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631809 Posts in 25305 Topics by 3601 Members - Latest Member: smuffy May 20, 2018, 10:20:07 AM
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1  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Was there any evidence \ on: April 05, 2018, 02:23:55 PM
I think Love to Say Da Da was meant to be Air ... it's a piano piece, with bird sounds.  Later it morphed into other songs.

I've never bought into LTSD being either water or air or part of The Elements at all for a lot of reasons. First, on the 'air piano instrumental' thing, the Second Day variation of Part 2 almost definitely would've had vocals - what we have is clearly only a basic track. Brian humming things in the first Part 2 session hint at it having a similar overall vocal arrangement to Cool Cool Water. Plus, the first version of Cool Cool Water was recorded only a couple of weeks later, which is nothing in Smile-Song-Evolution-Time. For all intents and purposes it's the same song but with the structure moved around a bit, the lyrical concept changed, and lowered a step.

Dada was probably just a standalone song with baby/childlike theme that wasn't really being thought of in the grand scheme of Smile, cos the project was officially scrapped by then and Brian was in his "I dunno maybe let's make Vega-Tables a single or something" between-projects limbo. It has its own title, a lengthy modular structure, and wasn't referred to as having anything to do with The Elements at the time.

The official version uses an abridged Part 1/Part 2 structure and most people assume Part 2 Second Day was for something else or a remake of the original Part 2 but I don't get that at all - it was only tracked a day later and four consecutive sessions were booked which Brian bailed on for the final date. The demo of the late '67 Cool Cool Water shows us that the 'Part 3' bridge (with the CiFotM riff that was partially played in the Dada session) eventually goes back into the chords for the main Part 2 section, which is probably where the Second Day variation would be used. An overall structure of Part 1/Part 2/Part 3/Part 2 (Second Day) takes it to a 3 minute song that can stand as its own thing and I also suspect that CCW in 1967 was meant to be structured in the same way (with the Water Chant as a replacement for Dada's Part 1). IMO Cool Cool Water should be considered Brian's final destination for that musical idea and it's as much a valid part of Smile as the H&V sections from June 1967 or the Cabin Essence vocals from 1968, and it probably did originate from Brian's Elements pool of ideas, but it was never intended for the track The Elements and especially not while it was Love to Say Dada.
2  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Unpopular Beach Boys opinions on: March 25, 2018, 02:21:32 PM
Other than Heroes & Villains, Cabin Essence & Vegetables which I love, I'm not a fan of the lyrics of Van Dyke Parks.
I definitely agree.

So you guys don't like Surf's Up? Wonderful? Huh

Just because you don't like VDP lyrics doesn't mean you don't like the song. I don't like his lyrics either but I love all those songs. It's always nice to get good lyrics, but the music is far far more important.

That’s how I feel. Lyrics usually don’t matter to me unless they’re either extremely good, or extremely bad. .

Hell, I’ll say it. Brian was and is a better lyricist than VDP.

Absolutely nuclear bad take over here
3  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The Media Narrative of Brian's creative collapse Post-SMiLE on: March 23, 2018, 05:57:05 PM
guitarfool2002, I agree nearly completely with your post (Reply #42). I alluded to incidents like Redwood in my post. The only thing I'd change is that other than the month(s) Brian was hospitalized in '68, I'd say he continued working with and for the Beach Boys, significantly, into early 1970 (as opposed to only '68).

When exactly was Brian hospitalized? I think it's significant to note that throughout the early part of 1968, Brian was a powerhouse, writing most of Friends, and on its heels writes and records Do It Again, I Went to Sleep, Sail Plane Song, All I Wanna Do, Walkin' and produces We're Together Again, Walk On By, and Ol' Man River. Then, after June, there's very little that Brian contributes to the band for the rest of the year. After that, the 20/20 album mostly becomes a Dennis show, they do I Can Hear Music, and they dust off and work out old Brian gems: Been Way Too Long, Our Prayer, Cabin Essence, Time to Get Alone.

