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680601 Posts in 27601 Topics by 4068 Members - Latest Member: Dae Lims March 29, 2024, 02:58:32 PM
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9176  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Paley Sessions arrangements on: January 18, 2012, 10:31:34 PM
You can hear where Paley is coming from on a track like "Best Day Ever" from the Spongebob Squarepants soundtrack. The production, songwriting, and specific *sounds* are Today and Summer Days era Beach Boys/Brian. That really stood out when I first heard that song, and it really made me smile and made me a fan. Think of how many kids under a certain age heard that tune and were digging the sounds, and hell probably many of their parents didn't even know they were grooving to sounds that were hip way back in 1965. Good then is good now. I think Paley does the retro sound quite well.

One thing to consider too is just how ridiculous "going retro" can be in the wrong hands. There is a  Hal Blaine interview where he described a session he did for the Wilsons, trying to capture their dad's pet sounds on a then-modern recording, and the producer took it too far, according to Blaine, just adding all kinds of sounds and percussion and whatnot and it ended up being too much.
9177  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian, Carl, Paul, and George? on: January 17, 2012, 07:03:42 AM
I read about the meeting at Derek Taylors house a few weeks ago in the new Byrds Biography Requiem for the Timeless by Johnny Rogan. Ill look it up later tonight.

That would be great, please report back GuyO! I don't have that book and if it's in there, I think that's the meeting being reported in the news clipping from the Smile box.

And that would beg the question, if it were in 1965 why include the snippet among the Smile-era news reports in that collage? Or maybe the meeting was later, but I can't remember or think of any other times George and Paul would have both been in LA, and I don't recall Brian or Carl mentioning it in interviews or books as they did other meetings.

And I'll also need to track down the source, but *one* book has another backstage meeting mentioned where some Beach Boys (Dennis, if I recall, I could be wrong...) were not being as friendly to the visiting Beatles as others (no info on that date if it happened), while another book only lists Mike and Carl as meeting them at that Portland concert, August 22 1965, suggesting also that it was a "surprise" when Mike and Carl showed up. This was the concert they were flying to when the Beatles' airplane filled with smoke and they thought the plane was going to crash.

As the Beatles were on the flight, apart from the chaos/emergency, Philadelphia journalist Larry Kane recalled overhearing them discussing Brian Wilson and meeting the Beach Boys, and Ringo was a very big fan of the Beach Boys and was excited ('A thrill to meet them...' Ringo told Kane) to talk to them. That's part of the story you don't hear too often: Ringo was a major fan of the Beach Boys.
9178  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Brian, Carl, Paul, and George? on: January 16, 2012, 08:52:19 AM
In the Smile box set packaging, there is a little news item reproduced that reported a meeting between Brian, Carl, Paul McCartney, and George Harrison at Derek Taylor's home. When did this happen? I saw it, thought about it, then realized it was a meeting I don't recall hearing about unless I did and forgot about it.

Putting the pieces together: There are two specific early-to-mid 60's Beatles-Beach Boys meetings described in several sources, one of them obviously the Paul McCartney-Brian "On Top Of Old Smokey" meeting in April '67 when Paul was in Los Angeles (through Derek Taylor), and another in Portland Oregon, August 1965, where the Beatles met up with at least Mike and Carl backstage at a show.

This other meeting - Brian, Carl, Paul, George at Derek Taylor's house - does anyone have additional information or details on this? I'm thinking one of the only times it could have happened prior to the meeting with Paul in April '67 was when the Beatles visited Los Angeles in '65, held court at a rental house, and spent time with the likes of Elvis, the Byrds, Peter Fonda, and other assorted LA scene-makers.
9179  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Gary Usher origins on: January 15, 2012, 12:43:31 PM

Quote
Note the Pet Sounds-era photos of Bruce, Terry, and Asher sitting around Brian at Columbia's mixing board...they were always hanging out and listening.

Bruce: one of the band... Tony: lyricist... Brian: one of the band... Terry: Columbia staff producer. Hardly surprising they were 'hanging out'.

