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641028 Posts in 25598 Topics by 3641 Members - Latest Member: MilkyWay December 13, 2018, 05:40:21 AM
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1  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Caribou Ranch (1975) fanmix on: October 22, 2018, 03:36:25 PM
Yeah, I think we just established that there is a guy who exists called Floyd Tucker in LA around the right age to have probably written it. Also, Sweet and Bitter is just copyrighted to Don Goldberg, and likewise Out in the Country is copyrighted to Brian Wilson and Don Goldberg. Mike and Al weren't writers on those songs.

"Out in the Country" is credited to Brian and Goldberg? I thought Brian had nothing to do with that one. When was it recorded anyways?

According to the copyright (https://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=8&ti=1,8&Search_Arg=goldberg%20don&Search_Code=NALL&CNT=25&PID=upy2Y_rrj2eSR6HXpyaZzNwpym5&SEQ=20181022182806&SID=1) it's words and music by Don Goldberg and Brian Wilson. The fast country-ish version with Don singing lead was apparently recorded during the CATP sessions over two dates in Feb '72, but the descriptions I've read of the musicians at those sessions probably mean the Al lead organ version is from a totally different time. I remember some bootleg liner notes that said it's from the Holland sessions in Baambrugge but I dunno how much credibility there is to that. Also, in the boot you can hear Brian doing the count off (guessing he's on organ), Al was asked at one point and said he doesn't really remember it but thinks it's probably something Brian wrote, and Brian's prominently singing on the tag (along with Carl and Mike). The fade vocals sound very Radio King Dom to me too.
2  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Caribou Ranch (1975) fanmix on: October 18, 2018, 08:18:38 AM
Yeah, I think we just established that there is a guy who exists called Floyd Tucker in LA around the right age to have probably written it. Also, Sweet and Bitter is just copyrighted to Don Goldberg, and likewise Out in the Country is copyrighted to Brian Wilson and Don Goldberg. Mike and Al weren't writers on those songs.
3  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: FINALLY ! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Part Two on: October 07, 2018, 03:18:37 AM
I think it may possibly be as simple as Mr Desper confusing one cassette tape for another and thinking he's describing one tape, while another one was used for the study video.

This is what it sounds like to me. I have 0 doubts that at some point Desper recorded Carl singing an early version of Sail On Sailor, but over 4+ decades of muddled Beach Boy history something might've happened so that casette ended up with an a capella mix of the version with Blondie singing on Holland. Stranger things have happened.

Also just wanna add to the appreciation for Desper taking the time to post and respond here, ignoring SoS discussion for a sec this study video was incredible! 'Til I Die vocals-only, wow. And it's great to have some more clarity on how the SU coda came together with what Bruce and Brian contributed. My favourite part was the in-depth details of the group's lunch break habits tho
4  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: FINALLY ! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Part Two on: October 06, 2018, 02:00:55 PM
Another thing to consider: the history of the song is extremely murky, but a substantial amount of the lyrics in the version released on Holland were rewritten by Jack Rieley, and I was under the impression that Jack's input didn't come until after the Holland album was initially rejected in 1972. I've seen Van Dyke mention that those convoluted Rieley-ish bridge lyrics were only added after Van suggested they dust the song off and a couple of other sources mention him as being the last collaborator to touch the song. If that's the case, then how can this a capella mix be the same one that was put to a casette in 1971?
5  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: 1968 Copyright Extension prediction thread on: October 05, 2018, 10:51:56 AM
Is Carl's lead vocal on Cabin Essence that we all know a vocal from 1968? Or is it a SMiLE era recording?

1968, along with Dennis on the second chorus, but I think the multitrack with their vocals is missing. At least I remember reading they're missing now from an interview about the Smile Sessions.
6  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys studio disasters and screwups? on: September 24, 2018, 05:05:01 AM

An alternate lyric version with Brian singing "that holds me up" and "I found my way" on the refrains does still exist, because I've been lucky enough to hear it, but it definitely sounds like a rough mix. The vocals are dry and instead of fading the coda keeps going until it hits a dead stop. So something is still in the vaults, wherever it came from.

