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662205 Posts in 26543 Topics by 3796 Members - Latest Member: Join The Human Race September 28, 2020, 06:19:23 AM
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1  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: This 1976 Brian interview is hilarious on: Yesterday at 12:26:24 PM
A lot of the 90s material came from 50/50 collaboration, but some of the most lauded tunes - Gettin' in Over My Head, It's Not Easy Bein' Me, Soul Searchin' - were almost all Andy. Brian only added the bridges to the first two (Andy deliberately left gaps) and then contributed lyrics to Soul Searchin' after the music had already been written and recorded. With both that and Brian's personal condition, I can understand Carl being wary. Maybe not to the extent that I understand Stars & Stripes being a preferable option, but, y'know.
2  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Feel Flows box set on: Yesterday at 07:13:25 AM
Howie, are you saying the size of the current assembly has something to do with it?

Yeah, I know you can't answer but I feel like this thread can to get to page 80 before the end of the month, as a team I reckon we can do it
3  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Feel Flows box set on: Yesterday at 06:41:14 AM

The current assembly features a good 25 minutes of Dennis Wilson's POOPS/HUBBA HUBBA material

Knowing from you all what EVERYBODY wants from this collection -- I really can't see how this set could be improved, if altered.


26 minutes of Poops/Hubba Bubba material?

I'd been wondering if the Dennis & Daryl tracks would be included under a Beach Boys release so I really, really hope whatever the issue is gets resolved (not that it needed any more incentive). It completely reframes the Surf's Up/1971 era when you put that stuff next to the others' work and realise Dennis was essentially the dominant songwriter in the group for a while, despite almost nothing surfacing when it should've.
4  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Sail Plane Song (2012 version) appreciation thread on: September 25, 2020, 02:56:25 AM
It could've been cool on some kind of alt experimental mixes comp, but I'm not really a fan on the basis that it could never and would never have sounded like that in 1968. The original has that gentle, creepy 'psychedelicate' thing about it and to me the remix tries too hard to turn it into something it isn't. Better than the 2018 one though.

I don't think it'd be accurate to call Sail Plane Song a demo. It's a master probably a few overdubs away from the finish line, consistent scale-wise with Brian's other work in mid-'68.
5  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Vega-Tables single thoughts on: September 20, 2020, 03:58:26 PM
Wonderful v3 (and the possible-bridge Child section) is the first thing on a Sound Recorders comp reel before the various Vegetables sections in chronological order, meaning it existed by the first Vegetables tracking session on April 4 at the latest. It's a modular recording set for copy & pasting - tracked over 5 takes - that received three overdubs (Mike doubled in the first verse and the group live into two mics during the second verse). It's not finished, but there's zero question that this was an actual studio master. There's nothing to say those vocals couldn't have been added during the session Paul visited but it isn't the off-the-cuff performance Derek Taylor talked about.

The lead on the second version is Carl, and there was probably more to Brian scrapping it than one flubbed take of a vocal.
6  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Vega-Tables single thoughts on: September 20, 2020, 02:04:58 AM
What you've got here isn't quite right. That 'April assembly' isn't a Brian edit - it's a bootlegger compilation derived straight from the multitracks with all faders up, plus a big gap in the middle. Brian mixed various individual sections at the time but no edits by him have surfaced. Vegetables' basic track wasn't initially modular, it was a whole piece, recorded: Verse / Verse / Chorus / Verse / Fade Chorus

At some point down the line Brian decided to extend it by adding a scat verse and tracking the final verse lyrics over the second verse (to be dubbed down individually and moved elsewhere), experimenting with a Marilyn a capella fragment, replacing the choruses, then adding the fade and Ballad Insert. I think Alan Boyd's edit for the Smile Sessions is pretty damn close to what it eventually arrived at, maybe with the Ballad Insert and last verse the other way around. What Alan did is better anyway.

The third version of Wonderful is the one that was recorded as a b-side to Vegetables. The first version had been thrown away by January, the second version in turn by April. Derek Taylor described an improv performance by the group around the piano during Paul McCartney's visit, not what had already been put to tape.
7  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Thread for various insignificant questions that don't deserve their own thread! on: September 16, 2020, 04:03:31 AM

Ah, well that makes sense of course. Though surely there's got to be some sources out there for the rest of the album which can be used without threat of reversion

Stay tuned? It exists, but not published.
8  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Thread for various insignificant questions that don't deserve their own thread! on: September 16, 2020, 04:01:32 AM
I was just wondering if there are any sources on the personnel for the Smiley Smile album? I've noticed on Wikipedia in particular that information on who plays on the album is woefully under-detailed - there's zero detail as to what instruments each member played, and even Bruce Johnston is omitted from the personnel list. I've also noticed that on many of the other, more detailed personnel sections of Beach Boys albums on Wikipedia, credited sources came from Craig Slowinski, while the same isn't the case for Smiley Smile.

