

There are pros and cons to both TSS (and fan mixes) and BWPS. But overall I just see BWPS as a finished product, straight from the hand of Brian Wilson.

Honestly I'm not sure what to believe regarding all the zen/LSD/koestler stuff. However, I am beyond grateful that Bill has compiled all these quotes together for each/every aspect of Smile for us to ruminate on. I remember ages ago Bill was getting a lot of flack for his theories from a certain sect of the fandom - and honestly I don't get why there is so much over-the-top push-back on this stuff.

I get that we want an accurate historical record, but the lengths which people go to admonish certain ideas/theories gets ridiculous...especially when there are obvious layers of complexity with Smile. There are definitely theories/rumors that are just flat-out untrue, and I think it's important to set the record straight, but there is also a lot of gray area regarding many different aspects of Smile.

Edit: and I want to add that I appreciate every person's contributions to this thread. I think each aspect of this topic should be delved into, and I'm grateful for the knowledge that people bring to this forum.

I believe in a multiplicity of Smiles, and I have no interest in saying what is or is not legitimately Smile. Smile contains multitudes. Brian Wilson Presents Smile is absolutely, authentically, Smile. It sure as *hell* has a stronger claim to being Smile than the *imaginary version of Smile I, a fan, have created in my own mind!* And yet, it's also true that the Smile-of-the-mind which has been laid out in one of the multiple conversations that make up this long and polyphonic thread, is certainly more accurate, historically, to what Brian was aiming for in the fall of 1966 than Brian Wilson Presents Smile. These two facts are not in contradiction. They are just based on different ways of viewing the world. The historian versus the artist, perhaps, although it is certainly more complicated than that!

BJL, I meant to respond to this post a few days ago. Your whole post was excellent, but I did want to clarify one thing regarding my "BWPS is the legitimate Smile" comment: I basically mean that Brian has the final authority on what he considers Smile. He is the artist, Smile is his project, and I think he considers his BWPS to be his completed version of Smile. There are a ton of different Smiles, no doubt (I have many favorite fan mixes that I listen to)...and yes, some are definitely closer to a historically accurate 1966 version of Smile than BWPS. But the final authority on what Smile is, that rests in the creator's hands...Darian said that when Brian was handed the final BWPS CD, Brian held the CD to his chest, trembling, and said "I'm going to hold this dear to my heart." - that kind of love for his project makes it clear that BWPS is Brian's Smile...and thus it is the legitimate product.

Basically I think my hard-headed perspective on this stems from some fans just not believing that BWPS is the finished product (which is sadly something I have read far too often in the fandom)...a perspective that I just don't understand. The way I see it, if Beethoven started a symphony in his 20s, shelved it, then completed it towards the end of his life, 400 years later we wouldn't say "well did he really finish that symphony though?" We wouldn't question it because clearly Beethoven has the final authority on what he completes/finalizes. So why is Brian Wilson any different?

Also BJL, all of the above isn't really in response to your post as I do agree with your post and I don't think we disagree about anything. The above comments are more aimed at those who just don't see BWPS as Smile. Your post just made me want to clarify my position on the topic.

I've had some difficulty following this thread, but I gather that there has been some dispute over what "Love to Say Da Da" is, or was, supposed to be.

It seems that Brian is working on the song in some form in late December 1966. Dates of December 22-23 have ( I thought) been out there, and sloopjohnb72 here in this thread has mentioend December 27-28.  I certainly am not one to know whether or not it was just instrumental/piano in these days, or if Brian had already come up with the wah-wah-whoa-ah vocal pattern at this point in December.

In any case, these late December days constitute the time period during which Paul Williams of Crawdaddy magazine visited Brian at his house. Williams recounted time spent in Brian's swimming pool early in the morning of Dec. 24, 1966:

“So at the end of the night we went to the pool, watched by the dogs. I kept my glasses on, because standing in that pool we could see the lights of Los Angeles (or the Valley) twinkling below us like a natural wonder. The water was warm.  Brian told me enthusiastically the it was heated to exactly 98.6, body temperature. ‘So if you get down in the water like this’ (he demonstrated) ‘and stand up, it’s like being born, like the feeling of being born.’"

