And maybe on this obscure site called Wiki-somthin' 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Nilsson

And that's why you can't trust Wikipedia...

It's Beckley-Lamm-Wilson. That's what it says on the disc, and Carl is hardly on the finished the track. He handles backing vocals mostly.... Probably cos one of the other fellas has a rather Nilsson-esque tone. Was this the last thing released by him before his death, or did Stars & Stripes come later?

Heroes & Villains went as far as it could IMO, an there are rumours that Capitol did some work under the table to move it as high as #12. It's all opinions, but I don't think a December / February / April H&V release would have made much difference. Well, if they had released the Cantina version in Feb, without any discernible chorus, it would have REALLY bombed. Not everything that charted high in USA between 67-70 was corroborated by Jann Wenner. In fact, very little. If the Beach Boys' singles and albums flopped, that means there wasn't a public for them. Other acts with even less credibility sold well or very well. Go figure.

Well, i was wondering about that myself. The 'commerciality' of the Cantina, or any other version that brian assembled is purely hypothetical... and the Cantina version is somewhat barmy. As for the Jan Wenner, it's quicker to type his name than 'assorted hipper-than-thou types, underground press writers, attendees of Monterey Pop, etc waiting to be impressed by Brian & co', if you get my point. The beach boys had definite image problems since Smile, you must admit. Most acts with less credibility don't have the stigma of 5 years of 'uncool' surfing music behind them and the name which instantly reminds you of it.

And funnily enough, after following Love's (and the others, i guess) advice (which, after Good Vibrations, seems particularly suicidal), The Beach Boys didn't have another hit til the 80's.

They didn't have another hit til 1976 (R'n'R Music sucks but it's there, what can we do?) because Brian couldn't write another one after Good Vibrations. Simple as that. Neither could Carl, Al, Mike, Bruce, Dennis, Blondie and Ricky, to be fair. A hit is a hit, Joe Public doesn't care if it's avant-garde or americana or bubblegum, they just turn on the radio and dig the track. Or not.

I didn't know R'n'R was a hit. But it sort of proves my point about publicity. Everyone was talking about the BB's, they release a single, and people get interested and buy it. The same would've happened with H&V....maybe.
it's not down to songwriting quality *insert how much i love Wild Honey/Sunflower/Friends/etc here*, but more that the public just wouldn't listen cos they were the beach boys, y'know? they saw it as square surfin' music. The songwriting quality was, whilst not Good Vibes, still of a chart-bothering quality, and they had evolved a long ways artistically. Breakaway is the perfect example. Smile, if released on the crest of that publicity, would have given the beach boys some artistic credibility among the yoof, which would have equated to record sales later on in the decade. People listened to Jann Wenner back then. And the blame isn't solely Mike's, that's true. The lawsuit couldn't have been timed any worse, for instance. But... the thread asked whether Mike was right. And i don't believe he is.

Of course, if i saw my cousin/meal ticket hosting bizarre parties in recording studios staging arguments with his druggie friends instead of making a record (and a bloody strange one at that), i would be worried. I'm not 100% on Brian's side, either. Some of his behaviour was a little....questionable. The music, on the other hand, wasn't. Smile is anything but a case of black and white. But my main point is - Smile would have sold and guaranteed the beach boys credibility among the press/record-buyers like Rubber Soul did the beatles, and the hits might have lasted a little longer, which was his main concern. Opposing Smile caused the opposite of that....That of course, is my opinion. 

all your points make a lot of sense, but.... Mike Love wasn't right. His basic argument was that Smile wouldn't sell, right? Crazy acid alliteration that no-one could relate to, with loads of bonkers 'ego music' in there that makes no sense. Stick to making surfing tunes. they sell.  Nevermind that rock music was moving with brian, very obviously, and there was a lot of press for the album which all basically claimed it to be the second coming of american music. Not even Sgt. Pepper got that sort of pre-release hubbub. So the absolute worse thing to do would be to scrap it, right? And funnily enough, after following Love's (and the others, i guess) advice (which, after Good Vibrations, seems particularly suicidal), The Beach Boys didn't have another hit til the 80's.
If the consensus is that Mike was doing it to save the band, then he's wrong. I fail to see how he could be 'right' in this situation. The beach Boys were ruined commercially, rubbished in the music press and never had the same amount of artistic credibility (which, as they learned later in decade, sells records) again. Mike Love bitches about the beatles being more artistically valued, but that's hypocritical of him. He stymied that creativity. Imagine if George had put the brakes on Pepper because it wasn't 'Please Please Me'? It sounds crazy, right? In my opinion, 'right' would be encouraging Brian to release Smile whilst all the press attention was on him, the Beatles still at work on pepper, and be first with the all-important 'new sound', which even he knew was important. Which is why Heroes failed when it was released. The timing had been ruined (all musical arguments about the Smiley version aside).
Mike Love had a point, granted, but i happen to think that point wasn't based on anything approaching an awareness of music and where it was going at that time. He based it on what he saw at the shows, which is ridiculous. If it were 2, 3 years earlier, he'd have been right. I wouldn't say Mike love was a bad guy, but.... he wasn't bright. And i guess Brian is partly to blame for not convincing the group enough.