That’s been my personal project. I’ve been using whatever I can of Craig Slowinski’s credits to update Wikipedia. I was told by other editors I was only allowed to do something with a source that covered most or all of the album. I couldn’t just list the known credits (I.e. Carl - Vocals, Bass, Guitar on “Good Vibrations” and “Gettin’ Hungry”, Percussion on “Good Vibrations”, etc) for a couple random tracks. I did try to do that using the GV and H&V credits from Wiki, but that was reverted as well. I’ve been using c-man’s ESQ sessionographies but I’ve had to buy backorders and I haven’t bought Smiley Smile’s issue yet (partially because its my least favorite BB album so far).

That's pretty ridiculous that they won't take most sources, particularly since for many other bands they specify which tracks a particular member played a certain instrument on - case in point Let It Bleed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_It_Bleed. Perhaps a system like that could possibly be implemented? Surely for them to arbitrarily delete credits when it has been proved to be accurate for the reason you stated would be akin to treating dandruff with decapitation, as Frank Zappa would put it.

Bruce is very definitely on Good Vibrations, but he's not on Vegetables, Heroes or anything else. @sloopjohnb72 and I could fill in most credits for Smiley as far as they can be answered, but from what I've heard the wiki editors pretty much won't take a source unless it's on paper or called Andrew Doe, and that's not something that exists for Smiley Smile just yet even in ESQ.

That's interesting as well, I never knew that - though I was aware that Bruce declined to go to Hawaii with the rest of the Beach Boys to record Lei'd In Hawaii. Was there any particular reason for Bruce's general lack of participation?

Too weird and drugs, those were his reasons. Aside from a Child is Father cameo during one of the April Sound Recorders sessions he wasn't in a studio with them from the end of February to September.
9  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Thread for various insignificant questions that don't deserve their own thread! on: September 15, 2020, 09:20:50 AM
Bruce is very definitely on Good Vibrations, but he's not on Vegetables, Heroes or anything else. @sloopjohnb72 and I could fill in most credits for Smiley as far as they can be answered, but from what I've heard the wiki editors pretty much won't take a source unless it's on paper or called Andrew Doe, and that's not something that exists for Smiley Smile just yet even in ESQ.
10  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Thread for various insignificant questions that don't deserve their own thread! on: September 13, 2020, 11:12:28 AM
It strikes me as odd that we don't have a known 2nd engineer on most Beach Boys sessions from the 60s or 70s. I know Desper was a one man operation at the home studio, but would Chuck Britz, Larry Levine etc. have regularly worked with unnamed tape ops or was it standard for them to fill both roles? I've only heard of a few - Winston Wong on the Sloop sessions, Bill Halverson at Heider's, and the mystery 'Don T' at Columbia.
11  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Barnyard and Mrs O'Leary's Cow on: September 08, 2020, 04:24:03 PM
Quote from: krabklaw link=topic=27318.msg664855#msg664855
As I recall it, the use of the H&V intro being combined with Mrs. Oleary  didn't come from Brian. It was writers and fan mixers who did it when Smile speculation was an ongoing hot topic and the idea has just stuck over the years.

Didn't this combo first appear in the Linnet mixes of 1988. The thrust of what you say is correct though, it didn't come from Brian.

Yeah, that was its debut. Not that it isn't a great idea!
12  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Barnyard and Mrs O'Leary's Cow on: September 08, 2020, 02:25:12 AM
There weren't really any intentional musical echoes through Smile, only recycled ideas that tended to result in the source song getting scrapped. Early fanmixes brought those repeating elements together through necessity and then BWPS decided to lean into it as a feature.

As for this, if there's anything there I think it's just because Brian often wrote in I-IV vamps at the time and used a small bag of similar rhythms. I personally don't hear it though. About half of everything from that era could be sung over anything else at random if you change the key and/or tempo. Pet Sounds has its repeating melodic motifs and chord patterns too, but that's down to writing habits rather than an attempt to connect things.

The Elements was The Elements - it was 1/4 or thereabouts of an unfinished track and wasn't worked on post-November. Its connection to the H&V 'intro' (I think that title is a mistake due to misreading the tape box anyway) didn't get established until decades later.
13  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Ten Years Harmony WAS recorded 😏 on: September 07, 2020, 06:21:43 AM
You know this was released in 1974, right?
14  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Surf's Up - 1971 work on track questions on: September 04, 2020, 09:07:15 AM
For a lot of reasons, it's unlikely that such a thing was ever recorded.

