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680597 Posts in 27600 Topics by 4068 Members - Latest Member: Dae Lims March 28, 2024, 12:55:43 PM
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51  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Good Vibrations tracking/ mixing studios? on: July 09, 2022, 01:33:46 PM
Intriguing possibility, but there are a number of quotes from Brian and others about mixing Good Vibrations to mono at Columbia. Plus, Good Vibrations has the trademark Columbia step fade, which is a dead giveaway whenever it appears. The final mixdown box is dated September 26 which would be cutting it close for Carl to get hold of that magazine from Germany.

Two plausible sessions, as far as I can tell, are October 5 and October 11. If it's October 5, Brian had just been using that 8-track machine to record Wind Chimes with Van Dyke (who's there in some other footage). If October 11, it'd be following a Child tracking session and presumably dubbing that and/or Cabin Essence over to 8-track before taking the tape and the Boys over to Columbia to record vocals that same evening. Either way, I think this is probably sometime after the GV promo shoot where they'd used those fire hats.
52  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Fading Love Song on: March 15, 2022, 07:43:19 AM
Also, when Goldberg put out those three songs on YouTube however many years ago, some and probably all of the recordings (certainly "Sweet and Bitter") had overdubs on them that clearly took place *years* after the early 70s sessions that Goldberg had done with the BBs. "Sweet and Bitter" was probably the most obvious, as most of it sounded much more late 70s/early 80s than early 70s.

In any event, I know someone at some point in the past was thinking the two tracks with Goldberg on lead might surface on a future BB set, but I highly doubt it. I don't need "Fading Love Song" on a BB set.

"Sweet and Bitter" was by far the most interesting track of the three ("Out in the Country" might be more interesting if a BB recording didn't also already exist), and the only one that needs to be released on a "Beach Boys" product.

You don't believe that the version of  "Out in the Country" which was apparently cut for inclusion on the Carl and the Passions album, albeit with a lead vocal apparently by Don Goldberg, should be on the upcoming set focusing on the Blondie and Ricky era of the group? By my qualifications, this is as much of a Beach Boys song as "A Day in the Life of a Tree" if Brian intended for it to feature on a Beach Boys album.

I don't buy for a second that a Don Goldberg lead would have ever ended up on a Beach Boys album. I'd totally buy Brian talked about it as an idea for five minutes, but it would have never happened.

It's not the same scenario as "Tree" on a number of levels.

I suppose it does fall under the "a backing track that could have theoretically ended up as the basis for a BB track" scenario. Make no mistake, I find all of this stuff interesting and want to hear it all. We actually haven't heard the untouched/undubbed multis on the other two Goldberg tracks. "Sweet and Bitter" certainly revealed that very little was actually tracked instrumentally back during the BB sessions.

I certainly wouldn't be bent out of shape if they used one or both of the other Goldberg tracks on a BB archival set. But they seem a bit too out of context to me, and I also find Goldberg's voice to be pretty unremarkable. And certainly, if a future set really jam-packed the discs to the point where nearly ever second is used, I wouldn't want the Goldberg tracks taking up space in place of something else.

Brian primarily wrote, produced, played on (as did Carl), and sang on Out in the Country, and the sessions were funded with the Beach Boys as the artist. The only material difference between it and Tree is that one was released on an album in the 70s.

Goldberg's vocal was intended as a scratch while the song sat in stasis, apparently meant to be replaced by a Beach Boy until Brian came up with the scheme to have him guest on the album. If an unfinished backing track with no vocal doesn't disqualify something from a Beach Boys release, I don't really see why Don singing on it should. Very different situation to Fading Love Song - OITC is an important piece of the time period, especially with the later remake in Holland. As much went into that production as the rest of So Tough. The 2014 CopEx set and Smile Sessions included Larry Denton and Jasper Dailey tracks that were never even aimed at the group.
53  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Fading Love Song on: March 14, 2022, 08:01:40 AM
Fading Love Song isn't Beach Boys; it was written and recorded by Don Goldberg with help from Brian and Ricky sometime in 1972, before Holland. No others of the group were involved. It's Don singing and playing guitar, Brian on piano and bass, Ricky on drums.
54  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Cabinessence questions on: March 10, 2022, 02:37:17 AM
Guys, the lead sheet issue is fascinating (and most likely permanently confounding), but I don't think it will lead us to any insights about the nature of the 1968 tweaks to "Cabinessence."

Listening to the SECRET SMILE bootleg again might clarify the situation about the "Truck Driving Man" lyrics, however.

