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658440 Posts in 26360 Topics by 3742 Members - Latest Member: Soulful Old Man River May 27, 2020, 03:42:01 PM
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101  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys Perform SMiLE Songs Live? on: April 21, 2011, 08:15:49 PM
Huh? What "doesn't count", Jay? You mean Surf's Up? Surf's Up was going to be on Smile - only things basically different in '71 was Carl's additional vocals and the tag. Otherwise, pretty much the same music and lyrics as Brian sang on the '67 Bernstein special. The '71 version of Surf's Up, along with the released versions of Cabinessence and Our Prayer, and I think Wonderful were included on early SMiLE bootlegs in the early 80's.

Ever heard the Beach Boys do Surf's Up live in the early 70's, Jay?

I think he meant that Child is the Father of the Man doesn't count, because these didn't really play the song, they just incorporated it into a different song. 
102  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys Perform SMiLE Songs Live? on: April 21, 2011, 05:58:26 PM
I would highly suggest that you run a google search on the phrase: "beach boys live at the paramount 1993."  I think you might be pleased with what you find ;-)
103  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Article blames fans for losing SMiLE tapes! on: April 10, 2011, 05:33:48 PM
I think that narrows it down a lot though.
I also think it suggests that Brian did in fact destroy some of the material. Prevailing wisdom has suggested that was always a myth. But there was a post by Alan Boyd a while back where he lamented how much material was missing, he wondered if there was some truth to that story. If the missing SMiLE material went missing before 1970, before much about SMiLE was even known among fans, and none of this material has ever been heard on bootlegs or by fans, that says something doesn't it.

This is pure speculation, but perhaps Brian "destroyed" tapes not by actively burning them or whatever, but by negligence.  It is clear that in the mid 60s tapes in general were in no way sacred, that studios threw out old tapes all the time, etc.  If Brian had been running the show for so long, and then suddenly he has disengaged, he might not bother to have tapes properly labeled, accounted for, picked up from studios, or whatever, allowing them to disappear?
104  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: \ on: April 06, 2011, 09:52:13 PM
Like I mentioned, I think his talent is probably related to his mental illness.  So yeah he may not have ever been as great as he is without the illness.  The proverbial double edged sword, so to speak. 

I used to think this, but the more I learn about Brian, the less I think this is true.  For one thing, he seemed to work best when he was happiest (and he says as much in interviews), and what really spurned him to creative heights was not the insecurity or pain of mental illness, but the more or less normal competitive spirit that motives, you know, baseball players and politicians and whatever.  He wanted to win, to prove himself, and he had the talent to do so in spectacular fashion.  Also, musical genius and mental illness don't have to go hand in hand.  Particularly in classical music, its clear that while you do have a handful of tortured geniuses, Bach and Mozart et. al. were not crazy, they were just insanely talented.  The thought of what a healthy Brian Wilson could have done in his 30s, 40s, and 50s is just, to me, haunting.  And the idea that his mental illness and his talent were linked seems more like something we want to be true than something that is true.  Obviously a very subjective subject, but those are my thoughts. 
105  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Denny -- The Group's Strongest Vocalist? on: April 06, 2011, 09:47:03 PM
I think so.  During the 70s, I think that's unquestionable.  Brian's a close second, with a few incredibly fascinating nutters -- but generally, always genuine.  Mike nailed a couple too -- and Carl quite a few.  But Dennis was just on.  He destroyed the mic whenever he was on it.

But in the 60s he was fantastic too.  He was used very intelligently, as they say in the movie business -- for a  "close up."  But he stepped up to the plate.  And especially as the group lost it's grip -- basically Brian -- Denny was right there.

I always wished they used him more!

I too wish Dennis sang more, but Carl...honestly, it's hard for me to imagine what a voice more beautiful than Carl Wilson's might sound like.  His voice was unreal. 
106  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Writing Smile article for school paper - need help on: April 06, 2011, 08:07:33 PM
As long as your image is unsuitable for commercial use, low-resolution (that is smaller than the actual album cover), and intended purely for educational/informational benefit of the reader, it falls under fair-use law and you can use it.  This applies to both album covers, which can be used to illustrate the recording in question,  and works of art, which can be used for educational purposes.  I'm not sure whether the smile art counts as an album cover or not, but in any event you can definitely include a picture of the smile artwork.  What you can't do is print a giant copy on the front of your paper and use it to sell newspapers.  Similar fair use rules probably allow you to use old promotional photos of the band as well, however, I'm not as sure about the law in that case.  An interesting way of learning about copyright law in these kinds of situations is to go to a wikipedia page, for example that of The Beach Boys, click on an image, and then below the image there will be an explanation of why wikipedia can use that image, including justification for fair use, etc., if the image is copyrighted.  
107  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Redwood- tell everything you know! on: April 05, 2011, 09:45:11 PM
Because its based on Thinking About You Baby which was co-written with Mike Love. Perhaps.