Disagree.  To just dismiss it and say it never existed is the easy way out.  I do think it's more likely than not that it DID exist and was lost/stolen/damaged at some point.  For what other Smile song on the Dec '66 track list, is there NOT an instrumental track?  The Elements remains a vague wildcard, but for everything else we can point to one or more matching instrumental tracks. Surf's Up was one of the centerpieces of the album that, remember, Brian was still promising in March/April 1967.  That he would just blow off the 2nd half of the song and not do an instrumental track defies logic.

We don't know the identity of Alan's 3rd hand source who described the section as "pretty weird, lots of strange horn and string parts," but that description is consistent with the session logs in terms of the roster of musicians present.

Remember, the original multitracks for Surf's Up were taken from the tape library to Carl's home in June 1971 and reviewed by Carl and Jack Rieley without an engineer present, according to Keith Badman's book.  Under those circumstances, would it shock anyone if a tape got lost/misplaced/damaged/discarded?   It doesn't take a huge leap of imagination to guess that Part 1 didn't suffer the same fate *because* they used it in the '71 reassembly.  

It's not just guesswork, there's a paper trail to consider here.

The 1st Movement track was probably off the table by the time Brian taped his solo piano/vocal version on December 15. It's been called a 'demo' officially on TSS etc. because that's a convenient way to categorise it, but it's pretty clearly an actual overdubbed studio master, meaning it wiped out anything that came before (if you look at the Inside Pop reel notes there's material about him punching in certain vocal parts and overseeing the mix). That's just the way Brian was working at the time. I think it's very unlikely that he'd have planned a 2nd Movement track to follow the first once that decision had been made, and that 'version two' even made some small musical revisions to the first half of the song.

The first of the two sessions on Jan 23 1967 was for 'Surf's Up', the second was only marked 'Part One'. You'd assume both would be Surf's Up, but neither of those titles are really suggestive of a '2nd Movement' track. Maybe a remake of the first half only, maybe an entire new backing track, maybe overdubs onto the second recording, but however you look at it it's more plausibly a clean slate than an attempt to complete the hanging November '66 version. And January is otherwise the month Brian worked on a bizarre Wonderful remake, a number of Heroes restructure experiments that never went anywhere and some songs for Jasper Dailey.

Would Carl really misplace such an important recording he supposedly played on? They were desperate for anything with Brian's hand at the time. Besides the results of that day not being around for review by '71, the second session is a total anomaly in that two of the musicians were paid for a string arrangement and a load of others were sent home without being used. That didn't happen at a 60s Brian session before or after. Nothing here is very indicative of something that went well. And remember, in a 3 hour session the tape sometimes only rolled for 20-30 minutes - it's very possible that something was rehearsed, rejected and never recorded. Or even that the session was cancelled without the proper paperwork being filled in.

I wouldn't discount the idea completely after December 19 Heroes found an explanation in those Durrie Parks acetates, but the odds are stacked against it.
15  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Surf's Up - 1971 work on track questions on: September 04, 2020, 02:42:42 AM
For a lot of reasons, it's unlikely that such a thing was ever recorded.
16  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Surf's Up - 1971 work on track questions on: September 03, 2020, 02:52:53 PM
That would be an interesting listen considering the tempo would be more scattered than usual. Presumably it wasn't working and that's why they canned it.

I recall the Desper video said they did subtle overdubs to the 'second movement' - not the brief BVs and moog, but some piano and vocal 'tidying up' by Carl to fix dropouts in the apparently damaged tape. I hear no evidence of this on the recording tbh, and I suspect it would be audible if so. Someone feel free to tell me if I'm misremembering Desper's claim

Mark Linett chimed when it came up once and said there's nothing like that on the tapes.
17  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Thread for various insignificant questions that don't deserve their own thread! on: September 03, 2020, 10:35:17 AM
The clacker or castanet sound that appears in say San Miguel for example - is it one person over dubbing them? Or multiple people playing it?

Was there some mind of delay effect applied? Or did the player slightly delay the second play thru?