This suggests that to Brian's way of thinking at the time, "water" and baby" and "rebirth" go together - each are components of one whole conceptual piece; it's not either-or.  The fact that a "baby" song could morph into a "water" song would then seem to be natural and understandable . And in Brian Wilson Presents Smile, the concept is fully realized. The idea comes to full fruition in the third movement, which in my opinion is perfect, as (among other things) it makes perfect use of the "Da Da" concept and music. In those passages, BWPS fully actualizes the idea that Brian was talking to Paul Williams about that night in the swimming pool.

Excellent reference.

The lineage is indeed more than plausible, it lines up very well to where Brian's mind was at, at that time. One of the themes in the movie "Seconds", if not the main theme, is that of "rebirth". In Seconds, the movie that freaked Brian out in Fall '66 because he saw his life play out in the plot, it's a secret corporation which provides a rebirth for those who want and can afford it. For Brian, it's said he experienced a "rebirth" during one of his LSD trips earlier. No dirty laundry, it's been mentioned for many years. It led in ways to the conception of his "Teenage Symphony To God". I wish Bill Tobelman could chime in, I really miss his insights and writings.

All of this begs the question: If this information has been published and on the record for how many years, and the quote is one which other fans have read before and are reminded of thanks to the posting above, why was there such a pushback to the notion that "DaDa" was not connected to the "water" concept? The logic of it adds up, the timeline and connection to Brian's mindset at the time adds up, and on a visceral level it just seems to fit.

And it brings out my opinion which I was meaning to post anyway, after Don Malcom's two excellent posts and insights: The full story of Smile cannot be found in, and cannot be told solely on, the basis of AFM contracts, corporate memos and documents, and reels of tape and their boxes. The majority of what happened was not recorded on those formats, and encompasses much more. I hope ideas and opinions that have merit, and are based in fact, are not dismissed as overtly and sometimes as harshly as they were earlier in this discussion.

Here is a link to his webpage on LTSDD: http://www.goodhumorsmile.com/page17.htm

It has some interesting tidbits in there about the possible meanings behind the song.

I saw the July 13 show in Camden and have been meaning to post my thoughts. As with many of the other reviews I’ve seen, at this particular show Brian sang very little. If I recall correctly, he did California Girls, parts of Do It Again, Be My Baby, and Heroes and Villains. He sang GOK but, as others have noted, really struggled with the higher parts and ended up dropping them down an octave, which didn’t sound great. I will say that his voice sounded pretty strong on H&V. I had really good seats and was seated directly in front of Brian, so I could see his facial expressions very clearly. While he did not interact with the audience much at all (I think he might have said one thing), he was definitely engaged in the sense that he was watching the other band members quite intently and obviously listening to them. All in all, my opinion (based on this particular show and also having seen him every year for the past several years) is that he probably does want to tour, but quite frankly, his vocal abilities are becoming quite limited. Which is not really that surprising considering his age and physical ailments and the fact that singing requires a fair bit of physical strength. I came away from the Camden show thinking that this may be it for Brian and touring - not because of mental health, but because his voice just isn’t really there anymore. Of course, I could be wrong but that’s what I saw. He DID try on a number of songs but it just wasn’t happening and when he did sing, he seemed to be struggling. It is indeed very sad but just one of those things that comes with aging and other physical ailments.  I’m sure it’s very difficult for him to not be able to do the things he used to do.

I am continually impressed by how tough this man is and, as an aside, I am SO sick of seeing comments (not here, more on Facebook and whatnot) mentioning the walker. It amazes me that people have no qualms about making these really ableist comments about the walker as though anyone who uses an assistive device should be hidden away at home and not in the public eye. It’s so offensive.

Al’s voice is still great but certainly there has been a decline in the last year or two. Again, this is to be expected given their ages. On the other hand, Blondie still sounds amazing, but then again I think he’s several years younger than Brian and Al and I think that makes a huge difference.