That's what I was thinking.  Also, just to clarify, I am not trying to denigrate Mike, I think he's a fantastic lyricist and fully deserves probably more credit than he's gotten for his lyrical and musical contributions to the band.  It just seems odd in this particular case that Brian would offer an outside group not just one of his best songs, but a song recently co-written with someone else in the Beach Boys - an idea lent some credence perhaps by the fact that he wrote time to get alone by himself, and apparently called on Van Dyke Parks for another potential Red Wood song.
108  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Redwood- tell everything you know! on: April 05, 2011, 07:56:57 PM
Perhaps Brian wrote all the lyrics to "Darlin'" himself and gave Mike credit since they had written "Thinkin' About My Baby" together. Or, Brian came up with the new chorus and Mike wrote the new verses. This could have been just another collaboration between them and Mike was unaware (or didn't initially care) that the track would go to Redwood.

Considering that Brian had just written the stunningly gorgeous lyrics to time to get alone without the help of Mr. Love, I wouldn't put it past him to have written the Darling lyrics by himself. 
109  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Redwood- tell everything you know! on: April 05, 2011, 11:55:16 AM
I also wonder why Brian re-used "Thinking about you baby" for "Darlin" and then went back to the original with American Spring. Not that there's anything wrong with it, I love all three versions, but it seems kinda odd. How came he up with that idea?

Didn't he explain this is in that weird long interview with Diane Brian did to promote the spring album?  I seem to recall that it was Diane's idea, who must have remembered the song from the first time, and that Brian just went along with it?  Someone correct me if I'm wrong. 
110  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Would you rather ... Smile Sessions! on: March 31, 2011, 07:45:18 AM
You know, that's something I've often wondered. Stephen Desper described the situation as it happened in 1971: "About thirty minutes into the mix, Brian ... came bursting into the studio ... excitedly proclaiming that we should stop the mix and add just 'one more part' to the ending." The famous tag vocals were then "added postscript, and doubled at the last minute, as if always in his mind from conception, but heretofore forgotten, or perhaps suppressed." (emphasis mine)

While it's all conjecture on Stephen Desper's part, it does seem like an obvious question: was this a spur of the moment Brian idea or was it something he had tucked away since 1966? I wish someone would ask him, if they haven't already. Then again, his answer would probably just add more confusion to the matter.

Maybe they were actually part of the lyrics to Child is the Father of the Man?  Hence them not being sung or mentioned during the Surf's up demo, and then, when Brian realizes that Carl Wilson has adapted a second smile song for the outro of surf's up, he thinks to himself: well, might as well use the proper lyrics! 
111  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Interesting home made mixtape: 1s 2s As Bs on: March 27, 2011, 08:58:48 PM
This mix would get way more interesting if you included a wider range of countries (though I get how this would require more work than just the wikipedia page).  For example, (using a broader-based wikipedia search), Then I Kissed Her was #2 in South Africa, Sweden, and the Netherlands, (b-side Mountain of Love.)  Surfin USA and when I Grow Up to Be a Man, were #1 in Canada, California Girls was no. 2 in Rhodesia and Canada.    Tears in the Morning was #1 in South Africa wasn't it?  Amusement Parks USA only made #3 in Japan, but it does make one wonder what exactly a list of Beach Boys hits in Japan would look like.  Also, didn't Surfin Down the Swannee River make #1 in Sweden?...not that that nec. counts.

Has anyone ever made a beach boys discog. that listed chart positions for a larger group of countries?
112  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Be with Me on: March 22, 2011, 12:26:51 PM
Seems likely enough to me.  I have a feeling that if Never Learn not to Love hadn't been released rather prominently on a Beach Boy's record (and even performed on TV!) we'd never have heard of it.  I have a feeling those Manson tapes are locked in a vault so deep they might as well "cease to exist." 
113  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Add vocals only where lyrics are of 1960's vintage on: March 20, 2011, 05:44:29 PM
I'm generally against adding modern "updates" to old recordings, no matter who does it, but you know what really changed my mind?  The version of Holy Man on bambu.  That record proved to me that it is possible to recapture the spirit of a song or a moment to provide the fans with a new piece of music expanding on and giving tribute to the old.  So in that spirit, I hope there is new recording done for this box set, because I'd love to hear the Beach Boys, even whats left of them today, give us a new take on some of the lyrics which were written but not recorded in 1966-7.  And I think those songs would belong where Holy Man was: tacked onto the end of the last disc, as a bonus.  To me, that does nothing to compromise the integrity of what the early discs present, it just adds, expands, and pays tribute. 
114  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: SMiLE Boxset - Hidden tracks? on: March 20, 2011, 05:37:42 PM
I think a vocal only of Dennis on You Are My Sunshine would be a breathtaking hidden track....if only it were possible.  I understand the only mix with his vocal was found on an acetate, right?

