I don't know if mental illness afflicts Phil Spector, but his certainly afflicts those around him.

You know, on a purely human level (not related to the music), it's a shame that Spector apparently hasn't had sufficient treatment for whatever is wrong with him. I mean, it isn't as if everyone hasn't known horrible stories about his behavior for years and years--long before he allegedly killed someone. He obviously was not well and needed some kind of help.

I agree that, among certain music fans, Spector is overrated. But he did create a new sound, and there's always something to be said for that. Overrated or not, though, he did good stuff. And all the rest is stuff for the gossip pages.

This album (a double-album) came out on Tuesday.

I really recommend it.

I don't think Phil Spector saying something stupid diminishes his contributions to music. He created some great, great records, and whether he went shithouse nuts, played around with guns too much, was abusive to women, killed someone and trashed BW's talent doesn't affect those records. More evidence that he's not OK in the head, and that's about it.

In a way, I think it's too bad we focus on the personal lives of celebrities as much as we do. If Phil Spector killed someone (oh, and badmouthed BW), he ought to be in jail...but Be My Baby is great. If Michael Jackson is a pedophile, he ought to be in jail...but Thriller is great. (and so on) I'm very guilty of this phenomenon, too. A while back I started a thread about taking extraordinary interest in the Beach Boys' personal lives and stories, and letting it influence appreciation of the music.

While I've been known to make my "should've been" albums, I disagree on that one. No Roller Skatin Child? Blasphemy! And the inclusion of Belles of Paris and Everyone's... mean you are not allowed to touch my CD player remote control. Sorry. Hands off.

I've always personally felt that Usher wasn't exactly how he was portrayed in the book, and had his own agenda too.
Or maybe that's just me...

I think that is very safe to say as being true. NOBODY can tell any story without framing it in his or her particular way. Sometimes it is obvious, sometimes subtle; sometimes intentional, sometimes unintentional. But no one source can offer objective reality on anything. That's one of the interesting and frustrating things about the Beach Boys, in my opinion. You've just got so many people, the real truth is very mysterious and hidden. Sadly, in a lot of cases, several key sources are dead, and others aren't in a position to give very lucid accounts of things.

It has probably become time to move this convo to the Sandbox.

Welcome, and good luck with that composition degree. I was a theory/composition major myself, before deciding to do something a little more practical after a couple of years in it.

Political correctness bothers me, too. I consider it a backhanded style of censorship. But to criticize the content of someone's speech is not to seek to limit it. As I said, McCain has every right to make his joke. I have every right to think it's stupid.

OK, I'll start...

My point in the original post was simply this: whether a war were to end up warranted--and I am not convinced one is or will be warranted by any stretch of the imagination, but even if it were to eventually be 100% warranted--I just don't think a war is anything to joke about. Everyone has a right to say whatever s/he wants to. But to me, it's bad taste to joke about war, it being the most horrific human experience there is, in my opinion. I'm sure many Americans would be horrified if the Iranian government started telling knock-knock jokes about 9/11, after all. War is war, people are people, and those who cause and lead wars unfortunately are nowhere near the only ones affected. That was my point in that thread.

There was a McCan/Iran discussion in the General-On Topic forum. As it was going to get more political (and already had, obviously), I thought we could talk about it here. Obviously we'll have a lot of disagreement, but let's try to remain civil to one another here.

So...let's talk about Iran, presumably from a Western perspective, as most visitors here tend to be American or Western European. (Any other input from other parts of the world is welcome, of course, too.)

It has probably become time to move this convo to the Sandbox.

I bet there was enough material to make a double record album. If you included Talking Horns, You're Welcome, He Gives Speaches, etc

Speaking of which, I wonder why these weren't included on BWPS.  I have always read that Youre Welcome was meant to be at the end of Smile.

One of the various interviews Darian gave said it was as simple as him [Darian] bringing a bunch of Smile-era material around and Brian just saying no, those wouldn't be a part of it. No discussion, etc., just "yep, yep, yep, no." I think he referenced the latter two specifically, but I might be a little bit off. (Trying to recall the specific interview...if I find the quote I'll post it.)