Thank you so much for this review. And I completely agree with your comments about the walker. Anymore I avoid the threads about Brian's touring on other forums/reddit because of how offensive people can be regarding Brian. And per my comment above, I completely understand that people have concerns (some of them valid due to how Brian has acted on stage recently), but you hit the nail right on the head: "It amazes me that people have no qualms about making these really ableist comments about the walker as though anyone who uses an assistive device should be hidden away at home and not in the public eye."

Brian has layers upon layers of complexity going on - mentally, physically, emotionally, etc.. Brian gets panic attacks for seemingly no logical reason. Brian hears voices in his head daily (voices that tell him he is no good, that his music sucks, etc). He has some major back issues. He has mild manic depression (last I heard, anyways). So when Brian looks worried on stage, he may be hearing voices. When Brian looks like he's in pain, he's probably feeling pain in his back.

And sadly Brian is going to hear those voices at home. He's going to feel the pain in his back at home. He's perhaps going to feel more depressed cooped up at home than out on the open road. There is no easy answer. It's not black and white. The answer isn't to cover our eyes and say "everything is totally fine!" and the answer also isn't "Clearly Brian is being controlled and he is being forced to tour against his will so Melinda can keep raking in the money."

I think both of those extremes completely ignore the complexity of Brian's situation.

I'm always there to defend Brian's stage presence. But if he really isn't happy being there, if he is scared and just wants to go home, I hope/pray that those around him are encouraging him to do whatever makes him comfortable. While I firmly believe that Brian being out/active is really good for him mentally, perhaps the physical toll is catching up with him (his back) and it is affecting (or is it effecting? I can never got those right) his mentality in a very negative way. I do believe his band, those around him have good heart's and want what is best for Brian.

And I do believe that Brian wants to tour (I just don't see who really benefits from forcing an 80 year old man to tour - the Wilson's make bank off of royalties and I'm sure other business ventures), and if he's happy for the most part, then he should do what he wants to do. But I also hope his doctors are keeping an eye on him (I'm sure they are). I also hope Brian doesn't feel obligated to tour. His band can literally keep touring without him, heck they could probably release some pretty amazing albums themselves and continue to make a great name for themselves. He doesn't need to prove anything to anyone anymore. Perhaps he just doesn't want to let go of life...to be forced to give up something that has defined him his whole life.

Gotta be real sad.

[Is it SMiLE as it would have been if completed in 1967? I don't think so, but in another sense I don't think this question even really makes sense.]

I agree 100% with Rab on this. BWPS is SMiLE as completed and released by its authors, and it's a very powerful artistic statement, imho. Is it SMiLE as it would have been if completed in 1967? I don't think so, but in another sense I don't think this question even really makes sense. A core theorem of logic is that if you start with a false premise you can, formally, "prove" anything.

That's how I've learned to see it over time. A finished 1967 Smile never existed - it was completely impossible for it to be finished in 1967 (otherwise it would have been finished). There is no alternate timeline, no reality where the stars aligned and Brian was able to complete it in 1967. Sure, we can speculate what an alternate universe would look like (which is a lot of fun), but in the end, in our universe all other possibilities were impossible other than the reality that actually took place.

Instead, it took 40 years for Brian to be emotionally/mentally ready for Smile to be released. It took 40 years, during which time fan theories were created, and some of those theories actually became a beautiful part of Smile...The mythos of Smile became part of Smile itself - what other album has ever done anything like that? I think that is pretty cool, myself.

Brian Wilson, THE composer, THE architect, released Smile in 2004. Perhaps because people don't see Brian as a real composer post-19-- (pick your era where you think Brian stopped being the Brian Wilson) that BWPS is looked at as a novelty item, a gimmick...It isn't taken seriously by some perhaps because Brian isn't the same guy as he was in 1967. So perhaps some people think that only a 1967 Brian can complete a vintage version of Smile. But I don't believe that for a second. Perhaps because Darian helped Brian out a lot in the tracklisting makes some people think it isn't a legitimate tracklist.

Brian Wilson, like every single human being, is changing every second. The Brian Wilson from December 1966 was a different guy than the Brian Wilson from August 1967. That fact doesn't make an August 1967 Smile any less legitimate than a June 1967 Smile. Same for the 2004 Smile. Brian in 1967 was bouncing ideas off of others regarding the music. Brian getting advice in 2004 is technically no different from Brian getting advice in 1967.

