[50BO]

Ah, so now you're backpeddaling by saying you didn't actually mean the 50BO release, but in a generic "greatest hits" manner. So suddenly we're supposed to be psychic and understand what you really meant. If you'd said "2/3 of it is hits", then I'd be more inclined to cut you a bit of slack.

Except that even that's not right - by my count there are 44 tracks that made on the Billboard Hot 100 singles chart 1962-1988, and rusty as my math is, 44 out of 170-odd is not 66.67%. More like 25%. Not two-thirds, but one-quarter. Like I said, piss-poor math.  Bottom line - you use numbers to support or make a point, good idea to make sure they add up the way you say they do. Gives the impression you actually do know WTF you're talking about.

Back-peddling?  Hardly!  Doubling down.  Clarifying.  Standing up for the little guy!!

And you're doing it again... with the term 'greatest hits!'  I don't mean top 40, top 10.  Geez... I'm just saying (golly what do I call it) the normal compilation stuff.  No, that's no good either.

1/3 is 50 Big ones.
1/3 of this would be 50 Big Ones, Part 2

The last 1/3 -- and maybe it's 38.689876%  (okay... I don't care!) -- is the stuff we'll be talking about once you agree with me and admit that we're paying A LOT of money for 2 (two and 1/2) discs.   

 

This is just painful.  

It's essentially the guy from Swingers who leaves a tongue tied vm on a girl's machine, then calls back to try to explain himself, but keeps making it worse and worse with every message.

Really bud, you're better off just backing away and cutting your losses.

I was under the impression he meant length as opposed to quantity. The life suite in its entirety is long.

Yup!  "Sunflower" or "Today" would have more tracks, but they're shorter ones.  

I have to admit - I'm still not getting why the length of the songs, or the total length of the albums (within reason), should have anything to do with whether or not they be included on the box? As I mentioned, the Surf's Up album proper is represented by 18+ minutes of music, so it wasn't like there was some kind of hard rules or set limit. Heck, the Sunflower album, related singles and session material look like they're somewhere in the 30 minute range at casual glance! Conversely, some albums had little to no representation.

In the case of TWGMTR, it would be roughly 16:50 for 5 songs, or 13:10 if they just went with 4 (i.e. say, minus Isn't It Time). With those 3 final tracks totaling less than 10 minutes. Hardly an over-representation of the album if one deems it quality material. And, judging by nearly everything I've read in the past 12 months, most people seem to consider those final 3 tracks the highlight of the album, and arguably the best tracks the band has released in nearly 35 years. If that isn't "comprehensive box set material"...I don't know what is!

And while I personally think "Radio" is a great album, in terms of telling the story of the band it's not worth that big a chunk (especially given what else would have to be lost).  The two singles and "Summer's Gone" would be my preference...

Well, for me, as well as the telling of the band's and album's story, I would lose Isn't It Time for FTTBA and PCH in a heartbeat.

Opinions....lol.  

Not sure why this doesn't seem to be said out loud ... but I think if you're looking to get the casual fan to notice the last album, From There to Back Again (and only that song) is far and away the best choice IMO.

Brian's the genius of course, but Al's the one who can still sing.  And for many people, that makes From There to Back Again a quite listenable contrast to the songs with Brian's halting vocals.

Unfortunately, band politics probably prevented the compilers from recognizing that reality.

I agree that AC as submitted wasn't very good. And I'm not an On Broadway fan.

But "Life is for the Living," "Lines," "It's Trying to Say" and "Everybody Wants to Live" all deserve release alongside "It's Over Now" and "Still I Dream of It." That's a great batch of tunes that deserves to be heard.

Agree on Lines and Everybody Wants to Live.  Interesting Love Youesque tunes.

Completely disagree on Life Is for the Living and It's Trying to Say, neither of which belong anywhere close to an official release, IMO.

HeyJude-

I appreciate the MIC "More commentary" on your BB Opinion Page.  I think you effectively state the good and the bad from the fan's perspective, and make a valiant attempt to explain why we're getting what we're getting.

I don't expect the temper tantrums on this site to stop anytime soon, but maybe if they read your commentary and give themselves a chance to calm down...

