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652188 Posts in 26060 Topics by 3717 Members - Latest Member: My1stBonerWasCamDiaz November 18, 2019, 11:12:09 AM
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1  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Ray Pohlman's 57 Fender Bass on: November 03, 2019, 05:48:46 AM
Forgot my password, apparently logged in with an another account I didn't know I had? Oh well.
2  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Ray Pohlman's 57 Fender Bass on: October 31, 2019, 12:09:01 PM
I've managed to get an almost identical tone on a 4-string when my strings were just really dead, muted as much as possible without much low end and playing pretty forcefully with a thin pick near the neck. Wasn't a Fender but... I think it's doable. Love to Say Dada (Part 2) is another one sounding like a classic Ray clicky lead melody (or at least I think it's him rather than Bill Pitman on 6-string) that suddenly turns into an almost Dano-ish 'honk' in the breakdown when he hits a lower note.

To add to the Ray appreciation list: Vegetables fade! That one's wild, feels more like it's functioning as percussion than anything else.
3  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Revisiting the Sloop John Billy Strange guitar gift story on: October 23, 2019, 11:52:06 AM
Wow, nice find! No idea what to make of the story now but... nice!

The first overdub is pretty much just a double to thicken the sound isn't it? It's right out there in the first couple of attempts before Brian ducked it back in the mix. Since it was superimposed directly to the mono instrumental during the dubdown to the new 4-track, I guess that means it's missing in the stereo mix?

Edit: Yeah, not in the stereo mix. It's some subtle extra jangle on top of the original parts.
4  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Revisiting the Sloop John Billy Strange guitar gift story on: October 23, 2019, 11:06:18 AM
Where do the alternate vocals fit into this? The ones with Carl on the first verse, Brian and Carl harmonising on the first chorus, then Mike on the second verse before stopping. Those seem to have been added on a separate tape before either of the guitar overdubs were recorded.

Yeah...the common assumption is that those were recorded shortly after the July tracking session, before work on the song was temporarily abandoned.

Ah, that makes sense. So those would probably be on 3-track rather than 4 around the same time as Brian's guide vocals?
5  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Revisiting the Sloop John Billy Strange guitar gift story on: October 23, 2019, 10:44:50 AM
Where do the alternate vocals fit into this? The ones with Carl on the first verse, Brian and Carl harmonising on the first chorus, then Mike on the second verse before stopping. Those seem to have been added on a separate tape before either of the guitar overdubs were recorded.
6  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: I want to start a \ on: October 21, 2019, 05:39:48 AM
Inject these videos directly into my veins
7  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Prelude to fade with my children vocals on: October 19, 2019, 01:39:19 AM
It's "Sonny, down snuff", as in addressing a much younger person. This is per BWPS. Just wanted to throw that in there. Feel free to throw it back out.  Interesting bit of editing with this combination, Mike.
And snuffing out a Sonny cigar. He liked his double entendres, that Van Dyke.
8  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 18, 2019, 02:10:17 PM

The booklet uses an ingenious (if I do say so myself) color-coding method, whereby all the recording info (take numbers, dates, locations, engineer names) are in green, while vocals & singer credits are blue, instrumentation & musician credits are purple, and titles are sepia. Recording credits pertaining to several pieces recorded on the same date are listed after ALL pieces recorded that day. Sorry for any confusion!


It's a good system, my bad!

By the way, is there info definitively suggesting all of the Jan 27 parts were tracked on that day? I'm wondering if there's any chance they could've actually been staggered accross that date and the subsequent mystery sessions, or at least maybe CWR/Whistle Bridge one session and Cantina/All Day another.

Anything's possible. Those parts are all on a reel dated 1/27. The only other documentation for that reel is the AFM sheet dated 2/27 indicating Tommy Tedesco's mandolin parts on the "Cantina" section were overdubbed that day, and Capitol Session worksheets indicating vocals were added that day (meaning, 2/27).