The way I see it: whether it takes 5 months or 40 years to make an album, whenever it gets completed, that is the album. Is "Chinese Democracy" any less of an album because it took 20 years to be released? It may not be the album every GnR fan hoped for, but it's the "Chinese Democracy" that Axl Rose finally released to the world. It was an album shaped by the years, shaped by the different influences that passed through Rose's life through those 20 years. But it is still "Chinese Democracy".

We don't get to decide what is a legitimate album and what isn't - only the composer/creator of the music can do that. Brian put his stamp of completion on BWPS in 2004. I personally respect that decision.

Also want to add: I appreciate everyone's input in this discussion. The above is my opinion, and I completely understand why some feel differently. I'm not saying that people who have posted in this thread feel the way I speculated above. They are just my thoughts about different perceptions I have come across throughout the years of being a fan. If people don't think BWPS is Smile, that is totally cool and I respect their opinion, I don't agree with the opinion, but I understand where they are are coming from.

It's bedtime, but I'm going to say one last thing, a little bit of a change in topic, but I've been thinking about Smile all evening and I want to say it.

Smile was not finished, not in 1967 and not in 2004. But I believe it was close enough, that we have enough of it, to understand, conceptually, intellectually, and also in our hearts, what a finished Smile would have been, what it would have meant. Good Vibrations, Cabinessence, Wonderful, we have these songs in versions that are, for all intents and purposes, finished. The first two minutes of Surf's Up with Brian's vocal on the 1966 backing track. It is not hard to imagine a version of Surf's Up in which all three movements are produced to the level of that first section. It is not hard to imagine A Do You Like Worms finished to the level of Cabinessence, or the Fire Music brought to the level of Good Vibrations, howling, roaring, perfectly produced. I can imagine that album. Sometimes, late at night, with the lights off, sitting in silence, I can almost *hear* it.

And I believe, with all of my heart, that that album, that the album Brian Wilson came *this close* to finishing in December of 1966, would have been one of the great achievements of the human mind. That it would have stood alongside Van Eyck's Ghent Alterpiece and Michelangelo's Last Judgment and the Elgin Marbles and the Benin Bronzes, alongside Beethoven's late period and Bach's organ music and New Orleans jazz, against Einstein's theory of relativity and Tolstoy's novels. Pet Sounds is my favorite album of all time, but I'm not sure it belongs on that list, not really. Honestly, there is not a single piece of popular music recorded in the 1960s that, in my opinion, belongs on that list, that belongs among *the greatest creative acts of human civilization.* But that is what I hear in the Smile music. A bid for *that* list. That list of human invention and creative potential pushed to the absolute limit.

And so I love Smiley Smile, I really, really do. But f*** Smiley Smile. Smiley Smile is a great album. It's not Smile. Nothing is Smile, nothing can replace that incomprehensible loss, not how I see it.

Smile was finished/completed in 2004. Brian Wilson, the author of the music, THE guy to have the final say in what he wanted to present to the world, said it was finished in 2004.

Your version of Smile isn’t completed and will never be complete (because it just doesn’t exist). But Brian’s Smile is complete - and that is the one that counts.

I often wonder what 400 years will do to this music. Some people look at the 2004 Smile has a hokey rip-off of what a 1967 Smile would look like…that 2004 Smile is a counterfeit mostly created by a fan who based the tracklisting off a faulty fan-theory. That the MIDI harpsichord is a crime against the soul of the original music. That not having The Beach Boys sing on it ruins the genuine nature of the album.

But in 400 years, will it all blend together? Will people listen to the 2004 Smile as a complete masterpiece? Or will it be completely forgotten about? Will people care that original The Beach Boys aren’t on it? Or will they appreciate the album for its brilliant compositional/sonic architecture?