COMMENT to wjcerar:  Good, glad to hear something is still around. Nevertheless, it would be a ruff mix that I made very early in the song's beginnings. AND I've just forgotten about it. The song was in the works for months, but then left alone for a long time. In other words, it as in a finished form on the multi-track so no one paid attention to it, working on other songs. Then when it came time to properly mix it down . . .    ~swd
Really nice to know it's an actual mix made by you, I can't wait for the study video covering it!
7  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys studio disasters and screwups? on: September 22, 2018, 05:04:07 PM
I remember a story a few years ago that seemed to confirm that a copy of the version of Till I Die with the original lyrics exists. Of course, that doesn't mean that the original master itself was erased.

 COMMENT to Jay: Til' I Die, the multi-track, the master, and all subsequent actions were under my control until its release. Brian's original vocal on the 16-track was erased by me and replaced with the current version by me, at Carl's direction. To my knowledge and memory, no record of the original lyric exists as any ruff mixdown would have been by my hand. I speak of this issue in Part Two. ~swd

An alternate lyric version with Brian singing "that holds me up" and "I found my way" on the refrains does still exist, because I've been lucky enough to hear it, but it definitely sounds like a rough mix. The vocals are dry and instead of fading the coda keeps going until it hits a dead stop. So something is still in the vaults, wherever it came from.
8  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Vocal on 'Til I Die Tag on: July 19, 2018, 09:05:18 AM
Broken down, I'm pretty sure these are the individual parts:

Low "these things I'll be until I die" - Mike

"UN-til I die" harmony - Al

"til I dieeee" - Carl

High "ahhhhhhh" - Brian

Higher "ooooooooo" harmony - Carl (or Bruce, but the track on Get the Boot with that part isolated seems to just be Brian and Carl singing throughout)

All I'll say is I've heard an alternate mix without the reverb where that vocal is much more prominent, and the slightly rough complete "until I die" that syncs up above Mike's vocal is almost certainly Al (unfortunately I'm not allowed to share it). I don't think the arrangement is that complicated in terms of having a different singer do the "UN" though, and for released mixes you can hear it a bit better in Desper's alt version on Endless Harmony where the "I" especially stands out as Al's tonality.

Edit: checked, and Al also sings that part when Brian's band does it live. I'd put money on it being him.
9  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Be Here In The Mornin' Question on: July 09, 2018, 02:51:25 PM
Stephen, while I have absolutely no authority to doubt you (since...you were actually there and I wasn't) and this response isn't meant to be disrespectful in any way, to my ears Brian, Carl and Mike are present in the Hawthorne CA mix of Forever in the same places I hear them on the Sunflower mix. Dennis singing most of the vocal parts including the "together my love" response, Brian at the top of the harmony stack throughout and the high "na-na-na"s in the coda (surely that has to be him speaking at the end?), Carl occasionally in the harmony stack and singing the initial "my-my-my"s before a higher response by Brian, and Mike on the low "baby" parts. That's just what I hear though. There's every possibility I'm wrong.

As for Be Here in the Mornin', I think your notes may have the parts Al and Brian sing mixed up, with Al on the verses and Brian on the high "ahh-ha"s in the chorus. Actually, to me it sounds like Carl (or maybe Al?) sings the high "ahh-ha"s in the first chorus with Brian harmonising above Carl's lead, then Brian takes over the "ahh-ha"s in the second chorus when the Lesley effect on Carl enters, with the final chorus being back to Carl on "ahh-ha"s when Brian is once again harmonising with the lead. Again, that's just what I hear.
10  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Be Here In The Mornin' Question on: July 09, 2018, 05:37:09 AM
On "Be Here In The Mornin'" - Dennis DOES sing the wordless "uh-uhhh-uh-uh"s at the start and later in the song. And yes, that's definitely Brian on the falsetto chorus responses. But I would credit the "lead" simply to Al and Carl, and consider the other two parts as backgrounds. Same with Murry's low "whole"s in the choruses.

Pretty sure the wordless "uhhhh" part at the start of the song is Brian, it's only Dennis when it returns later.
11  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Be Here In The Mornin' Question on: July 07, 2018, 02:34:10 AM
They all of a distinctive ability to sound like each other if they really try to. All except for Dennis, I guess; he has the most different voice from the rest of them.