Quote
It's just too damn easy to connect at least 4 people involved with "My World Fell Down", not to mention a shared recording facility and other shared things like some of the Wrecking Crew, if there were any there who someone could name. What I'd like to know, if anyone has this, is the recording session dates, the release date (not as important), and any similar info on "My World Fell Down" with the dates and such.

Session dates for "MWFD" along with Brian's dates of the period:

January
  3 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains ['Do A Lot', 'Mission Pak', 'Bridge to
       Indians' and 'pickup to 3rd verse' vocals, 'Bag of Tricks' and 'Part 1 tag' - Columbia]
  5 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains - part 2/'Bicycle Rider' vocals [Western]
  9 - Smile session: Wonderful ['version 2 (rock with me, Henry') incl. vocals - Western]
10 - Saggitarius session: My World Fell Down (album version)
12 - Dennis Wilson session: I Don't Know [Western]
20 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains [vocals - Columbia]
23 - Smile session: Surf's Up [2 sessions - Western]
25 - Jasper Dailey session: Teeter-Totter Love [Western]
27 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains ['Children Were Raised' and 'Whistling Bridge'
        vocals, 'Cantina' section/'All Day' [Columbia]
31 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains [vocals - Columbia]

February     
  2 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains [Western]
  3 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains [vocals - Columbia]
  7 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains ['Cantina' section vocals - Columbia]
  7 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains [Columbia]
  9 - Jasper Dailey session: Teeter-Totter Love [vocals - Western]
   9 - Saggitarius session: My World Fell Down (single version)
10 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains/My Only Sunshine [vocals - Columbia] [BW]

"MWFD" was released in May 1967.

Thank you for the dates and session info. I quoted the part about them "hanging out" to clarify: It definitely is not surprising considering their associations with Columbia, and by the phrase "hanging out" I meant more along the lines if they were in the Columbia studios building, or any studio facility, they'd drop in and check out what was going on: It was common practice, it was the order of the day, there was nothing close to the secrecy and spectacle of some artists posting armed guards at the studio doors to ensure complete privacy.

There are the mentions of Henry Lewy ducking into the control room to hear "Fire" according to Vosse's piece, we have the photos, audio, and film of the various GV sessions where guests would come and go...not that they said "Hey, let's meet up at Studio A tonight and hang out!", but if there were sessions running at the same time, they'd naturally drop in to check things out.

The point where Brian thought his sonic ideas were being stolen by this openness in the studios is what interests me, and it is a possibility some of it could have come from "My World Fell Down"...I say could and not did.

If the record was released in May 1967, couldn't that match the time when Brian stopped going to his go-to studios like Columbia, Western, and Gold Star, stopped calling the Wrecking Crew en masse for sessions, and stopped recording as he had been doing since 1963? Jules says he started posting people at the studio doors to keep guests out, but offers no date...but the release date of MWFD in May 1967 *could* be used as more ammo to suggest that song set him off somehow. If you're prone to suggesting that.  Smiley
9180  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Gary Usher origins on: January 15, 2012, 12:33:02 PM
[the date would be spring 1966, when Usher had long since stopped working with Brian, and Brian was, of course, doing rather more then "writing litter surfer music". In this instance Usher is totally unreliable.]

Yes, based on that excerpt if people read that not knowing the date and time issues, and how nothing fits with the truth, they might come away with quite a negative view on Brian...and "totally unreliable" is a more charitable way of saying Usher is full of crap in this instance.

Seems like some bitterness there and attempts to diminish (pun... Smiley Brian's reputation, maybe lingering unresolved issues from back in the day.
9181  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Stamos In Reunion on: January 14, 2012, 10:06:27 PM
I'm posting this stuff just for the discussion at hand, but take a look at some of the Beach Boys' more famous or well-known live shows on Eric Aniversario's setlist archive website, and count up exactly how many of the surf/car/fun songs were featured at those shows. I wouldn't say that earlier material dominated their live shows, and they usually had a nice blend of all their styles and eras, which I think will still be the case today.