In the "Cabinessence" section of that bootleg, there's a 43-second snippet of a take that is listed as "Chorus Vocal Overdub." It is the second iteration of what's usually called "Who Ran The Iron Horse," which as we all know plays twice in the song's verse/chorus/verse/chorus/two-part tag structure. If you listen carefully to that snippet, it's clear that the "Truck Driving Man" lyrics are in place, although they are already buried in the mix at about the level of what we hear on the 20/20 release version.

That would argue pretty strongly for the idea that the "Truck Driving Man" lyrics (sung by Dennis) were recorded during the 1966 sessions, and was already in place when they came back to the song in 1968 to overdub Carl's lead vocal for the "Home on the Range" section.

This assumes that the "Secret Smile" tapes are from 1966, but since this 43-second snippet is literally surrounded by the instrumental sessions and all the other vocals except for Carl's lead, it seems highly likely that everything we're listening to in these tapes date from the song's original 1966 recording sessions.

The track in question is a November 1968 mix outtake.
55  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Cabinessence questions on: March 09, 2022, 07:26:54 AM
Brian was still alive - they could (and did on this, according to Desper) consult him on various intentions and ideas, outside of hands-on involvement in the studio. I think it's kinda a big stretch to throw the truck drivin' vocal coming from the brains of anyone other than Brian and Van Dyke into the ring, or that it might've been adapted from other material by Carl and Dennis working up things on their own. Carl and Dennis had sharp musical memory, and if not, they had a direct line to the best person to ask whenever they needed to.
56  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Cabinessence questions on: March 07, 2022, 02:31:00 AM
Brian supposedly steered clear of touching the Smile material directly in '68, although he was definitely in the building at Capitol for at least a few hours on a day they worked on the mixdown (recording the new Time to Get Alone track on 11/21). We're basically in the dark as far as direct comments about the process go from anyone besides Steve Desper.

In any case, the only elements that weren't evidently on tape in 1966 via rough mixes or other material are Carl and Dennis' lead vocals, and sonically the performances are more in line (in my opinion) with their voices circa 20/20, so it's probably a safe-ish assumption that those were added later. It's a more mature-sounding Carl timbre than Good Vibrations or Wind Chimes. There isn't actually direct evidence that they hadn't already been recorded, though. Tape-and-date boffins have nothing further.

IIRC there might've been some Capitol documentation dug up by Brad Elliott indicating overdubs on Nov 20 (same source that provided Our Prayer overdubs taking place on Nov 17), but I'm not completely sure about that. Some known timeline:
Nov 20, Capitol - unused mix attempts at the choruses (also mixing Cotton Fields)
Nov 21, Capitol - verses and 1st chorus mixdowns (also mixing Our Prayer and All I Want to Do, and recording the TTGA remake)
Nov 22, Capitol - 2nd chorus and tag mixdowns
57  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: New interview with Blondie on Brian's website on: November 17, 2021, 10:18:59 AM
Really enjoyed this. Blondie's just an all-around amazing guy. It's great to hear about Brian's active participation in the Holland sessions. Iirc, in the Endless Harmony doc Alan said: "We did the whole Holland album really in Brian's absence". So the truth is probably somewhere in between, with Brian absent from several major sessions but really "with it" whenever he happened to be there?

Brian on the ball for Funky Pretty and Mt Vernon but otherwise hardly making an appearance at the studio throughout the whole trip seems to be the long and short of it.

Blondie saying "he was mostly there in the studio during Holland" and describing how he'd deal out parts like the "old days" directly contradicts the notion that he was hardly making an appearance throughout the whole trip. Add to that what Brian's book mentions, and there is obviously more to the story than what seems to have been the accepted version for decades about the Holland sessions. As stated previously, the facts probably sit somewhere in the middle, but after reading this and other sources, it's hard to accept that Brian was persona non grata during most of these recording sessions. And further adding weight to correcting a previous narrative, there are all the listeners who have been hearing the released session tapes from Wild Honey up to the Feel Flows material this year and hearing with their own ears a Brian Wilson much more involved in the session work than some historians, his cousin, and previous accounts/narratives tried to suggest.

I'm open to entertaining any corrections to those old narratives.