I hadn't realized that those vocals were only on an acetate, but oddly enough, knowing it gives me a lot of hope for un-booted stuff, because there you have a real life example of a missing lead vocal sourced only from an acetate.  In what universe would it make sense to delete that vocal off the multi-track?  But if that acetate had remained in the hands of, say, Bruce or Al or Van Dyke Park's ex wife, all we'd have now would be a sort of incomplete sounding instrumental take and a vague rumor that maybe Dennis was supposed to sing it...  It's a weirdly optimistic moment for me!
115  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian in studio this week on: March 02, 2011, 06:58:51 PM
Nope. Count me in too. Where's the rock and roll album?! We need Moogs, bathrobes, coke, songs about Roller Skating Children and Little Tomboys and cigs getting thrown into the toilet!

I don't mean to sound mean-spirited, and I know you were partially joking, but don't you think for a person's gone through everything Brian's gone through, doesn't it seem a bit off to playfully suggest that you'd prefer his music if he returned to coke and if it was coming from what was clearly an incredibly miserable and destructive place?  I love Adult Child for its honesty and humor, but it's also a really tragic record, and I hope Brian Wilson is never in a position to make another one like it.  Brian should make music for his grand kids, god knows he deserves to make whatever music he wants.
116  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: New Beach Boys release will make you 'SMiLE' on: March 02, 2011, 01:50:17 AM
God Everyday I come on here thinking "is today the day? is today the official announcement?"

Also, can we talk about what the title "I Love To Say Da Da" means? Does anybody have any idea where that came from? It's been pointed out that it has the letters LSD in order, but that seems like a stretch because of the fact that there are two 'd's. The title had to have had some meaning to Brian, some reason why it piqued his interest. What is Da Da?

Dada was also a major contemporary art movement in the earlier part of the 20th century, enough so that, especially given the circles he was floating in at the time, Brian may have known the reference.  The dada movement was about humor, rejecting the violence and insanity of modern life, and deconstructing ideas about what art was supposed to be.  Duchamp's famous urinal is a good example.  Smile is not exactly dadaist, but its a reference that would make a degree of sense. 
117  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Soul Searchin'-Lets set the facts straight! on: February 27, 2011, 03:33:16 PM
I find it pretty easy to see where Carl was coming from.  He wanted the band to be able to hang out in the studio, put together an album project, begin to mend some bridges.  Perhaps he wanted to begin to repair his own and the band's relationship with Brian.  All of this is a pretty delicate project, and it's not hard to understand why the last thing you'd want to throw into the mix would be artistic ambition, that elusive factor that had led to so many interpersonal problems in the past for the BBs.  Were I in Carl's place, I think I would have picked stars and stripes too.  As sad as it can seem in retrospect, wouldn't you pick family over art in the end too?
118  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The Reality: The Beach Boys & Brian don't need avid fans on: February 16, 2011, 07:19:43 PM
Let's be real here.  I like the current incarnation(s) of the Beach Boys.  I like Brian's solo stuff, Al and Mike's live shows.  I think a smile release would be exciting.  But at the end of the day, I'm in it for the records.  Those records were made 30-50 years ago.  The people who made them are transformed almost beyond recognition.  But those records, on vinyl, on CD, on computers and mp3 players, from Surfer Girl to Love You, will be around until the end of time.  Certainly for the rest of my life.  So I'm not worried about anything when it comes to the Beach Boys.  I have the music, frankly, and that's more than enough, more than we ever deserved from these 6 or 8 hardworkin' guys.
119  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Dennis and shaun on: February 02, 2011, 08:02:03 PM
I don't want you getting tired of me asking questions. You all seem to know just about everything. Why did Dennis get with shaun? He knew she was mike love's daughter. Did he love her, or was it to get back at mike? What's the story there.

You should check out Gaines bio if you haven't already, if I recall it had a lot of answers to these kinds of questions...almost to the point of being distasteful at times...although its been a very long time since I've actually read it myself...
120  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian in studio this week on: February 02, 2011, 07:56:36 PM
And I always think of that amazing youtube clip of Brian listening to Ronnie Spectors version of Don't Worry Baby and looking like he's just gone to heaven. 

From the 2000 Tour Video? The one where she's sitting next to him and starts singing, and he gets up quickly and starts going downstairs? If anything, it looked like he was annoyed!

I think there' s a different clip though where someone plays it for him...that might be what you're referring to.

Also, I was under the impression that the Gershwin album was more or less a Brian Wilson production.  And (imho) a brilliant one at that! 
121  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian in studio this week on: February 02, 2011, 05:10:57 PM
I should have commented that he re-record "The Monkey's Uncle" with Annette!