Then 1969 starts off as being yet another Dennis show: Forever, San Miguel, Got to Know the Woman, Celebrate the News. In March of 1969, they pull together a few songs Brian had demoed before June 1968: Loop de Loop and All I Wanna Do. Then, at the very end of March, the band records the first new song Brian had written for the band since Walkin' nine months earlier. Then another five months go by before the band works on another song written by Brian: Soulful Old Man Sunshine. Finally in October of 1969, the band starts to record a new crop of Brian songs: Games Two Can Play, Add Some Music, When Girls Get Together, Our Sweet Love, Til I Die, At My Window, Where Is She?.

But until then there had been a 15 month period in which the band recorded about 20 new songs with only two of them written by Brian. So something is definitely going on in that year-plus. It's also worth noting too that that burst of creativity in 1969 was more of an aberration than anything. In 1970, Brian only really contributes 3 new songs: I Just Got My Pay, Help is on the Way, and My Solution. He adds a bit to Cool Cool Water and Take a Load Off. But ultimately Brian really pulls back from contributing to the band, which is a remarkable thing to say when you consider that he had already gone through a 15 month dry spell.

From what I've read, Brian entered a psychiatric hospital after the release of Friends at the end of June 1968. The next recording I can find that he participated in was "Time to Get Alone," which the Beach Boys started working on in October 1968. So that would be 3-4 months.

Thanks for that. It is interesting though that he didn't offer a new song to the band for about nine months after his hospitalization. And given all that, it's interesting that the song he does put forward after all that time is "Breakaway." As far as I recall, the lyrics were written by Murry "Reggie" Wilson but they are remarkably appropriate for Brian's own life (though the two certainly had a lot of similarities in terms of their respective illnesses). And still remarkable that after nine months, he puts forth and produces a song that goes on to be internally criticized. I think it was Al who said maybe said something about the lackluster production?

EDIT:

Al: “I was really disappointed and frustrated by how this one ended up. We knew we had 90% of a good record, but typical of his late ‘60s mentality, Brian under-produced and undersold the ending of the record.”



Just to add to this, the session tapes show Brian produced the '68 version of Can't Wait Too Long at the end of July, so he wasn't quite out of commission yet. Certain parts of the song were new (the bridge and the elaborate intro) which I guess would be the last things Brian wrote until Break Away. Bruce mentioned in an interview around then that it was planned as their new single so...not quite sure what happened there. There's also the second version of We're Together Again at the start of September (the 'country' one) that seems to be a Brian production, with him on backing vocals and a lot of the same session musicians from Friends, which complicates things further.

The hospitalisation was probably sometime late in the year during the 20/20 sessions, because it's not until then that Brian actually doesn't appear on songs and there's a Desper quote in the Carlin book that mentions "recording carrying on at the house" while he was gone. After the Time to Get Alone sessions in early October (assuming the vocals with Brian were also done then) there's a month and a half long gap where a lot gets recorded but Brian doesn't appear on anything, suddenly making a return for the I Went to Sleep vocals and Cotton Fields on the 18th November. That's my guess for when it happened.
4  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The Media Narrative of Brian's creative collapse Post-SMiLE on: March 20, 2018, 01:37:28 PM
Brian lost more control than imagined here...at least by the person who kicked this thread into gear.  Smiley Smile was not the album Brian wanted and 'they', the other guys, had a far greater hand in its outcome than Brian did.  He rather felt like they took the project away from him and "GOOD GAWWWWD!!!...look what they DID to it!!!"

After all that?  His commitment wouldn't have been anywhere near as targeted or as focused again.  I don't think Brian ever really trusted 'the group' again.  With no foundation to stand on...he slowly sank from sight and sound.  His barking dog of a cousin had successfully chased all of the future creativity and conspirators out of the yard and the internal factions were established...not as concretely as they would soon become...but the poisonous 'drip' had been injected into the patient and, over time, it would take its toll ... ... ... and its victims.

Sorry, but this has absolutely no basis in reality whatsoever. Direct from Brian in 1968: "We had so much fun. The Smiley Smile era was so great, it was unbelievable. Personally, spiritually, everything."