I'm surprised no one has mentioned (in any thread that I've seen) the instrumental When Girls Get Together.  The lyrics destroy the song, IMO, but the track itself is very nice, and good enough to stand on its own.

Same thing for Salt Lake City.  The vocals are nails on a chalkboard to me, but the instrumental is fantastic.

Would have been great to hear a version of Little Pad without the stoned laughter, but maybe that does not exist.

Gotta say I'm surprised to see people want things like It's a New Day and It's Trying to Say.  To my ears, both sound like TV commercials at best, and that off-key crescendo in It's Trying to Say is surely embarrassing to the group.

Was hoping for Carry Me Home, but aside from sq issues, it seems like it still needs work.  The opening is too abrupt, and it's a dirge from start to finish.

I guess Jon Blum’s post is a good segue to a thought that’s been swimming around my brain. It’s a bit morbid. Bear with me. So Capitol continually banks on baby boomers buying these Beach Boys compilations year after year, right? The fans that grew up with the band. The guys who are losing or already lost their hair and might even wear a Hawaiian shirt every now and then . People who don’t know how to illegally download music without a younger family member around to show them, but even then would opt for a physical release because that’s what they’ve known their whole life, that’s the only way they legitimize a music release. And they have some money to throw around and buy this stuff, right? Well...these people...are going to be dead soon... I know, i know, this isn’t exactly the sort of subject we want to be thinking about now. But i was thinking, when that market no longer exists (and the sad reality is that the band members are obviously in the same demographic), do you think Capitol will maybe shift their sales approach a bit regarding the BB to a younger, “cooler”/“edgy” (i think i just vomited in my mouth a little bit) demographic and focus on less commercial ventures, things that transcend the massive Beach Boys branding, and are more niche, off the wall, and generally considered more “artistic”? (Sorry about all the terms in quotation marks) Do we just need to wait, i don’t know, twenty years or so? Or am i talkin' poppycock?

Sincere apologies for the grim topic. It's hard not to wonder though what the decision making process for these sort of BB releases is going to look like when the guys themselves and the fans of their age group who are largely responsible for perpetuating a certain image of the Beach Boys are no longer around... 

"Hawaiian" shirts (actually called Aloha shirts) aren't just for the older set.  Some of us wear them every work day.

There are others - "East Meets West", "Happy Endings", "Lady Liberty", "Crocodile Rock", "Wipeout", "Still Cruisin", "Somewhere Near Japan", "Problem Child", "Hot Fun In The Summertime", and an argument could even be made for "The Beach Boys' Medley", which was a Top 15 hit. Again, I don't think the sales or musical merit (which is subjective) should dictate their historical significance. Each one of them had a purpose, a story behind them - THEY WERE LEGITIMATE RELEASES BY THE BEACH BOYS! To me, the perfect place to house all of these records would be a boxed set. 

The problem is that many of the singles that the band released after a certain point weren't very good. I do think that they had to make a decision based on perceived quality as well as whether things were released as singles or whatever.

Another problem is that record companies aren't museums, and they don't care about what is "deserved."  They're businesses that are motivated by making money.  It just isn't realistic to think otherwise.

If you think that certain recordings should be preserved for all to hear, you should try petitioning the Nationl Recording Registry or something similar.

Each copy of this could have come with an invitation to Brian's place for a barbeque, and someone would have complained.

Well, yeah.  First off, we've all had barbecue many times.  I can't believe they would force anyone to eat the same old burgers, potato salad, etc.

Plus, why only a barbecue?  You know Brian's got better food inside the house.  Why keep all that from us?  I mean, we're customers, and the customer is always right.

And that would just show how hypocritical the group is.  Brian's told us for years to avoid "juicy steaks" and the like, but now he goes and tries to force us to eat that stuff?  Sheesh.  I mean, maybe if it's grass-fed and organic, but even then, we'd have to pay big bucks just to get there, and who knows if we'd even get directions.  Might force us to use the description from that Friends song, and ... uh ... wait, I have lots more to complain about.  Give me a minute...

[free]

When words are all we can use to express a thought, no, definitions can not be relative. I take issue as well with your use of disingenuous.

dis·in·gen·u·ous  insincere - false - devious - hollow-hearted.