What order do the sections appear in on the reel? The boxset breaks Cantina up into two tracks separated by others, wasn't sure if that's related to the way the pieces were found or a modern sequencing decision.
9  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Prelude to fade with my children vocals on: October 17, 2019, 01:56:49 PM
'main verse' 'children' and 'prelude' all start on Db - 'prelude' changes to Eb7 earlier than the main verse but goes round the same chords with a slight variation..?

wjcrerar did you listen to my mp3..?  'my children' fits right over 'prelude'


The lead vocal fits, but so would any lead vocal with the verse melody. You could sing "I been in this town so long that back in the city" or "once at night cotillion squared the fight" or "my children were raised, you know they suddenly rise" or "I been in this town so long, so long to the city" there and it wouldn't make a difference, but CWR as a section consistently had its own variation of the music and slate throughout the sessions. If Brian wanted to identify 'Prelude to Fade' as 'Children Were Raised' he would've.
10  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Prelude to fade with my children vocals on: October 17, 2019, 10:36:56 AM
It's a substitution for the first half of a verse's Db to Eb stretch, so the melody for any first half of a verse could realistically go there - except Children Were Raised, which consistently has its own musical identity with the Gb to Db riff + ascending/descending bassline over two (or allegedly three) versions. Plus, there's no precedent for those lyrics being used as the final verse of the song, which Prelude to Fade's title clearly designates it as.

"So long to the city" etc. would absolutely fit with some changes to the phrasing. It's just a reharmonized first half of a verse with "by the heroes and" tagged on the end.
11  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 17, 2019, 06:03:49 AM

The booklet uses an ingenious (if I do say so myself) color-coding method, whereby all the recording info (take numbers, dates, locations, engineer names) are in green, while vocals & singer credits are blue, instrumentation & musician credits are purple, and titles are sepia. Recording credits pertaining to several pieces recorded on the same date are listed after ALL pieces recorded that day. Sorry for any confusion!


It's a good system, my bad!

By the way, is there info definitively suggesting all of the Jan 27 parts were tracked on that day? I'm wondering if there's any chance they could've actually been staggered accross that date and the subsequent mystery sessions, or at least maybe CWR/Whistle Bridge one session and Cantina/All Day another.
12  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 14, 2019, 07:35:33 AM
Oh well how do you know that info is wrong - and that there were no vocals..?  Not arguing either way just curious how you know.


Are you hearing any vocals...?
13  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 14, 2019, 07:13:32 AM
All Day 'track and vocals recorded at Columbia'... etc - booklet track17 CD 2 notes

I didn't know it was demoed in December..?

Presumably it was a pastoral type section..?

There were no vocals so that's a typo.

The two 'Da Da' fragments were on the same 8-track reel as the DYLW vocals, presumably from the same Dec 21 session.
14  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 14, 2019, 06:52:33 AM
I'm a bit puzzled on All Day, the TSS book lists the master take as 20 of 28 which doesn't seem to be represented anywhere on the set or on bootlegs. There's a solid version of the main two-part riff on take 16, then a rough version of that elongated other section on take 26 with a few mistakes (which then leads back into the main riff), plus there are some booted early takes where the main riff leads into a choppy run of yet another different section that ends with Brian playing Pickup to 3rd Verse. The little Da Da riff is only 15ish seconds but combined with anything else it's up to 40-50, or longer if the minor key part was to go back into it. Unless there really is a clean master that hasn't been released for some reason it sounds to me like Brian was just testing ideas in the studio.

Maybe this was referring to All Day?

"I may end up just recording me and a piano - I tried it last night in the studio. It would be an interesting contrast, anyway."


Something I'm curious about is what they were working on at the Jan 31 and Feb 3 sessions. Feb 7 was likely Cantina vocals, and Tommy Tedesco's mandolins were definitely added on that date. The other two are a mystery beyond the missing Jan 31 mix with the super unhelpful tape box notes:

Quote
HEROS AND VILLAINS - 1ST PART

1 - 1st version of PT-1
2 - 2nd version of PT-1 with more echo
3 - 1st version of PT-2

4 Bridge to 3rd verses [or versions] (start with “My Children”)
5 Bridge To PT Two (whistle Part)

[note - EDITED, indicating all above parts]

6 - 3rd verses
7 BRIDGE [Last item crossed out]

