15 minutes of a M&P session in Western 3 with Hal and the gang recording a new tune...AND footage of Burt Bacharach and Hal David finishing writing their new song for Dionne called "I Say A Little Prayer" in a living room.   

Holy Grail material for sure. Maybe someday "The Songmakers" will be released publicly, along with the full 45 minutes of Brian recording "Good Vibrations", of which roughly 4-5 minutes has been seen publicly so far. Such a damn shame.

Some great footage I hadn't seen til recently: https://youtu.be/-Q3mL3QhfKY

So that Mamas and Papas footage - That's the Western 3 footage I posted about here back in 2011 and later in 2012 after digging deeper with what was available at the time. I guess others have filled in more of the info, but it was an hour-long documentary that first aired February 24, 1967 on ABC titled "The Songmakers". It was later rebroadcast in July 1967. The reviews were mostly positive, although I'll post a less-enthusiastic one in the next post because of the size.

United/Western/UA even mentioned it in their employee newsletter, which I'll also post. At that time it wasn't common to have engineers and studio staff featured on TV programs, not to mention the free advertising they got for their studio business, no less showing an actual session in Western 3 featuring Hal Blaine, Joe Osborn, Tommy Tedesco, and the usual gang who played for Lew Adler, Papa John and Bones Howe (also featured). It was a pretty big deal for early 1967.

It still is a big deal because apparently no copies of the full broadcast are circulating. According to a post on the clip, one full copy exists in the Paley Center archives, but is unavailable for viewing or something. The M&P footage in that clip was aired as part of an M&P documentary which I think was shown on the A&E network years ago, which is where I first saw it. There is footage of Mike Bloomfield playing with Butterfield at a college party gig that is up on some Bloomfield fan sites, but if there are other copies of the other artists' appearances they're not widely seen or circulated.

So it would be amazing to get a full copy at some point. Once you see the list of artists who were featured, I think everyone will agree.

And this ties in to that same early '67 period just before Pepper and the Summer Of Love schtick where TV networks and news divisions were taking a more serious look at pop music, and trying to bridge the gap between the different music worlds that existed, since the music was doing that very same thing and selling like hotcakes. It wasn't kids music versus adult music, because the kids were using "adult" musical ideas in their music, and the adults were taking their own sounds from the "kids" to sell more music.

And then there was Brian Wilson, and The Beatles, featured on "Inside Pop" for CBS aired in April '67 just under two months after ABC had a hit with "The Songmakers" in late February '67. The whole point of these shows was to take a hard look at music for music's sake, and to show how "the kids" making pop music were not making disposable fluff but instead had something to say both musically and socially. And they were making millions in the process.

What a great time for music, and at least we can watch "Inside Pop" as a complete broadcast. Maybe someday "The Songmakers" will show up in full too. I'll post the article snippets separately, check out that lineup...

Maybe not the Beach Boys with a few exceptions (like the '93 box set performances), but man some of those earlier pre-Smile Brian tours were full of deep cuts, just fantastic setlists full of tracks people never thought they'd hear played on stage, no less by Brian himself. There were some truly great setlists from 99-04 or so. After Smile was a blockbuster, a few tours got more deep cuts if not specific works like the Gershwin shows which I'd say were pretty challenging setlists, but the '68 tour I saw at the Tower had a great mix of hits and the deep Friends cuts. And I swear I saw Al do "Welfare Song" live but can't recall when or where...if I'm wrong, please let me know.

I agree about the casino crowds as described above, the practice of "comping" the gamblers and high rollers tickets for any number of shows is what leads to that kind of episode. It's a fucking weird subculture where older people get all these free gifts from the casinos and some just don't care what the shows may be or who is even playing, hence the walkouts. If it isn't their thing, they split and eat cocktail shrimp and prime rib at the buffet like there's no tomorrow, and money isn't even an issue since they piss it away gambling on the floor anyway. And the younger gamblers are there to gamble, not to see a legacy act. So it's kind of odd to expect a crowd like that to want to see whatever show they're getting comped tickets for.

How does this tie in to a Feel Flows box set? Honestly, and seriously, did most of the audience who paid a lot of cash to see McCartney live buy tickets to see him play deep cuts from Ram, or McCartney II, or even more than a few from Egypt Station or something? Hell no. They were there for the hits, and most were fine with that. Imagine Paul *not* doing Hey Jude or I Saw Her Standing There and instead doing deep album cuts that a few diehards would go nuts over and more in the crowd would be hitting the bathrooms or concession stands. Yet Paul's deluxe box sets have a core audience and they buy those deluxe sets en masse. There has to be a separation, and the success or lack thereof of a deluxe archival release should *not* be tied to what these musicians play at their live shows, again especially legacy artists who have a full library of "hits" and crowd-pleasers.

Michael Shelley just gave So Much In Love a spin on 'FMU, I was wondering if he'd be playing some cuts from the album today.

The irony once again is how the crowd that started lambasting fans for being and acting "entitled" when they showed support for the box set release are now demanding more public information from people who have firsthand knowledge of the set's status and reasons why it's not scheduled.

Talk about hypocrisy.

So fans who want this set released are "entitled" and the band owes them nothing, according to that narrative...but people connected to the production of this set now owe those same people crying about "entitled fans" more info on the set?

Who's acting "entitled" now? What a farce. Again, consider the source.

You hit the nail on the head, Don, especially with that last paragraph.


I’m also going to say this again...why is it certain people are choosing to ignore what Howie and Jon have both said?! Jon’s last post was about as clear as can be without burning bridges. I’m really trying hard to be nice, but I have a major issue when someone doubts the integrity of two thoroughly decent guys who have put their asses on the line to keep us informed. That is extremely offensive to me, and one or two cases, I wonder about the motivation behind such statements.

All of this regarding motivation has been playing out for years, maybe it took a clusterfuck like this box set getting shelved to expose more of what has been going on all along among various elements within this band and the fanbase. You saw a few people show up here several weeks ago and basically lie and distort trying to speculate on reasons why the set got held up, while the group they're associated with now spends time criticizing those who are speculating why the set got held up, not to mention people who actually worked on the set. It's all about pushing a narrative, then trying to smear those who go against that narrative. Going after Howie and Jon should be the last straw in all of it, for those who still can't see it.

