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658439 Posts in 26360 Topics by 3742 Members - Latest Member: Soulful Old Man River May 27, 2020, 02:47:58 PM
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126  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Shawn Love Wilson on: January 23, 2011, 03:59:58 PM
There are stories that went around at the time... but they were all second hand, so I wouldn't vouch for the accuracy of any of them.

Interesting point, however: the paternity case that her mother brought against Mike was reportedly resolved with Mike paying child support until she was 18, at which point she was allowed to use his surname - although the actual ruling was that it was possible, but not proven, that Mike was indeed her father. But, when her birth was registered, it was as Shawn Marie Love.

Shawn Marie Love...was Shawn Love the daughter of Sharon Marie? 
127  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Charles Lloyd Interview on: January 21, 2011, 02:55:53 PM
Lets say, entirely hypothetically, that Charles Lloyd is playing a show at my university, and that given my contacts in the music dept., at the venue, etc., I might possibly be able to ask him a few questions about his time with the Beach Boys.  What kinds of things might people want to know or ask?  If you could ask Charles Lloyd one questions, what would it be? 

Also, have any Beach Boys researchers/biographers/fans interviewed him about his time with the Beach Boys?  Could anyone point me towards these kinds of things?  Lloyd was a relative outsider playing with the Beach Boys during some very interesting times in their career, and seems to have been on very good terms with both the Mike/Al "faction" and the Carl/Dennis "faction," so I feel like he might have some interesting insights.
128  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Mike Love wanted the Beach Boys to finish SMiLE on: January 21, 2011, 09:51:20 AM
I guess it really doesn't matter anymore what Brian may have thought about what belonged where in 1967. Because in 2003 or 2004 he decided the order of SMiLE and that is that. I know I made a thread about what everybody thinks would have been on there or whatever, but the facts are Brian "presented" us the album in '04 and he also said it is "finished". Whether or not any of us agree is not of any consequence. The artist behind the work said it is done, and released it. And thats that.
Absolutely the best post ever written about Smile or BWPS. High Five

Well, the unspoken assumption behind that post is that Smile was 100% a Brian Wilson album and 0% a Beach Boys album.  BWPS, wonderful though it is, is not a Beach Boys record, and therefore not a finished version of the 67 album so much as a re-imagination of it. 
129  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The legendary Labor Day weekend, 1961 on: December 12, 2010, 10:57:24 PM

This is probably the  Carl interview you're thinking of, done by Billy Hinsche in 1981, where Carl definitely calls it Hogan's:

Of course, AL, in this interview taken from Golmine mag(2000) adds some changes to  the Rental story once again( and some other "nice" changes to history:

"When our folks went to Mexico on business, we would take the food money they had left us and rent instruments from Hogan's House of Music on Hawthorne Boulevard."

This is probably insignificant, but Carl pretty clearly implied here that the folks went away more than once...  Otherwise he would have said "we took."  Obviously not hugely significant on its own, but could be another small support for the idea that there was more than one business trip. 
130  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE in $ on: November 27, 2010, 09:43:34 PM
I tried to figure out some very approximate cost estimates:

if we take the $1,685 worms session as average (rounded to 1,500) and further assume that, not counting Good Vibrations and Heroes and Villains, Brian worked on about 12 songs, with about four sessions per song, that comes to 72,000 dollars (just to pay the musicians). 

Good Vibrations was supposedly given a budget of 50,000 dollars (according to wikipedia).  If we assume Heroes and Villains had about an equal cost, that's 100,000 for the two singles, plus at least 72,000 for the rest of the tracks.

Adjusted for inflation, 172,000 1967 dollars is $1,093,042 in 2009 dollars. 

Add to that the cost of tape, studio time, etc. for the other tracks (presumably those costs were included in the 50,000 dollar good vibes estimate), the cost of designing and printing up thousands of record sleeves and booklets, the costs of the promotion they were doing, and you've gotta be looking at at least a few million 2009 dollars. 
131  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Things are Changing (for the better) on: November 03, 2010, 08:12:14 PM
I thought people might be interested in this interview (from 1984) I stumbled upon where the producer of Thing are Changing for the Better talks about the track.  I had always thought Phil had produced it, and that Brian had played piano on it, but it seems that neither is true.  What this interview with the songs actual producer makes clear though, at least in my head, was that the track which Phil famously kicked Brian off of as piano player can't have been the public service announcement, since Spector didn't have anything to do with it really, and must have been an actual attempt at Don't Hurt My Little Sister.  Oh the tapes that may or may not exist out there!! 

