The more i listen to it the more i like the 2017 version.

You must have access to better weed than I do.

C'mon, I think everybody is missing the obvious. The *2018* version is going to be the one to watch for. That one's just going to have Bruce on the lead and the guy from Smash Mouth, and maybe Urkel. Strangely though, it will still feature Mike on the cover, this time wearing a "Bruce Johnston" cap.....

HA (sniff).

Really hope they're not laughing, it's not remotely amusing. I like the cut of the jib of this thread. It either is or isn't a big deal, not both, those who are acknowledging the points but minimizing it in the next breath are missing the point.

I actually started commenting in this thread after just hearing and being appalled by the performance, wasn't even aware that it is being released as a Love solo effort, is that really true? That makes it even worse, much worse. It's of some merit that he is keeping the music alive in performance by touring it, but the original is enough and needs no augmentation. Sorry but he is quite simply a shameless, money-grubbing pig as far as I'm concerned , and along with the repulsively self-serving spin he tried to put on the events of the past in his recent autobiography this is the final straw for me. He was an integral part of the band's success but now he is no less than a cancer on the Beach Boy name and legacy.

I guess where we differ is the idea of whether or not it's a truly disgraceful embarrassment or not.  And if you *don't* think it's a disgraceful embarrassment to both him and the brand, I'd like to know specifically what type of BBs or Mike release would qualify as such for you.

What would it take, if not this?  Honestly.  

Still waiting for kreen's reply on this...  

But the new DIA is such a low-key, barely-released-at-all single that it can have no impact on the brand. What it would take for me to be angry is if ML personally blocked something like ST from release -- and he didn't do that.

Taken from one perspective yes, this isolated release will have "no impact on the brand" as many here have said, basically because it's already in the toilet (leaving aside Brian's tours), at least as far as modern-day iterations, lawsuits, classless infighting etc.

From another larger view, each smarmy ill-conceived step DOES make a difference, and is a missed opportunity to turn perceptions around, again using the example of how monumental C50 was just on the cusp of becoming when the plug was pulled, Madison Square Garden beckoning etc. Seen in that light, which is the more meaningful light IMO, DIA is more consequential.

Nice one JK.

Good points about the timing, reminds me of John & Paul jockeying to see who would announce first that they had left the Beatles (or rather John holding off his announcement out of consideration for the others and Paul smugly taking advantage to make himself look good). Or even more, Capitol releasing their Best Of package so soon after Per Sounds. Just typically atrocious taste, 4th of July or no, but Mike never thinks about these things.

I swear I'm not a gratuitous ML basher, and I understand the matter-of-fact acceptance of the negligible impact of this on the casual fans, but seen from a larger perspective this kind of cheapening is truly an outrage IMO and we should be less jaded and more indignant about it. Not to sidetrack unduly, as HeyJude says, the Mike-instigated C50 implosion is underplayed, and is a perfect example. Whether Melinda's methods and minions were cramping his streamlined style, despite his fronting the band earning him some leeway, as long as something obviously special like that was going down, Madison Square Garden and larger, more comprehensive band image rehabilitation beckoning, he d--n well owed it to his cousin (and himself, even if he couldn't see it, but of course he's entitled to his own priorities) to suck it up and go for a rare chance at yet another brass ring. He also owed it to the band;s legacy, and yes, the serious fans, who have supported them through all these years and would have been immensely gratified to see a huge mainstream commercial (and critical, though that was already underway) resurrection.

How many major elder statesman outfits with their mainstream potential (not counting the B act circuit) do you see selling out to this degree? NONE that I can think of! It's an absolute disgrace and, like the current presidency, rather than lapse into apathy, people who care about this band, its music and its image and legacy should stay passionate and bear witness to Love's ultimate sellout, no matter how much it hurts. Yes, there is a carefree, fun aspect to it all which, if the diminishment of the personnel and musical content and overall cheesiness of the presentation wasn't occurring would be tolerable and even wonderful, but with Stamos, McGrath etc. Dennis and Carl would have reached a new level of disgust, were they alive to see it.

What does Mike want?  I could give a sh*t.  I know what I want.  I want Mike to just  f*** off.  Now.

+1! Although I also give him credit for many of his long-ago vocals and some of the co-songwriting. He is WAY beyond tiresome now.