Jon, I think your post is too “wordy” for some on this board. I think you might edit down your last post because I honestly don’t think it will sink in otherwise. No offense intended.

Pretty sure the average post length on this board is 10 paragraphs long, which makes Jon post look small.

First, that's pure crap, and second if you don't want to read long posts, don't read 'em -- simple as that! No need to try to take a swipe at the board dating from 2015.

At the “other” place a certain someone is implying that “insiders” are intentionally stirring the pot to cause turmoil 😤

I mean, really now, c’mon. Gimme a damn break

The *only* reason why any insiders would be posting in this thread is to help the set be released, and without it being butchered. Who would be doing that posting for fun? It's a desperate situation, clearly. The INTACT music surely means a hell of a lot to the insider folks who would come and talk about here, and they know that it means a hell of a lot to us reading the thread.

There's no way in hell that any insider has any other ultimate objective. If some of the ugliness of what is happening behind the scenes happens to be indirectly surmised during the course of discussion, then so be it. Anybody would literally have to be out of their minds to think that "exposing the ugly truth" is any insider's real goal. 

The lengths that some people go to pass the buck and avoid actually acknowledging that Mike is clearly acting terribly is truly astounding. I just dare anybody to come up with a reason other than petty jealousy that Mike would have for trying to mutilate the box set. Yet it's somehow the messenger, blame the people who risk a hell of a lot to talk about stuff and dance around certain specifics somewhat because they *have to* do that dance in order to be able to say anything at all. It is absolutely disgusting to think that anybody could really have that blame the insiders mindset, and have their tongues so far up Mike's wrinkly ass.  It's gaslighting to such a degree that I cannot even fathom it.

Exactly!


I believe someone like Howie or Jon over someone who posts under the name of a pitch correction software on a forum ran by a charlatan , any day of the damn week

That is who they are, and this is what they do (and have been doing for years). When something doesn't fit the narrative, they attack the messenger(s), in this case that includes someone who actually worked on the set for 2 years. Not a damn thing has changed. Choose where you get your info and who you get it from, it's not difficult to suss out at this point. 

Here's a related post with info on the same set of AMC clips:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,27340.msg665274.html#msg665274

Yes, those were part of the AMC "Am Pop" series which aired that summer. They'd do beach movies, then run various music clips in between, and those were a part of the collection. AMC also aired a full hour block of the music clips as one compilation, again including those above.

In past years there have been some great discussions on this board about those clips and the origins. If anyone is interested in learning more about them, and what else was aired on AMC, search the archives here, and if I can find all the good discussions I'll try to post links. Ed Roach described how he found that Eastern Airlines clip, and that is part of a longer commercial with even more music. That talk show clip was also discussed pretty extensively, but wow what a cool clip from the Friends era. I used to have a list of what Am Pop ran, and I have the whole thing on VHS. There was one that stuck out but not in a good way lol..."Muscle Bustle" sung by Dick Dale and Donna Loren.

So those clips hold a special place for me as a fan. I remember I came home late on a Saturday night from bar-hopping (I was not driving that night), turned on the TV and AMC happened to be on. Within a few minutes the Good Vibrations video came on the screen. I was literally flabbergasted, I had never seen it and didn't know it existed. I tried to grab a blank VHS and start recording, but it was almost over. Then I checked the listings for the next time they would be airing these clips...and I swore I recorded it, but going back later I couldn't find it. I was a VHS pack-rat, I had way too many of them. I purged a lot of them about 12 years ago, just left them out for the taking, but I still have multiple boxes full of them packed away. But I could never find that Am Pop recording with the GV promo film.

I tried contacting AMC directly multiple times asking about the Am Pop series and where or if I could buy a copy, and they either didn't reply or didn't have anything to offer. Then I discovered some of the BB's groups on Yahoo, and the Smile Shop, and posted a few want ads. Fortunately a fan who is still on this board came through, and if I recall I sent a full copy of "Inside Pop" in return for the Am Pop compilation and a few other goodies that come and go from YouTube every so often. Many, many thanks to that fan who hooked me up with what was a probably still is one of my favorite BB's videos of all time, that 1966 GV promo film.

Good memories of some great BB film.

Ed Roach found and rescued that airline commercial after seeing it at a film festival years ago, and he described it on this board years ago too. Just use the search function for his name and posts and it should come up. That very short clip included in the AmPop series was indeed part of a longer clip and campaign for the airline featuring the Beach Boys. Maybe someday the general public will get a chance to see the full version.

A suitable response:

https://youtu.be/ElJRY0PoZgY

Relevant to perhaps nothing, I want to share a story.

Roughly 20 years ago, a co-worker at the time got tickets to see Vanilla Ice live. It was near where he lived, and the price was good, so he went. This was when Vanilla Ice was doing a tour of clubs and smaller venues - I guess to fund his real estate ventures or something.

So he's at the club, and everyone is waiting for Ice to come out. He has a DJ/mixer with him who's also acting as the emcee and trying to fire up the crowd, spinning some tracks, etc. He's yelling into the mic to give Ice his props, give him his props, etc. So the crowd does. And the guy keeps yelling at the crowd to give Ice his props, and the crowd does repeatedly...but they get tired of that bullshit and want to see Ice perform, which is what they paid to see. And Vanilla Ice is still not performing anything. The crowd is getting restless.

So the guy says it again, and my friend finally yelled back "We already gave him his props, now it's time to fucking perform!". Which Ice finally did. But the show was stopped at some point after the house lights came up and the emcee started yelling "Who's smokin' that wet? Is someone smokin' wet?". But eventually he did Ice Ice Baby which he could have done 12 times in a row and still given the crowd their show.