Sure, open to new findings, but Ricky said that he couldn't remember seeing Brian in the Baambrugge studio once. Al's memory was similar, but did note that Brian got involved in the project later, and occupied the studio to record the fairy tale, which was worked on in part after the others had returned to the US. The contemporary production credits and accounts from the group already present quite a cohesive picture of Brian's involvement in the Holland sessions, which is that it wasn't frequent, but it was a lot of quick work when he wanted to work. I don't think comparative revisionism is waiting there. In the Long Promised Road documentary, Brian does speak about showing up to watch Carl produce for a few weeks during a depressive episode but not participating himself until the fairy tale came along.
58  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: New interview with Blondie on Brian's website on: November 17, 2021, 06:30:57 AM
Really enjoyed this. Blondie's just an all-around amazing guy. It's great to hear about Brian's active participation in the Holland sessions. Iirc, in the Endless Harmony doc Alan said: "We did the whole Holland album really in Brian's absence". So the truth is probably somewhere in between, with Brian absent from several major sessions but really "with it" whenever he happened to be there?

Brian on the ball for Funky Pretty and Mt Vernon but otherwise hardly making an appearance at the studio throughout the whole trip seems to be the long and short of it.
59  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The 2020 mix of \ on: October 06, 2021, 01:48:46 AM
One of my favorite BB songs in the entire catalog. I don't get the hate-attention it receives. I love the imagery of two elderly ladies talking about a "great love" that had died along with 3 little girls skipping past and giggling about boys. It's beautiful "circle of life" stuff.

Indeed -- the bridge about how "this must have been goin' on pre-history" is corn, but that last verse is almost profound. The fact that the image just sits there without any kind of hackneyed editorial comment pretty much raises it to the level of poetry, and this is a hill I'll die on.

Totally. If the rest of the verses were at the same level, and you dumped the "whoa-lee-oh"-ing for length, I think it'd be a minor classic. For a moment there it all clicks and the music/arrangement feels purposeful.
60  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The 2020 mix of \ on: October 05, 2021, 06:25:56 AM
The drums were already there by 1976. Unless he played another overdub that wasn't used, Scott Mathews didn't add that part during the sessions for KTSA. It being absent from the 1970 mix doesn't necessarily mean that it didn't exist at the time either, as it wasn't uncommon for parts on the multitrack to be ducked or muted in contemporary mixes, like in Good Time, At My Window, Tears, Cool Water, etc. Comparing the handwriting on the console strip would really be the only way to check.
61  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: What songs did Brian play drums / percussion on? on: October 03, 2021, 04:08:04 AM
Should note that Ron Swallow could drum and I am pretty sure (memory ain’t what it used to be) that he told me that he did so when Glen performed as opening act for the BBs in late May 1965. however that doesn’t mean that he drummed on any BBs tracks. he did, however, often add extra percussion. He was young and not bad looking and there was some talk of him taking Brian’s spot in the touring band when Glen left. But Ron did not know bass. Glen offered to teach him but they were both too busy to make it happen.  

Yeah, Ron did verifiably whack a snare drum at one session. I had no idea he actually could drum, and played drums on stage - that's fascinating if so! For a while he may as well have been the designated studio tambourineist. Suppose we shouldn't rule him out on Sandy then, but the drumming does scream of Brian's quirks to me.
62  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: What songs did Brian play drums / percussion on? on: October 02, 2021, 10:01:22 AM
Brian's the drummer on much of Lei'd in Hawaii. Good possibility of a number of Wild Honey era tracks too, with one that he's confirmed on being Can't Wait Too Long. And of course, he's the multitasking percussionist on Diamond Head and Take a Load Off Your Feet. There are quite a few through the years. The 1962 version of Surfer Moon is a likely other.

Just to clarify the point in bold: Do you mean the Heider re-record studio sessions? I've been listening to that material for years and just assumed it was Dennis as it was on stage in August '67 for the original shows, with Brian on the Baldwin. Is there more info that has come out in recent years?

The studio sessions; Dennis didn't play or sing on any of the re-record material. Brian and Carl shared drummer duties on those, with most of it being overdubbed onto very sparse basic tracks.

Interesting! Considering how sparse Dennis' drumming (and drum setup in general) was in Hawaii, it wasn't too hard to do basic beats on a snare to remake the tracks.

Yeah, he was already basically dialling it back to exactly whatever Brian told him to do at those shows!