Foskett's version is not great, and Brian sounds phoned-in.

I agree with that--I think it's one of Brian's worst released vocals, reminiscent of some of his worst moments on GIOMH.

to follow up, i was wondering if This Isn't Love was also in the same collaboration date? at least the lyrics, because i was sure the piano tune was written earlier

The piano tune was early 80s, I believe. (Cocaine/Hamburger sessions recordings, I think, although I could be wrong on that specific.)

There is nothing on BWPS that didn't appear in some form on the original sessions, although several things were fleshed out (i.e. lyrics making Song for Children, Blue Hawaii, Roll Plymouth Rock, etc.). Most of it comes down to what would have been placed where and called what, imo.

Check the below myspace for a new recording of a song I wrote last month, "Longer." It's a slow, kind of sad, acoustic guitar-based song. I'd love to know what you think.

Overrated: Til I Die. Sorry [actually not sorry], but I've just never really, REALLY loved it the way many do. I like it, but I don't think it's anywhere among Brian Wilson's best.

Underrated: This Whole World (beloved, but not beloved enough!), Al's Sunflower-era and Surf's Up-era songs, Wake the World, Be Here in the Morning, When a Man Needs a Woman, and (by the general public) Time to Get Alone.

Perhaps part of people's opinion of Pet Sounds as being overrated comes from what long-time and knowledgeable fans most people here are. While I don't find the album to be overrated--especially among non-fanatics, many of whom STILL don't know the album--I do tend to take it for granted, sometimes for months at a time. By this, I mean when thinking of favorite songs/albums, I'll look to those I haven't so completely absorbed, and maybe OVER-rate others in its place. Then, somewhere down the line, I'll put it back in and just go...OH YEAH. THIS is why it's so great...

Maybe that has something to do with it. I don't know if I've recalled reading anyone say it is overrated along these lines: "You know, Pet Sounds just isn't very good..."

Luther, being a non-musician, I can't comment on the musical terms you referred to, though I actually think I know what you mean by them!

So, as a BB fan/listener I will simply say that "Our Sweet Love" sounds like a re-write of "God Only Knows".

Fair enough, officer. Sorry, sir. (That policeman's cap freaked me out.)

Interesting, but not the era I'm curious about. I have to think Brian was different to work with in distinctly different periods of his life with different people.

My definition of "recycled" would probably be a song that is more directly derivative of, maybe even quoting, other songs. I agree that Our Sweet Love sounds like a Brian Wilson song, but there are dozens of BW songs where you could say that: be they for quarter note block chords on keyboards, descending bass lines, reverb-drenched auxiliary percussion or whatever other feature.

I dont disagree with you BUT generally I find most rap (esepcially mainstream) to be pretty unbearable (for me anyway). I like some rap too like Run DMC etc.. but artists like Eminem and 50 Cent etc.. they just dont do anything for me.

I've got to say, I find most mainstream ANYTHING pretty awful. I can't think of more than 15 or 20 major-label new releases I've bought since the late '90s, and I have probably bought well over 750 albums in that time.

Just because it's not on a major label doesn't mean it's not mainstream. Of Montreal is pretty mainstream, if you ask me. They're on the same label as Puffy AmiYumi, who I would definitely consider mainstream.

I would say O.M. is quite mainstream as far as indies go, that's true. They're certainly enjoying great success (relatively speaking), and I'm glad of it. But there is a world of difference between an Of Montreal (or even the Shins, for that matter) and someone who gets real major-label backing. Justin Timberlake, Avril Lavigne, Nelly Furtado. It isn't even close.

And I can say I wish bands like Of Montreal WERE major label. I wish more majors did offer big deals to more good bands...but they don't, sadly.

Without getting into the particulars or politics of this situation, I don't think wars in general are a good thing to joke about. Many innocent people die. Sen. McCain should show better judgment.

Eric actually the California Saga does come at the end of side one.

You might want to double-check Eric's post--he said maybe California Saga would have been better at the end of side two.