My memory must be getting senile. First, I forgot a lot about the infamous SMiLE handwritten note thread. Now, I'm drawing a blank on the Brian/Al vocal debate. Didn't Steve Desper, who engineered the session, say that it was Brian on the "Surf's Up" coda?

Yep. I asked him in his thread.

Doesn't the bass line and harmony section of "Fall Breaks" derive from "Fire", though?

It does indeed...as much as I hate to disagree with AGD, it's always seemed pretty clear to me that there was a link between "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" and "Fall Breaks."  Not that I have any evidence for this either, but others have suggested (and I agree) that "Fall Breaks" was Brian's "candle" version of "Fire."  

With a bit of humor thrown in as well, perhaps.

Not to interrupt the current flow of discussion, but here's what David Anderle said in late '67 about the Elements:

"We were aware, he [Brian] made us aware, of what fire was going to be, and what water was going to be; we had some idea of air. That was where it stopped. None of us had any ideas as to how it was going to tie together, except that it appeared to us to be an opera. And the story of the fire part I guess is pretty well known by now."

Wait wait wait WAIT.... "The Old Master Painter" was once part of H&V?  I definitely have to redo my mix, I think...

What about "Do You Like Worms"?  That seems like it would fit as a (looong) bridge between parts 1 & 2, instead of just the Bicycle Rider theme...

Oh, and that "Swedish Frog" nickname always bothered me - it's "Swedish for water!"

Well, the ending to the Cantina version was originally the last part of OMP. So it gave OMP a Country and Western feel.

I've always thought that sounded odd when I've sequenced it because (assuming YAMS followed OMP) the song sort of has two fades in sequence--the dreary one for Sunshine followed by the Cantina ending.

What's wonderful about the title is, if you don't know what Mrs. O'Leary's cow is, the title seems so silly... you're expecting some happy barnyard tune again.  But then OH MY GOD THIS SONG IS A NIGHTMARE WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH A FRIGGIN' COW?!

"Mrs. O Leary's Cow" refers to the Great Chicago Fire of 1871, and specifically, a story reported at the time about how Catherine O"Leary's Cow started the fire by knocking over a lantern. The reporter who originally reported this later admitted it was untrue.

He knows that!!!1111

Whoops. Look like I misread his post.   

What's wonderful about the title is, if you don't know what Mrs. O'Leary's cow is, the title seems so silly... you're expecting some happy barnyard tune again.  But then OH MY GOD THIS SONG IS A NIGHTMARE WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH A FRIGGIN' COW?!

"Mrs. O Leary's Cow" refers to the Great Chicago Fire of 1871, and specifically, a story reported at the time about how Catherine O"Leary's Cow started the fire by knocking over a lantern. The reporter who originally reported this later admitted it was untrue.

From looking at the track list on the cover, the title was "The Elements."  When it was recorded it was The Elements, Part One, Fire.  As part of the suite, it's not clear it would have had it's own title - if the suite was broken down on the record label into parts, then maybe we'd have had Mrs. O'Leary's Cow/I Love to Say Dada/Vegetables/and whatever air was to be - untitled piano instrumental to be named - underneath The Elements title.

Perhaps to be listed on the actual record label as something like the following

The Elements
a. Mrs. O Leary's Cow (Fire)
b.
c.
d.

Agreed about the ages theme for this song. Seems that Child was meant to be one of the "deeper" tracks on Smile. That lonely piano part seems to signify a moment before something is about to happen, be it birth death or something else. I assumed that part of the song represented the final moments before someones passed on--with the "Child" representing a spirit that led them by the hand into the afterlife. Deep stuff indeed! 

Have listened to what exists of the song and have wondered time and again what the original lyrics would have been.

Here's an interesting link: The source of the title for Child is Father of The Man. Two poems by William Wordsworth just after the year 1800. Both poems share three common lines:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ode:_Intimations_of_Immortality_from_Recollections_of_Early_Childhood

Specifically, in the "Goodbye Surfing Hello God" article by Jules Siegel

What I think I remember about VDP's involvement with Good Vibrations is not that he suggested the cello but rather suggested that it be played in 'triplets'.