NOTE:
THIS REEL HAS HAD ALL OF THE ABOVE REMOVED TO AN UNKNOWN REEL 12/31/85 J. PETERS


'Verse Edit Experiment' was dated Jan 27, meanwhile no known dates for the three "mono mix attempts" on Unsurpassed Masters. Could those mixes be from the missing dates? Additional work on CWR and Whistling Bridge? Why was the session on Feb 3 only one hour long! What's happening!!
15  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 14, 2019, 04:51:24 AM
Brian mentions the the idea of 'lots of talking' in the All Day breaks but there wasn't a vocal session. Considering the length and multiple sections I don't think it was intended to be part of Heroes, more like Brian demoing a new song that potentially could land on the B-side. The only thing placing it as a Heroes section seems to be it being tracked on the same date as Cantina.

Part 3 from December is oddly in the key of E so... unless there would've been some varispeeding going on I have no idea where Brian was gonna put it. The March intro is in F, which isn't a natural fit either, although Brian directs Van Dyke to play the organ so it sounds like "frequency changes" rather than obvious chord changes so maybe that was the point.

The Feb 27, Feb 28, March 1 and March 2 sessions were all logged as 'Heroes and Villians Part II' on documents, but there don't appear to be any Part 2 slates on the tapes themselves or labels on the tape boxes. Closest any of them come is the 'Side Two' written on the box for the chorus track. It's weird.
16  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 10, 2019, 08:56:36 AM
Quote
A quick postscript/sidestep: The "Chuck Britz edit" (sorry, I can't stop calling it that for easy reference) does *not* have the train effect "woo woo woo" vocals before "you're under arrest", yet as we've heard other more modern finds and mixes have that right before the arrest line. This means the woo-woo was either edited out or edited in at some point. Since my brain hurts a bit...which was it? And when was that edit done, since there was obviously an edit?

I'll add some proper thoughts on the rest later but just to clarify, the train bit was there originally and spliced out. "You're under arrest" was a punch-in on the 8-track after the woo-woo, but in dubbing down the mono mix Brian must've thought it broke up the pacing too much and cut it down.

Is there a rough date when or where this would have been done?

Just whenever it was mixed, it would've been a splice on the 1/4" tape.

Also -

Quote
Cantina may have been a trial final sequence but it was rejected almost immediately.

I can see Brian changing his mind about it pretty quickly and recording Prelude and Piano Ditty as a result, but I'm convinced that at the time it was done (even if that period was brief) it was considered a final A-side. It lines up with 2 or 3 press accounts that Brian was finishing the single that week and it'd be odd for them to make a safety copy of a test edit.
17  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 10, 2019, 08:44:39 AM
Quote
A quick postscript/sidestep: The "Chuck Britz edit" (sorry, I can't stop calling it that for easy reference) does *not* have the train effect "woo woo woo" vocals before "you're under arrest", yet as we've heard other more modern finds and mixes have that right before the arrest line. This means the woo-woo was either edited out or edited in at some point. Since my brain hurts a bit...which was it? And when was that edit done, since there was obviously an edit?

I'll add some proper thoughts on the rest later but just to clarify, the train bit was there originally and spliced out. "You're under arrest" was a punch-in on the 8-track after the woo-woo, but in dubbing down the mono mix Brian must've thought it broke up the pacing too much and cut it down.
18  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 09, 2019, 05:30:22 PM
There are notes on Smile tape boxes from the late 70s and 80s too, really there's no way of telling when it could've been added without some meticulous handwriting study. I've only seen a few but contemporary notations can usually be identified by the tracksheet/other miscellaneous details (if they're on there).
19  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 09, 2019, 11:17:13 AM
The "Heroes bridge with spooky low strings and percussion" notation was almost certainly added much later when the tapes were being archived, as was pretty much anything with a description rather than a title. There's a similar case for the Vegetables fade probably from the same period where "Vegetables (Fade)" in the same hand as the tracksheet info is followed by completely different handwriting that reads "string quarter notes (like Heroes bridge & middle part of Wonder)". As for the "side two" note, could be original - you'd have to do some handwriting studying.
20  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 09, 2019, 05:31:43 AM
Just so we're on the same page: It seems like you're pinning most if not all of your opinion that the "Cantina" mix was not done by Chuck Britz on the information written on a tape box. In doing that, did you consider the accounts of how unorganized, sometimes inaccurate (as in tapes being in the wrong box, mislabeled boxes with box notations not matching what was on the reels, boxes with no tape in them at all, etc.) , and often confusing those tape boxes and their notations were with the Smile material on all those reels?