i think it just did the rounds at film festivals. It definitely hasn't been released on this side of the pond... 

[KTSA]

"Suzie" ...would have been on KTSA had Eddie agreed to relinquish his credit on it.

Erm, and to whom would credit have then been given?

I don't quite follow the band's thinking on that, given that they hardly needed the royalties, and that they covered Chuck Berry's "School Days (Ring Ring Goes the Bell)" on the same album.

How many others songs might they have similarly stolen... I mean, appropriated ... from other musicians, composers and lyricists over the years?

Well, in the case of a recent release by a member of The Beach Boys, some of the credits are, shall we say, less than entirely accurate, which might have something to do with a name being notably absent from the "thanks" section of the liners. Allegedly. 

Oh you tease, with your rolly eyes and all 

if Phil Spector can update his twitter that regularly, LA jails must have better internet reception than my house. It's gotta be fake, he's hurling insults at 'gene simmons'.... 

That's funny, on my copy it's a smile-era vocal session where Mike is explaining 'the formula' to Brian. Now the sound isn't perfect, but it appears to a) presented as a slideshow, and b) involve 'mostly surfin', drivin', women', and surfin'.

 

that never, ever fails to make me cry/laugh/have an out-of-body experience. It's probably the worst rap song i've ever heard, bar none.   

I totally agree. They should start putting out depressing songs in the winter and happy songs in the summer. Every year. With one or two stereo mixes to keep people buying. And each one should be louder than the last. aNd there should be club mix mixes. Too.

And heavy metal mixes, also...with loud, thrashing guitars and drums, and growling vocals overdubbed by none other than the members of Metallica.
Duh duh duh duh duh THEEEEESE THIIIIIIINGS IIIIIIII'LLLL BEEEEEE UUUUUNTIIIIILLLL IIIIII DIIIIIEEEEE!!!!!! duh duh duh duh duh 

Somewhere, Mike Love gets another idea for a Beach Boys album.... 

A World Of Peace Must Come? or am i dreaming that was released....

i liked the Spitz one - it's well written and satisfyingly chunky, although i haven't heard anything about his reputation. Norman's new Lennon book is also pretty good, unless you're a macca fan, obviously.

http://mp3.rhapsody.com/brian-wilson/that-lucky-old-sun-aol-sessions

and - o how lovely - US-customers only?

well, maybe I-tunes will work...


EDIT: hm, AGD outbeat me already on that...

try Amazon mp3 

the last verse is completely different - Instead of the epic ending, they go for another full verse with some duller ones. witness - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFXXyRFPSwY
the rest is the same though, you're right. I prefer the 70's version cos of the greatness of that ending. it's a cracking song with that

It's the last time Carl sounds a little drugged so to speak, but I do still like their version. I never heard one I disliked but I don't care for some of the lyrics in Brian's remake from 2002.

i wouldn't mind the new lyrics so much if they didn't replace the ending verse, which is just too good. Apart from that, it's perfectly inoffensive. Could've been one of their great 70's tunes with a slightly bigger production, i think

The production/dynamics of that track is incredible too, lest we forget. The big swells of timpani into the verses, that bassline in the verses (which is effin' mental from a musical perspective), the storm of noise in the choruses, and the modulations towards the end that Shane pointed out.... It'd be my favourite production on Pet Sounds, if it wasn't for WIBN, GOK, Sloop John, YSBIM, Trombone Dixie, IWFTD, Here Today, Don't Talk...  