Hopefully before I die there will be 180 gram vinyl releases of Country Love, First Love, and LBWL. I can't wait to play Wrinkles so loudly that no burgler will ever come near my home.

HA!

Want to add the "I've Got A Friend" instrumental track to the list of (hopefully) likely candidates, one of the best unheard things out there. AND the supposedly magnificent rehearsals for the abortive DW POB solo tour.

That was the cringe=worthiest of the cringe-worthy.  The auto-tune is so blatant that it makes them sound like robots, not even human. I don't care if the music IS kept alive by appearances like this, it's GOT to stop. YECCCCHH!!!

the beach boys unleash sunshine tomorrow tomorrow


(I couldn't help it)

You'll only be able to use it once, ever.

There is of course the anecdote to the effect that Brian was angry because he felt that Mike "rushed" the vocal.

I was under the impression that Brian the dog-eared perfectionist was unhappy with his own vocals. Another illusion shattered.  

I thought it was the backing vocals that he was unhappy with and had them redo repeatedly to get the timing/rhythm right?

You may be right, I hadn't heard that version. It makes more sense though because they would seem to have been harder to dial in.

California Girls features one of Mike's definitive lead vocals.

Though, I wouldnt mind Brian handing it off to Al in concert.  Though, with the song being the opener, it would be odd for Brian to not sing it.

There is of course the anecdote to the effect that Brian was angry because he felt that Mike "rushed" the vocal. Don't remember the origin and it is a fine performance IMO but there are a few moments when it seems to me that he may have had a point.

That was a kind gesture to the developmentally disabled fan, and it is cool that he sang the magnificent Good Timin' at the first concert you went to. I know it's been said many times before and I have no desire to gratuitously beat a dead horse, but I'll just add my 2 cents and say that IMO it's an utter abomination and travesty that he should ever appear onstage with any incarnation of the "Beach Boys", just as it's an unspeakable atrocity that Donald Trump should have ever gotten anywhere near the Presidency. Flame away....

First of all, if anyone thinks hardcore *Beach Boys* fans are the worst, then they haven't dabbled in the "hardcore" fan base of very many areas. The most obsessive, weird, missing-the-forest-for-the-trees, has-twenty-sealed-copies-of-an-album-they've-never-actually-heard Beach Boys fan pales in comparison to how bad it gets in other fields of interest.

There are a lot of things I don't like about BB fandom skewing older (compared to bringing on younger fans of, say, the Beatles, etc., and yes, I know there are plenty of young BB fans, which is great), but one good thing is that BB fandom has almost completely avoided the type of flamers and trolls who consider themselves "fans" of something online, the people who post endlessly on reddit and "4chan" and all of that.

Setting that aside, I'd say bringing up the Mike/Redwood stuff four days after the conversation died down here is kind of re-introducing the turd to the punch bowl after the bowl was empty and run through the dishwasher.

In the interest of talking about this amazing "Sunshine Tomorrow" set, let's get back to ideas of introducing some teaser for the set to YouTube and the like. What does everyone think? Would it be better to push one of the better, more recognizable songs via a stereo remix, or would it be better to push one of the outtakes? I'd say a kick-ass stereo remix of "Wild Honey" or "Darlin'" or "Here Comes the Night" might be a good way to get *new* ears on this stuff, to indeed look at this as the "Holy s**t! This is what they did after "Smile", and it's different but kinda just as good!" release.
 

I hope you weren't referring to my "bringing it up" as was quoted in the post that you are in part replying to. I didn't notice the date of the original post standing up for the potential relevance of the subject, and upon review it looks like although it was indeed a couple of days before I defended it, I wasn't part of the conversation at that time and just interjected on an impulse when I felt compelled to.

"Absolutely, this incident was yet another among many examples of appalling behavior by Mike Love that deserve to be discussed to whatever degree anyone finds them interesting no matter how long ago they took place, an absurd criteria. I have a balanced view of the man and IMO the reactionary, hypersensitive recent support of him is just as onerous as the knee-jerk bashing he routinely receives".

I too have a balanced view of Mike, I believe.  He, like most of us, is far from perfect.  Just as Brian is far from perfect.

