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680599 Posts in 27601 Topics by 4068 Members - Latest Member: Dae Lims March 28, 2024, 11:46:29 PM
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151  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: If there is a 1968 set, when do you guys and gals think we'll find out?? on: August 06, 2018, 07:08:03 AM
It’s fairly straightforward - 2018 is the last year in which to release material recorded in 1968 to extend the copyright protection.  If unreleased 1969 material is released in 2018, that material will have its copyright extended but for one less year than if they waited until 2019 to release it.  That one year difference is relatively trivial so if for artistic reasons they want to combine 68-69 sessions for a physical release they will probably do it.

As an example of this, Dylan’s Cutting Edge box set of all the 65-66 sessions was released in 2015.
152  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: If there is a 1968 set, when do you guys and gals think we'll find out?? on: August 05, 2018, 03:57:09 PM
Hopefully the complete Chicago 1968 concert that they pulled Friends and Little Bird from for Made in California will  be included.
153  Smiley Smile Stuff / Polls / Re: The Definite Smiley Smile Message Board's Song Ranking - Ranking Process on: July 22, 2018, 08:13:22 PM
1. Cabinessence
2. Good Vibrations
3. This Whole World
4. Wonderful
5. You Still Believe in Me
6. Aren't You Glad
7. Good to My Baby
8. Slip On Through
9. Wake the World
10. Time to Get Alone
154  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Archives & SMiLE on: July 22, 2018, 07:38:08 AM
Was Mike referencing the Pickle Brothers with his talk of comedy routines?
155  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: If there is a 1968 set, when do you guys and gals think we'll find out?? on: July 03, 2018, 05:21:23 PM
I suppose there’s no chance we’ll get the Desper recorded Manson Cease to Exist demo?  That would be fascinating to hear.  I think there should be plenty of 20/20 material, alternate takes, vocals only, outtakes etc that would make an interesting release.  And There are still some mono mixes unreleased officially from Friends.  More than enough for a 2 cd release- and hopefully Brian’s mono mix of the Child track will finally see the light of day.
156  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The cancelled bonus disc for Made in California on: July 02, 2018, 09:47:17 AM
Yes Mark mentioned it in the Smiley Smile issue of ESQ.  What other treasures were scheduled to be on it, that we may never get?
157  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / The cancelled bonus disc for Made in California on: July 02, 2018, 06:56:45 AM
We know that there was a planned bonus disc for MIC which was to include the Brian mono instrumental mix of Child (the 3 ' version) followed by the instrumental track of Little Bird which would show how Brian recycled the chorus into that track.  Do we know what else was to be included on the bonus disc?  Hopefully both tracks will show up on the Friends copyright 50th anniversary release!
158  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Fire Music - building which burned down on: June 20, 2018, 04:01:31 PM
Brian didn't witness the fire, I presume someone told him about it or he read about it in the newspaper.  Or someone else read about it in the newspaper and told him.  I  think the L.A. Times is still the way to go.  Any other papers publishing at that time covering the L.A. area?
159  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Wave Of Sunshine 9CD Box Set on: June 18, 2018, 05:25:07 PM
What are the concerts included on this?
160  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE Era Message on: June 18, 2018, 11:21:37 AM
There's no doubt that "health food" and vegetables was a recurring theme during the Smile sessions as you so ably document.  But of all the occurrences you mention, which were before this ad was placed?  Vegetables wasn't reworked in the modular style, as would be appropriate for a single following Good Vibrations, until April 67, which was also when Derek Taylor announced Vegetables was to be the new single and Heroes would be delayed.

Cornucopia version:  Oct 17 most likely
Vegetables chants:  Nov 11
Vegetable skits with Hal Blaine:  Nov 16.