I guess the point is, the fans are growing tired of giving our props (i.e. continuous support and encouragement) to this band and this shelved box set and hearing dead silence. It would be nice to get at least some acknowledgement, or else fans will grow tired of repeating the same damn things over and over again for weeks if not months on end. The petition is there, the comments on all social media platforms including this forum are there, the fans have been consistently enthusiastic and active in their support for a release...It's time to f**king perform. 

I noticed in the "party" photos Al has a really thin-necked instrument in one and a 12-string in another. What's the thin one?

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,20324.msg537870.html#msg537870

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,20324.msg537877.html#msg537877

Yes, it was a Martin 0-18 tenor. I should have clipped in a photo showing the headstock more clearly, but it's definitely a Martin. Here is a video with another folk musician who worked with the We Five playing Nick's actual Martin tenor that he gave away in 1967. You'll hear the sound this kind of tenor guitar makes and how it fit into the Trio's guitar sound by watching this clip, the last few minutes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE1mbcEN8vw

It looks like Al is playing a similar model Martin, are there more photos of Al with it?

These lists are done to generate discussion and debate, and of course they change from year to year and with the generation gap of who is casting votes and writing the blurbs. It's good to get classic albums into the general public like this, with the hope that fans will see unfamiliar albums on the list and consider picking them up to listen.

Some surprises...Coming from an era where Sgt. Pepper was always near or at the top, as was "A Day In The Life" on greatest song lists, it is shocking to see it fall as it did and not even crack top 10. While I disagree, I can understand the reasons why. With younger audiences I'm in regular contact with, for The Beatles it's now either Abbey Road or The White Album that are the favorites. I think both of those currently have more hype and attention, and especially with Abbey Road they have a more modern sound in terms of mixing and production, and there are more songs that rock for lack of a better term than Pepper. I personally think Pepper literally kicked down all the doors of what could be done on a rock album when it was new, and any conversation with musicians who were active when it came out in '67 will back that up, but in the digital age and with new listeners, it doesn't seem to have held the same impact and has been eclipsed by their later work. The real sad part for me is how the early Beatles releases are almost overlooked entirely...and those are simply amazing, especially if one dreams of becoming a songwriter.

I agree with RJM - It is remarkable, but not surprising, that Pet Sounds has held on to the #2 spot. It's very heartening to see such a placement and such respect being given to the album and Brian's masterpiece. It continues to inspire and influence, as well as make all kinds of people from all ages and backgrounds happy when they listen. Justified and deserved - I'm not even surprised or upset that it didn't make #1 on this list. Both Pet Sounds and Marvin's masterpiece "What's Going On" were decades ahead of their time both in music and message. They still resonate some 50 years later in spite of all that's changed. People are still listening and being inspired by the personal work and messages of these two musicians.

What strikes me is how both Marvin Gaye and Brian Wilson, the #1 and #2 albums on the list, both expressed how they had to get this music out, how they had to get it to the listeners as a personal message, and how they did it despite challenges or people around them telling them it won't work. I think that personal element is what makes them timeless as well.

And what also struck me was just how few of the top albums on that list were available for modern fans to see played live, performed by the creators. I think the ranking of Pet Sounds may answer the critics who question why Brian and his band toured so much behind Pet Sounds in recent years. If it weren't in demand, if it were not continually ranked as high as this recent list, if it were not something fans of all ages wanted to experience in person, there would be no tours.

New Fleet Foxes album dropped suddenly today. Give it a listen, it's excellent.

A track towards the end samples a BW voice clip from the Pet Sounds sessions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2SZCIZrllc&ab_channel=FleetFoxes

Robin Pecknold talking about Pet Sounds in a recent interview:

"Pet Sounds is a big influence generally speaking. This is definitely the most studio rat, Brian Wilson-y, overdub-y of any of our records. That approach is what made me want to get into the music in general. The little bits of Brian Wilson dialogue on that song are taken from my favorite piece of music ever, which is this a cappella clip of him laying vocal after vocal for this idea for “Don’t Talk (Put Your Head on My Shoulder).” That piece of music is what made me want to be a musician, hearing him, just with his voice, building this whole world and how magical that felt, how he didn’t even need a guitar. It had this egalitarian wonder that was super inspiring to me as a teenager. Same thing with growing up in Seattle and having Kurt Cobain nearby making us all think we could do that too."

Thank you for posting this - I was listening to the radio yesterday when they announced that Fleet Foxes had suddenly released a new album, and played a track from it immediately. This is the first I'm hearing this one, and had no idea Brian was sampled on it! Very cool tribute to BW, and I can't wait to dig into the new album in full.

P.S. - Do I need to sign a guarantee or waiver or apologize if I listen on YouTube first?   

I have to agree with Robin, when I first got the Pet Sounds reissue and heard that vocal background, that amazing "wall of Brians" erupting into those harmonies, I was mesmerized. I still am whenever I listen, and while it's not my favorite bit from Pet Sounds (how can you choose when there are so many? ) it ranks right up near the top for me too. Here was one young guy with one working ear no less covering every voice from bass to soprano alone at the microphone and building an amazing harmony part piece by piece. Still as impressive and inspiring as any music you could cite, within that one snippet.

Very, very neat to hear such a tribute released in late 2020. It also is part of the many reasons why Pet Sounds just ranked #2 album of all time on the Rolling Stone list: The album is timeless though approaching 55 years old next year, and it continues to influence and inspire artists 2 complete generations removed from its original era. And in this case, look at the impact an unused vocal overdub outtake had on a prominent musician like Robin. Amazing.

I remember very well the case with Sunshine Tomorrow's release in the summer of 2017 and Mike's activities related to that release.

For those interested in more of that discussion, here is a discussion from that time which touched on that topic:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,25259.0.html

For those not willing to read through a 3+ year old discussion, this is the recap.

"Sunshine Tomorrow" was released and got very positive response from the fans, as well as the music press who picked up the story. It literally did shed new light on what was a misunderstood and in some cases a misreported era of the band, and perhaps just as much an era of Brian Wilson's productions for the band. 2017 was of course the 50th anniversary of 1967's musical output, and knowing how this band/brand loves an anniversary, it was a good fit in terms of possible promotion too.