But when someone is constantly under attack, is it not a bit unfair to condemn some for simply defending that person?  I guess you can call anything reactionary.  I guess if you saw someone mugging a pedestrian on the street and called the cops someone could call you reactionary and hypersensitive.

No, the onus of poor behavior is upon those who instigate it.  Some criticism of Mike is fine....to keep going over the same plowed over fields ad nauseam just seems to be motivated by malice.

The endless repetition of ancient purported behavior by the Mike bashers appears to be simply a case of them being malicious.  It would be as galling as me bringing up that Brian was a poor father to Carnie and Wendy over and over, or mentioning that Brian was a drug addict over and over.  Which I don't do nor would I do.  We basically on this board are all acquainted with the character and behavioral faults of the various group members at various times in their history.

Besides what is the point...it is not like bashing Mike over the Redwood incident is going to change history.  And ancient history at that!

It appears that the principals involved with this new release all seem to be on board and pushing in the same direction and even are perhaps, gasp, getting along together to a certain degree....given that, one wonders why some in the fan base want to needlessly put a turd in the punch bowl though.

I wonder how many of these folks constantly throw up things like this to their own friends and family members?  I would hate to be with someone who constantly brought up my perceived or real imperfections or mistakes that I may have made 25 years ago or even 25 days ago.

In the liner notes of the new release, Brian apparently credits Mike with being an inspiration for Smiley Smile.  Well, oh hell, the Mike haters can't stand for that.  Heaven forbid that something said even by Brian should be allowed to stand on its own as a nice thing to say about Mike.

That is one thing about today's society though.  Anyone with a keyboard can be judge or jury of another person and apparently are more than happy to be so.

I would say such dysfunction will hurt future efforts to promote the group to new listeners, but I fear that battle has already been lost.  As a friend of mine said, "oh Beach Boys fans, the hard core ones....they're the worst!".
 

 
  
 

If you look at the post I was defending, it was one that was a reasonable response to a reactionary criticism of the subject of the Redwood incident being brought up, as if by "getting over it" the poster meant that it was now irrelevant and should never be brought up again under any circumstances, no matter how germane it might be or how much it might shed light or provide perspective on band dynamics, which is simply silly.

I wasn't condemning anyone for defending Love, I was questioning the summary dismissal and invalidation of the subject in general, as having taken place so long ago that no one should ever discuss it or think about it any more. I would also suggest that your name here is not indicative of impartiality with regard to Love, although it may be merely a coincidence.  I too am extremely excited about the impending project's release but I don't think that an obligatory, conformist peer pressure not to deviate whatsoever from the positivity program is in anyone's best interests, although it's unfortunate that this subject has arisen in a thread devoted to expressions of anticipation and appreciation for the bright future that now seems to await the prospects for further archival releases. I doubt whether the prospects for attracting new fans to the group are materially affected by any dissection of intra-band dynamics, those would have to be shallow potential devotees indeed. Mr. Love himself has already said and done plenty of things through the years to repel converts to the music, which is after all the thing that will hopefully resonate with discerning folks who have their ears and hearts open.

I would add that you have used YOUR keyboard to throw shade in my direction, in a rather passive-aggressive manner which I find somewhat annoying.

BTW, "turd in the punch bowl", vivid and descriptive as it may be, is a truly nauseating metaphor that I would strongly advise you to consider eliminating from your repertoire of cliches.

Well, you know sometimes you just gotta let stuff go.  The "Redwood Incident" happened 50 years ago!  Fifty years ago people.  (damn some of us are getting old!).  And its not like it was the Kennedy assassination to start with....

Or it's just a piece of band history relevant to this release. I mean, I understand this incident is rather inconvenient for some fans who can't seem to live with Mike getting a little flack for his past actions. For the rest of us, it's a moment that certainly shaped and defined what Wild Honey turned into...and considering this is a messageboard whose sole purpose is to discuss such things, I don't see why such discussions are sensitive to some here.

Sure, when I first listen to this amazing set I'm not going to be thinking about band politics/scuffles...and I know I will enjoy the music...we certainly all will. But that doesn't mean we can't discuss relevant topics (such as song credits or a studio incident that helped bring an amazing song to this album) just because they happened 50 years ago, because they are supposedly negative, or because some here are a little sensitive to these topics.

Thank you Guitarfool for writing some great posts above. Spot on.