If you're right about the timeline for preparing and placing the ad, this ad would most likely have been prepared and submitted in the middle or end of November giving 4 - 6 weeks for photography, preparation of the ad, submission before printing deadlines, etc.  That's right after the Vegetable skits.  Coincidence?  Probably not, right?  Could the vegetables skits have been for a possible radio ad to coincide with the Cashbox one?  Could Brian have been thinking about changing the single to Vegetables in November?  If so, he did no work on the song but instead held two tracking sessions for Heroes and at least four vocal sessions in December in an attempt to finish the song.  Was he thinking about putting the cornucopia Vegetables on the flip side of Heroes?  Or was this Brian's cheeky way of introducing or previewing the health food theme of Smile to the public in advance of the album which he still expected to be finished in January?
161  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE Era Message on: June 18, 2018, 10:25:19 AM
Very interestesting.  Originally Smile was supposed to come out in December, but it became apparent that wasn't going to happen and it was pushed back to January ('It's sure to sell a million units . . . in January!").  So to remind the industry that Smile was coming but not for the holidays I presume was the rationale for this advert - but it's definitely enigmatic/cryptic,  not even mentioning  the album but referencing the song Vegetables (recorded in October in the early version).
162  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: It's about time - The Forgotten Song That Made The Beach Boys Cool Again on: June 13, 2018, 10:50:14 AM
It's About Time was a concert closer for them for a while and it was fantastic - didn't sound forced at all to me.  I think it closed the Central Park concert, didn't it?  The cool think is the Beach boys could do heavier rock when the inspiration struck them and do it well - just as they could also do soul music (Wild Honey album), avant garde pop, roots rock, even country.  Their versatility and the range of musical genres they expolored is what makes them a great band.
163  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Had SMiLE been released, what would Brian have subsequently done? on: June 07, 2018, 06:25:01 AM
Interesting point Joel.  If Smile had been finished and been successful, I think Brian would have taken a break.  There would be no pressure to quickly followup an unsuccessful album with something more commercial (like he did with Wild Honey after Smiley tanked).  In the break Brian could have developed Brother records more, and produced other artists.  Redwood would have released the singles Darlin' and Time to Get Alone, followed by an album.   A Stephen Kalinich poetry album would be released (he was signed to Brother).  Other artists would be produced by Brian, Carl and Mike (the Pickle Brothers) - Ron Wilson, the Honeys/Spring, and probably others.  Lei'd in Hawaii would be released at the end of 67 as a stopgap album, then something akin to Friends would be the next Beach Boys album.  I suspect with the triumph of Smile, most of the songs on Wild Honey would have ended up being used for other artists, a couple would end up on Friends.
164  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The Times article: The Beach Boys — yes, they’re back on: June 06, 2018, 10:13:22 AM
mike's 1992 comments about "I just didn't want anything to do with it" are contradicted by the session tapes of Hang on to Your Ego.  I'm sure it's true he didn't like it and objected to the lyrics at some point, but you wouldn't know it based on the vocal session tapes.  He volunteers to sing Al's parts!
165  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Did Carl's criminal prosecution for draft evasion cause SMiLE's cancelation? on: June 06, 2018, 06:41:00 AM
The idea that the lyrics of Smile if released in spring/summer 1967 would somehow cause trouble for Carl's draft evasion case is interesting but realistically improbable and a little bit ludicrous.  Does anyone think someone at the FBI would attempt to decode the opague VDP lyrics of Worms or Surf's Up in an effort to see if there are anti-government sentiments hidden there?  And if there were, they would be Van Dyke's and Brian's sentiments, not Carl's.  Smile's obscure lyrics could never be construed to be on a par with, say, the later Jefferson Airplane's "Gotta revolution, got to revolution" or other lyrics on Volunteers which were meant to be a middle finger directed at the establishment and very likely did prompt increased scrutiny by law enforcement.
166  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The Times article: The Beach Boys — yes, they’re back on: June 04, 2018, 10:34:50 AM
"Part of this preference for things that are his ideas ends up of course explaining why he was usually kind of begrudging about Brian working with other lyricists (to Mike's credit, he has at least *partially* admitted this)."

But not just because he liked his lyrical ideas because they were his and not someone else's.  He didn't like seeing songwriting royalties going to someone else.

 
167  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The Times article: The Beach Boys — yes, they’re back on: June 04, 2018, 08:10:30 AM
Yes, revisionist no doubt.

Singing a song Brian is producing even if you're not sure of the commercial potential and don't particularly like the lyrics would be the expected route.  What else are you going to sing, what other songs are you going to offer to the record company?  There was no alternative, other than quitting the band.  Plus at this time Brian had altered his usual song lead vocalist choices where Mike was getting less and less leads - and with little else to offer but his singing, Mike had to try and get and keep as many leads on as many songs as he could.  Notice he even offered to sing the entire lead of Hang on to Your Ego by himself (displacing Al), despite eventually objecting to the lyrics and getting them changed. 

Pet Sounds is interesting because although I fully believe there was resistance to the PS music from Mike and possibly other members of the group upon coming back from Japan, and some resentment to Brian's taskmaster duties as he made them redo vocals over and over again to get them to his satisfaction (Mike's "dog ears" comment), they did in fact realize as they worked on the songs how special the music was and did all come on board to support it.