I believe it's Hal Blaine and more Hal Blaine.
18  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Surf's Up - 1971 work on track questions on: September 03, 2020, 10:34:45 AM
I think what you're remembering is that email Q&A, where Rieley claimed they had "lots of musicians" over to redo parts that had been played badly in the 60s. That isn't true (only instruments added were an organ in the first half, and a Moog bass and shaker in the second half), but as Steve said, Jack might have been recalling the Sunset Sound session where they attempted to remake the whole 1st Movement track synced to Brian's piano in order to keep his vocal. I think it still exists but is yet to surface. Jack mentioned it in the '74 radio special and Alan Boyd briefly talked about it a post-TSS interview.
19  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: 'All I Wanna Do' Mystery Lyrics on: September 02, 2020, 07:22:59 AM
Yeah, there's definitely not that many lyrical parts going on. The delay and the sheer density of the production makes it sound like more.

Mike: All I wanna do (straight rhythm, low)
Al and Brian: Doo doo doo's in two part harmony
Bruce: All I wanna do (syncopated, high lead part)
Carl: If/when you get lonely in the night I/I'd [indecipherable]

Then the 'my love is burning brightly' bit comes in which is an overdub. But that's definitely all there is.

Exactly, you've gotta look at it objectively in terms of how many voices and overdubs there are. The last few words of Carl's part might be a bit muffled but the rest isn't really up for interpretation.
20  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: 'All I Wanna Do' Mystery Lyrics on: September 02, 2020, 04:53:16 AM
Without meaning to put down your efforts too hard, this is complete word salad. Maybe every word of the lyric isn't completely decipherable in its current state (although...I think we did get it a while ago anyway), but it certainly isn't that. Who's singing all of this? Neither Brian nor Al have lyrics, Mike and Bruce both repeat the phrase "all I wanna do," and Carl's line is the same every time in the final chorus - he's only wordless scatting in the first. It's not as obscured or as complicated as you're making it out to be. This is listening too much and hearing words where there aren't any.
21  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: New England Waltz Personnel on: September 02, 2020, 03:13:17 AM
Any musicians that match the oboe and flutes on some of those tracks? (There's definite electric bass on all of them, Todd Clark sounds like the more likely of the two here based on a quick google)
22  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: 'All I Wanna Do' Mystery Lyrics on: August 31, 2020, 01:29:16 PM
Man I wanna hear your copy of Sunflower

"some degree of error"
23  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Unpopular Beach Boys opinions on: August 30, 2020, 10:28:03 AM
OK this has been bugging me lately - Mike made a big mistake on the chorus lyrics to Good Vibrations.  "I'm pickin' up good vibrations, she's giving me THE excitations!"  First line has 8 syllables, the second nine, and the "THE" sticks out like a sore thumb.  It doesn't even make sense - what's wrong with she's giving me excitations?  What are "THE" excitations?  So on probably the biggest song in their career, Mike blew the lyrics.  No wonder Brian wanted Van Dyke to do them after he'd promised them to Mike.

I REALLY hope this is a joke, but...

Sing "she's giving me excitations" to yourself, it sounds terrible. It's a vowel into a vowel. The 'the' pickup note gives it some swing, Mike knew what he was doing.

Uh, the excitations” is also a vowel into a vowel.  And  “me excitations”sounds fine, as countless crowds of fans at their concert know as this is what they sing when they sing along.

If you really want to go into it on a stupid granular level, "me" into "the" breaks it up with another eighth note subdivision (completing "giv-ing-me-[blank]") so there isn't a weird hard pause between an 'e' and an 'eh', or a weird elongated 'meeeEH'. All I can say about fans if they're really singing along like that is they have rubbish musical instincts, lol.
24  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Unpopular Beach Boys opinions on: August 28, 2020, 03:08:42 PM
OK this has been bugging me lately - Mike made a big mistake on the chorus lyrics to Good Vibrations.  "I'm pickin' up good vibrations, she's giving me THE excitations!"  First line has 8 syllables, the second nine, and the "THE" sticks out like a sore thumb.  It doesn't even make sense - what's wrong with she's giving me excitations?  What are "THE" excitations?  So on probably the biggest song in their career, Mike blew the lyrics.  No wonder Brian wanted Van Dyke to do them after he'd promised them to Mike.

I REALLY hope this is a joke, but...

Sing "she's giving me excitations" to yourself, it sounds terrible. It's a vowel into a vowel. The 'the' pickup note gives it some swing, Mike knew what he was doing.
25  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Thread for various insignificant questions that don't deserve their own thread! on: August 28, 2020, 07:57:51 AM
What is the largest Brian/BB arrangement in terms of sheer number of instruments? Counting overdubs and all.

I’ve been thinking about it and Three Blind Mice is probably up there.

Like a masochist, I did the maths.

There are 30 musicians playing on the Good Vibrations single, not including Beach Boys who only sang, but the track has 65 individually performed instruments across all sections and overdubs. This isn't counting anything that isn't in the final single mix.
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