Not excited about another album ghostwritten and produced by Joe Thomas, which this will probably be

Joe Thomas is not talented enough to have ghostwritten the Brian songs on TWGMTR. I think that is quite plain. Now as for produced.....

I want to add three points to this conversation:
1. Adult Child was submitted to and rejected by Warner Brothers. If they had accepted it, it would have come out, and there would have been three late 70s Brian dominated albums, instead of two.
2. Carl and Dennis did not want 15 Big Ones released as it was, and they were outvoted, three to two. My understanding is that this is not a metaphorical situation - there was a literal vote, and they lost. For good reason, Dennis and Carl wanted their own and Brian's excellent material on a more polished album, instead of the rough covers that came out.
3. People seem to seriously underestimate the seriousness of Brian's mental illness in the 60s, in my opinion. Yes, he managed to live a normal life into the early 70s, but during the Smile period he was hearing voices, suffering serious paranoia, and manic up and depressive down periods. These kinds of symptoms, and especially the voices, which Brian still struggles with to this day, to my understanding, can make just day to day life incredibly difficult. Without any kind of proper treatment, it's amazing how together Brian held it for so long, in my opinion.

Well, is there really any different between one's self and one's life? Or are both just different perspectives or manifestations of the same phenomena?

In other Wouldn't It Be Nice (to Live Again) observations - there are parts that remind me of steamboat, especially that assending and descending bass line (synth bass I think). Probably not concious, but just a cool instance of a similar feel making it into two Dennis songs, I think.

Nothing is exactly clear cut in the BB's history of picking tracks for their post '67 LP's, but I think its been stated here many times, and is fairly well accepted among people with what info is available that Dennis' tracks specifically recorded and submitted for Surf's Up were WIBNTLA and 4th of July. They had not been mixed and mastered, and they each had a little bit of polishing to be done, as with his Holland tracks Dennis probably would have left the clean-up to Carl, or would have done it in collaboration with Carl. These decisions on sequencing probably occurred while this work was being planned. I highly doubt Lady was considered, as it had already seen release as a European Dennis solo side.

Regarding DW's suggested sequence, from what I've been told he wanted WIBNTLA to follow Till I Die and to close the LP. I've also heard he suggested that Surf's Up be the album opener. I think its a good bet Feet or SDT would have been the ones to be left out if Carl and Dennis had reached a consensus. But again this is all very speculative, the route the BB's took to finalizing track inclusion, sequence and getting over the label approval hurdle is always one of those "depends on who you're talking to" kind of things, because a lot of people put in their two-cents, and the pattern of things being in constant flux was definitely the case once Brian wasn't taking responsibility for such choices anymore.

Thanks for the response, that's very helpful! I think Lady was listed as a song left off at the last minute in an older incarnation of the wikipedia article for Surf's Up, and that that is the source of the persistent rumor that it was almost included.

Dennis' whole reason for pulling his tracks off Surfs Up is a simple one, he wanted them heard in a certain context, if that wasn't going to be the case then he he didn't want them on there. He was over it in like two days, never held it against anybody...it was a cold calculated thing. He and Carl disagreed about the sequence of the LP, Carl won out, Dennis said OK but you don't get my tracks. Next. The thing that most grates on me is no one else in the band insisted his tracks stay, according to Reiley, and some others around the activity, they were jealous or envious of Dennis' talent, and were happy to see Dennis' work not on the LP for completely selfish reasons.

I just asked this in the "would Surf's Up have been the greatest" thread, but I want to ask again here since if anyone would know, it would be Jon I imagine: do we know exactly what songs Dennis expected to be on the album before he pulled them? And particularly, what is the evidence, or lack there of, of Lady being included? (It always seemed like a strange fit to me, personally.) I'm assuming Sound of Free wasn't under consideration, despite making it into many board member's alt. Surf's Up playlists - is this accurate?

Three more questions: Do we know anything about Dennis's preferred sequence, other than Wouldn't It Be Nice to Live Again going last? Did Dennis feel that the song Surf's Up shouldn't be included, either because he felt it was wrong to disrespect Brian's wishes, despite Brian's eventual decision to work on the tag? Or because he felt that band should be looking forward, and not backwards? Or did he just want his song last, and Surf's Up elsewhere on the album? And finally, do we have any evidence about whether or not Feet or Student Demonstration Time were replacements for the Dennis songs, or did the group just originally expect a longer album?

Any answers to any of these would be very appreciated if they exist! It can be so hard to sort out fact from well supported rumor from spurious rumor from opinions sometimes.