So the question I had then, and which others have raised in this current topic, was "Where was Mike Love?".

Mike and band appeared on a national broadcast of the July 4th concert. Mike had a chance to promote this archival set, a set featuring some truly stellar performances from Mike personally as well as the band as a whole, to a national TV audience full of potential buyers.

Mike said nothing about the 1967 release.

Instead, just days after "Sunshine Tomorrow" was released, Mike released his own music, a remake with a promo video shot in a hotel room, of "Do It Again" featuring Mark McGrath and John Stamos.

Mike promoted that on the TV broadcast, with both Stamos and McGrath on stage, as "our" new release. Not a word about the 1967 archival Beach Boys release that had dropped days earlier and was generating some buzz in the music press.

So the takeaway was watching the priorities play out for fans to see. The choice would be to promote both Sunshine Tomorrow and the Love-McGrath-Stamos release, or totally ignore the archival release and instead promote the Love solo release, and do so as "our new release", with the word our representing..."The Beach Boys" who played it on live TV for millions watching a holiday concert?

Mike of course chose the latter. And he piggybacked his own single release, the remake of a 49 year old Beach Boys classic, onto the release of archival material from 1967.

That's not the only time this happened, and yes once again it may be this one fan's personal hangup and gripe about the whole thing, but there is somewhat of a pattern behind this where Mike either ignores the archival material in favor of promoting his tours and touring band, or tries to piggyback his own releases onto something released featuring the original Beach Boys name and archival music.

Judge for yourself if the same deja vu will happen all over again, to paraphrase the great philosopher Yogi Berra.

On Brian's FB post this morning of a picture of Smile tapes with the caption "SMiLE", Howie replied "FEEL FLOWS".

I don't understand it. In the last few days there have been posts on the Facebook page with the usual archival video clips and photos, but also a promotion for an ESQ giveaway contest and now a post about Smile.

It feels like there is an elephant in the room, along with an entire zoo if not the entirety of Noah's ark. Seriously, promoting another sweepstakes giveaway and now a Smile post while the one topic buzzing around the fanbase doesn't seem to be on the radar?

I don't understand it. What else can fans do at this point? It feels like nothing, except enter another contest and post hashtags.

Doesn't at all seem right at all. And I'm glad that we're all here still asking questions. Like we keep saying, this is the last major boxset this band will likely ever release, and there is silence all around.

Also, it appears that Howie's "FEEL FLOWS" comment is gone. Either they deleted it or he deleted it (at least, I can't find it).

I don't understand promoting giveaway contests and Smile during all this, but what can we do except ask questions and post hashtags.

At some point that's going to get tedious too, if it already hasn't.

It doesn't leave a positive feeling in the air, that's for sure.

I don't understand it. In the last few days there have been posts on the Facebook page with the usual archival video clips and photos, but also a promotion for an ESQ giveaway contest and now a post about Smile.

It feels like there is an elephant in the room, along with an entire zoo if not the entirety of Noah's ark. Seriously, promoting another sweepstakes giveaway and now a Smile post while the one topic buzzing around the fanbase doesn't seem to be on the radar?

I don't understand it. What else can fans do at this point? It feels like nothing, except enter another contest and post hashtags.

Yes, those were part of the AMC "Am Pop" series which aired that summer. They'd do beach movies, then run various music clips in between, and those were a part of the collection. AMC also aired a full hour block of the music clips as one compilation, again including those above.

In past years there have been some great discussions on this board about those clips and the origins. If anyone is interested in learning more about them, and what else was aired on AMC, search the archives here, and if I can find all the good discussions I'll try to post links. Ed Roach described how he found that Eastern Airlines clip, and that is part of a longer commercial with even more music. That talk show clip was also discussed pretty extensively, but wow what a cool clip from the Friends era. I used to have a list of what Am Pop ran, and I have the whole thing on VHS. There was one that stuck out but not in a good way lol..."Muscle Bustle" sung by Dick Dale and Donna Loren.

So those clips hold a special place for me as a fan. I remember I came home late on a Saturday night from bar-hopping (I was not driving that night), turned on the TV and AMC happened to be on. Within a few minutes the Good Vibrations video came on the screen. I was literally flabbergasted, I had never seen it and didn't know it existed. I tried to grab a blank VHS and start recording, but it was almost over. Then I checked the listings for the next time they would be airing these clips...and I swore I recorded it, but going back later I couldn't find it. I was a VHS pack-rat, I had way too many of them. I purged a lot of them about 12 years ago, just left them out for the taking, but I still have multiple boxes full of them packed away. But I could never find that Am Pop recording with the GV promo film.

I tried contacting AMC directly multiple times asking about the Am Pop series and where or if I could buy a copy, and they either didn't reply or didn't have anything to offer. Then I discovered some of the BB's groups on Yahoo, and the Smile Shop, and posted a few want ads. Fortunately a fan who is still on this board came through, and if I recall I sent a full copy of "Inside Pop" in return for the Am Pop compilation and a few other goodies that come and go from YouTube every so often. Many, many thanks to that fan who hooked me up with what was a probably still is one of my favorite BB's videos of all time, that 1966 GV promo film.

Good memories of some great BB film.

Fan support for buying a physical release was asked for AND received, and digital sales or projected sales in general being a factor in this set's release getting stalled was ruled out.

Is there anything else pertinent to discuss about a series of posts from 2018? Donny? Anyone? No one is covering anything up, and the implication of trying to bury it in light of what happened and the information provided a few days ago in reply to that nonsense is insulting and uncalled for, Donny. It is and always has been there for all to see. But exactly what was mentioned and requested in 2018 has been delivered by the fans over and over again regarding this specific Feel Flows set. Fans and the label want it, fans will buy the physical copy of it if and when it gets a release. It's that simple. Apart from literally kicking a dead horse over and over again for whatever reasons there are, what was asked for back then was delivered and continues to be delivered - The petition and this thread are the proof. The fans are waiting to buy.  