The relevant portion of the interview: 
What can you tell us about the public service song 'Things Are Changing'?

My goodness! My wife has been working for Dr Landy, who is Brian Wilson's shrink, and I've been telling her about this song that I wrote with Phillip and Brian, but I couldn't remember the title of it! Phillip originally started the song with Brian, but it was just a chorus or something, nothing to do with the lyrics. I made the track and produced one version, with Darlene, I believe.

From what's been said, Brian wrote a song called 'Don't Hurt My Little Sister'.

Yes, that's right.

Was that version ever recorded?

I don't know about that. I know it started out as a piece Brian had written and Phillip had worked on it with him. But then the government wanted this piece, so I took it and rewrote it and produced the track on it, which is very much a 'Spector' type of track.

In the studio, did you set up the instruments and the people the same way Phil did?

Oh, yes. He used about twenty rhythm. He used four keyboards, all playing the same thing. He used two or three bass players, all playing the same thing. Several rhythm guitars, all playing the same strum. It makes for such a huge 'Wall Of Sound'. Several drummers, several people playing tambourines! Just tambourines! The sound was mostly dependent on the right amount of echo blend, the right amount of doubling of instruments. But instead of doubling them like we do nowadays, playing them twice, because we only had three tracks in those days, we did it all at once.

How did you get the 'Things Are Changing' assignment?

Well, basically I was working with Phillip and he didn't want to deal with it. He kept saying, "You take the call, you talk to them". So finally, not only did I end up dealing with the government for him, I ended up producing the track and taking over the whole deal.

132  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Phil Spector on Brian Wilson on: October 11, 2010, 09:17:33 PM
Not an exact quote (don't have the doc around me right now): "Phil had these layered sounds... But it sounded angry. Phil's thing was anger. Brian's was love."

I don't think Spector's music was really about anger.  More a sense of desperation.  Also, "Do I Love You," in my opinion, is one of the most love-filled records I've ever heard.  The overall sound just seems infused with love.  And some of his ballads, like When I Saw You, are really very gentle.
133  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Dear Lord, no... on: October 07, 2010, 05:35:39 PM
John Stamos is also trying to get a BB episode or at least a song on Glee..

I don't like how the future is shaping up  Tongue

As probably one of the only people in the world who is obsessed with the Beach Boys and also watches Glee, this would actually not necessarily be a bad thing.  One of the subplots of Glee is often that they take music which has a certain reputation and seems "uncool" to the high school protagonists, and show how its relevant to their (and implicitly, the shows teenage viewers) lives.  I could easily imagine an episode of Glee along the lines of "you know how everyone thinks the Beach Boys are just fun in the sun...well actually they had intense and emotional lives" with some of the band's darker/more serious songs included. It could really bring a new generation to the Beach Boys.  Not to say they might just sing I Get Around or whatever, but its definitely possible, given the tone of the show, especially if Stamos is involved, since he actually is a big fan and must know the catalogue. 

just my two cents. 
134  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Your favorite/hardest BB song to sing on: October 06, 2010, 08:02:09 PM
I think Guess I'm Dumb is insanely hard to sing. Something about the way the melody fits over the chords, it sounds so amazing, but singing it is so hard.  I've often wondered to myself if Brian himself had trouble singing it to his satisfaction, and that that's why it didn't make it onto the second side of the Beach Boys Today. 
135  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian's improved voice on M.I.U. - mystery solved? on: September 25, 2010, 01:13:05 AM
I love Jack Rieley's lyrics.  They flow beautifully with Carl's voice; as mike's beard said, they don't look great on paper, but that's true of almost all wordy lyrics.  Even Dylan at his best often looks awkward on paper...visions of johanna comes to mind; song lyrics and poetry just aren't the same thing.  And I think the meaning definitely comes across in both songs.  In Long Promised Road the sense of how life can drag you down but you somehow find the will to keep going and even to succeed, and how that is powerful and beautiful, and also a little sad, because there's definitely a part of you that wants to give up. 