This is the July 4th '80 show from DC, one of the largest crowds they've played for:
SETLIST
1. California Girls
2. Sloop John B (Brian/Mike/Carl)
3. Darlin'
4. School Days
5. In My Room
6. Good Timin'
7. God Only Knows
8. Do It Again
9. Little Deuce Coupe
10. Catch a Wave
11. Hawaii
12. Merry Minuet
13. Santa Ana Winds
14. Some of Your Love
15. Keepin' the Summer Alive
16. Lady Lynda
17. Cottonfields
18. Heroes & Villains
19. I Write The Songs
20. Surfer Girl
21. Help Me Rhonda
22. Be True to Your School
23. Wouldn't It Be Nice
24. Rock & Roll Music
25. I Get Around
26. Surfin' USA
Encore:
27. Good Vibrations
28. Barbara Ann
29. Fun Fun Fun

I don't have a problem with the fun in the sun image, I think it makes for some great audiences and created some amazing music, but it's important to see how it played out factually as much as through the image of the band.

This July 4th setlist, I think, would hold up very well in 2012 and I think crowds would love a lineup like this as a reunion show with maybe a few substitutions and updates.
9182  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Stamos In Reunion on: January 14, 2012, 09:38:56 PM
This is exactly what Ron said, if he meant to say something different I'm hoping he'll chime in and clarify it so the record is straight.

You're saying the surf songs should be relegated to a medly at the encore, although the surf songs are 90% of their success.  When the band changed from surf/car songs, they lost their audience. 

You are going to be SO dissapointed by this tour.  Save yourself the trouble, and don't go , because you clearly don't understand the boys or their music.  You think you do, but you completely do not. 

9183  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Stamos In Reunion on: January 14, 2012, 09:23:00 PM
The only years the Beach Boys had surfing songs as hits were their first real year of being a band, 1962, and 1963. The car songs were still there in '64, but dropped off after that. Not saying they weren't incredibly popular and great, classic singles which put the band on the map, but that's only one part of the history.

If there is a suggestion made that this band lost their audience after they stopped doing surf/car songs, yet this band continued to release top 40 singles into the next decade that had nothing to do with cars or surfing, I'd strongly disagree. And the band's discography would disagree as well. The history of the band was not written by them being a surf band or a car band. The bands that were those things didn't last, although they may have had a few great singles too.
9184  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Stamos In Reunion on: January 14, 2012, 09:08:47 PM


You're saying the surf songs should be relegated to a medly at the encore, although the surf songs are 90% of their success.  When the band changed from surf/car songs, they lost their audience. 

You are going to be SO dissapointed by this tour.  Save yourself the trouble, and don't go , because you clearly don't understand the boys or their music.  You think you do, but you completely do not. 


9185  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Stamos In Reunion on: January 14, 2012, 08:08:56 PM
Quick fact check: The number of charting hit songs specifically about surfing which the Beach Boys released in the 60's (and beyond) is *four*, and on almost every one of those four, the flip side was a song about cars. And four is generous because "Surfin" was more regional than national, unless you count "Do It Again" to make it an even four hits. Adding in a few other songs, like I Get Around, there were more car songs than surf songs. And the only hit about school spirit or which references cheerleading is one: "Be True To Your School".

Four songs which were hits in the span of about two years, that's it.

9186  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Gary Usher origins on: January 14, 2012, 07:23:36 PM
Jolly Good! Grin
9187  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Stamos In Reunion on: January 14, 2012, 07:16:03 PM
If BRI is reading this thread they're probably laughing their asses off. A laugh which will get louder as the actual ticket sales numbers start rolling in... LOL

(including my hard-earned dollars, mind you, if the Boys and their mega-musician, 7-guitars-strong caravan come 'round these parts this year.)

9188  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Gary Usher origins on: January 14, 2012, 07:09:24 PM
Whether true or not, it was reported in some book somewhere that Brian became suspicious of outsiders hearing the SMiLE tapes after becoming aware of what Usher had done with MY WORLD FELL DOWN (Bruce Johnston appears on both MWFD and the SMiLE tracks, right?). If there is any truth to this, I suspect Brian was responding to the modular arrangement of MWFD and how it hard edits dramatic dynamic shifts in a similar manner to the SMiLE material.