This box set is nothing more than what it has always purported to be. A career spanning retrospective with some rarities thrown in for good measure. If any of you feel "ripped off" it's because you placed (yourself) unrealistic expectations on the product and you can blame nowt but yourselves for that. The hyperbole and hand wrenching and (self)righteous indignation is getting really tiresome.

Another thing to keep in mind is that some of the newly released material would be more highly valued by most people if it had not already been available for free through illegal downloads.  I bet the majority of posters on this thread have received at least some free music that way, and a few have downloaded several or more hours worth.

I'm no apologist for record companies.  They certainly take advantage of consumers at times (as well as artists).  But to some degree, it evens out.

[a fabulous two- or three-disc set of the 15 Big Ones sessions]

I think Monicker makes some good and bad points. On one hand, I do think the box will sell, and I think it's easy to underestimate the number of boomers who have money to spend on something like this. I bet the vast majority of these boxes will sell to people who never listen to disc 6, or at best listen to it once uncomprehendingly.

On the other hand, I think he's spot on about the branding issue, and it's really a frustrating thing at this point. The fact that they're using that obnoxious band logo on everything makes my skin crawl. Bands with far smaller audiences have been much more imaginative in their releases. For example:

-- There could be a fabulous two- or three-disc set of the 15 Big Ones sessions, including all the oldies that were recorded, along with instrumental-only tracks.

-- You could have a multi-disc Love You set that includes the Adult Child material and some contemporaneous live work.

-- You could have a couple of discs collecting the Caribou sessions and other miscellaneous early and mid-70s rarities.

-- You could have any number of live releases.

-- You could have a killer expanded edition of Still Cruisin' that includes all the 80s soundtrack tunes.

-- You could cobble together an unreleased best of the 80s and 90s that has some of the Usher sessions material along with Brian and the band's fragmentary work from the mid-90s.

You could do all of this stuff, and there would be an audience for it. You could release it in extremely limited editions. Or in a single big box. Whatever. But the point is, a lot of this stuff doesn't fit the corporate image. And that's a real shame, because so much of the music is so good, and deserves to be heard in a definitive, released form.

Anyway, I'm still happy about the box. I think it will be a great collection, and it looks overall like something assembled with love and care. But I would love for there to be so much more.

This has to be parody.

This was posted by ShardEnder at the Steve Hoffman Forum.

I just had a quick look at Andrew G. Doe's website and managed to assemble quite the list (and not even a comprehensive one, at that!) of tracks that I feel would have been great to hear officially:

 Game Of Love
 Honey Get Home
 Walkin'
 Tears In The Morning (early lyric version)
 Carnival/Over The Waves
 My Solution
 Big Sur (early 4/4 version)
 Carry Me Home
 We Got Love
 Hard Times
 It's A New Day
 Beatrice From Baltimore*
 Rolling Up To Heaven*
 Battle Hymn Of The Republic*
 Lucy Jones*
 Grateful Are We For Little Children
 In The Back Of My Mind (1975 version)
 Runnin' Bear
 Shake, Rattle And Roll
 We Gotta Groove
 Marilyn Rovell*
 Ruby Baby (1976 version)
 Mony Mony
 Life Is For The Living
 Hey, Little Tomboy (Adult Child version)*
 Deep Purple
 Everybody Wants To Live
 Shortenin' Bread (1973 version)
 Lines
 On Broadway*
 It's Trying To Say
 New England Waltz
 That Special Feeling*
 It's Over Now (piano demo)*
 Still I Dream Of It (piano demo)*
 Love Is A Woman (piano demo)
 Mona (piano demo)
 Airplane (piano demo)
 Let's Put Our Hearts Together (piano demo)*
 I'll Bet He's Nice (piano demo)*
 Honkin' Down The Highway (alternate Billy Hinsche lead vocal mix)
 Drip Drop*
 I'm Begging You Please*
 Skatetown U.S.A.
 Calendar Girl
 Stevie*
 Oh, Lord*
 Labor Day
 Rock And Roll To The Rescue
 Problem Child
 Chasing The Sky

Any songs marked with * are ones that I'm not sure BRI would like out there for content or quality issues, but there's clearly more than enough to fill another two - maybe even three - discs with great material to keep hardcore fans satisfied. Still, I guess they'll want to keep something else locked away for the inevitable "best of" compilations and possible future anniversary boxed sets... call them financial incentives held back to make us buy the same old yet again, if you will.