Absolutely, this incident was yet another among many examples of appalling behavior by Mike Love that deserve to be discussed to whatever degree anyone finds them interesting no matter how long ago they took place, an absurd criteria. I have a balanced view of the man and IMO the reactionary, hypersensitive recent support of him is just as onerous as the knee-jerk bashing he routinely receives.

Wow this is exciting! One question though-

Is there anything here which is truly unreleased? Have all these tracks featured on bootlegs in the past?

They're not using the "previously unreleased" designation on this set, perhaps because there's such a wealth of it that it might start to  seem redundant.

Has this Carl vocal for SOS ever been offered to BRI to use for release? I would have to imagine if BRI had a tape of that version in the vaults, it would have been included on "Made in California."

COMMENT to HeyJude:  You've got it backward. Ever since it was recorded, Carl sang the lead. That's how the song existed and how we all lived and heard it for months or even years, until it was re-visited after their return from the Netherlands. I have no idea if BRI kept the original track with Carl singing lead or just replaced the lead track for release. First time I heard it was when I got my copy of Holland. For me, I always knew the song with Carl's lead.  But everyone else knows the song with Blondie's lead.  It's like Til I Die. I was there from day one and onward as the song was developed right up until the day Carl and I were going to make the final mix. Then Brian charged into the Control Room and insisted on recording a new lyric -- the one you now hear. There were no tracks left to preserve the original words he sang which I, frankly, thought were better, but that's how it goes sometimes. I mean we lived with those old lyrics for months and months -- then they were gone. As I've always said, I've erased more Beach Boy vocals then you've ever heard.  ~swd

I wasn't speaking at all to the history of the song. I'm just looking at the most basic aspect of what exists, what has been released, and what *could* be released:

We have presently the released version with Blondie singing, and you've mentioned there exists a tape of a version with Carl singing. I sense perhaps BRI would have released such an intriguing track on previous archival releases if they had the tape. So I'm just curious, in the event that a tape with Carl's lead doesn't exist in BRI's vaults, if they have contacted you about using your tape, and/or if you have contacted them to let them know you have the tape.

From the fan perspective, having a vintage recording of Carl singing "Sail on Sailor" is, loosely, analogous to finding a tape of Lennon and McCartney singing the lead to "With a Little Help From My Friends", or finding a tape of Dennis singing "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times", or Brian singing "Guess I'm Dumb", etc.

COMMENT to HeyJude:  The reason I said that you had it backward is that SOS was originally sung by Carl. I just played my copy. It's part of a collection of acappella versions of songs I made for a mixing study. I was a road mixer too. But McCantney wasn't the original lead on WALHFMF. (was he?). If you found a recording as you said, it would be after the fact. Carl's original lead is before the fact. See???  It's backward. The order is reversed. And I meant that as a comment on the situation, not a judgement of your comment.  Having engineered SOS with Carl singing lead, I always heard the song that way . . . then when it comes out, Blondie is singing the lead. This is, for me, kind of a mind fu-k. To everyone else it's normal, but for me Carl's lead is normal and Blondie's lead is irregular. That's all I was saying.  I have no control over what BRI releases or chooses to not release. Maybe they have SOS with Carl's lead, but feel it would confuse or take away from Blondie's version -- I've heard that excuse before. Back to the original song-topic WIBNTLA. Same thing there. What was released is not way Dennis and I heard the song when he was developing it. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's not the same way -- but there is no guide since Dennis is gone and BRI never contacts me for my opinion. However if you stay tuned long enough, you can read about this in the second part of my book when it finally gets published.  ~swd

Hi Stephen. As HJ asked, have you ever considered informing BRI that you have possibly the only extant recording of the original version, and offering it to them for potential inclusion on a future anthology (subject to band approval of course)? Perhaps you wouldn't feel comfortable doing so, or would want to be approached by them first.

No one has really mentioned Blondie in this thread.  I'd love to meet him.  He seems like a really cool guy.

A friend of mine had a brief encounter with Blondie after a show last year.  He told Blondie he was a big fan and asked if he could get a picture with him.  I won't repeat Blondie's reply verbatim due to some lewd terminology and I'm not sure what the rules are here in that regard, but he said that Blondie said no because he was trying to, ummm....we'll say, find a lady to spend some "quality" time with.  Obviously, I wasn't there, but I doubt that my friend would make that up.