And this is and always will be an open forum. That's why members can discuss what they want, and other members can reply in return. No one is shutting anything down that doesn't cross a line. No one is challenging or threatening anyone in private messages. Members can suggest whatever they want in terms of the direction of a discussion and start a new topic anytime they want.

I already started a separate thread, and if that's not up to par, then someone or anyone feel free to start another.

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,27337.msg665187/topicseen.html#msg665187

It's a straw man, Craig. The straw man is persistently framing the discussion about streaming as it relates to archive releases/FF as posters indicating that this is the reason for the holdup. There are now several examples of this. Please quote where any poster said that they think the holdup for FF is related to the streaming ideas brought up. Yet there are several quotes of posters re-framing posts to suggest that.

I have no dog in this fight. I have no BB politics. If you can clarify exactly what is "insulting and uncalled for", please do so.

I'll repeat again what I just posted. What Alan said was needed in that post from 2018 is exactly what fans have been doing regarding this set: Showing support. More vocal and public support than I can remember in recent years for a single project from the Beach Boys. Support that includes a petition expressly advocating for a release of this set.

I don't know how much more support would be needed before the situation is put on the table and seen for exactly what it is: Fans supporting this Feel Flows release and saying they will buy it when it comes out. Just please, please put it out and we will buy it.

I don't know what else can be said beyond that. The insulting and uncalled for aspect was trying to suggest people don't want to discuss what happened in 2018 after it was discussed thoroughly, responded to thoroughly, and the attempts made to dredge it up and distort it into something it was not were countered with the facts of what really happened. No one is trying to hide or duck anything regarding that, but it was answered, the requests made in that 2018 exchange are being delivered as we speak by most of the fan base (at least here), and I don't know what else could be added or what more could be brought up when it's all there and responded to at this point.

okay NOW I WILL GO OFF TOPIC, and also simply GO OFF:

Please quote instead of paraphrasing with inaccurate interpretations:

"I haven't seen a single post in which anyone has indicated they think the non-release is due to streaming concerns. This is a straw man - and I'm not sure why. I can only guess that people don't want to discuss that Alan Boyd post because of the drama surrounding how it came to be in the first place, and the drama surrounding how it was introduced in this thread."

There is nothing "insulting" nor "uncalled for" in my comments. I was simply stating that I'm trying to discuss Boyd's points (which I feel are relevant to this discussion overall) there without bringing in all the dirt of the past, and others probably don't want to discuss this because of all the political baggage that comes with the way the topic was introduced here. This was an innocent remark, not a jab.

You're a mod, and you need to do better and remain unbiased, not misrepresent posts. I am not in cahoots with AGD or filledpage or whoever these people are. I don't even get along with AGD.

Fair enough. I apologize if I misinterpreted what you said as something other than what you intended. I never said you were in cahoots with anyone here in this thread or in any other discussion here, so you're responding to something that doesn't exist as an issue.

As far as misrepresenting posts, I've been wrong before and will be wrong again, but in this case it wasn't deliberate and has nothing to do with a bias or anything else. It's simply reacting to what's being said, and we get it wrong sometimes like anything else.

Fan support for buying a physical release was asked for AND received, and digital sales or projected sales in general being a factor in this set's release getting stalled was ruled out.

Is there anything else pertinent to discuss about a series of posts from 2018? Donny? Anyone? No one is covering anything up, and the implication of trying to bury it in light of what happened and the information provided a few days ago in reply to that nonsense is insulting and uncalled for, Donny. It is and always has been there for all to see. But exactly what was mentioned and requested in 2018 has been delivered by the fans over and over again regarding this specific Feel Flows set. Fans and the label want it, fans will buy the physical copy of it if and when it gets a release. It's that simple. Apart from literally kicking a dead horse over and over again for whatever reasons there are, what was asked for back then was delivered and continues to be delivered - The petition and this thread are the proof. The fans are waiting to buy.  

And this is and always will be an open forum. That's why members can discuss what they want, and other members can reply in return. No one is shutting anything down that doesn't cross a line. No one is challenging or threatening anyone in private messages. Members can suggest whatever they want in terms of the direction of a discussion and start a new topic anytime they want.

I already started a separate thread, and if that's not up to par, then someone or anyone feel free to start another.

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,27337.msg665187/topicseen.html#msg665187

It's a straw man, Craig. The straw man is persistently framing the discussion about streaming as it relates to archive releases/FF as posters indicating that this is the reason for the holdup. There are now several examples of this. Please quote where any poster said that they think the holdup for FF is related to the streaming ideas brought up. Yet there are several quotes of posters re-framing posts to suggest that.

I have no dog in this fight. I have no BB politics. If you can clarify exactly what is "insulting and uncalled for", please do so.

I'll repeat again what I just posted. What Alan said was needed in that post from 2018 is exactly what fans have been doing regarding this set: Showing support. More vocal and public support than I can remember in recent years for a single project from the Beach Boys. Support that includes a petition expressly advocating for a release of this set.

I don't know how much more support would be needed before the situation is put on the table and seen for exactly what it is: Fans supporting this Feel Flows release and saying they will buy it when it comes out. Just please, please put it out and we will buy it.

I don't know what else can be said beyond that. The insulting and uncalled for aspect was trying to suggest people don't want to discuss what happened in 2018 after it was discussed thoroughly, responded to thoroughly, and the attempts made to dredge it up and distort it into something it was not were countered with the facts of what really happened. No one is trying to hide or duck anything regarding that, but it was answered, the requests made in that 2018 exchange are being delivered as we speak by most of the fan base (at least here), and I don't know what else could be added or what more could be brought up when it's all there and responded to at this point.

Fan support for buying a physical release was asked for AND received, and digital sales or projected sales in general being a factor in this set's release getting stalled was ruled out.

Is there anything else pertinent to discuss about a series of posts from 2018? Donny? Anyone? No one is covering anything up, and the implication of trying to bury it in light of what happened and the information provided a few days ago in reply to that nonsense is insulting and uncalled for, Donny. It is and always has been there for all to see. But exactly what was mentioned and requested in 2018 has been delivered by the fans over and over again regarding this specific Feel Flows set. Fans and the label want it, fans will buy the physical copy of it if and when it gets a release. It's that simple. Apart from literally kicking a dead horse over and over again for whatever reasons there are, what was asked for back then was delivered and continues to be delivered - The petition and this thread are the proof. The fans are waiting to buy.  