Some of these have never even been booted.  They're just names, as far as we know, so you have no clue as to whether they're of releasable quality.

Other stuff like Problem Child is utter crap.

And still others are easily found on boots.

It seems that you're just looking for something to complain about, but don't really know precisely what.

So is it too soon to have Phil Cohen un-banned yet?

Please no Phil.  Please.

He would crap all over each thread with conspiracy theories (track list isn't real, set won't come out, etc.) and/or rabid criticisms of the set that make TV Forces look calm.  And of course, numerous posters would make it their mission to put him in his place rather than stick to the subject.  Let's have some sane discussion without him.

Regarding the price, I think there is a good chance Amazon will lower the price on this at some point. How much, who knows? But I think it's likely it will ultimately dip somewhat below $130.

Id say it will be around £60 on Amazon UK. Its 6 cds and a book. It doesn't seem to be all that fancy in comparison to say something like the Smile Sessions box.

Not necessarily! What is disappointing is that this is probably the last archival release in quite some time and hardly a fraction of the hoped for content actually appeared. I simply fear we will never hear these other great songs they are omitting. Apologies on my part are due since I obviously failed to point that out.

Wow – such gnashing and wailing over the contents of a boxed set.  Surely Phil Cohen’s done some sort of Vulcan mind meld with some of the people who post here.

But what is missing that people cannot live without?

Carry Me Home – For me, that’s probably the bigget omission, because the sound quality on the booted version makes it barely listenable.

California Slide – Unfinished at best, and probably not worthy of being finished.

Out in the Country – A fragment.

Adult Child tracks – They’re out there, and the sq is pretty good.

Stevie – a BW solo track, so doesn’t really belong.

Big Sur early version – Hardly crucial in my book, and it’s been booted in OK quality.

CIFOTM mono mix – Would be nice to have, but can be assembled.

My Solution – If you’re complaining about not getting this, you don’t have a lot of credibility.

[Before Smile, it was all Brian writing the music, producing. After Smike, it was all the band members writing and producing.]

Gonna have to stop you there, ORR... I am passionate about Brian and the Boys' work from 1965-1974ish more than any other era (with a hardcore love of 1966-1970), appreciate and enjoy 1962-1965 but not to quite the same level, and my interest gradually tails off after 1974. In other words, I'm not just a fan of the early 60s 'fun in the sun' stuff either.

And (here's the rub)... I don't get on too well with Dennis's stuff either. To me, it's merely OK. Some bits of it are lovely; I like the first two parts of Baby Blue a great deal, think it's the equal of much that Brian wrote in terms of conveying intense love in musical form. I think Morning Christmas is absolutely great too. I own the POB/Bamboo set, too... but I find it really hard going. I cherry-pick parts, but even then, if I'm honest, I don't listen to it that often. For me, too often, what others hear as a great, soulful rock voice is just a guy who had utterly trashed one of his prime means of expression by the time POB (mostly) was recorded and almost completely by the time Bamboo was underway. It just sounds like a guy who can't sing.

I also admit that I'm not very into rock music generally, and perhaps that's part of the problem. So much of POB and Bamboo just sound like dull 70s rock to me. Well-executed 70s rock, sure (with the exception of Dennis's vocals), and with some nice harmonic surprises in a couple of the tunes that I am happy to play now and again. But much of it just doesn't 'speak' to me. Hey... prolly just me.

I actually instantly feel an affinity for Dennis's earlier work way more readily than anything on POB or Bamboo. His tunes on Sunflower and prior to that are right up my street. And [dons flameproof suit] I would actually take 'California Slide (aka I'm Going Your Way)' over much of Bamboo in a heartbeat... [closes flameproof hatch to bunker and descends into the Earth's core]

MattB

Stop me where? I said a few people. Like my neighbors,  who left the C50 show at intermission because they had gotten to hear most of the hits they came to hear.