Most of the studio remakes were run down in an incredibly simple way, just Brian playing through the setlist on organ and Bruce providing basic guide percussion, everything else overdubbed. Then they went back to remake a few tracks and fill gaps with a slightly fuller 'band' setup. Brian's the drummer on the initial batch, with the rest presumably dotting between Brian and/or Carl.
63  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: What songs did Brian play drums / percussion on? on: October 02, 2021, 09:44:52 AM
Brian's the drummer on much of Lei'd in Hawaii. Good possibility of a number of Wild Honey era tracks too, with one that he's confirmed on being Can't Wait Too Long. And of course, he's the multitasking percussionist on Diamond Head and Take a Load Off Your Feet. There are quite a few through the years. The 1962 version of Surfer Moon is a likely other.

Just to clarify the point in bold: Do you mean the Heider re-record studio sessions? I've been listening to that material for years and just assumed it was Dennis as it was on stage in August '67 for the original shows, with Brian on the Baldwin. Is there more info that has come out in recent years?

The studio sessions; Dennis didn't play or sing on any of the re-record material. Brian and Carl shared drummer duties on those, with most of it being overdubbed onto very sparse basic tracks.
64  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: What songs did Brian play drums / percussion on? on: October 02, 2021, 07:36:13 AM
Brian's the drummer on much of Lei'd in Hawaii. Good possibility of a number of Wild Honey era tracks too, with one that he's confirmed on being Can't Wait Too Long. And of course, he's the multitasking percussionist on Diamond Head and Take a Load Off Your Feet. There are quite a few through the years. The 1962 version of Surfer Moon is a likely other.
65  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: What songs did Brian play drums / percussion on? on: October 02, 2021, 02:30:49 AM
These are the songs that I remember that Brian plays drums on.

The Wanderer (live)
Sandy She Needs Me (?)
Funky Pretty
You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin'
about 2/3rds of Love You (all except Good Time, Honkin' Down the Highway, Mona, I Wanna Pick You Up, Ding Dang, and The Night Was So Young)
iirc, Brian doesn't play on sandy. Another instance of him drumming is where is she (he also plays the guitar on that)

I think it is quite possibly Brian who drums on "Sandy"...the drums were overdubbed, with Dennis seemingly absent.
ah ok, didn't know that

Improbable that it's anyone other than Brian on drums, really, given the playing style, Carl busy on guitar, and the only other two people in the room being Bruce and Ron Swallow.
66  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: BW88 Outtakes (unreleased) questions on: September 28, 2021, 08:41:45 AM
Well... unbeknown to Gary, So Long was a rewrite of a song called Mary Honey dating back to around 1977, which Brian briefly played during the 1990 hotel tape jam. The 'unknown harmony' clip seems to be an unfinished 1987 version of that. It became Melinda Honey a few years later, then You've Touched Me, then back to Melinda Honey again.

Sat Morning as bootlegged just has an early fadeout. The full track is supposed to go on for three minutes, or something like that, and includes the bridge. I don't think there's another version, the way there are for some of those songs.
67  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: My failed \ on: September 28, 2021, 08:31:45 AM
Sketchy source, I know, but the Wouldn't It Be Nice book states that 15 original songs were recorded during the SI sessions (I forget the wording) before being pared down to an album, which neatly ties in with the original tracklist + other three. Country Feelin' features Wasserman too. Could've been later, of course. It's only a guess. Hotter '88 would've included sax, flute and violin/saw contributions per the AFM contracts, which the one we've all heard doesn't have. Plus, different sort of vibe. The Landy era is peppered with complete rerecords of the same songs. Another detail -- Save the Day was originally Is There a Chance (there's a version on David Foster's album) before a Landy/Morgan lyric overhaul.

There are also the covers of In My Life and Let It Be, which haven't circulated. Which... yeah, they recorded. Sounds surreal.
68  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: BW88 Outtakes (unreleased) questions on: September 28, 2021, 06:07:58 AM
I remember a news article on Carl and Gina's wedding that mentioned Brian writing a special tune for the happy couple, called..."Carl and Gina". Do we know for sure this was actually recorded in a studio?

It was. I think Usher might've brought it up in his diary? But a studio recording does exist.
69  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: BW88 Outtakes (unreleased) questions on: September 28, 2021, 02:48:44 AM
Saturday Evening was a slow, lazy, 12/8 variation of the same song with bluesy harmonica. Both Morning and Evening were full structured tracks equivalent to the 90s version (beyond the truncated '87 Morning mix that's bootlegged), don't think either were ever finished.
70  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: My failed \ on: September 28, 2021, 01:49:23 AM
OMG Ian!! This 1980s-1990s session info is a goldmine.