If you're saying the date on the tape box of Feb 10 '67 excludes Chuck Britz from the scenario, would you also consider a 3-minute single mixdown could have been prepared with the same material sometime after Feb 10th at Western, or even another time during that week of Feb 6 when those sessions were held? All of those elements you cited were tracked Feb 7th...The Beach Boys did not have to be present for a mix session after everything on the single mix had been recorded, and most often the group was not present at mix sessions, even according to interviews I have seen with Chuck Britz. It was Chuck and Brian the majority of the time.

As has been offered many times here and elsewhere, the notations on tape boxes and even written on session sheets is not always airtight and 100% accurate, and definitely not infallible.

If you have questions about previous interviews with Chuck Britz, consider dropping a line to Domenic Priore and asking him, since he was one who interviewed Chuck to get some of this info on the Heroes single mixes. Go right to the source via email or Facebook.

I get the point about the reliability of tape box notes and session sheets, but in this case the date of the mix written on the tape box lines up neatly with the information we have about the session on that same day. There's no contradictory evidence or justification to be sceptical about it beyond... a long-standing assumption that it was "the Chuck Britz edit", which doesn't seem to be directly substantiated anywhere, even in what Priore says about the matter. On Feb 7, the group were at Columbia for vocals before flying out to Miami, and towards the end of this 6pm-11.30pm session (specifically 10pm-10.45pm) Tommy Tedesco was called in to add two mandolin overdubs to Cantina. Presumably before they went home a mono mix of the Cantina section was dubbed down, with the mandolins in place, but missing Brian's opening line lead vocal replacement for Mike, the laughter, and "you're under arrest". Now unless all of these additional parts (conspicuously not involving any Beach Boys other than Brian) were added in the less than 45 remaining minutes of the Feb 7 session after Tedesco left and after a mix was created, that means they were added at a later date while the others were away. Considering the documented session dates we have prior to the others returning from tour and sections like Prelude being recorded, anecdotes in the press about Brian doing the mixing alone while the group are away, and the date on the safety copy mix itself, the only session date here that computes is Feb 10 at Columbia. Unless we're looking at an undocumented session at Western in the intervening days after Feb 10 but... as far as I can see there just isn't a good reason to suspect that.

Here's what Chuck had to say in Leaf's book:

"It was done like 'Good Vibrations'; it was just one hell of a song. It was a great song. Then I understand, they went up to his home [studio], and they did a lot of things. They cut it and inserted an organ down at the bottom of the [swimming] pool to get the pool quality [all the water was out]. They did all kinds of things, but I think basically it could have been as good a classic as 'Good Vibrations' or better. . . . Our [version] ran about five or six minutes . . . it was just a further step from 'Good Vibrations.' It had some great melodic lines . . . the arrangement was so full, and it was just'something that I was very disappointed in when I heard the final product."

There's nothing here about mixing/editing the 3 minute version that survives. I am gonna drop Dom an email because I'm genuinely curious about it, but based on everything I've read from Chuck or about things Chuck allegedly said, there's no citation to actually tie him to the mixing of this specific version of H&V. Maybe the use of 'our' in that quote lead to it.
21  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 08, 2019, 12:59:09 PM
The early chorus I was referring to is the Piano Ditty, which is identical musical material to the final chorus but in the key of Abm rather than Ebm, still under the 57020 master. IMO it's practically a certainty that it was meant to have vocals at the time. Likewise Prelude - a verse variation missing a lead melody - for which Brian says as much on the session tape. The Feb 20 chants onward are when I think the real B-side contender material begins.

The date of Tracy Thomas' interview with Brian hasn't been confirmed. It could be Feb 10, but it could also very possibly be Jan 31 when another lost mix was created. We just don't know for certain.