By the way, how much interest is there in the actual facts regarding dates and documents and when splices were made, etc? I would think that would be right up the alley of every Smile fan on earth, but I've been surprised to see a lot of the info, which has been revealed here for the first time, completely ignored! Brian splicing the Worms verse from Worms (which he'd otherwise just chopped up for Heroes) and planning to use it as an intro for the original Da Da, via notes on the tape box? I thought that would get a big reaction!

Putting aside the debates regarding contemporary quotes and what they mean re Smile's transition into Smiley Smile, I'm surprised that most of the new information that's being given in this thread from original documents is kind of getting washed over. That's the part that fascinates me the most - the music, and exactly how, when, and where it was made. Through that, Brian's rapidly changing plans can be traced, as can his increasing interesting in minimal tracks, and instruments that are stacked by himself, rather than played by a live ensemble.

Just wanted to pipe up and say that I've appreciated the discussion in this thread and the very interesting, informative, and thought-provoking contributions that've been made.

And it got me in the mood to listen to the Smiley material on the Sunshine Tomorrow releases...so thanks all around!

This.

Quite frankly I love all the discussion, all the theories. Heck, it’s why I’ve had Bill Tobelman’s site linked in my signature for years. I remember the downright brawls people would get into regarding his theories, and it was all great stuff.

Ever since this topic started I’ve been listening to Smile tracks, blasting BWPS, and listening to Smiley. So thanks for starting the thread, and thanks to everyone who has contributed. It has brought a bright shining light into my world the last couple days.

Separate issue and just curious on the opinions, but does the track's placement on the BWPS Smile with Van Dyke's lyrics hold any weight in assumptions about the track's original possibilities in the original Smile plans?

My controversial opinion:

1) Smile (like any album ever made) was a constantly evolving and metamorphosing set of ideas. Those ideas are not set in stone until the artist decides to officially share those ideas with the world in the form of a finished album.

2) In 1966/1967 those early Smile ideas were molded by both Brian and the people that surrounded him. Brian of course being the one with the final say, but he was not a sole person in a vacuum - he was surrounded by artists, musicians, creatives who helped mold his ideas about the album.

3) post-1967, decades pass and during which Smile fragments leak. Theories about Smile’s track listing, demise, overall themes, etc are created.

4) those decades worth of fan-theories have an obvious impact on the track listing for BWPS. Some fans claim that Darian’s fan-theory involvement ruined the possibility of BWPS being more of a faithful rendering of a 1967 Smile.

But there was no 1967 Smile. The faithful rendering of Smile is BWPS. BWPS is the Smile that Brian Wilson completed and sent out into the world. It doesn’t matter that BWPS uses fan theories that probably “incorrectly” use Dada as a water element. Brian released the idea to the world that Dada is a water element song - it doesn’t matter who influenced Brian on this, fact is that Brian agreed with it and recorded it into the concept. As I stated in point #2, Brian always had outside influences that helped evolve his ideas for Smile. So whether it’s outside influences in 1966 or 2003, Brian used all those different ideas and it culminated into the release of BWPS.

BWPS is the greatest concept album ever made. Not only because the aura of the initial Smile sessions is vividly infused into each track of the album, but also because it’s resurrection was decades in the making - this isn’t an album that was put together in a 2-month time period. It’s recordings were/are the stuff of legends. It took 37 years for this album to be completed. The huge reason for it’s successful resurrection was due to a guy who was just 4 years old when those original sessions were taking place. And that guy is one of the most genuinely dedicated fans of Brian’s music to ever live (i don’t mean to gush about him, but he does put his heart and soul into everything that revolves around Brian and his music). So who better to help Brian finish his masterpiece?

Anyways, long story short: Dada probably wasn’t originally intended to be a water element, but all ideas evolve. Was Sloop John B originally intended to be on Pet Sounds? Perhaps not, but even if it wasn’t it doesn’t matter - Brian Wilson had the final say in it, and it’s now an official part of Pet Sounds.

"That the Smile recordings were abandoned the next day does not appear to be reflected in the work the day before. And Smile ‘legend’ would have one believe that these sessions became increasingly weird, and increasingly ‘out of control’. But the recordings show the same Brian Wilson that all the Smile sessions reveal: a composer and a producer in control."