But there was no 65 to 74 era in my mind. Before Smile, it was all Brian writing the music, producing. After Smike, it was all the band members writing and producing.

I am a big Dennis fan, big Brian fan.

I would take issue with your dividing line, which I think actually is roughly August '68, during the period when 20/20 was recorded.  Of Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, Friends and the intial songs on 20/20, Brian was the writer or among the writers of every song but four, and one of those was partly cribbed from something he had written.  During that same mid-67 to mid-68 period, Brian also wrote Can't Wait Too Long and Old Folks at Home/Ol Man River, both very ambitious.  You could debate who produced all those songs, but at very least, Brian had a big hand in things.

Starting with fall '68, it was all very different. Brian's songs were much, much fewer, and his production duties minimal at best.

Perhaps not coincidentally, it was fall '68 when Dennis really began to show something as a songwriter.

Who the hell said WIBNTLA wasn't going to be on the set?! Source, please.

Dude who wants to be able to keep building his CD collection by hawking 30-second clips illegally.

It's times like this that make me really appreciate Andrew Doe.

Beach Boys_fr has shown himself to be as big of a douche as this board has seen, by a wide margin.  The latest ploy--pretending to know that WIBNTLA won't be on the box set so he can make more "deals"--was especially grating.   It was really very nice to see Andrew call him out.

I'm no purist when it comes to bootlegged material, but it amazes me that fr can be so disingenuous without getting more criticism.  In particular the notion that he's giving these fragments to people for "free" is laughable, given that it's actually an inducement to allow him to obtain additional "collectible" material.  He's certainly no lawyer.

Andrew was actually very restrained in his responses to this cretin.  Andrew, if there's ever a time for the old you to come out, this might be it...

This stuff is mostly all wrong. Why would anyone bother to put it on a board where the majority of posters know more and have more intelligent insight about the Beach Boys than this guy? Comedy maybe? It would take more time than he deserves to correct all the misinformation and stupid crap in his reviews. He doesn't even know how to spell Murry. This tidbit about the Surfin USA LP is typical...

"For the record, this is the only LP where Al Jardine doesn't play rhythm guitar, being temporarily replaced by 14-year old (!) neighbour David Marks."

As most of you know Jardine played no rhythm guitar until Shut Down Vol 2, (album 5) and even on that he played bass on far more songs than guitar.

Perhaps he posted it to provide a different opinion, an "outsider's" opinion.  I disagree with many of Starotsin's music reviews, but he clearly put a lot of time and energy into writing the stuff.  His ignorance of Beach Boys minutiae doesn't make his opinions of the music invalid.

Of course, the objections to these reviews aren't really based on his factual errors.  People are just offended that he isn't effusive enough in his praise of their favorite group.

Your thread title is awful.

But no.

Cue various fanatical posters complaining that the Beatles are given credit for discovering fire when in fact it was all Brian.

Every fan base has its share of people who exaggerate a group's importance and accomplishments.  Visit a board devoted to any well-known group, and you'll find some of them there.  Certainly we have plenty of them on this site.

But that doesn't justify dismissing a group's legitimately good or great work.  I just don't get the compulsion some have to drag down other bands just because some of their fans are silly.

[first]

This seemingly endless contrast with The Beatles as well as Brian's "genius" label are the biggest albatrosses The Beach Boys have had to continually deal with throughout their career.

Absolutely agreed. I don't imagine that on Beatles message boards people are starting endless threads about "who was better, the Beatles or the Beach Boys?"

Well because its part of our culture to accept that the Beatles were the best band ever. Even on this board to question this marks you out as some sort of pariah. We can talk about the Beach Boys greatness as much as we want, but the Beatles must be in there as a measuring stick.

As soon as the last of the baby boomers have gone, we may be able to start piecing together a real unbiased history.

Any history that begins with "There was all the boring music our parent listened to, and then there was rock n'roll, which had absolutely no relation to swing or big band" is bullshit. And yet that's the bullshit we're fed.

Nearly as good as "Rock n roll died in 1959, and all American and British pop was sh*t and sterile and manufactured till the Beatles came along" Another of my favourites.