This is a quote from Van Dyke:
"Well, many years ago, I suggested to Brian Wilson that he put a cello on 'Good Vibrations.' He did, and it became a signature sound of that song. I also suggested the triplet fundamentals in the music."

Wasn't that Carl who suggested the cello?

Dunno.

I've read or heard VDP say it directly. Not sure if Carl had also made that claim.

I just got his "Song Cycle" CD on tuesday. Words can't describe it. Gonna be playing that one to death me's think.

P.S.  This may make me sound as stubbon as a mule but now having heard it, I point blank refuse to believe that he played zero part in composing the music to Smile.

Now there's a thought. I must confess, here and now, and for the first time, that I always was of the very same opinion. How and when I do not know. The musical leap from Pet Sounds to Smile is enormous. For these amateur ears, it is pretty inconceivable that Brian changed his compositional talents in such a way. Mind: I do not belittle Brian's capacities one iota here. But since I know Song Cycle for 35 years now, and Pet Sounds/Smile material for 36, I have a more than a hunch indeed that Parks 'helped and supported, mediated, enabled' Brian with the music for Smile also, besides the words.

VanDyke has indicated that although he didn't help Brian with the lyrics to Good Vibrations, that he did suggest using a cello. If true, that would be a good start.

[Do You Like Worms]

Do You Like Worms.  Let alone the title, I never thought the "song" would have made it!  It just sounded so...odd.  Sparse...or something.  There's the nice verse part with the drums pounding "boom, boom, boom-boom-boom"....but then it just switches back to the H&V piano thingy.

 

When I first heard that...I said....."nooooo, noooo that's not right."  Seriously...could that have actually been a track?  Noooo.

Of course now it's like the ultimate SMiLE song to me.  But still...I can easily "dig" up those "WTF" feelings I had when I first heard it.  Is that really what he intended??

which of course brings us to perhaps the most bone chilling quote in the history of al jardine; on hearing the boxset version... "that's not 'do you like worms!'

I can't remember where i heard that...

Wow. Never heard that one. Penny for his thoughts, and then some. That version on the boxset does sound creepy during the chorus--the notes used and the sterile way in which it's recorded. Its incomplete state just adds to that feel.

Interesting thread. I've never believed that BWPS was an attempt to finish what would have been the original album, and I'm really glad Brian did not touch the original tapes for BWPS. Very wise leave those originals in the past. "Brian Wilson Presents" has elements that would never have been on the original album, such as the lyrics over the water chant, which VanDyke intended were written as a moment of cleansing for Brian's mental hell. The only way Brian would have gotten near any of the Smile material was to do it live, and while they were rehearsing for the 04 shows, Jeff F. pointed out that they were not trying to recreate the mystique of the original Smile, just trying to perform the songs. Using that approach, it would have been pretty silly to try to recreate the mystique in the studio after the live shows were performed. I think they were wise enough to realize that that would have been an impossible task. Had the album just been called "Smile", used the original artwork, and use the original backing tracks I would have taken issue with BWPS as an attempt to masquerade as completion of the original work. I don't think that's the case here so much as BWPS is a 2004 interpretation of the original material. If it allows the guy to exorcise some of the demons in his head and actually feel good about the music, and get on with his life, so much the better. I strongly doubt TLOS would be what it is if BWPS hadn't happened.

Even though I prefer the original Smile, I'm thankful to have both, and I'm really thankful BWPS came out because it piqued my curiosity enough to go and get the Good Vibrations boxset and seek out the original recordings--all that probably would never have happened without BWPS.

I loved it when it came out but now rarely listen to it.  

Nor do I. I'd never heard the original Smile fragments prior to BWPS, and when I first heard BWPS in 2004, I was in total awe. Just sat in the car and stered at the CD player while this amazing series of musical left turns unfolded. I'd never heard anything like it. At that point I probably would have said A++.