This is in line with the Blondie I met once. Not surprised.

Sounds about right. The only time I met Blondie was also by mistake hanging around the buses trying to meet Al and Brian (too late for Brian). Blondie had already found his umm..."Wild Honey" for the night as she was hanging on his arm...and not much bigger than his arm. It was also obvious he had been treating himself to some of those funny looking cigarettes as I think I nearly got a contact high off his odor...nonetheless, he was kind enough to sign my ticket stub and chat with the half dozen or so of us that were there, I made a point to tell him how much "Wild Honey" kicks ass in this set and he gargled out something like "Yeah man...it's CRAZY!" and he stared right in to my eyes and widened his like an owl and for a split second I feared for my life....true rock and roll through and through. 

Highly amusing, reminds me of a friend telling me about a chance encounter with Dennis in the late '70s. My friend (a huge fan) said "Hey Dennis, how are you? Watcha been doin'? "BEEN DRUMMIN'!" he bellowed, looking completely wild & crazed. Poor Denny, I hope he was at least having a good time on that particular day.

Also met John Stamos once in the hotel bar after a 2001 Pet Sounds Symphonic Tour stop at San Diego Yacht Harbor. I was morbidly fascinated and approached  him, mentioning that I was a friend of Alan Boyd's (he was working on one of the TV miniseries at the time and they were in contact) upon which he grinned an ingratiating, shark-like grin with dazzling, perfect  teeth and scrutinized me super-closely as if to say "how can this person be of use to me?" for  few seconds of conversation, until he apparently was satisfied that I was unimportant and went elsewhere.

I thought it was utterly majestic and not a letdown by any means when it finally saw release (and still think so), I'll never forget that day. Now if we can only get our hands on the I've Got A Friend instrumental track....

Rieley was prone to spinning the occasional yarn it seems, such as it was he who thought of SU cover concept, despite the fact that Ed Thrasher saw the image hanging in his fathers study at the time (or somewhere to that effect)... and then there was the Pulitzer Prize story...

COMMENT:   Let me just add . . .    Carl and Jack may have worked on this and that, but the "together" part was from the necessity of the situation, not out of love or respect for each other.  Bruce was the first to see through Jack's deceptions and exaggerations, but Carl was soon to follow.

The resurrected image that eventually became the Surf's Up album cover was hanging in Brian's father's office when Brian was a child.

And we now know that Jack never received a Pulitzer Prize for anything, but that deception was not unmasked until late in his Beach Boy association.     ~swd

Hello Stephen, thanks for chiming in. Do you have any further recollections at all regarding this song and its provenance as a possible bone of contention between Dennis & Carl for inclusion on SU? I know you already expressed skepticism about that scenario, but Rieley, agenda or no, did seem to have pretty specific memories about it all. Hope you're doing well these days!

There are two versions of the narrative surrounding this track out there that seem irreconcileable on their face. I think it was the late Jack Rieley who told of how WIBNTLA and 4th of July were finally withdrawn from SU in a fit of pique from Dennis when the former was vetoed by Carl as the album closer. He told a very plausible tale of how there was rampant jealousy of DW's stellar work within the band at that time, etc.

But SWD gave an (at least) equally plausible account of how the track was recorded as a demo and casually put on the shelf for band consideration while Dennis went surfing, and he was very skeptical of whether it was ever even seen by the others, much less became a bone of contention for the final album lineup, as most of the material that Dennis left lying around while he went off to do other things was never utilized, and he has no memory of any internal squabbling over the tunes.

How do we reconcile these two very different versions of events? Desper was there and is very meticulous, but Rieley was very present also and may have had more knowledge of band politics, especially as it related to Carl, with whom he was especially close. The demo(s) may have taken a journey subsequent to its recording that Desper was unaware of. It's an interesting story to me, as  it may also be with others, both because of the potential that the album had to be a perfectly introspective piece of work, and to the extent that it might shed some light on the workings of the group at that time. We'll probably simply never know, since SWD has already given a complete accounting of the story to the best of his recollection, for which I am thankful.

Any additional insight or memories, Steve?