I think where the Beach Boys really lost their way, beginning, in my opinion, when Sunflower flopped, and continuing for the rest of their career, is that their string of failures get to them to the extent that they forgot an absolute cardinal rule - make the best album you can, and let the public follow. The whole semi-cynical idea of trying to create the illusion of Brian involvement to build publicity, plus all the petty internal power struggles, got in the way of putting out the best album they could. And once you stop working at your best, stop focusing first and foremost on the music, you're cutting off your nose to spite your face, because people can tell when you're not at your best; they smell blood. In my opinion, it's often easier for a lesser band to do well working at their very best than for a great band that's letting crap get in the way of the music, even if the great band's mediocre music is better than the lesser bands best work. People can just feel it. The fact that Carl or Brian or Al or Mike or Bruce didn't stand up and say: this song has to come out because it's frickin fantastic, because we want the best album we can make, is so sad. So sad, but not remotely surprising. 

Can someone elaborate on the root of the idea that Lady would have turned up on Surf's Up? Is there an interview or tape reel or some other bit of contemporaneous evidence? My recollection is that Sound of Free was never considered for Surf's Up, although it may have been for sunflower??? I can't remember...

Brian - 1964/65: I consider Don't Worry Baby, Hushabye, Warmth of the Syn, and other 1964 era ballads to be the peak of Brian's voice, with the streak extending into Please Let Me Wonder and Let Him Run Wild. Already by Pet Sounds, I think that Brian's voice has started to subtly change, becoming a little bit less youthful. Obviously it stay's spectacular well into the 70s, but I'm trying to pin point more specific highlights.

Carl - Obviously his voice was incredible his entire life, but I think it was at it's best in the early 90s. Carl's voice aged in an incredible way, becoming more mature and ever so slightly older, without losing any of it's raw beauty or expressiveness. Tragically, Carl was literally not given *any* good material to sing in this period, with the possible exception of his own "I Wish for You."

Mike - 68/70: Meant for You. Big Sur. All I Wanna Do. Weirdly enough, Mike did the least singing of his entire career with the beach boys during the time when his voice was best. And I do think the two facts are related: when he wasn't in "lead singer" mode, he sang more subtly, and thoughtfully.

Dennis - 1968-70: Without a doubt this was the period when Dennis's skill as a singer lined up most clearly with his voice not being a hoarse croak! I love Dennis's late 70s voice, but A Time to Live in Dreams is definitive evidence for me that this period is the winner.

Al - it's hard to make a distinction, since his voice basically hasn't changed for their entire career. I'm trying to judge the voice, and not the material, still, it's hard not to think that Al never again reached his iconic Help Me Ronda peak, so 1965.

My understanding is that a) a double album was very much within reach, and b) Dennis and Carl strenuously, strenuously objected to the release of 15 Big Ones as it was, that they were voted down literally in a band meeting 3 to 2, and that this was one of the major reasons that Dennis embarked on a solo career. I don't have solid sources though, it's just what I've gathered from the various things I've read.

As for the album itself, my fantasy tracklist has always been this:

A side:
Good Timin (this should have been the single. If a crappy cover of Rock and Roll music went to number 5, just imagine how well a beautiful, nostalgic ballad would have done.)
River Song
Had to Phone Ya
That Same Song (ideally with a bit more production courtesy Dennis and Carl)
Back Home
Susie Cincinnati
Everyones In Love With You (I've always liked this song)

B Side
It's Okay
Pacific Ocean Blues
California Feeling
Rainbows (also recorded during the 15 Big Ones Sessions)
Angel Come Home (apparently written and at least a basic track recorded in 1975)
Just Once in My Life (this oldies cover can stay
Holy Man (recorded 1975, obviously lyrics never finished, until recently! I imagine Carl singing this, and it is sublime in my mind)

Of course, in this scenario Pacific Ocean Blue doesn't happen, but Dennis comes out swinging as a major player in a beach boys creative revival, and so I think that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make, particularly since it might well have eased some of the solo career versus band tensions that, in my opinion, were a major contributer to dennis's downfall.

Also, I strongly suspect that had all of these Dennis songs been used by the Beach Boys, Carl would have sung at least half of them, if not more.

Also, I don't think that the above track list represents the best possible album the beach boys could have put out in 1976. I think it represents a realistic example of what Dennis and Carl were trying to accomplish. The first side is significantly weaker than the second side, because Carl and Dennis are throwing a bone to Mike and Brian, a la Surf's Up. I wouldn't include Susie Cincinnati, but I imagine that realistically, Al would have gotten his song on there as part of the process.

This song has a kind of loping, al jardine meody that reminds me a little of California Saga ... I think the song would work great with a sort of holland-style country-rock production. I also think it would sound great in a postcard style production - I hope Al rerecords it some time.