The evidence is right there on the session tapes and from the mouths of the band themselves that it was Brian's album through and through, and he was as in control as the sole producer as he always had been. Believing otherwise at this point is wilful ignorance.
5  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The Specific Beach Boys Musical Moment That Is Kicking Your Ass Right Now on: February 28, 2018, 08:58:12 AM
The fact that the harmonium/harmonica break in the Cabin Essence verses is a variation on the Heroes and Villains flutter horn melody, I listened to that so many times thinking it sounded familiar before it clicked

Smile's the gift that keeps on giving
6  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brother Re-Issues: Proposed Bonus Tracks on: February 25, 2018, 09:55:35 AM
4 years on, any news on these tracks ever surfacing? Or are we just gonna have to wait out the next decade of copyright extension releases?
7  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Questions about the demise of Smile on: February 20, 2018, 07:16:12 AM
Carl and Denny's tracks? Never heard of them contributing songs to Smile. What songs are they?

I Don't Know and Tones/Tune X
8  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Alternate 'Smile Sessions' Box Set (Fan Mix) on: February 14, 2018, 11:31:54 AM
Google Drive's pretty good for stuff like this, but there really aren't any problems with zippyshare. You just gotta click off the first ad that comes up whenever you try and download and then click download again.

Also great job on these mixes!
9  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Alternate 'Smile Sessions' Box Set (Fan Mix) on: February 13, 2018, 10:59:29 AM
mother of god
10  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: What One Question Would You Ask Mike in an Interview? on: January 31, 2018, 05:51:20 AM
What does "over and over the crow cries uncover the cornfield" mean?

Not that this thread is meant for serious conversation LOL

But just recently someone pointed out that by switching the beginning/end of each of those final verses the lines actually make sense.

Over and over the crow cries hover the wheat field
Over and over the thresher uncover the cornfield

This was probably so obvious to anyone else, but having someone point that out was pretty enlightening.

....Carry on..... Grin

Hahahah, I noticed that pretty much straight away. Hard to believe it caused so much drama 50 years ago.
11  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: What One Question Would You Ask Mike in an Interview? on: January 30, 2018, 05:58:33 PM
What does "over and over the crow cries uncover the cornfield" mean?
12  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: 1968: The Beach Boys vs. The Beatles on: January 30, 2018, 07:22:10 AM
Speaking of Friends, I was recently listening to the MiC discs, and I noticed how good the ‘Meant For You’ Alternate version sounded. Made me realize just how good a remix/remaster of this album will sound (if one comes down the pike).

I think I will always prefer the original mix, but it would be great to hear this album with more clarity and atmosphere like the MiC song offers.

Totally agree. The original Friends stereo mix is great by 60s standards, but all the vocals are mono in the centre channel and the instruments are mostly kinda hard panned left or right to the same degree so it loses some texture. The Friends a capella mix shows just how much cool detail is buried in there when you open up the vocal tracks and give them the proper stereo treatment.

Yeah, I feel like that goes for everything this band did in the 60s and 70s. I always loved ‘Don’t Worry Baby’, but when I heard that 2009 stereo remix I was blown away at just how amazing the vocals sounded in stereo.

Here’s to hoping we get a Friends boxset/release this year!

I'd be surprised if it doesn't happen, just hoping the original being stereo doesn't rule it out for a full on remix!
13  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: 1968: The Beach Boys vs. The Beatles on: January 30, 2018, 06:51:18 AM
Speaking of Friends, I was recently listening to the MiC discs, and I noticed how good the ‘Meant For You’ Alternate version sounded. Made me realize just how good a remix/remaster of this album will sound (if one comes down the pike).

I think I will always prefer the original mix, but it would be great to hear this album with more clarity and atmosphere like the MiC song offers.