I know I've heard it or read it somewhere before, so it's good to see someone else who remembers this aspect of "My World Fell Down" - the part where Brian thought it was too close to what he had been recording for Smile, and how many people had access to hear those tapes in 1966-67?

I'm not a believer of conspiracy theories as facts can conveniently get in the way of even the best of those theories, but I am an aficionado and someone who devours the details of the better ones. So if there are such theories about My World Fell Down and Smile, the dots aren't that hard to connect.

The song was the first song project he did which he'd eventually name Sagittarius, so it stands alone apart from the album where it eventually appeared. He originally wanted Chad and Jeremy to record the cover, but they balked, so Usher did it himself. He was recording at and working on the staff of Columbia Records, so there is *no doubt* of the possibility that he and Brian (and Bruce and Terry) were in the same place at the same time (Columbia studios in LA) and hanging out at each others' sessions. Note the Pet Sounds-era photos of Bruce, Terry, and Asher sitting around Brian at Columbia's mixing board...they were always hanging out and listening.

One of the things Brian did when he started to feel his ideas were being taken was to *close* access to his recording sessions. No outsiders or non-essential people allowed. This is mentioned in Jules' Goodbye Surfing article. Brian's paranoia, or was there something specific that triggered this?

It's just too damn easy to connect at least 4 people involved with "My World Fell Down", not to mention a shared recording facility and other shared things like some of the Wrecking Crew, if there were any there who someone could name. What I'd like to know, if anyone has this, is the recording session dates, the release date (not as important), and any similar info on "My World Fell Down" with the dates and such.

But I guess it ultimately comes down to whether you think the record sounds like parts of Smile or not, and I just happen to think it shares some production elements with Smile.
9189  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Gary Usher origins on: January 13, 2012, 11:10:57 AM
I was a bit too harsh in my original post, but I'm trying to remember where I heard about Brian thinking his production ideas were stolen, and relating it to this specific record. Maybe it was a few statements like that which just got attached to My World Fell Down through the years, because of the similarities? I just can't remember.

It is interesting to hear the original release by The Ivy League, and then play it back to back with Usher's production. The sonic elements Usher added sound a lot like what Brian was doing in the studio at the same time with Smile, or at least in the half-year or so leading up to the release of My World Fell Down. Those elements were not there on the original, and unless Usher had those sounds on another release before this, it sounds a lot like it *could* have come from some Smile sessions.

It would be an interesting question to ask Bruce and Brian, if they have not been asked before.
9190  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Stamos In Reunion on: January 13, 2012, 09:59:11 AM
Stamos wouldn't bother me so much if we wasn't such a big ham.  He loves to get attention from the screaming girls.

I'm not taking sides either way, but how was that different from Mike Love's stage act? Or for that matter, any number of male musicians who play live rock and roll? Smiley
9191  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Stamos In Reunion on: January 13, 2012, 09:56:25 AM
The success of the Pet Sounds and Smile sessions box sets, in relation to sales numbers of similar 4+ disc box set deluxe editions, might suggest there is a large number of fans who like that part of the Beach Boys history, and some would even say it was because the music on those sets contains a level of sophistication and innovation which continues to amaze and win over new fans, and which would belie the age of the people who made that music in 1966-67. If some of those fans prefer that recorded legacy over the legacy and image of the live shows from the past 4 decades or so, that's their choice. And if some prefer the live act through the years, with the costumes, humor, stage banter, nostalgia trips, good music, live vocals...that's a great thing too, and the Beach Boys live band has regularly been a big draw at various venues. I think they can and do co-exist.

I really don't think there is such a divide between the various camps as might be suggested, although it isn't hard to see why some fans who are more into the 60's era might not enjoy some of the live antics or even the live shows in general as much, especially viewed from afar. And vice-versa.
9192  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Gary Usher origins on: January 13, 2012, 09:42:52 AM
So "My World Fell Down" isn't blatant theft from what Brian was doing with Smile?

No, it's not. Point me in the direction of a similar collage of musique concrete from the Smile sessions and I'll reconsider, but until then...