So the accepted history is utter rubbish and probably simply to protect the brand.  And it's funny how the message changed over time from 'it's a nuclear bomb' to 'let's release it' in 2011.

Yeah it's rubbish. The sessions were going just fine circa February 1967. Nothing to see here, folks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oz3FWFn5sk
^ Brian at the top of his game, obviously. You can tell it's the same guy who wrote God Only Knows and Our Prayer.

This is like stating that "'Cassius' Love vs 'Sonny' Wilson" is evidence that Brian wasn't on top of his game in 1964 lol. Is "'Cassius' Love vs 'Sonny' Wilson" a track that people flock to listen to? Nope. But it's a representation of Brian's attempt at making people laugh. Brian was working on a humor album during Smile, right? I'm unclear on this part of the history)? He was big into the Koestler book that stated that laughter is the key to people getting along (paraphrasing). So hence he did some goofball tracks sandwiched in between sessions for Heroes and Vega-Tables...Both of which are powerhouses of creativity (especially the Smile Sessions version on Vega-Tables).

'Teeter Totter Love' is part of a pattern of Brian's humorous creativity that was evident all throughout his 60s recording career.

Or will they do a sort of "Bedroom Tapes" type of set to present the 1974-1977-ish material?

YES. PLEASE. Was it an LA Times article that delved into 'The Bedroom Tapes' some many years ago? Got me so hyped that maybe some record exec would see the popularity of the article and take a chance on such a set. Years later I get that there is copyright extension stuff to consider, as well as a whole slew of band politics. But at the time I was so hopeful for a Bedroom Tapes set. Perhaps one day...

I don't think that Smiley Smile is that dark.  They say it is the ideal chill out album for those coming down from LSD and has been used to help people in this regard.  It's supposed to be the good humour album.  I think Smile is darker or at least more serious.  Of course the other band members hated Smile presumably they hated Smiley Smile less.  VDP's lyrics were dropped from Vegetables and Fire converted to the Woody Woodpecker Symphony which is a little more cheerful than Brian dying in flames and presumably the band preferred removing VDPs lyrics which were known to be a point of contention.
I'd say that the dramatic change was down to Brian wanting to progress (rather than die which is how he sees the alternative) and his collaboration with VDP who brought other aspects to Brian's work and a whole net work of other meanings.

I completely respect your viewpoint (and your explanation makes sense to me), but I have such a drastically different opinion about the Smiley tracks.

While the original Fire song is rather out there, the creepy deep "whomp whomp" (really for lack of a better way to describe it ) that start the Woody Woodpecker track (and is repeated throughout) is so darn haunting. And 'She's Goin Bald' gives me the most disturbing mental image of some poor woman suffering from a severe case of alopecia. That and the organ playing in many of the songs just puts me in a weird mood. Never done LSD, will never do LSD, but for the life of me I don't see how this isn't a one way ticket to a bad trip! But then again, I have no experience with it, and am completely ignorant about such matters.
_______

I can see why Brian would want to progress in his style/sound - he really brought about this stripped down style that bands started adopting post-67. But it is such a crazy shift - I just can't believe the guys were okay with it, especially after the wild success of Good Vibrations.

[But Smiley Smile is so incredibly weird, and so incredibly Brian...]

It has caused some pretty intense arguments in the past, but I still have the opinion (based on the actual timeline, reports from those involved, and interviews with band members from 1967) that the Derek Taylor announcement was premature, if not inaccurate, and that the two weeks between that last "DaDa" session in May, the Beach Boys returning from a European tour where they got some bad reviews in the press, and work starting the first week in June on what would become the "Smiley" working method are KEY and absolutely essential in understanding why things happened as they did.

Literally everything about the band's working methods in terms of recording and production changed in those two weeks, late May into June 1967. If the term to describe the changes could be a "seismic event", it would be appropriate. Things simply do not change that drastically in that short a time without a major catalyst leading to the changes.

One of the main events was the Beach Boys returning from Europe shouldering some criticism about their live sound versus the records.

Unfortunately very few have spoken about those two weeks in late May '67 with any specifics, except perhaps Nick Grillo. And I doubt we'll ever know, because I think some seriously heavy discussions happened that went beyond "what's our next album?".