Sadly, I think Annette is in far from good health... but I wish he would rerecord all these disney songs with outside vocalists.  Not that his Gershwin vocals weren't wonderful, but listening to the old phil spector record with Darlene Love singing Zip a dee  doo da the other day made me think how great it would sound to have Brian Wilson produce a record of Disney songs sung by people like Darlene Love, Ronnie Spector, and LaLa Brooks.  I feel like it might energize Brian too, to be producing other artists.  And I always think of that amazing youtube clip of Brian listening to Ronnie Spectors version of Don't Worry Baby and looking like he's just gone to heaven. 
122  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Let Him Run Wild on: January 28, 2011, 04:52:52 PM
That was a really gorgeous cover! 
123  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Songs that would have been on SMiLE in '67... on: January 27, 2011, 05:18:41 PM
It's interesting that no one is mentioning that I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night were labeled on the session sheets as belonging to I'mIn Great Shape.  I think it's a big mistake to simply dismiss that listing as an error, without any evidence that it was in fact erroneous.  Why couldn't the track consist, at least in part, of the "great shape" lyrics, followed by the tape explosion, I Wanna Be Around and the woodshop noises?  That order sounds to me like it works, and it was in that sequence on BWPS.  Without other evidence, it seems to me that is by far the most likely possibility.

As for the Barnyard Suite, I agree with the earlier poster that it was most likely the same as The Old Master Painter--meaning Barnyard, followed by The Old Master Painter, followed by You Are My Sunshine, followed by the cantina fade with YAMS overdubs.  Of course, Brian later used the cantina fade for H&V, so he may well have abandoned this track altogether, but I think the above sequence probably was used at one point in the process.

Not questioning, just curious: what is the evidence for barnyard going to old master painter?
124  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Mike Love wanted the Beach Boys to finish SMiLE on: January 26, 2011, 07:13:57 PM
I'll be an optimist and say: we know the parks, bruce, and al acetates exist.  Alan Boyd, in his own words, has been "working with Brother Records and Capitol Records to organize, catalog, and preserve the mass of vintage Beach Boys tapes in their archives."   Do you really think that the person employed to document the bands career and put their library and archive into shape hasn't asked the band members themselves what important tapes they might have?  And that those band members would then say lie or refuse access to their own archivist?!  I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the far most likely scenario is that there exist a number of additional smile materials safely copied and locked away (perhaps next to those infamous manson sessions?) in a deep vault miles below the capital tower in the heart of Los Angeles, and awaiting (to be blunt) the passing on of the remaining participants before they will see the light of day.  We know acetates exist.  The incentives to preserve them are huge, the incentives to tell fans about them when they're not going to be released anytime soon anyway: much smaller. 

Just my opinion.   
125  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Thread for various insignificant questions that don't deserve their own thread! on: January 25, 2011, 07:45:07 PM
When Brian said he destroyed the Smile tapes, who else thinks that what he really meant is that he erased all of the test/final vocal takes, so that it would be impossible for other people to figure out how to finish it without him?
Small problm wth that theory. If Brian erased all the finished vocal takes, then he himself would not be able to finish it. Let's assume for a minute that Brian had never had any type of drug addiction or mental health problems whatsoever, and that his voice today is the same as it was in 1964. Even in the absolute best possible circumstances, I doubt that Brian would be able to remmber every minute detail of the original versions in order to recreate it today.

I think its a compelling theory, because so many songs were missing lead vocals: cabinessence, do you like worms, child is the father of the man, etc., but ultimately I think there is a much more obvious explanation.  Brian was waiting to record lead vocals until he had decided on the order of the sections and assembled them.  Cabinessence, for example, wasn't just missing a lead vocal, it also needed to be assembled from its constituent pieces (Carl did both for 20/20).  Child is the Father of the Man had a finished backing track mix, but wasn't it just a test mix?  Do you like worms doesnt totally fit this theory, because he could have easily recorded those verse vocals, but Surf's up certainly wasn't assembled (and in fact, it seems that Brian made an effort to ensure that the song was preserved in demo form, perhaps suspecting that it would never be finished in any other.)  I'm in Great Shape/Barnyard suite etc., was far from assembled, and lead vocals were probably waiting on an assembly and an order for the different sections.  Vegetables, Wonderful, and You were my Sunshine all had lead vocals, as did Windchimes and Heroes.  So I'd say the evidence for that theory is pretty thin, since so many lead vocals were not wiped, and since the songs without lead vocals were still in sections for the most part.  The most frustrating one for me is Child is the Father of the Man, because I just can't shake the sense that it would have had a melody and lead vocal along the lines of the songs from pet sounds: that it would have felt more song like.  But the chances of that melody being recovered, if it ever existed, seem pretty miniscule, and I doubt that's because Brian wiped them...far more likely that he never wrote them, even if he intended to.   
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