@BJL

1. The Brianista: Has several MUCH cheaper options if he only wants to explore the post-Smile stuff.
2. The hipster fan: Has several MUCH cheaper options if he only wants to explore the pre-Pet Sounds stuff.
3. The boomer: already has the hits.
4. The new fan: already has the hits.
5. The straight and narrow fan: already has the hits.
6. The Still Building the Collection Fan: will get the missing albums first.
7. The obsessive but non-completist: already has the hits.

So my point still stands: nobody who will buy MIC has any need for the hits being on it.

Oh, I agree. There’s no one in the world who is going to buy this box set who doesn’t already own a greatest hits collection, and there’s no reason for the hits to be repeated on this box. But the hits are 20 odd songs. My point was just that, for the average Beach Boys fan, this box offers them two discs worth of rarities and live tracks PLUS something else that they don’t have, and because of this, I think that the set will do well commercially, especially if the price comes down a hair or two. In my case, this is a bunch of stereo mixes which I will be very happy to have!

Also, I have no idea if AGD was mocking me or agreeing with me. Frankly, I wouldn’t be too surprised by either. But there’s a reason I usually lurk – this board has a mean streak a mile wide. Fortunately, it also has the best in depth discussion on the Beach Boys the internet can provide

. . . MIC was compiled with one single target audience in mind: the hardcore fans. Casual fans do not care about rarities and unreleased material, you don't need a song that was cut from an album if you don't even have that album. And nobody spends $100+ on a few CDs by a band that they just casually like. "John Q. Public" will be perfectly content with '50 Big Ones' and a copy of 'Pet Sounds', and if he's feeling really adventurous he might get 'The Smile Sessions' or a random 2fer on top of that, but that will be more than enough.

Capitol knows very well that 95% of everyone who will buy MIC are people who already have everything but still want more. They also know that The Beach Boys have such a big and messy discography that the serious completists have already spend hundreds or even thousands on their collections. . . . .

A lot of people on this board are completely clueless about what Beach Boys fandom actually looks like. Very, very few people are completists. Very, very few people read the Smiley Smile Message Board. You, with 12 different Smile bootlegs and a hard drive full of Sea of Tunes Sessions, are simply not the market for this box, nor are you representative of the set of people who will tell you that the Beach Boys are one of their favorite bands. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be stoked about all the rarities we are getting (I certainly am!). Nor does it mean that you can’t be disappointed or bummed. Bum away! But people who have been building their collections for years seem to have forgotten how incredibly large and massively intimidating the Beach Boys catalogue is, or how powerful strains of thought urged fans for years to write-off certain areas of it.

Some examples of the types of Beach Boys Fans this box is targeting:

1.   The Brianista: These fans haven’t really explored past Smile. Some of these fans can probably still be found lurking on the Blue board The Brianista definitely owns Pet Sounds, Smile and 2004 Smile, one or two, if not all, of Brian’s solo albums, a couple of greatest hits collections, the Today and Summer Days two-fer, and a variety of other early albums. For these fans, discs 3-6 of the new Box set are going to be full of revelations.

2.   The hipster fan: These young fans got into the Beach Boys via the Fleet Foxes or Animal Collective. They read pitchfork, and own Pet Sounds and Smile. They probably jumped straight from Pet Sounds to Sunflower, Surf’s Up, and Holland. This fan almost certainly owns the new Pacific Ocean Blue reissue, but most of the box will be new – especially disc 1!

3.   The Boomer: This baby boomer went to the 50th reunion tour, and has kept good care of the Beach Boys vinyl from their childhood. They own most of the earlier albums, at least seven greatest hits collections, and Pet Sounds. They may or may not own the Good Vibrations Box Set, but if they do, they probably haven’t listened to discs three and four since 1995. This box will be an eye opener, assuming they ever make it past disc 3! The live tracks will be a particular treat for a fan whose only live albums are the 64’ concert album and maybe the 50th anniversary tour album. 

4.   The new fan: self-explanatory. All they own is a Greatest hits and Pet Sounds, but Pet Sounds is growing increasingly captivating by the day. Where to go next? Made in California, duh! Yea it’s pricey, but not compared to the cost of assembling a full set of albums. Note also that the average greatest hits collection only has a bit over half of the Beach Boys 36 top-40 hits.

5.   The straight and narrow fan: This fan owns just about everything the Beach Boys have ever released, but has never listened to a bootleg. They may or may not be opposed to bootlegs, and they may not be super familiar with the internet. The box will be full of treats for these fans.