Smile was another kettle of fish.
168  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Royal Philharmonic Orchestra Album Discussion Thread on: June 04, 2018, 08:02:49 AM
I totally miscontrued what this project involved.  I thought they were going to the multitracks and isolating the vocals, then putting the vocals to an orchestral accompaniment based on the original instrumental arrangements.

Instead this is just the same original BB tracks with a few orchestral overdubs that are often difficult to notice or to hear and are completely superfluous.  Crazy!  Why bother?
169  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE: Mark Dillon (Fifty Sides) re-reconstructs track listing on: May 11, 2018, 04:11:55 AM
The original verse/chorus tracking of Child - you are correct, the assembly on UM 16 is the bootlegger's assembly.  It's beautiful regardless.  We have multiple Brian edits of various pieces of the final version with varying degrees of vocal overdubs and then the 3 minute instrumental version.
170  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE: Mark Dillon (Fifty Sides) re-reconstructs track listing on: May 10, 2018, 08:01:59 PM
Thanks BGRT. When the intro to Mrs. O'Leary's Cow first officially appeared, it was on the 1993 boxed set and labeled as an H&V intro. I believe that was a mistake. It sounds to me like it was certainly intended for Fire--to me it evokes cartoon firemen rushing to the scene of a blaze...


The tape box and session documentation doesn't lie - the "intro" was indeed recorded as a Heroes and Villains intro - session was for Heroes and Villains (master # 57045) with the title Part 2 Intro.  This was recorded March 1 and 2, following a February of multiple session for only one song - Heroes, which clearly Brian was trying to finish.  Feb 28 was the rerecord of the fade to Heroes, then on March 1 and 2 the intro to Part 2.  And he recorded an earlier version of the "intro" - the chimes version - in December 66 with the title "Heroes and Villains Part 3."  The reason it is linked to Fire is because after the release of BW 88 there was talk of releasing Smile and Mark Linett put together a tape of Smile recordings, and on that tape he put the intro in front of Fire.  When that tape was booted, it became familiar to all the rabid fans and certainly fit musically there - one such fan being Darian Sahanaja.
171  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE: Mark Dillon (Fifty Sides) re-reconstructs track listing on: May 10, 2018, 07:49:38 PM
A nice discussion.  I agree that end of side one (or beginning of side two) makes the most sense for GV.  On Smiley he put it first on side 2, but as Mark points out previous singles often ended up at the end of side 1.  What is the 4:01 (where do you find it) version of GV?  Is it just the regular single version with the hum de doo dah's spliced in?  Isn't that just a fan mix?

Brian usually started side 2 with a single track, and I don't believe Great Shape is strong enough to start to side two unless you think it's a fragment/intro like Prayer is to side one, and really Vege-tables is the lead off side two cut.

Not sure where you get the train whistle at the end of Worms - that's not on any 66-67 recording of Worms.  The train whistle was part of Heroes Part 1 (cantina) at one point but was cut out for the master in February.  

The whole idea of movements goes back to Priore and LLVS, with an American history/Westward expansion side and an Elements side.  Brian came up with a third movement, innocence/childhood, for BWPS.  But in 66-67 there was no talk of movements, nothing in interviews at the time or in the recollection of the Beach Boys later, and Van Dyke knew nothing about movements back then - which as co-writer you would have to think he and Brian would have discussed.  Instead, I would say there were THEMES - Western imperialism/expansion/Western life, innocence and childhood, and nature (elements, vegetables, water, etc.).  Thinking about them as themes rather than movements gives you the option of not placing the songs with similar themes together - which IMO makes for a better flowing album.  Remember, Brian was having second thoughts about Van Dyke's lyrics starting in December after the Cabinessence Mike Love incident.  And the whole political/Western expansion/imperialism theme came from Van Dyke, not Brian, although he was more than willing to go along with it at first.  So I doubt he would put all of the "heavy" Van Dyke songs with the more obscure lyrics all on the same side - Worms, Cabinessence, Heroes, OMP/Sunshine.

If Smile had come out on time in April/May (after a couple of delays) Cool Cool Water of course had not yet been recorded - I think the first attempt was June.  But I'm OK with including it as I agree it was a rewrite of the Dada theme and fits in with the Elements theme.

Barnyard is too short to be a track, unless you think it would be a link track - which again was a concept not discussed with Van Dyke but certainly possible in the final editing of the album.  I usually put Barnyard after Great Shape, as it was originally ordered in Heroes and Villains (the demo version with Humble Harv Miller in attendance) which makes it more of a song and less of a fragment.  Since Worms already has a fade, having Barnyard as a short fragment with another fade after it doesn't sound right to me.