I've also had someone tell me that The Beatles made the first ever psychedelic record. Members of the Hoffman board will tell you they invented Heavy Metal with Helter Skelter. I'm sure we can trace the origin of Hip Hop to one of their songs if we look hard enough....  

Ummm.  I've seen people on this board claim that the Beach Boys invented everything from rap (Games People Play) to the concept album (Little Deuce Coupe).  More recently, I've seen people claim that the Stones are to old to be on the cover of Rolling Stone, but at the same time complain that the Beach Boys should have been on the cover.

[much]

True, but The Beatles had quite a few covers. I did some quick counting, and, whilst The Beach Boys covered 9 songs in their studio albums until 1964, The Beatles did 18.

Regardless, it's not that much of a difference anyway. I guess, after all, it's more of a question that The Beatle's fillers and even covers were better.

It's just that, as a BB fan, I tend to disconsider those early fillers and pass them as a minor necessary evil, especially considering that it was pretty much Brian composing all the work.

The originals vs. covers argument might be a good one, except that some of the Beach Boys' "originals" were blooper tracks or aimless instrumentals.  I don't think Brian can take much credit for Denny's Drums.

What Brian can take credit for is being essentially Paul, John and George Martin rolled into one.  There's no question that he was doing an amazing job, given the record company's enormous demands and the relative lack of producing and song writing resources.

But at the end of the day, the results are the results.  The Beatles were simply far more consistent on their early albums.

They released 6 albums in a two year period (62-64). That's where we'd find the majority of "lows", because there were bound to be some fillers. After that (and until Sunflower), I don't see many low points (less than exceptional, of course) to be fair, but that's me.

But the Beatles were just about as prolific during that time, even though they started a few months later.

Remember that the Beach Boys' albums only had 12 tracks each, and one of the six albums had four repeated tracks on it.  So that's a total of 68 unique tracks, not including Christmas songs.

Three of the Beatles' four UK albums in 63-64 had 14 tracks, and the fourth had 13.  They also released 12 tracks that were not on those early albums (four A-sides, four B-sides and an EP).  That's a total of 67 unique tracks, not including Christmas songs.

The Beach Boys at their 66-67 peak were well above what the Beatles did or were even capable of.

But the Beach Boys at their low points were also far below the worst of the Beatles.  List every song the two groups released during the period of their co-existence, and the bottom 20 will all be Beach Boys.

IMO of course.

C'mon, Phil. Answer the question. You said that the Hoffman thread was "about whether (in the absence of "Made in California") people should seek out the 'Good Vibrations: 30 Years of The Beach Boys' box set."


Now, show me a single post in that 4-page thread, as of right now, that backs that statement of yours up.


We're all waiting.

I'm not waiting.

Please, let's not let another thread get derailed with this stuff.  It really is pointless.  You will never, ever convince this guy of anything that he does not want to believe.  It just won't happen.  Accept it and move on.

Now, let's hear a little more from adamghost.

Jeff, with all due respect, this is the first time I've ever even entertained or replied to Phil on this board after reading all his nonsense. My apologies for saying "we're" all waiting. But, *I* certainly am waiting to know why he feels the need to put words in other people's mouths and flat-out lie in the process of doing it. That's simply not right. Nor, should it be tolerated by anyone.

In all seriousness, I think it's very likely, as you said above, that he needs professional help.

Arguing with someone who is unbalanced, or at least seems to be, just does not do anyone any good.  From time to time, we all see people raving about some conspiracy or talking to themselves on the sidewalk, but we generally don't stop to debate them.  And there's really no reason to do so here.

C'mon, Phil. Answer the question. You said that the Hoffman thread was "about whether (in the absence of "Made in California") people should seek out the 'Good Vibrations: 30 Years of The Beach Boys' box set."


Now, show me a single post in that 4-page thread, as of right now, that backs that statement of yours up.


We're all waiting.

I'm not waiting.

Please, let's not let another thread get derailed with this stuff.  It really is pointless.  You will never, ever convince this guy of anything that he does not want to believe.  It just won't happen.  Accept it and move on.

Now, let's hear a little more from adamghost.