Not too fast, IIRC according to Stephen Desper this is all Dennis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHA65ZadrjM
Desper's made a few mistakes in terms of vocal credits in his study videos - those are the same vocals heard in the final mix with Brian, Carl and Mike joining Dennis.
12  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Carl or Brian on God Only Knows? on: July 02, 2018, 03:54:53 PM
It's Carl. The Good Vibrations guide vocal with Tony Asher's lyrics is also Carl. The Daddy Dear/Susie Cincinnati demo is Brian and no other Beach Boy is singing on the recording. Carl sings the opening line of This Whole World alongside Mike who's buried in the right channel.

We're done here
13  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Was there any evidence \ on: April 05, 2018, 02:23:55 PM
I think Love to Say Da Da was meant to be Air ... it's a piano piece, with bird sounds.  Later it morphed into other songs.

I've never bought into LTSD being either water or air or part of The Elements at all for a lot of reasons. First, on the 'air piano instrumental' thing, the Second Day variation of Part 2 almost definitely would've had vocals - what we have is clearly only a basic track. Brian humming things in the first Part 2 session hint at it having a similar overall vocal arrangement to Cool Cool Water. Plus, the first version of Cool Cool Water was recorded only a couple of weeks later, which is nothing in Smile-Song-Evolution-Time. For all intents and purposes it's the same song but with the structure moved around a bit, the lyrical concept changed, and lowered a step.

Dada was probably just a standalone song with baby/childlike theme that wasn't really being thought of in the grand scheme of Smile, cos the project was officially scrapped by then and Brian was in his "I dunno maybe let's make Vega-Tables a single or something" between-projects limbo. It has its own title, a lengthy modular structure, and wasn't referred to as having anything to do with The Elements at the time.

The official version uses an abridged Part 1/Part 2 structure and most people assume Part 2 Second Day was for something else or a remake of the original Part 2 but I don't get that at all - it was only tracked a day later and four consecutive sessions were booked which Brian bailed on for the final date. The demo of the late '67 Cool Cool Water shows us that the 'Part 3' bridge (with the CiFotM riff that was partially played in the Dada session) eventually goes back into the chords for the main Part 2 section, which is probably where the Second Day variation would be used. An overall structure of Part 1/Part 2/Part 3/Part 2 (Second Day) takes it to a 3 minute song that can stand as its own thing and I also suspect that CCW in 1967 was meant to be structured in the same way (with the Water Chant as a replacement for Dada's Part 1). IMO Cool Cool Water should be considered Brian's final destination for that musical idea and it's as much a valid part of Smile as the H&V sections from June 1967 or the Cabin Essence vocals from 1968, and it probably did originate from Brian's Elements pool of ideas, but it was never intended for the track The Elements and especially not while it was Love to Say Dada.
14  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Unpopular Beach Boys opinions on: March 25, 2018, 02:21:32 PM
Other than Heroes & Villains, Cabin Essence & Vegetables which I love, I'm not a fan of the lyrics of Van Dyke Parks.
I definitely agree.

So you guys don't like Surf's Up? Wonderful? Huh

Just because you don't like VDP lyrics doesn't mean you don't like the song. I don't like his lyrics either but I love all those songs. It's always nice to get good lyrics, but the music is far far more important.

That’s how I feel. Lyrics usually don’t matter to me unless they’re either extremely good, or extremely bad. .

Hell, I’ll say it. Brian was and is a better lyricist than VDP.

Absolutely nuclear bad take over here
15  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The Media Narrative of Brian's creative collapse Post-SMiLE on: March 23, 2018, 05:57:05 PM
guitarfool2002, I agree nearly completely with your post (Reply #42). I alluded to incidents like Redwood in my post. The only thing I'd change is that other than the month(s) Brian was hospitalized in '68, I'd say he continued working with and for the Beach Boys, significantly, into early 1970 (as opposed to only '68).

When exactly was Brian hospitalized? I think it's significant to note that throughout the early part of 1968, Brian was a powerhouse, writing most of Friends, and on its heels writes and records Do It Again, I Went to Sleep, Sail Plane Song, All I Wanna Do, Walkin' and produces We're Together Again, Walk On By, and Ol' Man River. Then, after June, there's very little that Brian contributes to the band for the rest of the year. After that, the 20/20 album mostly becomes a Dennis show, they do I Can Hear Music, and they dust off and work out old Brian gems: Been Way Too Long, Our Prayer, Cabin Essence, Time to Get Alone.