The reprise of Prayer - this is something Brian talked about in 66-67 as recounted by Mike Vosse in the Fusion article, but to follow Surf's Up, which Vosse also said was going to be the closing track.  You're Welcome could serve as a similar reprise - "come and join the young and often spring you gave" - then "you're welcome to join us" makes sense.

Child - not sure why there is controversy about this being it's own track, other than Brian castrated the song for BWPS and the live suite.  There's a 3 minute instrumental track edited by Brian in the vaults that has yet to see release but has been booted.  The original version (a different verse and chorus track) is remarkable in it's own way, I actually prefer it to the re-recorded version (it's on Sea of Tunes Unsurpassed Masters Vol 16) but it is much shorter and has no middle 8.  While the Child lyrics/melody fits perfectly over the ending of Surf's Up, and Brian may have intended that way, there is reason to doubt it - the piano demo that became the second part of Surf's Up on the album of the same name has only wordless singing at the end, and not in the melody of Child.  If he intended that in Dec 66 when he recorded the demo, wouldn't he have added that to the demo (for which he double tracked his vocal)?  It may have very well been Carl's idea to use the Child chorus over the closing of Surf's Up, and when Brian heard it he became very excited and rushed downstairs to work with Jack Reilly on the lyrics to go over the tag.


172  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Pet Sounds: Billboard 1966... A Broader Picture on: April 25, 2018, 11:20:20 AM
Wow, that's some incredible music in the top 20 - Sunshine Superman, Summer in the City, Good Guys Don't Wear White, Eleanor Rigby, You Can't Hurry Love, Sunny Afternoon, 7 and 7 Is (you can tell this is an LA station right there), Land of 1000 Dances, What Becomes of the Brokenhearted, and Over Under Sideways Down!  And God only Knows on it's way up?
173  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: \ on: April 16, 2018, 03:21:51 PM
Inside the studio, Brian was confident and sefl-assured, but not so much outside that environment. I think Paul Dano portrayed that very well. Mark me down as another one who prefers the 1960s part of this film to the Cusack sections. I think Cusack did well with the general portrayal, but I wish they would have done a little work to make him look like Brian. That was my only complaint. Atticus Ross did wonderful job creating a soundscape to portray Brian's mind.  

Well I disagree, so there!  Brian was not unsure with the Vosse Posse, Van Dyke, journalists he trusted, or his other friends.  He didn't always take to strangers or new people right away but more often than not he would invite them into the house and get them on his "trip."  Brian has always had fears and insecurities mainly regarding women and some paranoia about his father and Spector but not about his music.  Now at some point with Smile he decided the music wasn't commercial and put it aside, but that scenario still doesn't gibe with Dano's portrayal.  Where are the speed induced, rapid fire all night sessions where Brian is coming up with ideas for new forms of radio, humor albums and sound effects albums, producing other artists, music films, his own record company, stores that stay open all night - this is the confident firing on all cylinders Brian that is not represented in the film, and is how he was MOST of the time!
174  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: \ on: April 16, 2018, 07:28:57 AM
The only rock biopic anyone needs to see is Walk Hard.

Walk Hard is one of the best comedies of the millennium IMO.   

As for music biopics, I'm not sure if I have a favorite.   Love and Mercy was very good.   For all of it's flaws, I think Oliver Stone's The Doors is also very good. 

The Walk Hard psychedelic sequences are actually a better representation of Brian and the Smile period than Love & Mercy!!

where was the tone off?  Brian came off as way more insecure and unsure of himself than he was, as demonstrated by the session tapes.  I only saw it once but Dano's hesitant unsure and halting performance did not represent the "confident" Brian which he was most of the time during PS and even Smile, until the very end. I remember one scene where he is outside the studio looking bewildered and downbeat and one of the Wrecking Crew (Hal)? tells him how what he's doing is great and somehow that suddenly validates everything for him.  Corny and not accurate.
175  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: \ on: April 15, 2018, 11:48:34 AM
I am not a fan of this movie - the Cusack parts are well done but the 60s parts are written poorly, acted poorly, and are filled with errors of fact and tone.  I kept thinking how corny and overwrought most of the scenes were.

I don't mind that most people like it and I'm glad it brought Brian's story to many new people unfamiliar with it, but one viewing was more than enough for me.
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