Totally agree. The original Friends stereo mix is great by 60s standards, but all the vocals are mono in the centre channel and the instruments are mostly kinda hard panned left or right to the same degree so it loses some texture. The Friends a capella mix shows just how much cool detail is buried in there when you open up the vocal tracks and give them the proper stereo treatment.
14  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Thread for various insignificant questions that don't deserve their own thread! on: January 28, 2018, 01:05:30 PM
The majority of the instrumentation on the Surf's Up album was just the Beach Boys with a handful of session musicians contributing parts wasn't it? That's a pretty big anomaly to have a production (for a Smile track!!) outside the home studio with 12 session players and no Beach Boys. Surprised it's been talked about so little. ALAN BOYD PLEASE SAY IT STILL EXISTS
15  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Thread for various insignificant questions that don't deserve their own thread! on: January 28, 2018, 12:11:59 PM
Oh wow, that looks like a pretty substantial production. Whether it was just a remake of the first section or not welp there's another thing on the list of lost Beach Boys outtakes I really hope turns up one day
16  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Thread for various insignificant questions that don't deserve their own thread! on: January 28, 2018, 11:42:35 AM
In the 1974 BBC radio special Jack commented that they recorded a new backing track  for the song Surf’s Up but scrapped it because the original track was superior to the new recording.
Huh, wonder why they even tried that instead of just using the original in the first place. Goes to show you can't improve on 1966 Brian Wilson.

I'd be interested to know if it was literally a remake of the first part or an attempt at a new backing track for the entire song, before they decided they wanted to use the vintage parts + Brian's vocal and went for the frankenstein approach instead. The percussion/saxophones on the coda of the live performances suspiciously lines up with what was supposedly on the lost Jan 23rd '67 session, so makes me wonder if they ever tried something like that in the studio going off of the instrumentation on the old AFM sheets or Carl's memory (was he there for that one?). Getting into conspiracy theory territory now though lol
17  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Thread for various insignificant questions that don't deserve their own thread! on: January 28, 2018, 10:25:32 AM
Was lurking some old threads and noticed a couple of vague mentions of a 1971 Surf's Up session at Sunset Sound that was supposedly for an unused backing track. Anyone have any more info on this? Work on Smile stuff post-Smile is always dead interesting
18  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Thread for various insignificant questions that don't deserve their own thread! on: January 28, 2018, 10:21:43 AM
Not an insignificant question, but is it known when Pet Sounds was written? I mean, was Brian working on it in the summer of '65? When the BBs were approached about the follow up to Summer Days, had Brian even begun writing their next album? I know there were a few sessions in the fall, so by Oct/Nov he had a few songs in the works. I also read that I'm Waiting For The Day was copyrighted in early '64. Tony Asher didn't get involved until sometime in Dec/Jan. So, is it known if Brian was methodically writing the album over the course of, say, 6-8 months or if he wrote the majority of it relatively quickly and/or concurrently with the recording of the album?

I don't know much about this, but during the I Know There's an Answer group vocal session on SoT there's a part where Brian mentions writing God Only Knows earlier that day, which I think was around March 3rd or something in the middle of the sessions for the album. No idea when the rest were written though.
19  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Love to Say Dada / Cool Cool Water mix? on: January 21, 2018, 11:56:45 AM
*emerges from hedge* https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eenqAPSBA7GzVRLTFd_R2Ze56Xgawkvr/view?usp=sharing

This is something I did recently that I'm still working on - added flutes from Second Day, CCW water chant as the intro, snippets of the Underwater Chant as the "lots of talking" in the silences, basically a "sod it let's make it the water element" attempt to try and make it feel like a real complete song (water effects from Bob Gordon's Real Trip soon maybe??). CCW vocals added from a combo of the Sunshine Tomorrow 2 mix and Steve Desper's study video (sorry Steve), the basic track for the Part 2 section's a remaster of the GV set mix for the more prominent "wah-wah" and less prominent percussion that sits nicer in the mix with everything else. Means the track's still mono but no less stereo than stereo H&V verses anyway. Hope this is kinda what you were thinking!
20  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: What was Brian listening to in 1968-73? on: January 20, 2018, 02:40:56 PM
He once listed Pink Floyd "Dark Side of the Moon" as a personal favorite album.  So I would imagine some of those years in bed (1972-1975) were spent listening to that quite a bit.

Is there a source for this? I have never heard about this before and can only wonder what his reaction was to "On The Run"...

I first read it here: http://petsounds40.blogspot.com/2006/07/day-at-beach-boys-house.html


Must've been wild, those years in bed and sneaking out at night to go to random parties.  Waking up everyday with "Be My Baby" on a loop and then some Randy Newman and DSOTM sprinkled in. 