Then 1969 starts off as being yet another Dennis show: Forever, San Miguel, Got to Know the Woman, Celebrate the News. In March of 1969, they pull together a few songs Brian had demoed before June 1968: Loop de Loop and All I Wanna Do. Then, at the very end of March, the band records the first new song Brian had written for the band since Walkin' nine months earlier. Then another five months go by before the band works on another song written by Brian: Soulful Old Man Sunshine. Finally in October of 1969, the band starts to record a new crop of Brian songs: Games Two Can Play, Add Some Music, When Girls Get Together, Our Sweet Love, Til I Die, At My Window, Where Is She?.

But until then there had been a 15 month period in which the band recorded about 20 new songs with only two of them written by Brian. So something is definitely going on in that year-plus. It's also worth noting too that that burst of creativity in 1969 was more of an aberration than anything. In 1970, Brian only really contributes 3 new songs: I Just Got My Pay, Help is on the Way, and My Solution. He adds a bit to Cool Cool Water and Take a Load Off. But ultimately Brian really pulls back from contributing to the band, which is a remarkable thing to say when you consider that he had already gone through a 15 month dry spell.

From what I've read, Brian entered a psychiatric hospital after the release of Friends at the end of June 1968. The next recording I can find that he participated in was "Time to Get Alone," which the Beach Boys started working on in October 1968. So that would be 3-4 months.

Thanks for that. It is interesting though that he didn't offer a new song to the band for about nine months after his hospitalization. And given all that, it's interesting that the song he does put forward after all that time is "Breakaway." As far as I recall, the lyrics were written by Murry "Reggie" Wilson but they are remarkably appropriate for Brian's own life (though the two certainly had a lot of similarities in terms of their respective illnesses). And still remarkable that after nine months, he puts forth and produces a song that goes on to be internally criticized. I think it was Al who said maybe said something about the lackluster production?

EDIT:

Al: “I was really disappointed and frustrated by how this one ended up. We knew we had 90% of a good record, but typical of his late ‘60s mentality, Brian under-produced and undersold the ending of the record.”



Just to add to this, the session tapes show Brian produced the '68 version of Can't Wait Too Long at the end of July, so he wasn't quite out of commission yet. Certain parts of the song were new (the bridge and the elaborate intro) which I guess would be the last things Brian wrote until Break Away. Bruce mentioned in an interview around then that it was planned as their new single so...not quite sure what happened there. There's also the second version of We're Together Again at the start of September (the 'country' one) that seems to be a Brian production, with him on backing vocals and a lot of the same session musicians from Friends, which complicates things further.

The hospitalisation was probably sometime late in the year during the 20/20 sessions, because it's not until then that Brian actually doesn't appear on songs and there's a Desper quote in the Carlin book that mentions "recording carrying on at the house" while he was gone. After the Time to Get Alone sessions in early October (assuming the vocals with Brian were also done then) there's a month and a half long gap where a lot gets recorded but Brian doesn't appear on anything, suddenly making a return for the I Went to Sleep vocals and Cotton Fields on the 18th November. That's my guess for when it happened.
16  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The Media Narrative of Brian's creative collapse Post-SMiLE on: March 20, 2018, 01:37:28 PM
Brian lost more control than imagined here...at least by the person who kicked this thread into gear.  Smiley Smile was not the album Brian wanted and 'they', the other guys, had a far greater hand in its outcome than Brian did.  He rather felt like they took the project away from him and "GOOD GAWWWWD!!!...look what they DID to it!!!"

After all that?  His commitment wouldn't have been anywhere near as targeted or as focused again.  I don't think Brian ever really trusted 'the group' again.  With no foundation to stand on...he slowly sank from sight and sound.  His barking dog of a cousin had successfully chased all of the future creativity and conspirators out of the yard and the internal factions were established...not as concretely as they would soon become...but the poisonous 'drip' had been injected into the patient and, over time, it would take its toll ... ... ... and its victims.