Yea, on some level I think there must have been an explosive confrontation of some sort within the band in the transition to Smiley Smile... I mean, how could there not have been? But then, some things simply cannot be known. And at the same time, if they'd gone straight to Wild Honey, it all would make perfect sense. But Smiley Smile is so incredibly weird, and so incredibly Brian...

This is exactly what confuses me about the SMiLE to Smiley Smile transition. The music took such a dark/stark turn - it went from mostly happy and jovial to downright haunting. He went from the pinnacle of wall-of-sound with Pet Sounds (a sound that Brian had been using for years that led to so much of their success and fame) to the haunting desolation of Smiley Smile virtually overnight.

Did Brian really think that such a dramatic shift in sound was their key to a successful record? What did the other band members think of the shift in sound?

Guitarfool's quote above "One of the main events was the Beach Boys returning from Europe shouldering some criticism about their live sound versus the records." sheds some light on this, but I just can't see the guys (or Brian for that matter) saying "hey, we got a number 1 record with Good Vibrations, I bet our Woody Woodpecker song is really going to blow their minds next!"

I am way oversimplifying things, and I'm not staunchly fixed in my viewpoints regarding this era (mostly because it is just too confusing of a time, with so many variables, that it's impossible for me to have a logical/concrete perspective on it). But I'd also like to learn more about the band/Brian and this dramatic shift.

Okay, did a little digging:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,11408.msg243878.html#msg243878

I actually synced up two different versions: One with the line doubled during the verse, to show what the melody (obviously with different lyrics each time) would have sounded like over the full verse, and a second with the line set against the BWPS version (still twice, in a different place the second time) to explore the call-and-answer/multiple melodies avenue.

Thanks to Hypehat's help, I uploaded the two songs.  Questions?  Thoughts?

http://www.mediafire.com/?jhz7t9q1o7g53mb

http://www.mediafire.com/?dztw18x2sazl1qb

The first link doesn't appear to work, the second link leads to a WAV file with a mashup of the 2004 RPR and the new (vintage) melody.

Honestly it kinda broke my heart when that small snippet of the original melody for DYLW was unsurfaced when the Smile Sessions came out. It is so different from the BWPS version (and so much better)...it really is a tragedy that the lead vocal was never recorded. I'm so glad that the melody was brought to light, but it also shows us a glimpse of what could have been.

Pardon my ignorance, but what does this refer to? Where specifically can I find it on The Smile Sessions?

Track 1 disc 3 (‘Do You Like Worms?, Part 1’), at the 3:17 mark. It starts with Brian talking to VDPs: “Right, Van?” and then he starts singing the melody.

My memory is very hazy regarding this, but I could’ve sworn that someone did meld the two together. But it has been so many years that I can’t be sure of it. If anyone remembers anything like this please feel free to post!

Smiley Smile is Smile. 

Smile, especially BWPS always puts a smile on my face, whereas Smiley Smile just puts me in a weird/dark-ish mood. So from a historical context I can see why some would think that Smiley Smile is Smile, but from the context that Brian wanted to make people smile when listening to the album, I will always think the original material (or BWPS) is Smile.

Side note, I actually vastly prefer BWPS over the original Smile material - even with the non-Beach Boys voices. It is just so complete, colorful, and happy.

BWPS is Smile

Do You Like Worms? - instrumental track needed to be assembled, lead vocal needed to be recorded. This one is a tragedy, in my view, because the Beach Boys could have done this at any point up to the 1980s and given us a track as finished-sounding as Cabin Essence or Surf's Up, two other songs left in fragments and missing vocals in 1967.

Honestly it kinda broke my heart when that small snippet of the original melody for DYLW was unsurfaced when the Smile Sessions came out. It is so different from the BWPS version (and so much better)...it really is a tragedy that the lead vocal was never recorded. I'm so glad that the melody was brought to light, but it also shows us a glimpse of what could have been.

As The Beach Boys and Metallica are my two favorite bands , and Kate Bush is one of my daughter’s biggest influences, I might actually start watching the show even though I am not a TV person* by any stretch.