A couple of questions arise...did you happen to notice on the AFM sheets if Rob Wasserman played all of the bass on the "Brian" sessions? Sure sounds like him, and it is a HUGE part of the sound of the "Brian" stuff. Studio Ultimo seemed to be a common studio destination for BW during the 1987-1990 period. I have questions about some of the BW88 stuff I'll post in another thread (God forbid!)

With the session info from Ian and co., this only leaves "Love Ya" as a song specifically recorded for SI. When and where did this session take place? (as well as the many new overdubs for SI)


Wasserman's down for playing on pretty much all of the Sweet Insanity songs, with a lot of those AFM contracts just covering his participation. His instrument was a fretless electric upright bass with 6 strings. The few surviving AFMs are basically all overdubbing with a handful of musicians a while after the initial sessions took place, and if it's helpful, here's what they are (credit to Craig for digging them out):

June 23 (Take One) - Steve Hunter, Matt Bissonette, Gregg Bissonette, Brett Tuggle (the David Lee Roth Band session)
August 20 (Studio Ultimo) - Brian, Rob Wasserman / Tony Selvage (violin), Weird Al (accordion) [2 sessions]
August 21 (Studio Ultimo) - Brian, Rob Wasserman
August 22 (Studio Ultimo) - Brian, Rob Wasserman
August 23 (Studio Ultimo) - Brian, Rob Wasserman
September 4 (Brains & Genius) - Jon Clarke (oboe) / John Reynolds (horn) [2 sessions]

Credits for Country Feelin' exist in the liners for that Disney compilation CD (with Jim Cummings as the animals!). David Marks playing on a session was recounted in his book with Stebbins -- the song isn't named, but it's been thought to be Spirit. The guest vocalists on Spirit include Bob, Jeff Lynne, Tom Petty, Paula Abdul and John Lodge, while Belinda Carlisle and Toni Childs' guest appearances may be accounted for by Make a Wish. Brazilian producer Liminha worked on Do You Have Any Regrets, presumably along with Paulinho DaCosta and Ricardo Silveira.

I think it's entirely possible that Love Ya and Country Feelin' were recorded with the rest of the songs but left off the original lineup. And Hotter, which appears to be a fresh version, not the one recorded for BW88.
71  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Who Played on “Holland”? on: September 28, 2021, 01:34:46 AM
Sorry for the thread necromancy here, but I've been listening to the FF box version of Big Sur and comparing it to the Holland version.

Both are lovely, and I am glad that both exist.

The 1970 version is so bright and spritely, buoyant. The 1973 version sounds a lot more world-weary, zen even.

But what I want to know is, do we have musician credits for either of these? In particular the piano on the Holland version. I would guess Carl, just due to probability, but Al had a big hand in the California Trilogy, so maybe it could be him?

Without anyone having reviewed either session tape, it's difficult to say, but it was surmised for now that the 1970 version is probably somewhere along the lines of Brian on Rock-Si-Chord, Bruce on Baldwin organ, Carl on acoustic and electric guitars, and Daryl on bass and vibraphone, with Desper pushing 'go' on the Rhythm King.

Blondie remembered the saga (meaning Big Sur and Beaks) being himself on bass, Ricky on drums and Carl on piano, which is more or less all there is to the track. It may be Al on acoustic guitar or that may have been overdubbed. Ricky played the pedal steel, and the harmonica is anyone's guess.

Any chance that's Brian? It's always been unclear to me what Brian's actual ability on harmonica is, but he seems to have played a bit and the harmonica on this song always struck me as charmingly random and simple (though I never listened closely) so I could imagine Brian just dropping in and doing it in a take or two. You'd think somebody would have mentioned it, but there's so many other things nobody ever bothered to mention that seems important to us observers, so who knows. I suppose on that basis it could just have easily been anyone in the band who'd blown a harp enough to know how to do the basics.

Could be! Or it could be Billy, or maybe Ricky -- there's a harmonica on the Flame song Lady which had to have been someone in the band, although that's got a bit more finesse. I think it's a good question for Al.
72  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Feel Flows box set on: September 27, 2021, 11:07:29 AM
How come that they sing "Riot in Cell Block #9" and afterwards Mike is citing the lyrics to "Student Demonstration Time"?

They had been doing "Riot" for a year or two, and I think they recorded "Student Demonstration Time" a few months after this May gig. My guess would be Mike is reciting his brand new, as-yet-unrecorded, re-written lyrics?