And this is and always will be an open forum. That's why members can discuss what they want, and other members can reply in return. No one is shutting anything down that doesn't cross a line. No one is challenging or threatening anyone in private messages. Members can suggest whatever they want in terms of the direction of a discussion and start a new topic anytime they want.

I already started a separate thread, and if that's not up to par, then someone or anyone feel free to start another.

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,27337.msg665187/topicseen.html#msg665187

[I'm talking about Alan Boyd's post - which is interesting and relevant IMO - letting fans know that lack of purchasing of the copyright sets threatens the continuation of the sets. Regardless of the drama surrounding how that post came about, and how it was introduced into this thread (I'm not participating in that part), I think that is valid and legit.]

The issue of what artists make via streaming and whether streaming is "supporting" the artist does actually still have NOTHING to do with THIS PARTICULAR case with the issue of the current non-release of "Feel Flows."

The preparation and planning for "Feel Flows" was not made in a vacuum. It was prepared for release within all of the context of the current music business/industry.

Further, as I've said a MILLION times now, those industry factors have NOTHING to do with the delays on "Feel Flows." The issues regarding the hold up on "Feel Flows" are totally separate internal issues.

How streaming impacts the industry and artists is a real topic, as is the usefulness or lack thereof of singling out individual fans for legally streaming music uploaded by the labels, but all of that should have a *separate* thread. There are many, many issues and ills befalling the music industry, but talking about that instead of lobbying for a set that WASN'T and ISN'T a victim of those industry issues is not helping anything.

In *this* thread, it is 100% distracting from the goal of lobbying and telling the band and all parties that we want this set. If the hang up behind the scenes had ANYTHING to do with issues of the eroding market for purchashing vs. streaming, I'd say so. That is NOT the case here.

Any people out there that would *not* want the "Feel Flows" set's non-release to be discussed would love for the topic here to shift to haranguing *individual* fans for streaming music.

So this thread can only discuss the non-release of Feel Flows? And cannot include other relevant conversations and ideas? Such as Feel Flows being a copyright-oriented project, and the post from Alan Boyd about supporting such releases by purchasing vs. streaming? And how this may relate to future releases - which does in fact include Feel Flows?

I'm not the moderator, so I can't answer that. If "Feel Flows" were announced for release, then the question of HOW to purchase it or listen to it would seem more worth discussing *right now*. But right now we're trying to convince them to release the set, so getting bogged down in pages of trying to guilt one or two fans for streaming music seems counterproductive.

The stuff you're talking about isn't any more germane to "Feel Flows" than the myriad of other music industry issues.

Discussing purchasing vs. streaming is an interesting topic (I have plenty of thoughts myself), so regardless of what's "allowed", I think it would make sense to start another thread, because right now we're talking about THAT instead of talking about why the set should be released.

It's ridiculous in my view to let a few people's fixation on this "streaming isn't supporting the artists" issues bog down a thread that really needs to focus on lobbying for the release of the set.

Well you keep moving the target.

I'm talking about Alan Boyd's post - which is interesting and relevant IMO - letting fans know that lack of purchasing of the copyright sets threatens the continuation of the sets. Regardless of the drama surrounding how that post came about, and how it was introduced into this thread (I'm not participating in that part), I think that is valid and legit.

It's particularly valid in the scenario in which FF is released as a deluxe box set but maybe doesn't sell as much as expected because everyone is streaming it. Then maybe we don't get another lavish set, and just get basic dumps with bare minimum. I am personally most looking forward to a 1976-era set tbh. And I would wish that that particular set is a multi-disc physical box, vinyl, etc.

So what is the big conspiracy here? I don't see how a thread that becomes a circle jerk of "I really want FF to come out!" is really any more helpful than an active conversation with a natural flow. What exactly, in your opinion, should people be discussing here?

The point in bold:

In this specific case, what is still being lost sometimes in the discussion is that the Feel Flows set was approved, given the green light, worked on, completed, and is now sitting that way without a projected release date. Obviously if it got that far in the process, the possible lack of sales and support was not an issue, the possible lack of support and sales due to digital streaming isn't an issue, and currently those issues are not holding up the set. We've been told by people directly involved that the *label wants it*.

So any issues going back to 2018 don't seem to have been an issue here if the set was originally approved, the project was completed, and the label wants it. And we're told the issues from 2018 that were resurrected through whatever ulterior motives were at play had nothing to do with this. Does anything more need to be said?

Of course it's important for fans to support and buy such material - You currently have 1,400 of them on a petition saying they'd support it and buy it, and you have people here posting repeatedly that they support and buy it.

I guess I don't understand why a series of posts from 2018 continues to be an issue when all of the support and willingness to buy this set has been demonstrated over and over again, and all the names on that petition and writing their thoughts here back it up.

If more voices in support of this are needed, then take it to other media outlets beyond the fan base. It was great to see Joel give it a good write-up in his publication. The fan base is already on board. We've been repeatedly saying we're on board for weeks. The petition is still getting signatures saying "we're on board".

I don't think the issue is any lack of fan support at this point. I don't think it ever was to be honest, minus those stunts pulled earlier this week trying and failing to suggest otherwise. The fans, the label, and if social media is any indication, several principles directly involved are on board with this set.

I think most people who know about the existence of this completed set have already signed the petition, or posted here in support. The fans are speaking loudly. If that's not enough, get it into the hands of the online music press.

Regarding streaming versus physical product, I wrote some of my thoughts in a separate topic. Anyone is welcome to do the same. I don't think, in my own personal opinion, that trying to get into the feasibility of streaming versus physical product carries much weight in 2020 especially when that delivery system has been in place now for years. The only solution to this dilemma would be to restrict all streaming purchases and limit releases to only physical product, and I think that wouldn't make sense in the simplest business terms to wipe out all of that potential revenue over aesthetics. People who want the physical product will buy it, people who do not buy physical product will pay to stream it. As long as the music gets out there to people who want it, and revenue is collected from doing it, they can coexist. And if the system in place is the issue, where new releases are available to stream, it's an issue far beyond the fans' reach to where the labels would have to be convinced to cut off streaming for their artists. I really can't see anything like that with big labels and major artists involved happening.