As for Chuck, the 'Cantina' mix is dated Feb 10 on the box, the same evening Brian held a session at Columbia. The mix being from that date is substantiated by vocal elements that couldn't have existed until then - namely the Sunshine fade harmonies, Brian's partial replacement to Mike's lead on Cantina, the laughter, and Gene Gaddy's "you're under arrest". A rough mix of the Cantina section created Feb 7 at the earliest (due to the mandolin overdubs being present, added at the very end of said Feb 7 session) is missing all of those parts. Group then flew to Miami, the next H&V session was Feb 10. Bottom line: Chuck didn't mix it at Western. (Unless it was actually done during the Feb 9 Jasper Dailey session...but that doesn't seem likely.)

If anyone can dig up the original Chuck quotes I'd be grateful, I've seen them referenced dozens of times but never with a source. They seem to trace back to information Priore claims to have been given for LLVS but... there isn't any reference to an interview with Chuck Britz in LLVS.
22  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 08, 2019, 10:03:18 AM
If I remember rightly Van Dyke said something along the lines of them having written the entire song the first night they worked together, all 'except one section' or something which I guessed was either Great Shape or Barnyard.

Don't wanna go down the route of "what could've been done in December that we're just missing", but from February Prelude to Fade seems like a very plausible candidate for a 'so long to the city' backing track to me. It's a variation on the verse music with altered chords (like Children Were Raised and Barbershop), Brian calls for a slower tempo "for vocal reasons", the strings are echoing the verse backing vocal melodies but not the lead melody, and the title is self explanatory for its position in the song.
23  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 08, 2019, 09:35:37 AM
Do you have the direct quotes from Chuck? I've never seen them actually substantiated beyond recollections from Priore about an interview for LLVS that isn't in LLVS, at least it wasn't when I tried to find it. Regardless of whether or not Chuck did mix a version of H&V (which was definitely possible thanks to Brian's 8-track machine), it wasn't the Feb 10 mix. That one was categorically done at CBS.

Should also note that the press reports from the time are pretty consistent on it running 4-5 minutes (or 6 minutes going off of Vosse and the interview at Mike's house in June). Again without speculating too hard, I think it's possible that later mixes could've been made and then lost that have escaped documentation. There's a tape box for a missing Jan 31 mix but I'm not sure there's actually anything for the Feb 10 version beyond that miracle safety copy.
24  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 08, 2019, 09:20:33 AM
RE: The Feb 10 'Cantina' mix, Chuck Britz wasn't involved in the editing/mixing. I'm sure he would've done some editing tracks like Good Vibrations and Do You Like Worms where the songs were assembled before vocals were dubbed to a complete mono track, but H&V wasn't constructed that way and any mixing at that stage would've been done at Columbia. The Feb 10 mix in particular is definitely a Columbia edit, engineer unconfirmed, but a note from Marilyn about the Cantina laughter (added while the group were in Miami) suggests it was Ralph Valentin.

I can believe that it was considered a finished A-side at the time it was mixed, but Brian obviously went back on that call a few days later when he added Prelude to Fade and the first version of the chorus in Abm. Key here is the missing lyrics - Van Dyke has confirmed that all of the verses were written on the same night. I don't normally like speculating on things like this but it's probably a safe assumption that 'stand or fall' and 'so long to the city' factored into an earlier version before they were put down on tape in June, whether that was December or February, or whether or not they were actually recorded at the time.
25  Smiley Smile Stuff / Ask The Honored Guests / Re: The Stephen Desper Thread on: October 06, 2019, 11:14:57 AM
I found an old post (among some others) where you wrote about the process a few years back, and I have some others saved if you'd like them re-posted too for posterity. In this did you mean you were using the machine from UCLA rather than the Eltro?

Quote
I started recording --before-- the Sunflower CCW was recorded, but --after-- Brian had conceived of CCW. The creation of 2 1/2 octaves of drips by way of the ELTRON machine and subsequent transfer to the small CHAMBERLIN were in progress during the month or two it took to record CCW by the group. There were 30 different types of drips and blubbs recorded, each with 26 notes. That is a lot of work!! When we had our first production meeting concerning "Cool, Cool Water" I suggested the use of real water sounds recorded using an ELTRO machine (Eventide Harmonizer was not invented yet) to first shift the pitch making 2 1/2 octave half-note steps and to transfer all the notes to a small Chamberlin machine.