He's trying to avoid Santa Ana Winds as much as he can...but he's doing everything he can for HCTN?? WOW Bruce! oops

And people think Brian was the crazy one 

ok, this might sound like the vaguest request ever.... 

does anyone have that photo of Brian and Mike sitting on a bench giving each other the craziest looks? It's black n white, 60's vintage i think, they're outside a house (maybe bellagio) with the camera facing Brian. I saw it ages ago and loved it, but obivously 'brian mike bench' doesn't get you far in google images

and might i say....

Damn!   

i've heard the cost for Good Vibes fluctuate from $35,000 to $90,000. Unless there's a few miles of tape we haven't heard, $50,000  sounds a bit pricy.... Plus, some of those 80 sessions were just the Beach Boys, or maybe the Vosse Posse (The lifeboat tape was done at a studio, wasn't it?). Actually.... did the BB's get paid for studio work? i presume not, but i'm not sure of the facts

Sheriff, most of what you're pointing out - interviews, voice, cba-approach to recording - isn't really related to completing Smile. Completing that won't stop interviewers asking about Pet Sounds, or the obvious detrimental effects of his drug abuse on his voice and attention span, (and age not making that any better) and that's what we see. I think that completing Smile to such acclaim must have a positive effect on his mind.  How could it not?
So basically, i'm saying Smile helps his mind, but the day-to-day professional life gets the better of him sometimes. We see the negative effects of that more than the positive effect of completing that (the recent wave of songwriting, with TLOS and it's bonus tracks, is much better than Imagination imo and the two could well be related)

Sampled Harpsichords, anyone? 

Thank God no-one was hurt. hang in there

Any artist who puts out an album or tours is trying to make money.

I certainly don't think BWPS was put out solely for money. The guy doesn't need it anymore, and it's not like Smile sold millions of copies - I don't think anyone expected that.

Regardless, finishing it DID seem to have a positive effect on Brian, which I think is a very good thing.

1. ANY artist? Dylan, McCartney, Paul Simon, Ray Davies, Clapton? Do you think any of them are thinking much about the money these days?

2. They (Brian's team) could profit in other ways than album sales; see my above post.

3. In this thread, I have read several posters state that BWPS had a positive effect on Brian. Can somebody list some? I see a Brian who has aged since BWPS (yes, I know he's older); he hasn't looked well in some of the recent appearances; he appears to be slurring again in interviews and doesn't appear as focused. I was listening to BW88 and Imagination lately. When taking the bulk of the tunes off both of those albums and comparing them to WIRWFC and TLOS, I don't see much difference in quality or performance (I think his vocal on "Goin' Home" is one of his worst since 15 Big Ones). He has employed better producers and collaborators; I'll give him credit for that. But what am I supposed to see in Brian that BWPS made better?

I point you to the The Beatles Rock Band, coming out in september. A fine highpoint in the Fab Fours artistic career, totally not done for $$$.
Of course they think about money. everyone does, regardless of how much they have.

And AGD just said they didn't profit in anyway from touring, so i don't have to talk about that. They lost half a million dollars! How much more proof do you need?

And no-one said we expected Brian to suddenly snap back to his old self.  And he's not getting younger, and he hates interviews, and life on the road sucks for him. But that's different stuff. i think BWPS helped him psychologically. It's closure for a source of deep pain for him. That's not Leaf-esque blather, it's common sense. It's not going to reverse 30 years of all kinds of drug abuse and the mental effects thereof. But it's something, right?

That's my opinion. You don't agree. Fine.

Of course. All's cool

Ike + Tina Turner - "Save The Last Dance For Me" !
Indisputable musical inspiration for verses of "Heroes & Villains".

In Priore's book, it claims 'The Bells Of St. Mary' (the spector cut) as the inspiration for the bassline of H&V.

But then, people here wouldn't trust Priore as far as they could throw him... 

Also, Marty Robbins' 'El Paso' was another inspiration for the 'vibe' of 'H&V'. That western frontier thing...

it didn't sell millions of copies, and as Luther et al were saying up there, touring a 12 piece band and orchestra round the world for a year doesn't come cheap. there are more profitable ways to fleece Brian, if that were the case.

I think the "my wife and managers pushed me to do it" response is fairly innocuous.

The response is innocuous. The truth behind the response is not innocuous.

What? 'grrr, finish Smile and i'll give you a milkshake?' Please. Even Landy couldn't get Smile out.