Heroes And Villains for one, of the variety Brian would play for people as he was creating it. The kind of dubs he'd play for Vosse, Anderle, et al.

The first section, the intro of the record...would that keyboard arrangement have sounded that way if one of those producers-writers had not heard "Bicycle Rider"? Various sections sound like Smile-lite to me, the various production touches like the specific drum hits, the modulation in the chorus and the heavy 4/4 parade beat, the overall sounds, the piano winding down at the very end...tell me that doesn't sound like Smile music!

And maybe it was just a rumor, but didn't Brian himself think this specific record was "stealing" his production ideas, since it came out in summer '67? If that is just a rumor, please correct because it's something I've heard for years and it has biased me a bit in the discussion.
9193  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Gary Usher origins on: January 13, 2012, 09:12:26 AM
I love Sagittarius. His work with the Byrds was great as well. I wish the 80's sessions with Brian had borne more fruit.

So "My World Fell Down" isn't blatant theft from what Brian was doing with Smile? Not that it isn't an enjoyable piece of pop-psychedelia, but damn if I were Brian in '67 and heard that some heads would roll.

Having said that I think Usher and Brian made a terrific songwriting team. But "My World Fell Down"...it's just too blatant. Smiley
9194  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Stamos In Reunion on: January 13, 2012, 08:07:57 AM
Philadelphia July 4, 1995...Stamos was playing drums and guitar (he was plugged in and audible), but the regular drummer was losing the beat. Watching the concert, I even remember thinking Stamos was better on drums and was holding a tighter groove than their regular drummer. I can't speak for anything in recent years because I haven't seen him with the band other than on YouTube.

9195  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: What Else Did The Beatles \ on: January 13, 2012, 08:01:48 AM
I knew it, just as soon as Noel Gallagher or Oasis are mentioned the anger starts to spill over. It's gotten so predictable it's funny to read the variations on the "they suck" theme. Cheesy

Crimes against music? Do we really want to compare notes on that one, on a Beach Boys message board? All I can say there is "wipe it out wipe out, wipe it out wipe out" and "Whhhhhheeeennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.......etc." Before reaching for Pet Sounds and Sunflower, play those chestnuts for someone you're trying to turn on to the Beach Boys. Grin
9196  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Aborted 1966 and 1967 live albums? on: January 12, 2012, 11:10:08 PM
The only thing I hate more than hipster jokes

Like the one about the hipster burning his mouth on the hot coffee so he could drink it before it got cool?
9197  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Wonderbill - I Hate It! on: January 12, 2012, 10:48:02 PM
Ballsy is fine, but to graft a totally unrelated song onto one of the better Smile songs - the one from the '93 box set destroys me every time I hear it - it's unnecessary and really doesn't make any sense musically or lyrically, and doesn't really enhance or compliment either of the original tunes, in my opinion and as someone who considers the 1966 Wonderful a special song.

Some said having the Fat Boys rap with the Beach Boys was ballsy too, so...  Smiley
9198  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Stamos In Reunion on: January 12, 2012, 10:44:10 PM
They'd better have a reinforced stage big enough to hold all these people being listed if they decide to go that route... Smiley Don't forget they need to save some room for the dancing cheerleaders and surfer girls.
9199  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: What Else Did The Beatles \ on: January 12, 2012, 09:56:39 AM
To me, his pilfering made him an even more sophisticated artist, as far as I'm concerned. Artist like Lennon, Van Gogh, etc. understand that art is really as much about borrowing as it is about creating - or, that creating and borrowing are not necessarily different things.

Let me say first that I am a fan of Noel Gallagher as a songwriter, and I know bringing up his name can cause some negative reactions, but would this reasoning apply to Noel in the way some folks for years have accused him of nicking and "borrowing" too many obvious ideas from other songwriters to use in his own songs? If not, why not apply it to rebuke criticism of Noel as well? I think I agree with what rockandroll posted above - and that an artist or creator simply can't escape what they've heard or seen in the time leading up to that spark of inspiration which leads to creating a new work.
9200  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Wonderbill - I Hate It! on: January 12, 2012, 09:49:53 AM
To each his own. Wink
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