The debates have been ongoing for decades, it's the formats and preferred delivery systems for the music (and film media) which have changed. What no one who knows the industry would disagree with is that the music industry, let's focus on the concept of the "labels", was caught fast asleep when the entire delivery system of music changed and the audience didn't wait for the labels to catch up. And the labels still have not caught up which is why the old business model of record companies was destroyed and left in rubble and they're still not sure what to do.

Even the ways in which the artists, songwriters, and publishers are fairly compensated when their music is bought, broadcast, or played on demand in general is still a confusing mess.

But seriously, when have performers and writers *ever* gotten a fair shake when a label was involved? If anyone says "Oh, but, in the old days the labels did this or that for their artists..." I'd suggest taking a weekend and doing some research into exactly how "well" the labels handled artists in terms of compensation. I believe for years, decades actually, the payment rate on a record sold was something like half a penny (US) or less. So who got the other 99.5 cents from every dollar spent on an artist's work? That's what needs to be learned and remembered.

So yes, I agree the streaming services and the payment systems in place do not favor the artists. But neither did the old system. The only way an artist would get a bigger piece of the pie even in the pre-digital era would be if they literally pressed their own albums or singles and sold them directly to fans, or somehow got those records into the shops. Ani DiFranco was one of the bigger examples of this - She formed her own label Righteous Babe and did it on her own terms. Was she playing the Pepsi Mega-Smash Tour 1998 next to Christina/Britney/etc and Smash Mouth? Maybe not, but she got more of a percentage of the sale when her records sold than someone on Sony/BMG would be getting. Ani also managed to cultivate a large and loyal fan base who supported her music whether she has Beiber-level online media numbers or not.

So how does all of this relate to a box set in 2020?

Consider the hype just started over a Beatles deluxe coffee-table hardcover book covering the Let It Be sessions. Wait...I thought the hardcover book industry was almost dead thanks to Bezos and Amazon and the Kindle and online reading and all of that? Wait, I thought no one was buying deluxe edition books because people were living with less "stuff" and living in small city apartments and didn't have the storage space. Wait, I thought most book consumers were carrying Kindles around so they could read on the subway or bus heading for their jobs in the big city? Wait, I thought music that is 50 years old had no viable market and no one cared?

Obviously none of those market analysis blurbs were accurate, and on top of that, 2020 changed the entire game not just for the music industry but for life as we knew it in February 2020.

That Beatles hardcover deluxe coffee-table book will sell. It was part of the marketing blitz supposed to surround the Peter Jackson cut of Let It Be, Jackson even wrote the forward to this book, but that got postponed obviously. Yet the book is set to come out and is already generating a buzz.

I guess the point with this Beatles book example is even in this current market, even in a market that was supposedly destroyed by Kindles and online readers and whatnot, here comes a huge Beatles hardcover book onto the market.

If there is a market for that book in Fall 2020, despite all the business trends which said there wouldn't be, surely the same market of buyers exists for deluxe edition box sets from legacy artists. Surely that kind of deluxe physical product can coexist with the streaming and downloading and social media delivery systems where the Beatles still thrive and reach their audience.

I don't think streaming sales are hurting the legacy artists all that much. Indie artists, yes because the marketing and brand establishment simply isn't there for the millions of industry artists competing for clicks and streams with Cardi B. But here are The Beatles as a brand offering a coffee-table book for fans who are the market for that kind of item, and kids can listen to their music online while doing homework, and people can have their earbuds blasting "Here Comes The Sun" anytime they want. It's a coexistence that will have to be accepted by artists...and hopefully for the indie artists they will eventually get some collective muscle and clout to get that royalty and payment rate up to a reasonable amount so they get more of every dollar when their work is used.

Just consider the lawsuits which were filed back in the day against cassette tape and videotape machine companies by labels and the music industry because they thought fans at home taping off the radio and TV and getting a decent quality copy on affordable blank tape would "kill" the record business. It didn't. What destroyed the business was the business itself literally sleeping through the biggest revolution in media and delivery systems to consumers that the industry had seen probably since the invention of broadcast radio.

So I don't see streaming hurting these bigger labels and major legacy artists and I still see a wide open market for deluxe books and box set releases coexisting with the online digital formats. It's like marketing always has been done: You have to inform people that it's out there and convince them that they want to buy it. Specific to the Feel Flows set, you already have the core fans saying they want to buy it. If a Beatles book on the Let It Be sessions is generating buzz already in an era when hardcover books were written off as niche items that are dinosaurs from a previous era...surely a box set of amazing Beach Boys music can find a place too.

You totally missed the point of john’s post. He was not talking about gf listening to the set on youtube as you state. He was talking about gf telling one of the main compilers of those sets that he would not buy the set and that he was glad he downloaded it illegally on the internet. Boasting in fact he was glad he did. And telling this to alan. So much so alan replied that post was appalling. Alan also wrote to gf another post about it. You have a mod telling alan he will illegally dl those sets. Putting future releases in jeopardy. And you wonder why alan hasn’t posted here since. If this kinda thing happened in any company in the usa that person would be let go. And yet gf is still a mod. That is the definition of appalling.

Plus gf hasn’t ever said much of anything about those boastful posts.

That was what john was referring to.

In advance of what I'm going to reply to Steve so the truth actually gets told, I'm not doing this to derail or distract from the box set discussions. But when someone posts what are either outright lies or distortions against me, I get a chance to reply. So here it is.

Getting this out of the way first, Steve, I did in fact address this the day it all happened and posted a reply publicly. If anyone reached out to me privately on this issue I also discussed it with them off the board. Maybe you missed this or conveniently ignored it, but here is that exact reply with the date and link. After writing that, I said my peace and apologized. Until you and manning carried over to this forum this week, some two years after it happened and in Manning's case four years after he last posted here, my words have been on this forum for anyone to read.