6.   The Still Building the Collection Fan: The Beach Boys have released a lot of albums. Even with two per disc, it’s easy to miss a few. I considered myself a huge Beach Boys fan for years before I bought Friends and 20/20, Carl and the Passions, Holland, 15 Big Ones, or Love You, let alone the 80s stuff. There’s just so much material to get through! Such a fan might own 15 different Beach Boys albums, and yet still be missing Surfer Girl and Shut Down vol. 2. Things happen. These fans will get a taste of what they’re missing.

7.   The obsessive but non-completist: I fall squarely into this category. I love the Beach Boys. I have tons of bootlegs. I read the Smiley Smile board and watch Stephen Desper’s amazing study videos. I own every released Beach Boys album on both CD and vinyl. I own the Smile Box, and all of Brian’s solo albums, and saw the 50th anniversary tour 4 times. But I’m just not a completist. Which means that I didn’t feel the compulsion to replace my two-fers with new stereo issues, or to buy Summer Love Songs for one rarity and some remixes. I certainly didn’t buy that ridiculous singles box with four songs on each of 28 CDs or whatever. For me, this box is full of stereo mixes that are entirely new to my collection!

Feel free to be disappointed, but I wouldn’t be so quick to attack Capital’s business plan, or to see this box as an attempt to fleece the Beach Boy’s hardcore fans. I think there is a very good market for this kind of set.

McCoy scored the strings on Be With Me, that was it. Dennis usually played string suggestions on the piano (or sang) his ideas for string lines to whomever was arranging/scoring the string orchestrations on his productions. Daryl Dragon is very adamant  about this in his interviews, that the string melodies were usually Dennis' own musical ideas, and BTW Jimmie Haskell did some of the string scoring job for Dennis on the Pacific Ocean Blue era material. I think Be With Me falls into the same routine that the subsequent stuff did, Dennis had a feel for what he wanted and did his best to translate that to his arranger, not having the ability to actually score charts for a string section on his own.

There' a great Bruce quote about the 20/20 string arrangements. I can't remember exactly, but the gist was that he and Dennis "talked those arrangements into his [McCoy's] head."

Bruce doesn't have it anymore. And Carl is dead. The high part--parts, even--are Jeff's.

The album TWGMTR has Bruce on some falsetto parts. And he usually did the high ending on "Fun, fun, fun" live (probably does the same when touring with Mike solo).

My understanding, based on some of the interviews, and on just listening, is that Bruce does most of the falsetto in the harmony stack on almost the entire record, with Foskett just below in Carl's old spot.

Honestly, this was absolutely amazing. Great!

Comparing Brian and Dennis's situation is misleading - Dennis was still very healthy, functional, and incredibly creative into the late 70s. And this voice changed so drastically because he was physically injured in the throat in a fight, and apparently declined to rest his voice and let it heal...

Brian's transformation is less easy to explain, but one of the reasons I'm drawn to the argument that the destruction of his clear voice was intentional is because the change was so drastic, so quick. And of course, you still hear the occasional clear voice into the late 70s. It's also hard to say for sure, because in the Landy era a series of strokes (at least, that's my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong) led to Brian singing ability to change drastically. Shouty 80s and 90s Brian is very different from hoarse 70s Brian - and it's impossible to say how fully Brian's voice would have recovered if not for the Landy period, but my guess it would have been dramatic.

Please re-read the article again.  I believe he was insinuating that he wrecked (or changed) his voice on purpose.  That's clearly my take after reading it anyway. Either it was done by accident (my belief) or on purpose (others belief). There's no gray area here.

Well, I did imply that he changed his voice in purpose. But I also think there's a whole huge lot of gray area.
The way I see it, we know the following almost for sure:
1. Brian had some degree of ambivalence towards his falsetto, although it's very difficult to say how strong it was.
2. Brian purposefully effected a more masculine, gruff voice in the mid-70s (on a song like Back Home, it is obvious that Brian is making a stylistic choice, although of course his voice has also changed drastically).
3. Brian's drug use was deeply self-destructive, regardless of whether he was hoping to do damage to his voice specifically or not.
4. At least some of the people close to Brian at the time seem to have held the opinion that he changed his voice intentionally.
5. If he didn't change his voice intentionally, he made little to no effort to protect it.

I don't think we'll ever be able to say 100 percent for sure that Brian destroyed his voice intentionally. But I think that it is as valid an interpretation of the evidence as that he didn't. I don't think the burden of proof falls on one side or the other - both positions are reasonable.