According to Wikipedia the album was released in August, the recording of the song done between November '70 and early '71. I'd think that by this time (May '71) they would do "Student Demonstratin Time". But maybe they only started doing it after the album was released?  Huh

I don't know what the definitive sessionography is on that one. In scouring for info, I see a notation for a mixing session for "Student..." in November '70, but then additional (presumably *recording*) sessions for it in July '71 in the midst of a flurry of "Surf's Up" album sessions.

I recall Blondie Chaplin saying his first Beach Boys session was playing bass on "Student...."; was Blondie really recording with the band as early as November 1970? Or would he have been at those mid-1971-ish sessions?

The November 1970 mix was used on the album, with the July 1971 AFM certainly an after the fact writeup for appearances. By rule of thumb and other evidence, so are the others from late in that month.
73  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Feel Flows box set on: September 22, 2021, 11:51:38 PM
Has there ever been any info on why My Solution was recorded in the 1st place?

There's no way this was ever done with the intent of it being an album track on any project, right?

I'm guessing it was just written/recorded for fun/as a goof, but wondering if anyone knows any other info.

It was supposed to be a Halloween track - maybe a Halloween single?  Or Bside?

He was recording it on Halloween, so that'd be hard to make happen.
74  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Celebrate The News on Feel Flows box set on: September 22, 2021, 11:59:07 AM
Also, at the risk of losing friends here: is it wrong of me to wonder how Dennis produced tracks of the precision and complexity of Celebrate the News and San Miguel in 1969 that he never matched later? Do his production credits on these songs belie a fair bit of involvement from Brian? By the same token, surely Sunflower is rich in Brian Wilson vocal arrangements, even where they aren't his songs or production credits. This seems to be to be an under-appreciated (see what I did there?) fact about the album.

My impression from the last few boxsets has been that the original "produced by the Beach Boys" that appeared on the records when they came out is actually about right (other than Smiley Smile which is obviously a Brian production, imo). Up through Sunflower, my guess is that most of the time what that meant was Brian and/or Carl co-producing with the songwriter. For these two Dennis songs, there is just no way Dennis did those vocal arrangements at that moment in his career. To me, they bear the clear hallmarks of Brian's work - noticeably more complicated than, say, I Can Hear Music, although Carl got better and better at doing Brianesque vocal arrangements as the years went on. Of course, with the Beach Boys, the role of producer and the role of arranger have always been a little confused, because Brian did both. (Phil Spector had Jack Nitzsche - no one claims that he didn't produce his records because Nitzsche did the arrangements). So that's one way to think of these songs, and these sessions: Dennis produced in the classic sense: he lead the session and defined the vision of how the song would sound. Brian arranged the vocals (at least in the Sunflower years), and Brian and/or Carl co-arranged the tracks with Dennis. Personally, I suspect this model extends to the Bruce and Al songs as well. Then, in the years between 20/20 and Holland, Carl slowly takes over more and more arranging and production duties from Brian.

Brian had nothing at all to do with either San Miguel or Celebrate the News. He isn't even on them. Forever and (to some degree) Slip on Through however are Brian arranging the vocals.

Bruce, with Michel Colombier on the orchestral touches, arranged all of his own work. Al and Dennis were capable instrumental and vocal arrangers in their own right and took lead of their own tracks. It was a collaborative environment and the situation changed song to song; you can't really pinpoint any consistent model for the way the roles worked in those years. Carl wasn't the principal complex vocal handler in Brian's absence, though - that'd be Bruce. I Can Hear Music was his doing too.
75  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Who Played on “Holland”? on: September 22, 2021, 05:32:05 AM
Sorry for the thread necromancy here, but I've been listening to the FF box version of Big Sur and comparing it to the Holland version.

Both are lovely, and I am glad that both exist.

The 1970 version is so bright and spritely, buoyant. The 1973 version sounds a lot more world-weary, zen even.

But what I want to know is, do we have musician credits for either of these? In particular the piano on the Holland version. I would guess Carl, just due to probability, but Al had a big hand in the California Trilogy, so maybe it could be him?

Without anyone having reviewed either session tape, it's difficult to say, but it was surmised for now that the 1970 version is probably somewhere along the lines of Brian on Rock-Si-Chord, Bruce on Baldwin organ, Carl on acoustic and electric guitars, and Daryl on bass and vibraphone, with Desper pushing 'go' on the Rhythm King.

Blondie remembered the saga (meaning Big Sur and Beaks) being himself on bass, Ricky on drums and Carl on piano, which is more or less all there is to the track. It may be Al on acoustic guitar or that may have been overdubbed. Ricky played the pedal steel, and the harmonica is anyone's guess.
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