Management said to "go for it" and so I took off to northern California with my portable NAGRA profession tape recorder and a good microphone to capture running water sounds in the wild. Later I also recorded air making blubb-type sounds as blown air came up through flower mixed with water in large buckets. This too was put into 2 1/2 octave steps. It was not until this entire project was finished that Brian even became aware of what I was doing. The small Chamberlin, I modified so that I could use each of its internal playback heads for recording or re-recording each of the tape-threads in the instrument without needing to remove them from the unit. I assembled a variety of water sounds and bubble sounds tuned in one-half note steps for a 2_ octave spread - to be used for "Cool, Cool Water" - and installed or recorded them one by one into the smaller Chamberlin.

I was wondering more about whether or not the borrowed machine was used for the similar pitch-shifting effect on the vocals in She's Goin' Bald around the same time as work on the Cool Cool Water keyboard project (if both did use the same machine), because that could maybe narrow down the timeline a bit. It's really fascinating tracking this song's evolution through all the different permutations.

Also, so cool that you still have all the original water sounds! I (and I'm sure many others) would love to hear them if it's something you'd feel comfortable sharing in the future.

COMMENT to wjcrerar:   Thanks for digging that clip up.  I think when I wrote that I was trying to simplify everything without a lot of detail, thinking the reader could find the rate changing technology by looking up the ELTRO machine.  But the fact of the matter is that the machine I used was a monster of a thing, taking two people to move it, and it was noisy. I wish the ELTRO had been around, it would have simplified everything. I became aware of the UCLA rate changing machine from my friend Steve Temmer, at that time the owner of Gotham Audio Corporation, the sole importer of Neumann microphones, etc. into the USA. in late 1966 he was just beginning to import the ELTRO from its German manufacturer, but only had a couple of machines in NYC, but knew of a prototype used for teaching purposes at UCLA and occasionally rented to studios. At that time it was used when a commercial was slightly too long for its intended slot. In some ways the machine I used was the forerunner of what eventually became the ELTRO machine since the original patents date back to 1920. As with many inventions, the idea was there. but had to wait on technology to realize a practical device. I became fascinated with the idea of changing pitch without a change in duration and visa versa. I wanted to know how this was accomplished, so arranged a visit to UCLA for a demo. It was the ability to change pitch without changing duration that I was interested in. The ELTRO is a forsetter design, that is, it sets in front of a tape recorder. The machine I rented had an internal tape recorder. When the Cool Cool Water project came about, I rented the machine for ten days to transform all the water sounds from one event to twenty-six events, each a half-note apart. In this way a polyphonic chord could be played with each note of the chord starting and stopping at the same time. The machine was placed in Brian's living room, which would later become the house studio. At that time, recording of SmileySmile was underway and when I showed Brian what the machine did, he figured a place to use it in GB. I demonstrated it to Jimmy Lockart, the engineer for that album and the rest you hear. That would be around late 1966 or early 1967. Hope that helps.
~swd

References:

ELTRO II background >>> http://www.wendycarlos.com/other/Eltro-1967/Eltro-1967.pdf
 
ELTRO II history by Windy Carlos >>> http://www.wendycarlos.com/other/Eltro-1967/

First Imported 1966 >>> https://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Catalogs/Miscellaneous-Manufacturers/Gotham-Audio-1966.CV01.pdf



Brilliant, thank you so much for the info! That's exactly what I wanted to find out and more, I'll have to do some reading up on the links you attached. In that case I believe it can be pinpointed to sometime in June/July 1967 going off of the She's Goin' Bald association Smiley  

The earliest version of Cool Cool Water (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fmPrlVwXlA) comes from a session at Western about a week before the first known recordings in Brian's house, which suddenly makes a whole lot of sense next to what you're describing. I've always wondered if it was seriously being considered for the Smiley Smile album or which stage of the song's evolution was closest to the water-Chamberlin project!
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