*Seriously. I watch stuff on YouTube mainly

The first season is still the best I'd say. As usual, so many people have to either LOOOOVVVE something or hate hardcore on it, and this show is almost annoyingly hugely popular, so it's easy to hate on it. I just enjoy it for what it is (and not in a patronizing "for what it is" way). The show is not like groundbreaking work. And it's definitely built on pastiche in varying ways over the seasons. People who grew up during the show's timeframe (currently 1983-1986) seem to either really love it or hate it for being too pandering. If you're *super* familiar with a ton of 80s genre movies, then the show could easily seem too derivative.

If you're into 80s synthy scores, it's got a nice score through all the seasons.

The show has gotten somewhat more pandering and bloated and fan-servicey as the seasons have gone on.

I gotta say I'm not into the horror genre much at all (this isn't hardcore horror, but it is certainly in the weird/creepy/horror realm), but I really liked this show. I haven't started the latest season, just been too busy. But the first season is really well done - keeps you on the edge of your seat, has its touching moments, and the acting is great - they picked some really good actors to play the kids. The 2nd and 3rd seasons are good too. But yeah, the first one is definitely my favorite.

Looking forward to hearing The Beach Boys in the new season!

I think I have the latest version (in a box currently). But man I remember getting this book and being blown away by it. I still am - literally everything having to do with SMiLE - I don't know if such a book of this calibre has ever existed for another album. Like do books like this exist for Sgt. Pepper?

The amount of ads, newspaper clippings, etc about this album - it is just astounding. In the top 3 of my favorite books in my Beach Boys collection.

I thoroughly pissed off about EH (there's an oxymoron if ever there was one)!  I was in an on topic discussion defending the book against some silly criticisms when one of the moderators took my posts down and emailed me to say I wasn't to post on that thread any more.  I told him posting on EH was a total waste of time.  I spent time and effort checking the content of my post for errors and accuracy, made sure it related to the book and pffft - it's gone.  

I see your current review thread there is being met with that patented Endless Harmony kindness. Kinda odd they've had a lot of locked threads lately - I guess their harmony isn't so endless after all. 

I didn't get as far as I wanted to in the Leaf book this past weekend - not the fault of the book, just a hectic schedule. But what I did read was absolutely wonderful. All the intro material has me excited for both the early 60s stuff and the post 85 era...mostly the latter as I've always wanted to learn more about Brian's activities during the 90s. Hopefully that section does not disappoint.

I was excited to hear Al allude to the idea that the new CATP/Holland set will have new remixes (he made it sound like the albums would be remixed). Al could be wrong about that (and perhaps I just misunderstood him) and perhaps we're just getting a remaster. But seriously, I would rather hear a new mix of these tracks since I can listen to the original mixes on Apple Music or in my own stash of CDs currently.

I really really dug that new Marcella too. Makes me happy they're trying new things.

Actually this is a great look into the philosophy of each forum. Petsite posted the same thing on the EH forum, and the response from leadership is quite different there than here. Billy agreed with the initial post and explained his perspective. DrBeachBoy on the other hand states there are no "Kum-bay-a moments" on these forums. literally painting himself as a Wyatt Earp character protecting the streets. Only given the recent dust-up with Howie Edelson, he is not as he says "trying to keep the peace" but he is a huge part of the reason why Howie Edelson walked out of Tombstone under a barrage of insults from a vast swath of members there.

It is stupid board drama, but it is rooted in the fact that a lot of posters were booted off of here for breaking forum rules - then they all congregated on the PS forum and then the EH forum. So when those people who broke rules continue to lie about people here, when they continue to insult people, of course we are going to set the record straight. When a Beach Boys insider gets run out of Dodge, I think it's fair to comment on the reasons it happened.

The silly thing is that I was really hoping that this set would bring a lot of people together - it is an amazing set with some really good mixes. But instead it just further divided people. Like Howie says, we don't all need to think the same exact way and have the same taste (what a boring world that would be). But there is such a thing as having tact/respect when talking to (and about) the people who have made it their life mission to make sure The Beach Boys keep releasing tracks.