I think Trader, though, is one of the greatest songs ever written, music and lyrics.  Really. 
Here you have a band, which spent a good part of their career celebrating a vision of california which was very much a twist no the frontier myth in the United States, this idea of endless possibility, building a new life in california, a middle class expanding to include everybody, etc.  And part of what made their music so powerful was in celebrating this distinctly american ideal, they tapped into a universal joy and love, and also tapped into a deep sense of sorrow and longing, rooted in part in the fact that the american dream was and is a mirage in many ways.  And then you have this same band, a few years later, looking back at this myth, and saying, well, what were the costs, what does it mean that entire peoples were literally exterminated to make room for this ethic of progress and manifest destiny.  And the Beach Boys do a better job of confronting this question, as white people, as americans, than almost any one else I've ever heard.  In the first part of the song they tell the story with words, and as you listen to it the story propels along and you get in your head what happened, and all the questions it raises about colonialism and the cost of american expansionism etc. etc., and then there's a momentary pause, and Carl Wilson tries to answer those questions, and because they're such hard questions, and they don't have good answers, he answers them spiritually.  At this point the lyrics seek to matter, they stop telling a story and start going on about making it softly and finding reason to live, and there are these amazing harmonies and it just, makes the politics real, and tries to confront these issues spiritually in a way no other popular artist of the time, to my knowledge, ever did. 

In my opinion, if the Beach Boys reputation rested solely on this song and it was all they ever released, they would still be an incredibly important band, because of all the musicians who then and to this day have written about poverty and political issues, no one has succeeded they way they did at taking an incredibly difficult political topic, and confronting it musically so that the music actually tried to address the question, rather than the usual approach which was to graft political lyrics on ordinary songs. 

So yea, I think pretty highly of the Carl Wilson/Jack Rieley partnership. 
136  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: so what's the story on Gettin In Over My Head on: September 22, 2010, 08:41:11 PM
If anything, the piano coda for Layla sounds like something Dennis would do.

The piano coda to Layla was actually written by Derek and the Dominos drummer, Jim Gordon, who played percussion on Pet Sounds as a member of the wrecking crew!  Unfortunately, he came to a very sad end, murdered his mother, and is in an insane asylum now...

The Derek and the Dominos stuff is really driven as much by Duane Allman as by Clapton, he was the better guitarist in that band (hard as it is to imagine Clapton not being the best guitarist in his own band!) but if anything, there's more of a Phil Spector influence than a brian wilson one.  Although it is clearly a blues record, it has a really fat wall of sound sort of production that reminds me a little of All Things Must Pass...which makes perfect sense, since Derek and the Dominoes were a large part of the backing band on All Thing Must Pass earlier that very year, and so they had been working with fact, Spector produced their first single, Tell the Truth, which was released and then immediately pulled...they rerecorded it for the album. 

The Beach Boys connections are getting even more tenous now, but I believe Jim Gordon and Dominos bass Carl Radle also played on the Mad Dogs and Englishman Tour with Joe Cocker, which, if I've got my stories straight, means they may have shown up at one David Mark's house in Boston and caused quite a stir!! 

As for the rest of Clapton's stuff, I don't think that his 60s work was really overtly Wilson influenced, I think he just liked the records.  And his post Dominos work is pretty boring so far as I'm concerned...I don't know if it has a Beach Boys influence because I havn't listened to much of it, but he really lost his touch... 

On a related topic, I think it's really interesting how it seems many of the members of this board have non beach boys musical interests that are pretty weird and that they have delved pretty deeply into...someone, if I recall, collects rare ska records or something of that sort?  I know that I for a long time liked Duane Allman and the Allman Bros. almost as much as the Beach Boys (hence my knowledge about Derek and the Dominos) and that's really saying something! 

I also collect John Fahey records. 

137  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian's shouty vocals on: September 17, 2010, 04:13:02 PM
Another possible explanation for the "shoutyness" is that it was a way to hit notes.  Think about how narrow Dennis's range had gotten by the end of his life...he can't have had more than an octave.  I think Brian subjected his voice to similar abuse (minus the famous punch, I know), but insisted on hitting a wider range, which meant just pushing and pushing until a note came out...hence the shoutiness.  Although I also hear the change in phrasing someone mentioned.  I think Oh Lord is the best example of how soulful and really thoughtful and also spontaneous Brian's phrasing could be even when his voice was at its worst tonally, and by 85 thats all gone. 
138  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Wilsons video on: September 10, 2010, 11:49:09 PM
These seems to me like the last beach boys/brian related recording that actually could have been a hit at the time of its release!  It sounds so...90s...and at the same time so great!  imho
139  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Thread for various insignificant questions that don't deserve their own thread! on: September 10, 2010, 02:53:35 PM
Did Carl just STOP writing completely after 72 until 78ish? Dennis obviously didn't, but there seems to be no Carl tunes until he starts contributing boring pap for L.A/M.I.U era. Did Rieley staying in Holland put him off? Was he better at hiding his sessions from bootleggers? Did drink and drugs screw up his creativity?