After hearing the original recordings and five years on, I'd now give BWPS an A-, simply because I prefer the feel of the originals in so many cases--the music just moves me more. I never heard the spook that others speak of, but the overall sound reminded me of Pet Sounds in terms of how the instruments were recorded--so I give the original Smile another vote for that sense of continuity with the Beach boys music that came before it.

That said, the sequencing on BWPS is just brilliant. All I had to hear was the sequence from Prayer into Heroes and Villains and I knew the album was going to be a thrill ride, and of course it was.

If Frank was never paid or signed away his rights doesn't he hold some sort of artist's copyright? Or did I misunderstand the question?

I had assumed that he was paid, and that The Beach Boys owned the rights to the artwork. I didn't understand how, if they owned it, Frank would be able to sell it. However, to my surprise, he was never paid anything. Hence, he's the sole owner of the work, and able to sell it.

I guess Frank must have something worked out with Capitol, because even though he has the rights to the artwork, Capitol owns the copyright to their logo on the front cover.

For fun, I've wanted to make a real "earthy" earth segment by putting the "Swedish Frog" vocals over the fade to Vegetables music. 

Carl's voice doesn't fit Surf's Up for me.  my definite version is the 04 and PC versions.  Carl's just sounds weird did brian comes in, then i relax

Agreed. I love Carl's voice, but my favorite version is a homegrown sync-up of Brian's original 1966 vocal and piano to the 1966 instrumental track, ending with the 1971 coda. The history of the song is as compelling as the song itself, and having Brian sing lead through the whole thing just makes sense.

[COMMENT: Well, if you had read my book, Recording The Beach Boys, you would find on page 44 a detailed recollection of that part of the sessions for Surfs Up and the story of how BRIAN added the Children's Song line to the end of the song.]

yup. I asked Stephen D. awhile back about this and he said it was Brian:

Hi Stephen,
Sorry if you've answered this before, but who sang the "A Children's Song" lyric at the end of Surf's Up in 1971? I've always assumed it was Brian. Badman's book mentions he arranged the final part, but doesn't say whether he actually sang that tag.

Thanks!

COMMENT:  Well, if you had read my book, Recording The Beach Boys, you would find on page 44 a detailed recollection of that part of the sessions for Surfs Up and the story of how BRIAN added the Children's Song line to the end of the song.  ~swd

My favorite is probably the bridge on Look with the French horn that starts at about 0:50 into the song. One of the most majestic things I've ever heard.

Agreed about Cabinessence, and it is a close second on my list. Very cinematic.

Here's my mix:

(Prayer)
Heroes and Villains
Do You Like Worms
I'm In Great Shape (+Barnyard/I Wanna be Around/Friday Night)
The Old Master Painter (+Sunshine/Barnshine)
Cabin Essence
Wonderful

Good Vibrations
Vega-Tables
Wind Chimes
The Elements (Fire/Water Chant/Dada)
Child Is Father Of The Man
Surf's Up

I'm wondering if this is close to how it might've come out in late '66/early '67, with a Side A and a Side B, of course. Meade had a very similar setlist in a previous post, too....

Thank you for your comment. That's kind of what I was aiming for. As per Brian's sequence on BWPS, I mostly put the Americana stuff on side one, and Wonderful seemed to work pretty well in that context, and also seemed to segue into Good Vibrations on the second side-- both songs have a sense of innocence. The second side gets progressively "heavier" moving toward the end. I really like having Child is Father to the Man right before Surf's Up on side 2 since they deal with aging and mortality.

Here's my mix:

(Prayer)
Heroes and Villains
Do You Like Worms
I'm In Great Shape (+Barnyard/I Wanna be Around/Friday Night)
The Old Master Painter (+Sunshine/Barnshine)
Cabin Essence
Wonderful

Good Vibrations
Vega-Tables
Wind Chimes
The Elements (Fire/Water Chant/Dada)
Child Is Father Of The Man
Surf's Up

You could add Brian's Smog commentary as well.  

Pretty funny, Jann Wenner even blew it when he assumed back in late '67 that Smiley Smile was the sum of Brians efforts after Good Vibrations.