Sorry, but this has absolutely no basis in reality whatsoever. Direct from Brian in 1968: "We had so much fun. The Smiley Smile era was so great, it was unbelievable. Personally, spiritually, everything."

The evidence is right there on the session tapes and from the mouths of the band themselves that it was Brian's album through and through, and he was as in control as the sole producer as he always had been. Believing otherwise at this point is wilful ignorance.
17  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The Specific Beach Boys Musical Moment That Is Kicking Your Ass Right Now on: February 28, 2018, 08:58:12 AM
The fact that the harmonium/harmonica break in the Cabin Essence verses is a variation on the Heroes and Villains flutter horn melody, I listened to that so many times thinking it sounded familiar before it clicked

Smile's the gift that keeps on giving
18  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brother Re-Issues: Proposed Bonus Tracks on: February 25, 2018, 09:55:35 AM
4 years on, any news on these tracks ever surfacing? Or are we just gonna have to wait out the next decade of copyright extension releases?
19  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Questions about the demise of Smile on: February 20, 2018, 07:16:12 AM
Carl and Denny's tracks? Never heard of them contributing songs to Smile. What songs are they?

I Don't Know and Tones/Tune X
20  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Alternate 'Smile Sessions' Box Set (Fan Mix) on: February 14, 2018, 11:31:54 AM
Google Drive's pretty good for stuff like this, but there really aren't any problems with zippyshare. You just gotta click off the first ad that comes up whenever you try and download and then click download again.

Also great job on these mixes!
21  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Alternate 'Smile Sessions' Box Set (Fan Mix) on: February 13, 2018, 10:59:29 AM
mother of god
22  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: What One Question Would You Ask Mike in an Interview? on: January 31, 2018, 05:51:20 AM
What does "over and over the crow cries uncover the cornfield" mean?

Not that this thread is meant for serious conversation LOL

But just recently someone pointed out that by switching the beginning/end of each of those final verses the lines actually make sense.

Over and over the crow cries hover the wheat field
Over and over the thresher uncover the cornfield

This was probably so obvious to anyone else, but having someone point that out was pretty enlightening.

....Carry on..... Grin

Hahahah, I noticed that pretty much straight away. Hard to believe it caused so much drama 50 years ago.
23  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: What One Question Would You Ask Mike in an Interview? on: January 30, 2018, 05:58:33 PM
What does "over and over the crow cries uncover the cornfield" mean?
24  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: 1968: The Beach Boys vs. The Beatles on: January 30, 2018, 07:22:10 AM
Speaking of Friends, I was recently listening to the MiC discs, and I noticed how good the ‘Meant For You’ Alternate version sounded. Made me realize just how good a remix/remaster of this album will sound (if one comes down the pike).

I think I will always prefer the original mix, but it would be great to hear this album with more clarity and atmosphere like the MiC song offers.

Totally agree. The original Friends stereo mix is great by 60s standards, but all the vocals are mono in the centre channel and the instruments are mostly kinda hard panned left or right to the same degree so it loses some texture. The Friends a capella mix shows just how much cool detail is buried in there when you open up the vocal tracks and give them the proper stereo treatment.

Yeah, I feel like that goes for everything this band did in the 60s and 70s. I always loved ‘Don’t Worry Baby’, but when I heard that 2009 stereo remix I was blown away at just how amazing the vocals sounded in stereo.

Here’s to hoping we get a Friends boxset/release this year!

I'd be surprised if it doesn't happen, just hoping the original being stereo doesn't rule it out for a full on remix!
25  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: 1968: The Beach Boys vs. The Beatles on: January 30, 2018, 06:51:18 AM
Speaking of Friends, I was recently listening to the MiC discs, and I noticed how good the ‘Meant For You’ Alternate version sounded. Made me realize just how good a remix/remaster of this album will sound (if one comes down the pike).

I think I will always prefer the original mix, but it would be great to hear this album with more clarity and atmosphere like the MiC song offers.

Totally agree. The original Friends stereo mix is great by 60s standards, but all the vocals are mono in the centre channel and the instruments are mostly kinda hard panned left or right to the same degree so it loses some texture. The Friends a capella mix shows just how much cool detail is buried in there when you open up the vocal tracks and give them the proper stereo treatment.
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