"Angel Come Home" dates back to about 1976, but offhand, that's about the only title I know of that hails from the 72-78 period. Of course, 1976-78 wasn't the best period of his life...

Does this mean Angel Come Home was a contender for the "originals" disc of the double album version of what became 15 big ones?  Yet another tune to add to my alt. reality 15 big ones play list!!  (Man that could have been a good record!) 

Also, I seem to recall that in a number of interviews/press from the 15 big ones and just prior period, it is mentioned that Carl is "working on new material" or something along those lines.  I feel like Dennis mentions at some point that both he and carl have a bunch of songs, but that they're sort of holding back and trying to let brian take the reins.  I could be remembering wrong, of course, but I've always wondered what exactly Carl was working on during that period, and how it would have sounded....sadly perhaps, not all song writers commit every idea they have to tape the way Dennis and Brian sometimes seemed's totally possible that Carl wrote songs, kept them in the back of his head for a while, never demoed them, and then eventually forgot how they went.
140  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: BWRG 2nd week - #53. on: September 03, 2010, 08:23:01 AM
Honestly, I find this conversation a bit perplexing.  The idea that I, personally, went to the store last week and bought a new brian wilson album, and it was friggin awesome...well, that's about as much of a miracle as I can imagine!!  The idea that there is still, after 50 years, great NEW beach boys related music for me to get excited about, that's a miracle.  Of course no one bought it!!  People haven't been buying the Beach Boy's music in any serious, non-nostalgic sense since 1966.  I don't care that Sunflower hit 152 anymore than I care that Beach Boys Concert hit 1. 
141  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The Best of Brian-less Beach Boys album on: September 02, 2010, 08:39:51 PM
I don't want to start a war here, but I'd like to say, 'All This Is That' seems like a bit of a freak occasion, if we think that Brian had absolutely nothing to do with it. Not to say that Carl, Alan and Mike weren't capable of good stuff - but All This... stands apart IMO. 

I beg to differ...I think the thing that confuses people is that all this is that is often attributed strongly to mike and al, when really, to my ears, it is the logical successor to feel flows and long promised road, and has carl's fingerprints all over it!!  It certainly has more in common with feel flows or trader than with mess of help or funky pretty, which seem to represent brian's state of mind at the time - the four above mentioned carl wilson songs are in themselves a bit of a freak occurrence.  Carl's contributions elsewhere in the catalogue are often very good, but those four songs rise to an incredible level, and stand with the best music of the 70s, imho
142  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The Best of Brian-less Beach Boys album on: September 02, 2010, 08:35:27 PM
Brian does the ba-ba-bas on "Long Promised Road".
Are you sure? It doesn't sound anything like him to me.
It's in the David Marks/Stebbins book.

for some reason i thought this was marilyn?
143  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Latest interview with Mike (some reunion content) on: August 26, 2010, 07:51:42 PM
The best group is Brian's/ Mike's/ Al's. The most recurring and boring argument of this message board.

Can we just enjoy the three with out feeling the need to justify your choice please?  Thud

I actually absolutely love all three groups (although the mike and bruce show I saw suffered from a serious overdose of john stamos...but even that, based on the crowd reaction, I can understand and sympathize with).  I like to make a point of showing my support for Al's band because it seems like it is often left out when people talk about Brian's band vs. mike's band, when all three bands definitely belong in the conversation!! 
144  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Latest interview with Mike (some reunion content) on: August 26, 2010, 04:28:46 PM
Mike's band is fantastic. Brian's might be on the next level of quality but I have never seen Brian's band rock like Mike's.

but actually Al's band is better than both of them!  Especially in terms of actually sounding like the Beach Boys did (imho)
145  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brianism's Appreciation Thread on: August 25, 2010, 06:50:31 PM

I remembered it being about a male songwriter...could be wrong though.  As I recall AGD knows the identity of the person in question.

Either way though, absolutely hilarious!  This is an excellent thread, Brian is the unintentional king of one-liners.