What I truly believe is that the answer is in fact the gray area. Being as Brian was both mentally ill and using huge quantities of drugs, both answers are true. Some of the time, Brian wished he could still sing like the old days, but his drug habits were quickly making that very difficult. Other days, Brian wanted to mangle his voice beyond recognition. Some days, Brian probably wanted both, contradictorily, at the same time. Some days he just wanted to disappear altogether.

But we'll never know for sure because only Brian was inside his own head, and because I doubt Brian himself could say for sure any more. 

Hi Smileysmile. I've written a long reflection over at my blog on the relationship between American drug policy and the Beach Boys. Doubt everyone here will agree, but I figure it'll give ya'll something to talk about besides a box set and a reunion tour, neither of which have generated any new developments in months and months  

http://orkinpod.wordpress.com/2013/03/27/the-beach-boys-the-war-on-drugs-and-the-heteroamerican-dream/

BWPS was modular except for Good Vibrations and his band played those tracks as well as the "wrecking crew" but whatever.

I thought BWPS wasn't modular, because the band recorded the tracks straight through start to finish. My understanding is that the term modular referred to tracking each section, a verse, chorus, tag, etc. of a single track separately, then editing them together to form songs. And I think the fact that BWPS wasn't recorded that way contributes to its different tone compared to the original (note - no value judgement intended, I love both! Just reflecting on how they were recorded).

Very, very cool! I definitely want to hear the whole album when it comes out! I love the synth solo in the middle, and the harmonies at the end particularly.

Hi everyone,

I've just released a new album, and want to share it with the smileysmile community.  It is very influenced by the smiley-smile through holland period, and I've been working on it for a long time - it is called The Loudest Sound. You can listen to it here.

http://orkinpod.bandcamp.com/

You can also download it for free - just click "Buy Now" and enter 0.00 dollars! Alternatively, you can pay any amount of money you want. But please, don't hesitate to download it for free. Above all I want my music to be listened to and to be shared. I would like it very, very much if it were to turn out that my music meant something to other people. Money is not an important part of this equation.

So please, listen. And I wish you all a beautiful and joyful 2013.

Thanks for the info - that's why I love this board 

From Brian Wilson's facebook page:

Listen to "Fantasy is Reality" from 1994, co-written by Brian, and performed by Brian, Carnie Wilson and bassist Rob Wasserman. Brian plays piano and organ on this one:

http://www.brianwilson.com/i-just-wasn-made-for-these-times

This is pretty cool, very Brian really - especially the ending!  Thoughts?  Anyone know anything about this? 

Looks like I'm the exception here - it's always been one of my very favorite Brian songs.  The melody is gorgeous, the string and horn arrangement is fantastic, and the whole song just transports me to another place and time. Let's Go Away for a While is a better song, but I prefer this for the same reason that I prefer Today to Pet Sounds - it just has an unbelievable honesty to it.

No, but it seems obvious to me that they are both much more comfortable in the scaled down half-assed version of The Beach Boys, and while I think Mike was happy to be back with Brian, I think he also realized he would rather have full control and just play the hits and not have to worry about compromise. I'm not a Mike hater by the way, but it was obvious from that Billboard interview he did from a view months ago, that as great as it is to have the group back in the public eye, I think it pains him to spend all this money on putting on these shows with Brian and whatnot, when he knows he can still sell as "The Beach Boys" without all the other guys and probably take home more money. I just don't see  a new album with the group happening if Mike and Bruce are gonna be touring as "The Beach Boys" all the time again. I mean, it'd be cool if once again Brian and co. laid down the tracks and whatnot and had the guys come in to work on stuff, but I just don't know if that's gonna happen in 2013.

I think you're coming to a falsely pessimistic conclusion - I don't think Mike is motivated first and foremost by money, I think he's just gotta be out on stage.  He's been doing it since he was a teenager and well, what else would he do?  Mike Love will be touring as the Beach Boys until he dies, because that's what Mike Love does.  Brian, on the other hand, likes vacations, resting, and working at his own pace.  I think we'll get another Beach Boys album; while Mike and Bruce are off touring, Brian will take a few months off, maybe write a few songs, think about going down to the studio once or twice maybe, and when he's got a new Beach Boys album worked out in a couple of years (and it will be a couple of years at least. Think about the gaps between Brian's solo albums, not to mention the fact that a normal release schedule for bands these days seems to be an album every few years) he'll call the guys and they'll get back together.  So yea, Mike and Bruce are going to go off touring, but I doubt any of them ever planned to jump right back into the studio as soon as the tour was over as if it was still 1965!  With patience, and a bit of luck, I think the boys may still have a lot to offer though, and I highly doubt that Mike would get in the way of a new album if Brian wants to do it.