Thanks JK, I had found that piece in my search, but either in incomplete form or somehow didn't read it all the way through. A lot of great background there. Alan Boyd has said that there is a lot of very good Poops/Hubba Hubba material in the archives, and the POB tour rehearsals were tentatively planned for release after the Legacy POB/Bambu, but when it was more successful than anticipated that project was unfortunately indefinitely shelved. Those rehearsals (and the Dennis/Dragon fragments in the vaults) are amazing from all accounts and to me constitute two of the most, if not THE most, compelling potential BB -related releases that will hopefully come to fruition someday. PLEASE!!

Only in the universe of BB plans and politics could a release being *more* successful than anticipated ultimately lead to a follow-up release *not* happening.

Howie in one of his earlier posts touched on something that hadn't specifically struck me: It has been a decade of nothing as far as Dennis solo is concerned. Yes, we've had some archival bits here and there on BB releases. But jeez, the POB reissue did so well, why didn't somebody concoct *something* else to put out on the market in the last decade? I dunno, maybe the Sony/Guercio stuff is still bogged down in a ownership/control issues or something. They still should be working *that* out, but in the meantime BRI could have done their own thing with Dennis material.

Wonder if a *decade* later there would still be any buzz putting out that Brian May version of "Holy Man." I'm surprised they haven't reissued POB with that as one single new bonus track as a cash grab if nothing else.

Is is certainly counterintuitive that rather than increasing incentive for further releases, the success of POB Legacy decreased the momentum behind the POB rehearsals project. Unfortunately, I can't remember the specifics behind the decision, whether they felt the marketplace was saturated with DW product for the time being (no longer applicable), enough profit was realized to put the urgency of further releases on the back burner, or what.

Thanks JK, I had found that piece in my search, but either in incomplete form or somehow didn't read it all the way through. A lot of great background there. Alan Boyd has said that there is a lot of very good Poops/Hubba Hubba material in the archives, and the POB tour rehearsals were tentatively planned for release after the Legacy POB/Bambu, but when it was more successful than anticipated that project was unfortunately indefinitely shelved. Those rehearsals (and the Dennis/Dragon fragments in the vaults) are amazing from all accounts and to me constitute two of the most, if not THE most, compelling potential BB -related releases that will hopefully come to fruition someday. PLEASE!!

For what it's worth, I like the photo (for this specific album at least, it fits) and the font. What is "Dreamer: The Making of POB" by Ken Sharp, liner notes author? Checked amazon and book sites-nothing.

Although my question about "Columnated ruins domino" wasn't included on "An audience with..." (I managed to ask a question to Ringo a couple of years back) the article is way much, much more interesting than your typical Mike Love interview.

Sample:

Few artists have been
bootlegged like The Beach
Boys. Are there plans to put out
any of theSunflower sessions,
or theLandlockedor the
Adult/Childrecordings?
ZoranTuckar,Zagreb,Croatia
I have fond memories of the things
we did onSunflower. But the company
that owns our masters, they’re always
looking for ways to put out editions, so
who knows? Sure, any well-known group
had a core of people absorbed in knowing
everything about everything. The people
into the archival things, they know which
songs were recorded by the guys in the
band and which ones were recorded by the
Wrecking Crew, and so on. There’s a lot of
lore and history and technicality involved

edit: of course, he must know that all these recordings he's asked for are property of BRI, not Capitol.....

Mike has, by his own words, never been terribly interested in the intricacies of reissues and archival releases. You can go all the way back to his feisty 1992 Goldmine interview where he professes ignorance as to what's going on with the BBs back catalog releases, and the interview laughs and Mike seems kind of annoyed that the interview is amused that Mike doesn't know this stuff.

All we can hope for is that better management at BRI get some good archival projects going, and hopefully they can just put the thing under Mike's nose and get him to sign off on it and then Mike doesn't have to be involved any further.

From what I understand, he was actually wuite involved in song selection for MIC, and even went to great lengths to ensure the inclusion of as much of Dennis' work as possible. Perhaps he feels guilty about his treatment of and statements about that "no-talent parasite."

klay wasn't/isn't the only person who had/has these.

WHHAAAAT?!? That's the first I've heard of THAT. I'd heard that they'd been played for Jon Stebbins and maybe a few others for verification purposes, and perhaps given to Alan Boyd for archival reasons, but nothing more.