 Listening

Wait so Brian wasn't a complete mess at this time? I had it in my head he was a recluse out of choice - I didn't imagine he would be out partying.

He was still kinda a mess with serious mental health and drug addiction problems but not a total recluse, just mostly nocturnal and weird and going to parties all the time instead of making music. 1972 and 1974 were reasonably productive years for him (at least compared to the myth that he literally did nothing and never moved from bed)
21  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: What was Brian listening to in 1968-73? on: January 20, 2018, 02:39:49 PM
He once listed Pink Floyd "Dark Side of the Moon" as a personal favorite album.  So I would imagine some of those years in bed (1972-1975) were spent listening to that quite a bit.

Is there a source for this? I have never heard about this before and can only wonder what his reaction was to "On The Run"...

I first read it here: http://petsounds40.blogspot.com/2006/07/day-at-beach-boys-house.html


Must've been wild, those years in bed and sneaking out at night to go to random parties.  Waking up everyday with "Be My Baby" on a loop and then some Randy Newman and DSOTM sprinkled in. 

 Listening

Wait so Brian wasn't a complete mess at this time? I had it in my head he was a recluse out of choice - I didn't imagine he would be out partying.

He was still kinda a mess with serious mental health and drug problems but not a total recluse, just mostly nocturnal and weird and going to parties all the time instead of working. 1972 and 1974 were reasonably productive years for him (at least compared to the myth that he literally did nothing and never moved from bed)
22  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Dennis on \ on: January 16, 2018, 02:25:51 PM
Here's the isolated chorus vocal sped up a semitone, which is also the original speed of the backing track: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N0JOwv9MX6hBAn2s0WXcK4pyjsNzBSS6/view?usp=sharing

Guess that pretty much settles that it's Brian but he sang the part along with the original backing track speed and then that was also slowed down before the rest of the vocals were added

I hear what you mean --

A couple points though ...

The mono mix may not be the same take

That third line sounds like Carl sped up

I'd eat an entire shoe if that's not the same vocalist singing all three lines
23  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Dennis on \ on: January 16, 2018, 12:36:29 PM
Here's the isolated chorus vocal sped up a semitone, which is also the original speed of the backing track: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N0JOwv9MX6hBAn2s0WXcK4pyjsNzBSS6/view?usp=sharing

Guess that pretty much settles that it's Brian but he sang the part along with the original backing track speed and then that was also slowed down before the rest of the vocals were added
24  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Dennis on \ on: January 12, 2018, 09:54:06 AM
Listening again, I'm totally convinced the lead on the chorus is just Brian doing an unusually un-Brianlike lead, not slowed down or anything. Listen to the vocal isolated - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1z6N4Etr54A8iSEvkHYRwdX_OwyclX6vc/view?usp=sharing

That's not Carl and it's not Dennis. The "new" and "glad" inflections are pure Brian. The "AH-AREN'T" is sung in a way that only he was doing on Wild Honey. Now I hear it as Brian the sped up one just sounds like Brian sped up to me, definitely not his normal voice and Carl also doesn't sound like that when sped up a semitone (I tried it out with his vocals across Wild Honey).

The "tell me tell me you know what I mean" is 100% Brian all the way through but the "me and you" sounds like Brian plus someone else, maybe either Carl or Al - https://drive.google.com/file/d/12gTtlEVJZd-Ro5V7sZku_zNncRJ3HaSe/view?usp=sharing

Edit: Compare it to Brian's vocal solo'd on the last chorus of the Country Air alternate mix on Sunshine Tomorrow 2. Totally the same voice.
25  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Dennis on \ on: January 12, 2018, 04:44:11 AM
I've listened to that chorus about 1000 times since the first time this was mentioned and it's definitely the same two vocalists throughout the whole thing. Mono mix sounds like it could be a different take of the lead, but none of those voices sound anything like Dennis.

Edit: Going back to the mono mix the lead really does sound more Brian than Carl. I'm having an existential crisis about this. Also, anyone noticed the count in before the master take on the session highlights is slowed down?

Edit 2: I'm even more convinced both the chorus vocals are Brian now after comparing it to how he sounds on Country Air. Help
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