But I'm proud to say I didn't pay a dime for them and got them for free online. My principle is, if certain names are attached and others left off of any project related to the Beach Boys, I don't give them a dime or a penny of my money. Best money I never spent.

It is becoming so incredibly difficult to get the corporate support that enables these highly specialized niche oriented projects to happen at all. Proudly stating that you won't pay a dime for a project because I acknowledged AGD for historical research in the special thanks isn't just a matter of availing yourself of the YouTube option. It feels more like a sort of boycott.  And this time it hurts a little, because (as you may have noticed), there is no promotion for this year's stack of tracks. We're hoping and praying that people who appreciate the hard work that goes into these projects will support that work by buying copies/downloads and proving to Universal Music that there is a market for this kind of Beach Boys archival collection.

The attention and feedback you all have given over the years has been inspiring. As for the stuff between the message boards and whatever it is we stepped in that made you decide to not actually purchase our latest work.... I don't know what to say to that. I hope you'll change your mind, because we need all the help we can get out here.

I appreciate the hard work, Alan, both you and Mark have been a Godsend to the fans and your persistence in getting this material out and love for the material itself...we're blessed to have you where you are, doing what you do! I'd never, ever suggest anything less.

I understand where it would hurt, but I would ask in return that you also understand how bad things were on a personal level between Doe and people I call my friends (and me, too), to where they were being lied about and trashed by a guy using his status as a "historian" to behave that way. And that hurt them, and me too to see what was going on behind the shroud of "insider" Beach Boys circles. There are lines one simply does not cross on basic human decency levels, and in some of these cases, lines were crossed which to this day there have been no apologies or even admissions that things should not have been said or done.

So I'll say again, I'm not advocating a boycott, I'm not saying don't buy this, but when I saw that credit it did put a dark cloud over it *for me* personally. I would think if the credit was for research, Ian Rusten among a few others would have deserved a credit too considering the sheer volume of research he's added through the years, especially to the site hosted by Doe.

But again, that's just me. If my wording on the "free" point was confusing, as I think it was, I'm sorry for that. If it felt like I was calling for a boycott, I absolutely was not. But just the same, seeing those credits did put a damper on the whole thing for me, and I had to be honest when I said that earlier, but perhaps in not the right choice of words. I want as many people as possible to hear this amazing music, I'd never suggest otherwise. But for me, the credits honestly did have an effect on my view of it and I wish that were not the case - My own hang-up.

Steve wrote: " He was talking about gf telling one of the main compilers of those sets that he would not buy the set and that he was glad he downloaded it illegally on the internet."

Totally false statement, Steve. I never said such a thing. I also never downloaded the set illegally on the internet. Don't charge me with things I didn't do, or tell people I said something I never said. The proof is in my archived posts. Perhaps you should check your facts before making accusations like this.

Steve wrote: "You have a mod telling alan he will illegally dl those sets. Putting future releases in jeopardy. And you wonder why alan hasn’t posted here since."

Bullshit, Steve. Again I never said I would download this set illegally, and I never did. Again as you can see in my posts, the set was posted on the official Beach Boys YouTube channel when it first came out, and I listened there. Not that it's any of your business, but I also paid for the set later through Amazon Music. So again, get your facts straight before lying about me and what I said or did.

The issue of this having anything to do with the Feel Flows box set has already been addressed by multiple people here. It is ridiculous, and as you've already been told by someone who actually knows what's going on, it has nothing to do with the current issues surrounding Feel Flows.

Steve wrote: "If this kinda thing happened in any company in the usa that person would be let go. And yet gf is still a mod. That is the definition of appalling."

Ok Steve, let's run your example another way. Let's say you had someone doing work for any company who had a decade-plus history of spreading lies and gossip about people in that company. Let's say some of those lies and gossip got revealed one day. Let's go even further and say the lies and gossip being spread by that person was about the spouse and family of one of that company's board members, not just a board member but one of the founders of that company.

Steve, how long do you think THAT person would last at the company? Do you think they'd be asked to do any more work for that company? Do you think they'd be invited to the company Christmas party and get thanked in the program?

How long do you think it would take before that person was out on their ass in the street once years of their lies and gossip about a founder and board member's wife came to light?

Well, you'll have to plug in the names in that example. It's funny how "appalling" you claim my comments were yet you seem to have no problem at all sitting silent through years of the other example which actually happened. Hint: The company name was BRI and the band's name was the Beach Boys. Fill in the rest...and next time try not to project dirty laundry that goes beyond anything you've tried to pin on me onto another example.

Appalling is g*ddamned right. Years of mocking and bashing a founding Beach Boys' wife...I guess in the book of Steve, that's not near as appalling as listening to tracks on YouTube. For fucks sake, take a dose of reality and perspective next time.

Steve wrote: "Plus gf hasn’t ever said much of anything about those boastful posts."

See my quote above from 2018.

Steve wrote: "That was what john was referring to."

I guess you're speaking for John Manning since he hasn't bothered to come back to respond or reply to questions asked of him two days ago? Or is this part of the email you sent him? Well, if you email him again, you can pass on the message that a few questions were asked of him, in case he missed them. Or maybe his first and only visit in four years was just to do a drive-by and try to take some shots at me. Anyway, if you are speaking for him now, pass it on to him if you would.


One last thing. Steve, you may have issues with me and that's perfectly fine. You can address them with me any time. But don't post outright lies and other bits of info that are false, especially when the exact words from years past are archived on this board and available for anyone to read. And don't try to place the blame for a box set not coming out on me when it's not only ridiculous, but you don't have a clue on the reasons why. It makes you look foolish (you can pass that on to Manning as well), especially in this case when what you posted doesn't match at all what was said or done. Oh, and this whole thing about bootlegs and illegal downloads and whatnot...I did get the message you sent me last summer offering me some unreleased Beach Boys material. I ignored it and never replied, but I'll make that right and do so now:

No thanks.