I dont know about unintentional...I think brian knows he's funny!  I mean, he did at one point talk about doing whole albums of humor. 
146  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian's improved voice on M.I.U. - mystery solved? on: August 25, 2010, 05:16:08 PM
While we're on the subject of Holland's backing vocals, do we know who arranged them?  I've always thought steamboat had a very interesting vocal arrangement, which I assumed was Carl, but if Brian was there singing the falsetto might he have participated?  It seems he was often willing to lend a more active hand on Dennis's songs...  Do we know if he's in the mix on Trader, or was that pretty much all carl, because thats also a really cool vocal arrangement, I think.  I've always assumed he was the driving force behind funky pretty, but also that he wasn't really involved in anything else, but is that true?  Might he have had a hand in the california saga: california?  After all, he was there at least long enough to add the first line, might he have been guiding, or was it all carl at that point?  Finally, did Al participate in the california saga arrangements (do we know?)  and did Blondie and ricky help with the vocal arrangements and harmonies as arrangers?  I dunno, I think the process of that time period is really fascinating to me, because the whole band was involved and I'm always curious what exactly brian, carl's roles were, etc.  

Another question:  is Dennis's voice audible anywhere on Holland?  I know he flew off at some point, but I always thought it was odd he didn't sing either of his songs, since his voice was so great during that era (in my opinion).

Edit: person who asked where on Holland brian's falsetto is audible: listen really closely to Steamboat.  It sounds to me like there are places were it's just Brian by himself in the background doing his thing (over mike's bass bom bom boms).
147  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Musical references/quotations in BWRG on: August 11, 2010, 05:56:57 PM
I thought I'd get this one going, since there seem to be so many!!  Fair game, I figure, are references to Beach Boys songs, but also to Gershwin songs other than the one ostensibly being played (I'm fairly sure this happens at least once).  I'll start off with one I heard about on the board, and one I found for myself:

The end of I Got Rhythm pretty clearly references Farmer's Daughter. 

The background vocals during the solo on They Can't Take That Away From Me are a pretty clear reference to the Ronettes: Why Don't They Let Us Fall In Love.

What else can we find?
148  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Recording of BWRG - analog or digital? on: August 11, 2010, 05:47:04 PM
Vinyl sounds different from digital, even from the same mastertape.  Vinyl has the advantage over CD in warmth, "smoothness," soundstaging, presence, and the sense of "air" around the instruments and vocals (however, whether these qualities will be perceived at all will depend on how the master was recorded and engineered).  Digital has the advantage in resolution of detail and in dynamic range - bass no longer needs to be "rounded off" or "shaved" to prevent the stylus from jumping.  Good digital mastering (particularly with SACD or DVD-A) on a good CD player can come very close to matching analogue in the categories analogue does best and surpassing analogue on the detail and dynamic range fronts.

I agree on the digital front.  I think the real advantage of analog isn't that it's inherently better, but that often vinyl pressings are better (I should say different) because of the way they were mastered/pressed.  For example, the "wall of sound" style has gone out of fashion, and so a lot of beautifully remastered CDs of classic albums really change the feel, making it clearer, separating out the instruments a bit more, sort of thinning out and modernizing the sound.  I don't know how they do this, some records are just remastered, others remixed, refiddled, rethises and thated, but a good example of this is Bruce Springsteen's Born to Run.  The wall of soundness comes across much better on the vinyl.  As things are remastered to modern tastes, things that made a record special can get lost.

On the subject of USB drive in your turntable...if you don't end up getting this, you'll still be able to do a decent rip by running a $5 chord from your stereo to your computer input.  It won't sound great, but it'll do the job for an mp3 player, etc. 
149  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Recording of BWRG - analog or digital? on: August 10, 2010, 06:07:19 PM
I've got a question, I'm just curious, not trying to bust your balls.  Why all the digital/analog talk when you don't have anything analog to play it on? 

I think its definitely true that an Analog recording might sound warmer than a digital recording, even played on a CD (although if you're talking mp3s...old casettes from the 80s sound better than mp3s...)

That said, I think a lot of what people attribute to analog equipment, especially with the BBs, is really due to other factors, for example the tape decay/mellowing that occurs over time, and more significantly, Brian's method of recording, which involved lots and lots of instruments in a big room, as apposed to individual tracks layered on top of each other. 

And I bet that when those tapes were first played back in the studio in the 60s, before being pressed to vinyl or put in bins for 30 years, they sounded crystal clear!  This is just totally conjecture, of course, because I wasn't there. 
150  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson & Diane Rovell on: August 05, 2010, 07:55:31 PM
Bootlegs!!  Young people these days, no discretion!  No decency!  No respect for copyrights!  Why, I ought to write the Prime Minister!!  I would certainly appreciate a message like that... 
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